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Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

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  • Keith Vogt
    Verification is a legal term which can be found in a law dictionary (verify). A verification is a sworn statement. Validation is defined in FDCPA (15 USC
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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      Verification is a legal term which can be found in a
      law dictionary (verify). A verification is a sworn
      statement.

      Validation is defined in FDCPA (15 USC 1692g) and
      state debt collection statute. Validation is
      verification of the debt.

      To "verify" a debt, the person giving the sworn
      statement must have personal knowledge of the debt.
      Personal knowledge involves the five senses (sight,
      touch, etc.). Reading numbers from a computer screen
      is not personal knowledge that YOU incurred the DEBT.

      To validate certainly involves a notarized (sworn)
      statement. So, if they just send statements, that's
      not it.

      --- knj_inc <knj_inc@...> wrote:
      > Hello,
      >
      >
      >
      > I am trying desperately to understand what the
      > legal meaning and
      > expectation of the words "Validation" or
      > "Verification" is. When these
      > terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to
      > demand proof of a
      > debt these Creditors are erroneously returning
      > copies of computer
      > generated accounts and other receipts etc.. I am
      > trying to determine
      > where is the statutory definition of these terms or
      > are there court case
      > references that can be so used to determine the
      > correct, definitive and
      > ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      >
      > KEITHC
      >
      > "Strange times are these in which we live when old
      > and young are taught
      > falsehoods;
      > And the one man that dares to tell the truth
      > is called at once a
      > lunatic and fool" - Plato.
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • scott
      Validation means that the President of the Company will sign a document attesting to the fact that the debt is legally owed to them by you. Without this they
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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        Validation means that the President of the Company will sign a document attesting to the fact that the debt is legally owed to them by you.  Without this they have not validated anything.  Most creditors destroy the actual document that you signed within the first two years.  If they do not have the actual signed document to produce in court they don't have a legal document is the contention.  Since all loan documents of origin are to be returned to the purchaser once the purchaser has paid in full the note, this verifier's debt release getting back the original document you signed.  Copies without actual wet signature backing up any documents copied or photocopied are worthless as contracts go. 
        Do you live in Denver, Colorado?  If you do email me personally and I will tell you about a seminar we are doing on this very thing this weekend.  There's more involved than above but, it gives you the idea and meaning.
        Scott Williams
        Denver, Colorado
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: knj_inc
        Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:50 PM
        Subject: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

        Hello,

         

           I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and expectation of the words “Validation” or “Verification” is.   When these terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof of a debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer generated accounts and other receipts etc..  I am trying to determine where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court case references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive and ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?

         

        Thanks,

         

        KEITH©

        "Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught falsehoods;
               And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool"  - Plato.

         



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      • Advancepum@aol.com
        You need to demand direct coppies of the documents that you wish to get. I demand first generation copies. here is the letter I give people to send I am in
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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          You need to demand direct coppies of the documents that you wish to get. I demand first generation copies.
          here is the letter I give people to send
          I am in receipt of your unsigned letter dated  ___________ which I just received today and which am taking as a notice of court action  on account #005 067878 I am therefore sending this letter as per the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.  . 
          Pursuant to the Uniform Commercial Code and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act you are hereby required to Produce and Present the Following (all documents sent to me must be certified to be direct copies of the originals):
          1. Please produce and present the contract I signed making me liable for the debt your letter alleges.
          2. Please produce and present signed documents evidencing that you have authority from ____to make this presentment on their behalf.
          3. Please produce and present evidence in the form of signed contracts making me liable for the amount of debt your letter alleges.
          You are to present me with 1st generation copies of all demanded documents.. I will demand originals of all documents refereed to here in court 

          Also Enclosed, please find material for the immediate attention of your or your bank's legal and finance departments.

          This is constructive notice that I am disputing the validity of this alleged debt, and it's originating contract for reasons and causes including but not limited to constructive fraud, fraud on the contract, and fraudulent conveyance.

