Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: How do I sign IRS forms?

Expand Messages
  • bowman7a
    Let s first start with the form on its face, and the instructions that accompany it. The IRS claims that this Form is required to be provided to all payors of
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 4, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Let's first start with the form on its face, and the instructions
      that accompany it.
      The IRS claims that this Form is required to be provided to all
      payors of amounts which exceed $600 for the year for payee TIN
      certification, or that the payor is to "backup withhold" 31% of the
      remuneration paid.

      The Form states on its face in the upper right hand corner, "Do not
      send to the IRS"
      Since there is no law which absolutely requires that a U.S. Citizen
      register with the Social Security Administration, and thus be
      assigned a number, there can be, and is, no law requiring the
      providing of a number to a payor.
      This is proved by:

      26 CFR § 301.6109-1(d)

      26 U.S.C. § 6041(a)

      26 CFR § 1.6041-6

      26U.S.C. § 6041A(f)(1)

      26 CFR 1.6041A-1(a) (for a pdf copy click here)



      This legal position is also proved by the fact that there is no
      Office of Management and Budget (OMB) control number on the form.
      In 1980, the Paperwork Reduction Act required that all Executive
      Agencies, including the IRS, were required to submit all Forms
      required to be completed by U.S. Citizens to the OMB for approval,
      along with the citation of the law which the forms were fulfilling.

      This was so that Citizens would know if the form they were being
      presented with was a legal form that they were required by some law
      to submit, or if it was a form stemming from merely an offhand or
      casual request for which there is no binding legal authority.

      There is no OMB Control number on the W-9, therefore there we know
      that there must be no law requiring the submittal of a number to a
      payor, at least in regard to U.S. Citizens. Therefore, the IRS
      neither has authority to use it as any form of evidence, nor can they
      require that it be sent to them. It appears that the comment in the
      upper right hand corner is an admission of this so that if it was
      sent to them, they have plausible deniability that it was not sent to
      them in accordance with any kind of legal request or demand, under
      any assumed authority.

      As for the claim by the IRS that, if the Form is not provided, the
      payor is to impose backup withholding of 31%, we must examine the
      form. On the form you will see that the person executing this form is
      stating that the number provided by them as theirs is correct,
      under "penalty of perjury". This is what the form requires, yet the
      statute regarding backup withholding for payee certification failure
      (that is, failure to certify that your TIN/EIN/SSN is correct), 26
      U.S.C. § 3406(e)(1), plainly states that the number can only be
      required, by the Secretary, to be provided under penalty of perjury
      in regards to "interest, dividends, patronage dividends, and amount
      subject to broker reporting."

      Obviously this provision of law is restricted in its application. The
      remainder of subsection (e) only covers back-up withholding from the
      use of an incorrect number or a notified underreporting. So, if you
      did not provide an incorrect number, and are not required to provide
      a number "under penalties of perjury" pursuant to this section, or
      the payor has not been notified of an underreporting, can the backup
      withholding in this section of law legally apply?

      In order to answer that question we must have the following
      components, that we will simultaneously reveal are missing:
      First there must be a "manner required" by which a number must be
      submitted (which there is not in regards to U.S. Citizens as they are
      not by law subject to the Social Security Act and cannot be compelled
      to possess or apply for an SSN/TIN).

      Second, there has to be a "failure" to provide a number, which there
      cannot be as there is no law requiring a U.S. Citizen to be subject
      to the Social Security Act, to then be required to have a number, to
      fail to provide. The IRS has failed to provide the OMB with a law
      requiring U.S. Citizens to provide numbers on the W-9. We doubt that
      they will any time soon.

      Third, there has to be a "reportable payment" pursuant to 26 U.S.C. §
      3406(b)(1).

      Fourth, in order to have a reportable payment, there must be a
      payment that is "required" to be submitted to the IRS on a return, as
      set forth in 26 U.S.C. § 3406(b)(2) & (3).

      So what happens if a return is not required to be made?
      The two main sections of law requiring the filing of a return as
      cited by 26 U.S.C. § 3406(b)(2) & (3) that apply to most people
      are §§ 6041 and 6041A . The first and easiest section of law to deal
      with is § 6041.

      If you have read the law, you will see a complete absence of any
      requirement by § 6041 for the payee to provide a TIN/SSN/EIN. This
      eliminates § 6041 from being a law that requires the payee to provide
      a TIN/SSN/EIN, therefore, § 3406(a)(1)(A) backup withholding has a
      difficult time applying to this particular reportable payment. (NOTE:
      A regulation can not legally expand the meaning of the words in the
      statute, thus any requirement in the regulation for a number is
      beyond the statutory authority.)

