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Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

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  • Robert Riggins
    I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract was sold to
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 4, 2003
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      I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION.  A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
       
      -------Original Message-------
       
      Date: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:35:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
       
      Verification is that they have an account number and
      your address. Having statements of a debt also
      qualifies under verification.
       
      Validation is that they have your signature on a
      contract. If it is a collection agency, that you see
      the contract between them and the original creditor
      plus the original contract that you signed.
       
      The burden of proof is much greater with a validation.
       
       
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    • gary
      This is a nice theory but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something like They
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 5, 2003
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        This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
        you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
        like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
        plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
        cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
        contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.

        What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
        of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
        what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
        under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
        list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
        written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
        a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
        wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
        terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
        any interest in the account.

        Gary




        -----Original Message-----
        From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
        To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


        I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
        CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
        was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
        unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
        CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      • Richard Johnson
        On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote: I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 5, 2003
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          On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote:
          " I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
          " CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the
          " contract " was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it
          would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign.

          You presumably did sign a note. Why would the collection agency not be a
          holder in due course?

          --
          Richard Johnson richard@...
          Cuis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cui bono?
        • Robert Riggins
          This is not theory! I too help people with collection agencies. Title 15 Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly. What your sying is
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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            This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
            If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
            And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
            Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
             
            This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
            you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
            like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
            plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
            cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
            contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
             
            What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
            of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
            what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
            under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
            list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
            written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
            a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
            wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
            terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
            any interest in the account.
             
            Gary
             
             
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
            Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
            Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
             
             
            I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
            CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
            was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
            unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
            CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
             
             
             
             
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          • Robert Riggins
            Simply because I have NO CONTRACT with them. ... From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:36:57 PM To:
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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              Simply because I have NO CONTRACT with them. 
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:36:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
               
              On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote:
              " I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
              " CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the
              " contract " was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it
                would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign.
               
              You presumably did sign a note. Why would the collection agency not be a
              holder in due course?
               
              --
              Richard Johnson richard@...
              Cuis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cui bono?
               
               
               
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            • gary
              Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that spells it out very clearly . The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very clearly".  The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.
                 
                If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.
                 
                Gary
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:26 PM
                To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
                If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
                And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
                Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                 
                This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
                 
                What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                any interest in the account.
                 
                Gary
                 
                 
                 
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                 
                 
                I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                 
                 
                 
                 
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                ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                 
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              • Ringo
                You may disagree, but if the original debt has a provision that it may be sold, the court will recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                  You may disagree, but if the original debt has a
                  provision that it may be sold, the court will
                  recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                  individually bought the account!
                  --- Robert Riggins <bobert@...> wrote:
                  > I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A
                  > collection agency
                  > CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and
                  > them. Even if the contract
                  > was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid
                  > because it would be a
                  > unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                  > CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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                • scott
                  Contact WWW.equalizerjj@netscape.net this is what he does for a living. His name is James. He can explain the whole enchilada to you. Scott ... From: knj_inc
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                    Contact WWW.equalizerjj@... this is what he does for a living.  His name is James.  He can explain the whole enchilada to you.
                    Scott
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: knj_inc
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:50 PM
                    Subject: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                    Hello,

                     

                       I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and expectation of the words “Validation” or “Verification” is.   When these terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof of a debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer generated accounts and other receipts etc..  I am trying to determine where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court case references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive and ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?

                     

                    Thanks,

                     

                    KEITH©

                    "Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught falsehoods;
                           And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool"  - Plato.

                     



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                  • scott
                    You must ask for a formal viewing of the documents called bill of sale, amount and your contract assignment over to the new loan. You are only obligated in
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                      You must ask for a formal viewing of the documents called bill of sale,
                      amount and your contract assignment over to the new loan. You are only
                      obligated in worse case to pay what the purchaser paid for your contract
                      with the original firm. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye but,
                      how can one be a holder in due course if you have not acknowledged and come
                      to an agreement of the minds with a new collector of your debt. You have no
                      contract with the purchaser of your debt until such time as you acknowledge
                      such by sending in a payment, this can be construed as agreement with the
                      new terms of an existing contract. The other thing I would seriously look
                      at is where is your first right of purchase on your commercial note prior to
                      offering sent out to others? Getting the idea that you are being used and
                      over charged past the legal interest rate in your state on your loan amount!
                      Scott Williams
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Ringo" <grabthering@...>
                      To: <tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 7:19 PM
                      Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


                      > You may disagree, but if the original debt has a
                      > provision that it may be sold, the court will
                      > recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                      > individually bought the account!
                      > --- Robert Riggins <bobert@...> wrote:
                      > > I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A
                      > > collection agency
                      > > CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and
                      > > them. Even if the contract
                      > > was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid
                      > > because it would be a
                      > > unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                      > > CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
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                      > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
                      > http://shopping.yahoo.com
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > tips_and_tricks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Robert Riggins
                      check out section 1692 of Title 15 ... From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                        check out section 1692 of Title 15 
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM
                        Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                         
                        Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very clearly".  The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.
                         
                        If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.
                         
                        Gary
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                        Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:26 PM
                        To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                        This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
                        If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
                        And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
                        Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                         
                        This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                        you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                        like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                        plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                        cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                        contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
                         
                        What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                        of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                        what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                        under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                        list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                        written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                        a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                        wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                        terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                        any interest in the account.
                         
                        Gary
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                        Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                         
                         
                        I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                        CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                        was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                        unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                        CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                         
                         
                         
                         
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                        .


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                      • gary
                        Robert, I have read 1692 many times and have never found anything in there that indicates the purchaser of a debt cannot collect that debt. Specifically where
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 7, 2003
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                          Robert,

                          I have read 1692 many times and have never found anything in there that
                          indicates the purchaser of a debt cannot collect that debt. Specifically
                          where in 1692 do you find that stated and can you cite any court case where
                          this was the finding?


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:49 AM
                          To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


                          check out section 1692 of Title 15

                          -------Original Message-------

                          From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM
                          To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                          Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very
                          clearly". The original contract almost always says the contract is valid
                          for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always
                          take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.

                          If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very
                          much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support
                          that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure
                          would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.

                          Gary
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