Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [tips_and_tricks] Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??

Expand Messages
  • Randy Garriss
    Legal bear wrote, OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah,
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
    • 0 Attachment


      Legal bear wrote, "OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands."

      Of course, were not told of every detail within the lives of all those in which you mention above.  However, with respect to Adam, we are told that after the fall he was cursed to grub out is living in the thorns and thistles.  Genesis 3:18 And in verse 19 we are told, concerning Adam, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

      It's unlikely that Noah somehow fared better.  And it is equally unlikely that he would've been instructed to have built an ark in the manner, it is described to be constructed unless he were carpenter.  We also know with respect to David, as a youth he was a shepherd.  Being a shepherd involves much more than walking around with some sheep.  Animal husbandry is very labor-intensive. 

      With respect to Yahushuwah we are told his father was a carpenter, so it is likely that as an obedient son, he would have labored many years beside his father at least up to the time we are told he entered the ministry.  During the time Yahushuwah and his disciples walked the earth, we are told that there was appointed a Treasurer over their financial business, whatever that may have been from day-to-day.  It was not as if they lived a totally miraculous existence.  The monies held in their treasury they naturally received from working people engaged in their own business, just as the monies today that are paid to ministers of our age come from working people engaged in their business.

      But none of this is really the issue that I originally attempted to raise and I am afraid you seek to overlook the distinction I'm trying to point out.  That distinction is in a nutshell as follows: a state of leisure is not necessary to acquire wisdom from above.  I cited you authority for that in my last post.  Also a state of labor is not to be denigrated as was done in the book of Sirach, but as the apostle pointed out in 1Thessalonians 4:11, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"  it appears that private business and individual handiwork is being extolled here as a proper lifestyle not to be eschewed, but rather practiced in accordance with Genesis 3: 19.

      I recall a true story.  I read years ago about an Indian shaman.  His fingernails had grown over 6 foot long and were curled many times.  His boast was that this was proof of his spirituality because others would work and feed him.  He was useless when he came to any sort of labor.  Makes me wonder how he even took care of his own private hygiene.  Those were some questions left unanswered by the article.

      That one can point to many, in our present world or in times before, who have enjoyed great leisure while living off the backs of others in their position of rulers or kings fails to overcome the fact that wisdom is often times granted liberally to those who ask regardless of their station in life.  It is this distinction by which I take issue with the original premise you posted from the book of Sirach, and I likewise believe that the references I have listed stand in opposition to it also..

    • Randy Garriss
      ... On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote: To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
      • 0 Attachment


        ---

        On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote:

        "To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. "

         

        No one, I repeat no one, to my knowledge has yet, at least not myself, claimed that I would rather labor with my hands than to pursue wisdom..

         

        Again I will say to you, it is the denigration of the laborer by the writer of the book of Sirach that I have pointed to from the beginning to which I object.  For that reason I did not take the time to address the references you bring to mind once again as I really did not feel they were relevant to the issue I was raising. 

        The story of Mary and Martha pointed out that Martha was cumbered [or encumbered] by her labor.  This is akin to those who eat the bread of anxious toil as mentioned by the psalmist.

        I agree that we have to avoid being anxious for earthly needs.  But that doesn't mean we should quickly denigrate the spiritual state of the laborer in the manner that Sirach did as follows:

        38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

         

        I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.  I see nothing in the recipe that requires one to first live a leisurely life before Father will grant any who ask the liberal wisdom that He gives to all who seek Him and His righteousness.

         

        The fact that a person labors for their livelihood does not necessarily mean that they live in a state of anxiety.  I don't think that the apostle was living in anxiety, providing his daily needs while making tents to provide for those needs.

         

        As far as the idle workers mentioned in Matthew, I don't believe the parable has anything to do with, nor is it designed to teach the merits of idleness.  Rather, if you read on, in verse 15 and 16, you will find that the parable deals with the envy of some workers in the face of the generosity of the owner of the vineyard.

         

        And of course all the references you point out from Matthew chapter 6, over and over again deal with the state of anxiousness.

         

        I remain of the solid conviction that even those who labor will be given liberal wisdom when they seek Father and the kingdom of righteousness.

         

      • Baruch HaShem
        With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun. To understand this, The
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 14, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun.

          To understand this, The Hebrew word for wisdom (hokmah) is related to a root meaning "skill" or "care" and came to imply "skill in living."

          When you recall that the Master stated clearly in Mat 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahuwah." and Luke 4:4 "And Yahushuwah answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of Yahuwah."

          Ben Sirach poses a serious question, "How can we have 'skill in living' when living comes from 'very word of Yahuwah?' How can this be done when one constantly engages in manual labor? When will he have time to learn Torah?"

          --- On Wed,

          38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

            I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.

        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.