      The regulations for this section (26 CFR § 1.6041-6 ) concurs with
      the requirement of the name and address of the recipient of the
      remuneration to be on the form. Still there is no requirement that an
      identifying number be placed on the form pursuant to this regulation.
      Instead, the regulation defers the requirement to 26 U.S.C. § 6109,
      which alludes to a prior legal requirement (26 CFR § 301.6109-1(b)).
      This section of the regulations will be reviewed in detail later in
      this article, but at this time we will make some comments regarding
      26 U.S.C. § 6109. The most important thing to point out about this
      statute is that the law presumes or assumes that the person whom the
      return is to be made on has a TIN to begin with. Since subsection (d)
      states that the SSN of an individual is to be their TIN, where is the
      legal requirement of U.S. Citizens to have such a number in the first
      place, so as to then provide it? (See our SSA article)

      Also, the law is constructed upon, and is therefore dependent upon, a
      prior or pre-existing requirement that a person provide an
      identifying number to a person making a return regarding them. This
      law assumes at subsections (a), (a)(2), and (h)(3) that there is a
      legal requirement, so that one must provide the assumed/presumed
      number, as set forth in a specific regulation as required in a
      statute.

      Where is the regulation requiring the number on the return?
      Is it us, or are you also seeing this search for the regulatory
      requirement to disclose a TIN to be circular between 26 CFR §§ 1.6041-
      6, 26 U.S.C. § 6109, and 26 CFR § 301.6109-1?

      It is remarkable to note, in subsection (c), that the Secretary is
      only given authority to require information to be given in the
      assignment process, which is obviously set forth in the Social
      Security Act, as the SSN for individuals is to be the TIN. Still, the
      Secretary has not been given authority to assign numbers to any
      person under this law, just require specific information of those in
      the application process. (See the SSA article) Therefore, there is
      still no law enacted by the authority of the Congress that requires
      the assignment of a social security number card to U.S. Citizens.

      As our argument stands, "Please show us the statute which forces, by
      the Rule of law and power of our Government, application,
      registration, and assignment without the voluntary act of
      application?"

      The next law is § 6041A, and if you examine subsection (a)(2) there
      is no requirement that the payor provide a number to the IRS
      regarding such returns. Since this is not all that is located in this
      subsection, I must point out that the return is to be made according
      to the "forms or regulations" set forth by the Secretary. (NOTE: The
      regulations are law, not the forms. This is a well-determined fact.
      Also, how do we know which Form is required to be issued according to
      this statute when there are no regulations?) Subsection (f)(1)
      appears to be an after thought, as the entirety of § 6041A
      (otherwise it would be §6042) states that the payee must provide his
      identification number upon request of the payor, and that the number
      is required to be included on the return pursuant to subparagraph (2).

      By what authority does the law assume that the payee has an
      identifying number?
      Nevertheless, the statute says that the number will only be required
      to be provided (assuming there is an identifying number) pursuant to
      the requirements of the regulation the Secretary promulgates. So, we
      must now go to 26 CFR and find a regulation for 6041A, but we cannot
      as there are neither any Temporary nor any Permanent regulations for
      this law. Thus, there is no requirement under the internal revenue
      laws for a person to provide an identifying number to a payor
      pursuant to 26 CFR § 6041A, therefore, backup withholding pursuant to
      § 3406(a)(1)(A) cannot apply as there is no manner required by law to
      provide a number.

      On the other hand, there is a "Proposed regulation" for § 6041A at 26
      CFR § 1.6041A-1 (for a pdf copy click here). It has been proposed
      since 1986 and it reveals that no return is required to be filed
      pursuant to § 6041A , if the remuneration paid is "excludable" from
      gross income pursuant to a section of the internal revenue laws, if
      the payee informs the payor of this fact and the payor does not know
      the facts to be otherwise. Therefore, if the payee provides a
      statement under penalty of perjury, to the payor, that the money paid
      to the payee is remuneration excluded from gross income, there is no
      requirement by law for a return to be made. Therefore, backup
      withholding would not apply, as the payment is not a payment that
      requires a return pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 3406(b)(3).