          This alleged debt will stand invalid and hereby disputed, until the following questions and demand for documentation are satisfactorily addressed by you:

          1.    Is this bank regularly examined by employees of Thrift Supervision?
          2.    Does this bank follow the monetary expansion rules laid out in the Federal Reserve publication 'Modern Money Mechanics'?
          3.    Does this bank employ the 'transaction concept' of money, as revealed in the Federal Reserve Manual named above?
          4.    Did this bank accept some form of 'promissory note' and exchange it for a bank 'liability' to open this particular account?
          5.    Did the bank also raise an 'asset' in the same account when it was opened?
          6.    Did the bank use my signature on the note to raise this asset?
          7.    Is it the bank's policy to return or refund this asset to me?
          8.    Where in the contract was I informed of this use of my signature?
          9.    Please produce certified copies of the initial balance sheets for the account in question.
          10.  Please produce what the bank considers to be the entire promissory note.
          11.  Please produce what the bank considers the entire alleged agreement.
          12   Please produce all contracts which together are construed to make up the entire amount which you are alleging that I owe your client.
          13   Please produce a contract which specifically authorizes you to come after me for this amount.
          You are now informed that if this bank should decide to litigate against me, I will counterclaim for causes including but not limited to constructive fraud, fraud on the contract, and fraudulent conveyance.

          You are now also informed that I allege that the cost and risk in the note was misrepresented and has shifted, as revealed by the money trail.

          I will seek more in discovery.   Please prepare your (or your client's )chief auditor to address the above in interrogatories.    Also, Thrift will have to be subpoenaed as they won't come if I just invite them; they will be deposed as experts.   Thrift has grudgingly confirmed the above in other cases and I do not expect they appreciate that role being thrust on them.

          You are now informed that, having properly challenged and disputed the validity of the alleged 'debt', I require answers to the above, as is due.   Failure to answer is prima fascia evidence of this bank's intent to dodge the issue, and possibly continue fraudulent collection, or post information that would damage me.

          My position is clear: this bank's unconscionable contract of adhesion is void, ab initio, for causes of action including, but not limited to, fraud in the contract.     It will be construed against them as a standard of review.     Failure to discharge the account will be considered continuing acts of fraud, which are actionable.    I will demand the return of my original asset; the bank can't have it both ways, using the initial note as both instrument and funds.

          Our differences are ones of fact, and only a jury may decide them.     I don't believe a jury is going to like what they will discover the bank actually does to them.

          If I do not receive a proper response from you within 30 days, I will assume this matter to be closed by both you and the bank as you are their agents.    Reporting this account as anything but 'discharged', or any further collection effort without satisfying the above will be considered an act of extreme harassment, and may be dealt with accordingly.

          This and all records regarding this case are made and kept as evidence for a jury.

          Notice to the agent is notice to the principal.

          Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
          Very truly yours,

          CAVEAT
          Notice is hereby given that Title 15 U.S.C sec.1692 establishes fair debt collection practices, sub-section (e) of said statute establishes "false or misleading representation", "misleading representations" include the false representation of the "charter" or legal status of any debt. It also makes the threat to take "any action" that can not legally be taken as a "defective practice" I feel it is my obligation now to remind you that you are already in "default" and have acted in bad faith and with now "unclean hands". You have 10 days from receipt of this letter, to respond on a point by point basis under the penalties of perjury. Your failure to respond may be estoppel from proceeding in this matter. If you need more time with which to respond contact me with good cause at the above listed mailing location within the allotted time and an extension may be granted.
          The following "Proof of service" will be completed upon mailing this notice, although it is not possible to complete this one because the envelope is sealed prior to mailing::

          For  proof of service you can do a certified mail or a  Postal Form 3817 Mar 1989 you can get in the post office which costs only $0.90to mail





          Hello,

            I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and expectation of the words “Validation” or “Verification” is.   When these terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof of a debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer generated accounts and other receipts etc..  I am trying to determine where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court case references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive and ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?



        • Ringo
          Verification is that they have an account number and your address. Having statements of a debt also qualifies under verification. Validation is that they have
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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            Verification is that they have an account number and
            your address. Having statements of a debt also
            qualifies under verification.

            Validation is that they have your signature on a
            contract. If it is a collection agency, that you see
            the contract between them and the original creditor
            plus the original contract that you signed.

            The burden of proof is much greater with a validation.