      It is apparent that back-up withholding can only be assessed against
      a person who is required to provide a social security number "under
      penalties of perjury"(a non-resident alien), has lied when he claimed
      to have provided a correct number "under penalties of perjury",
      and/or is a non-resident alien who is required to possess a social
      security number, who is thereby subject to taxation under Subtitle C
      of the IRC, "Employment Taxes" and the income tax, and has not
      provided a social security number as required by 26 U.S.C. § 3406(a)
      (1). This must be the case, as it is well established in our SSA
      article that the Social Security Act and Subtitle C are not
      necessarily applicable to U.S. Citizens, and § 3406 being in Subtitle
      C, Employment Taxes, is wholly dependent upon the person in question
      being subject to the Social Security Act.

      We must note at this time that 26 U.S.C. § 3406(h) states that the
      money that is backup withheld is to be treated as taxes withheld
      under § 3402. This would indicate that no amount of money may be
      withheld under backup withholding without a hand delivered letter
      from the Local District Director, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 7512 and
      its regulations, and not the whimsy of any low level IRS Official,
      mere publication, or unsigned computer form letter.

      In an attempt to close this article, it would not be fair to leave
      out the only point that most tax professionals love to make when
      sending out a payor's demand for identifying numbers. I must point
      out that even if a return was required, which is not always the case,
      the only penalty is in Proposed Regulation 26 CFR § 1.6041A-1(h).

      I suppose it is a good thing that there are no actual regulations
      regarding the provision of the number for § 6041A. Then again the
      section of law cited in the proposed regulation at subsection (h) is
      IRC (U.S.C.) § 6676 which has been repealed. Even IRC § 6724, which
      was indicated by the EEOC as the section of law now carrying the
      penalty for the payor not providing the number they have, lacks any
      regulatory requirement that a payee provide a TIN to a payor, as the
      penalty claimed in its regulation 26 CFR § 301.6724-1(e)(2) is cited
      as 26 U.S.C. § 6723.

      This law imposes a $50 penalty for not providing a number when
      requested to do so. The specifics of such a circumstance are set
      forth in 26 CFR § 301.6723-1(a)(4)(c). This penalty is wholly
      dependent upon the requirement of the regulations of 26 U.S.C. § 6109
      (26 CFR § 301.6109-1) where there is no requirement that anyone be
      forced or required by a payor to provide a social security number to
      the requestor, only that the payor make the request for the number as
      so required (subsection (c)).

      It is a fact of law that there is a requirement in subsection (b)
      that U.S. persons (not identified as Citizens) furnish their number
      if "required" on a return, upon request. This assumes that the U.S.
      person has a number, which we have shown in our SSA article to not be
      required of U.S. Citizens.

      Although subsection (b) mentions a penalty, the requirement to
      provide the number is phrased to be dependent upon a pre-existing or
      outside requirement for disclosure relating to the return. The only
      foundation for such a requirement can only be in the specific
      statutes regarding the specific returns, as all authority proceeds
      from that point for the Secretary to implement.

      So, who is this U.S. person? Is it possible that a U.S. person is not
      a Citizen?
      It is apparent that the U.S. Citizen has the right to not participate
      in the benefits of the social security program as set forth in
      subsection (d), but they must obtain a number if they are "required"
      to furnish a number pursuant to subsection (b). Still, subsection (b)
      does not take the responsibility for creating the requirement
      referenced in (d).

      When examining the alleged requirement chasing itself between
      subsections (b)) and (d) of 301.6109-1, which came first, the
      requirement to apply for a number to provide it for return purposes,
      or the requirement to provide a number and thus the need to apply for
      it?

      Is it any wonder that the author researcher told you that his head
      was spinning when we began this article? Did you think that he was
      kidding?

      Is it us, or are you also seeing this search for the regulatory
      requirement to obtain a taxpayer identification number to be
      circular, and simultaneously dependent upon a disclosure requirement
      that does not exist?

      If there was a law requiring that one have a number, why must there
      be a law allegedly requiring that the person so required make a
      voluntary application for that which would then be forcibly issued?
      Can the $50 penalty or the backup withholding (pursuant to 26 U.S.C.
      § 3406(a)) be legally and lawfully applied to the U.S. Citizen (who
      does not have to have a number) if the person making a return decides
      that the Citizen is required to have the return issued on him,
      despite the fact that § 6041(a) & (c) does not require that he
      provide a number and therefore there is no requirement that a number
      be placed on the return as set forth in the words of the statute?

      Can the $50 penalty or the backup withholding (pursuant to 26 U.S.C.
      § 3406(a)) be legally and lawfully applied to the U.S. Citizen (who
      does not have to have a number) if the person making the return
      decides that the Citizen is required to have the return issued on
      him, despite the fact that § 6041A has no regulation requiring that
      the Citizen provide a number to be placed on the return, or ignores
      the statement by the Citizen that there is no return required as the
      remuneration is excluded from "Gross income"?

      This should be a very simple question to answer "NO" to, when the
      facts show that the Statutes 6041 and 6041A have either failed to
      give the Secretary authority to require that a number be provided to
      the payor, or the Secretary has not promulgated a regulation
      requiring the providing of a TIN.

      Look at the bottom sections of 26 CFR § 301.6109-1(c). The original
      intent by the framers of this nation was that the bills and debts
      would be shouldered upon the foreigners sending money, coming to
      work, or establishing businesses in this land. With this still being
      the actual scheme of the wording of the present tax laws, why is it
      that it has not been until December 31, 1996 that the Secretary of
      the Treasury now shows some interest in numbering the non-resident
      aliens in this country and tracking the money they are earning in our
      free domestic market, a market purchased and preserved with the blood
      of those in America's military history?

      Please make use of the Political Action letters we have composed for
      your use, so that our Government Officials will be asked the real
      hard questions, and be informed that the People of America know the
      truth behind the lies now, and we will not go away…We are AMERICA,
      and we want corrective action taken regarding this circus of
      obfuscation.

      This present method of operation, by our government, veiled in
      obscurity and perpetuated by an organizational lack of accountability
      has placed the duty of correcting these problems in our hands.
      Rightfully so, as the choice we make with our hands moves the
      vehicles known as our Government Officials.

      Now is the time to fine tune the law to eliminate these much abused
      loopholes and double speak exposed in this article, and set free the
      U.S. Citizens who believe in freedom, independence, and enterprise,
      so that they may be left alone and free to prosper.
    • scott
      John, and to all, It doesn t matter one way or the other what you do or do not do, these people simply do not follow the law. First off the Damn IRS is not
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 5, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        John, and to all,
        It doesn't matter one way or the other what you do or do not do, these
        people simply do not follow the law. First off the Damn IRS is not part of
        the United States Government and are a Corporation contracted with Financial
        Management Systems which is the true Delegate of the Secretary of Treasure
        to Collect all Debts for the United States including delinquent taxes. The
        IRS has limited contractual responsibilities to FMS which currently another
        patriot is trying to find out just what those responsibilities are for fact,
        and with any hope at all will know by the end of this month. I have always
        signed my tax returns with "Signed under duress and protest" since I was a
        kid, it didn't make any difference.
        I agree with you all that people are being abused in the courts and sent to
        jail for laws that do not exist. The only way I can see to solve this
        problem is to RICO the JUDGES, MAGISTRATES, ATTORNEYS, AND BAR ASSOCIATIONS.
        We must teach the people how to file and be successful at filing these RICO
        suits. This will tie up the courts and start removing and punishing the
        forces that are not following the Common Law and Constitutional Laws of this
        country.
        Admittedly I am not quite there myself and have been taking the time to
        learn and have spent huge sums of monies on legal books, tapes, and time
        researching. I fly around the country attending seminars to learn and hear
        what others opinions are. Some are worth the trip and expense and some are
        not. The bottom line is-IT IS ONLY YOU AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE that will be
        defending your butt in any court. All the little things won't matter if you
        are not aware and can not use the FRof Civil Procedures, FRof Criminal
        Procedures, Your local Court Rules of Civil and Criminal Procedures, and
        your local court rules. It's like prying the mouth of the Lyon open to
        de-tooth it, alot of us are getting bit time and time again, some with
        severity and some not, but none the less we are getting bit and we are not
        getting any teeth pulled. Studying the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and
        the Federalist Papers is a great insight to knowing your rights as an
        American. Learning from other Patriots what works and what doesn't is
        admirable qualities that most people do not want to take the time to learn
        or deal with, they are simply to scared to do anything and are in consent
        hope things will clear up and go better for them. In other words someone
        will come up with the magical silver bullet and our world will be saved.
        You and the rest of those reading this post know this is not how it works.
        Reality is that Bob Schultz like him or not. has gotten the grass roots
        movement going on the "Answer the questions on the Redress of Grievances"
        it is nation wide. Now the question is can we as patriots get behind such a
        movement and add to it the additional things that need to be done;
        impeachment of Bush, Congressmen and women, Senators, that are not abiding
        by the laws of our Constitution? Will WE THE PEOPLE (not affiliated with We
        the People of Colorado) let us join in and will they adapt and grow beyond
        the one thing they are doing right now? Can we get the Millions of Patriots
        together to fight for our rights in a collective bargaining unit to go in
        strength to the Capitol and oust the criminals and crooks and replace them
        with GOD Serving Servants of the People, for the People? Can we start one
        here in Colorado that will be able to remove Judges and Magistrates and
        Cannon those that are not elected to the point they are removed for the good
        of the public? I can tell you that as wild and crazy as it sounds Rick
        Stanley here in Denver along with the PACT is making a difference. It is
        real and is a grass roots movement to protect the pact members from corrupt
        courts, criminal JBT's, and defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights of
        those members of the Pact.
        As for the IRS. I gave them warning along with any JBT's that I would meet
        force with force should they try and commit crimes upon my family, myself,
        and my fellow pact members. I have filed complaints and evidence,
        documents, etc. in the area of some 5,500 papers with TIGA, IRS, DOJ, Etc.
        only to get back B.S. responses and especially TIGA who can and won't do a
        damn thing. SO WORDS AND THEIR LAWS do not work, what else is left to the
        American but, Self Defense and Protecting his GOD GIVEN RIGHTS.
        Good Day.
        Scott Williams
        Denver, Colorado
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John" <genman_2000@...>
        To: <tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:23 PM
        Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Re: How do I sign IRS forms?