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          • Robert Riggins
            Keith: Verification simply means they (debt collectors) have information such as your name and address, etc. Validation means they the debt collectors must
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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              Keith: Verification simply means they (debt collectors) have information such as your name and address, etc. Validation means they the debt collectors must have a signed contract with the collector and you, which they do not! Bob 
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 04:57:35 PM
              Subject: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
               

              Hello,

               

                 I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and expectation of the words “Validation” or “Verification” is.   When these terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof of a debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer generated accounts and other receipts etc..  I am trying to determine where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court case references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive and ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?

               

              Thanks,

               

              KEITH©

              "Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught falsehoods;
                     And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool"  - Plato.

               



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            • Robert Riggins
              I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract was sold to
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2003
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                I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION.  A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:35:25 PM
                Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                 
                Verification is that they have an account number and
                your address. Having statements of a debt also
                qualifies under verification.
                 
                Validation is that they have your signature on a
                contract. If it is a collection agency, that you see
                the contract between them and the original creditor
                plus the original contract that you signed.
                 
                The burden of proof is much greater with a validation.
                 
                 
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              • gary
                This is a nice theory but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something like They
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 5, 2003
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                  This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                  you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                  like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                  plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                  cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                  contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.

                  What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                  of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                  what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                  under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                  list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                  written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                  a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                  wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                  terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                  any interest in the account.

                  Gary




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                  To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


                  I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                  CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                  was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                  unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                  CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                • Richard Johnson
                  On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote: I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency CANNOT provide a valid
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 5, 2003
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                    On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote:
                    " I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                    " CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the
                    " contract " was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it
                    would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign.

                    You presumably did sign a note. Why would the collection agency not be a
                    holder in due course?

                    --
                    Richard Johnson richard@...
                    Cuis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cui bono?
                  • Robert Riggins
                    This is not theory! I too help people with collection agencies. Title 15 Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly. What your sying is
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                      This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
                      If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
                      And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
                      Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                       
                      This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                      you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                      like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                      plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                      cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                      contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
                       
                      What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                      of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                      what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                      under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                      list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                      written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                      a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                      wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                      terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                      any interest in the account.
                       
                      Gary
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                      Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                       
                       
                      I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                      CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                      was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                      unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                      CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                       
                       
                       
                       
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                    • Robert Riggins
                      Simply because I have NO CONTRACT with them. ... From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:36:57 PM To:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                        Simply because I have NO CONTRACT with them. 
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:36:57 PM
                        Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                         
                        On Saturday 04 October 2003 11:06, Robert Riggins wrote:
                        " I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                        " CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the
                        " contract " was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it
                          would be a unilateral contract of which you did not sign.
                         
                        You presumably did sign a note. Why would the collection agency not be a
                        holder in due course?
                         
                        --
                        Richard Johnson richard@...
                        Cuis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cui bono?
                         
                         
                         
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                      • gary
                        Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that spells it out very clearly . The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                          Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very clearly".  The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.
                           
                          If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.
                           
                          Gary
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                          Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:26 PM
                          To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                          This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
                          If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
                          And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
                          Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                           
                          This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                          you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                          like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                          plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                          cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                          contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
                           
                          What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                          of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                          what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                          under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                          list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                          written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                          a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                          wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                          terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                          any interest in the account.
                           
                          Gary
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                          Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                          Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                           
                           
                          I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                          CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                          was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                          unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                          CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                           
                           
                           
                           
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                        • Ringo
                          You may disagree, but if the original debt has a provision that it may be sold, the court will recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                            You may disagree, but if the original debt has a
                            provision that it may be sold, the court will
                            recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                            individually bought the account!
                            --- Robert Riggins <bobert@...> wrote:
                            > I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A
                            > collection agency
                            > CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and
                            > them. Even if the contract
                            > was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid
                            > because it would be a
                            > unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                            > CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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                          • scott
                            Contact WWW.equalizerjj@netscape.net this is what he does for a living. His name is James. He can explain the whole enchilada to you. Scott ... From: knj_inc
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                              Contact WWW.equalizerjj@... this is what he does for a living.  His name is James.  He can explain the whole enchilada to you.
                              Scott
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: knj_inc
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:50 PM
                              Subject: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                              Hello,

                               

                                 I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and expectation of the words “Validation” or “Verification” is.   When these terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof of a debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer generated accounts and other receipts etc..  I am trying to determine where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court case references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive and ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?