        >
      • Russell Mortland
        U.S.C. Title 28 1746(1) Without Prejudice ... From: scott [mailto:scott@wsgsite.com] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 1:21 AM To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 5, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Message

          U.S.C. Title 28 1746(1) Without Prejudice

          -----Original Message-----
          From: scott [mailto:scott@...]
          Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 1:21 AM
          To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] How do I sign IRS forms?

          GO to WWW.givemeliberty.org and download the w9 on their web site.  Also remember the 1099 is a class 5 gift tax and you certainly didn't receive a gift of money when you earned it did you?
          Scott Williams
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: KnJ
          Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:23 PM
          Subject: [tips_and_tricks] How do I sign IRS forms?

          Hi,

           

             Can someone recommend to me the best way that I can sign this W-9 form and not be held liable for perjury?  I’m not interested in giving my social security number anymore to the Section 8 program so that they can report to the IRS tenant rents received during the year. I was under the impression that there was a way to sign your name and then put above it a particular UCC Law/Article with reference to reserving my rights some how, thereby canceling out the statement above my signature that says: “Under penalty of perjury I certify: that my SSN is correct etc…”. 

           

            Rather than starting a fight with the Section 8 program people about the undisputable fact that I am within my rights NOT to have to fill out the form I thought that I would simply fill it out just so that there is no bureaucratic slow down in the receipt of my rent payments.  Does anyone know what people do with these W9 forms anyway (they are even in closing documents for required execution)?  Do they actually send them into the IRS for certification or are they simply a scare tactic to ensure that the correct SSN is given?

           

          Thanks Much!

          Keith



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          tips_and_tricks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          tips_and_tricks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • scott
          GO to WWW.givemeliberty.org and download the w9 on their web site. Also remember the 1099 is a class 5 gift tax and you certainly didn t receive a gift of
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 5, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            GO to WWW.givemeliberty.org and download the w9 on their web site.  Also remember the 1099 is a class 5 gift tax and you certainly didn't receive a gift of money when you earned it did you?
            Scott Williams
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: KnJ
            Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:23 PM
            Subject: [tips_and_tricks] How do I sign IRS forms?

            Hi,

             

               Can someone recommend to me the best way that I can sign this W-9 form and not be held liable for perjury?  I’m not interested in giving my social security number anymore to the Section 8 program so that they can report to the IRS tenant rents received during the year. I was under the impression that there was a way to sign your name and then put above it a particular UCC Law/Article with reference to reserving my rights some how, thereby canceling out the statement above my signature that says: “Under penalty of perjury I certify: that my SSN is correct etc…”. 

             

              Rather than starting a fight with the Section 8 program people about the undisputable fact that I am within my rights NOT to have to fill out the form I thought that I would simply fill it out just so that there is no bureaucratic slow down in the receipt of my rent payments.  Does anyone know what people do with these W9 forms anyway (they are even in closing documents for required execution)?  Do they actually send them into the IRS for certification or are they simply a scare tactic to ensure that the correct SSN is given?

             

            Thanks Much!

            Keith



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            tips_and_tricks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.