                               

                              Thanks,

                               

                              KEITH©

                              "Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught falsehoods;
                                     And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool"  - Plato.

                               



                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            • scott
                              You must ask for a formal viewing of the documents called bill of sale, amount and your contract assignment over to the new loan. You are only obligated in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                                You must ask for a formal viewing of the documents called bill of sale,
                                amount and your contract assignment over to the new loan. You are only
                                obligated in worse case to pay what the purchaser paid for your contract
                                with the original firm. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye but,
                                how can one be a holder in due course if you have not acknowledged and come
                                to an agreement of the minds with a new collector of your debt. You have no
                                contract with the purchaser of your debt until such time as you acknowledge
                                such by sending in a payment, this can be construed as agreement with the
                                new terms of an existing contract. The other thing I would seriously look
                                at is where is your first right of purchase on your commercial note prior to
                                offering sent out to others? Getting the idea that you are being used and
                                over charged past the legal interest rate in your state on your loan amount!
                                Scott Williams
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Ringo" <grabthering@...>
                                To: <tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 7:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


                                > You may disagree, but if the original debt has a
                                > provision that it may be sold, the court will
                                > recognize it. Your only hope is make them prove they
                                > individually bought the account!
                                > --- Robert Riggins <bobert@...> wrote:
                                > > I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A
                                > > collection agency
                                > > CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and
                                > > them. Even if the contract
                                > > was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid
                                > > because it would be a
                                > > unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                                > > CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                >
                                >
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                              • Robert Riggins
                                check out section 1692 of Title 15 ... From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 6, 2003
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                                  check out section 1692 of Title 15 
                                   
                                  -------Original Message-------
                                   
                                  Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                                   
                                  Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very clearly".  The original contract almost always says the contract is valid for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.
                                   
                                  If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.
                                   
                                  Gary
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:26 PM
                                  To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                                  This is not theory!  I too help people with collection agencies.  Title 15  Fair Debt collection Practices Act spells it out very clearly.  What your sying is that I can purchase your note from anyone and have a valid contract to collect from you.  I don't think so!  Since you and I have not had a "meeting of the mind," and all requirements of a valid contract. 
                                  If what you are saying about a judge giving judgment against you he/she ois wrong.  You (plural) cannot enforce a non-binding contract.  A collection agency has NO legal remedy unless you make a payment to them thereby creating a contract by admission.
                                  And, if the collection agency turnes the debt back to the original creidtor, it cannot be collected on by the original creditor because is has been REPUDIATED!
                                   
                                  -------Original Message-------
                                   
                                  Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:33:35 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                                   
                                  This is a nice "theory" but, if a collection agency buys the debt and sues
                                  you and this is your defense, I can tell you the judge will say something
                                  like "They bought the debt and you owe it to them. Judgment for the
                                  plaintiff." That is a quote from a real case. If you can provide any court
                                  cites in which the purchaser of a debt lost because he didn't have a
                                  contract with the purchaser, I would very much like to read them.
                                   
                                  What is more likely to work in these cases is that many times the purchaser
                                  of these debts does not have proof that they actually purchased the debt and
                                  what the terms of that alleged purchase were. Many times this are purchased
                                  under a master sales agreement and they never produce that agreement or the
                                  list of accounts purchased at a specific time, they will try to use a sworn
                                  written statement by an alleged officer of the collection agency but this is
                                  a self serving statement that I would object to. I have had wins where they
                                  wouldn't produce the evidence that they actually purchased the debt. The
                                  terms of the purchase are also important to determine if the seller retained
                                  any interest in the account.
                                   
                                  Gary
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 2:06 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?
                                   
                                   
                                  I must disagree with your response to VALIDATION. A collection agency
                                  CANNOT provide a valid contract between you and them. Even if the contract
                                  was sold to the collection agency it is NOT valid because it would be a
                                  unilateral contract of which you did not sign. NO
                                  CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
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                                • gary
                                  Robert, I have read 1692 many times and have never found anything in there that indicates the purchaser of a debt cannot collect that debt. Specifically where
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 7, 2003
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                                    Robert,

                                    I have read 1692 many times and have never found anything in there that
                                    indicates the purchaser of a debt cannot collect that debt. Specifically
                                    where in 1692 do you find that stated and can you cite any court case where
                                    this was the finding?


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Robert Riggins [mailto:bobert@...]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:49 AM
                                    To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?


                                    check out section 1692 of Title 15

                                    -------Original Message-------

                                    From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 03:27:39 PM
                                    To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                                    Please state the specific section in the FDCPA that "spells it out very
                                    clearly". The original contract almost always says the contract is valid
                                    for the original creditor or it's "assigns" and the courts almost always
                                    take that to mean anyone the original creditor sells it to.

                                    If you think that the selling of a note invalidates that note, I would very
                                    much appreciate any statutes or court cites that you might have to support
                                    that as at least 50% of all bank notes are sold at least once and it sure
                                    would be nice if those people could just walk away from those debts.

                                    Gary
                                  • Legalbear
                                    ... From: tthor.geo [mailto:tthor.geo@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:57 PM To: tips_and_tricks-owner@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What is
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 1, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: tthor.geo [mailto:tthor.geo@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:57 PM
                                      To: tips_and_tricks-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: What is "VERIFICATION" of a debt?

                                      In essence, a "Verification" is a statement made under the Penalty of
                                      Perjury uttered for the purpose of proving the truth of a matter.

                                      For starts, you can research the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act
                                      (specifically 15 U.S.C.A., § 1692g(b)) which reads:

                                      (b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the
                                      thirty-day period described in subsection (a) of this section that
                                      the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer
                                      requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt
                                      collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion
                                      thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or
                                      a copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original
                                      creditor, and a copy of each verification or judgment, or name and
                                      address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the
                                      debt collector.

                                      Here is a "Verification" exemplar which I used to good effect with a
                                      debt collector:

                                      DEMAND

                                      I DEMAND that, within 30 days of your receipt of this letter, you
                                      have your assignor provide Verification for this claim by completing
                                      and signing a Verification of its claim containing, in substance, at
                                      least these elements:

                                      VERIFICATION

                                      I, _________________________________ (verifier's name),
                                      state/declare/affirm/certify/verify (pick one) under the penalty of
                                      perjury within the laws of the State of ____ that:

                                      I have personal knowledge of the facts stated herein.

                                      I am authorized to do business in the following name(s)
                                      ________________________________ in the State of ____ by (agency
                                      name) __________________________, (license/permit) number(s)
                                      __________.

                                      I am authorized to do business in the following name(s)
                                      _________________________ in the County of _____ by (agency name)
                                      __________________________, (license/permit) number(s) ____________.

                                      I am authorized to do business in the following name(s)
                                      _________________________ in the City of ____ by (agency name)
                                      ______________________, (license/permit) number(s) _______________.

                                      My Fictitious Business Statement(s) is/are filed with the County of
                                      _______________ at ______________________________ (physical
                                      location).

                                      I am authorized to extend credit to others in the State of _______ by
                                      (law/statute) ____________________________________ .

                                      I have a valid contract with the purported debtor and a true copy
                                      thereof is attached.

                                      I personally offered the contract represented by the Account in
                                      dispute to the purported debtor.

                                      I personally provided the goods or services represented by the
                                      Account in dispute to the purported debtor.

                                      I personally offered to extend credit to the purported debtor.

                                      I extended credit to the purported debtor with clean hands by making
                                      full and complete disclosure as required by the Uniform Commercial
                                      Code § 1-203 prior to establishing the Account in dispute.

                                      Signed: ______________________________

                                      Dated: ______________________

                                      At: ______________________________


                                      As always, this is merely a suggestion derived from my own personal
                                      experiences.



                                      "knj_inc" <knj_inc@a...> wrote:

                                      > I am trying desperately to understand what the legal meaning and
                                      > expectation of the words "Validation" or "Verification" is. When
                                      these
                                      > terms are used with letters to Creditors in order to demand proof
                                      of a
                                      > debt these Creditors are erroneously returning copies of computer
                                      > generated accounts and other receipts etc.. I am trying to
                                      determine
                                      > where is the statutory definition of these terms or are there court
                                      case
                                      > references that can be so used to determine the correct, definitive
                                      and
                                      > ultimate clear meaning/expectation when used?
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