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Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??

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  • Legalbear
    To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. So far, no
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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      To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. So far, no one has addressed Luke 10:38-42 (Mary & Martha) or Matthew 20:1-8 (Estate owner hires idle workers). Here are a couple more for you to respond to:

       

      Psalm 127:2: It is vain for you to rise up early, to take rest late, to eat the bread of anxious toil—for He gives benefits to His beloved in sleep.

       

      Matthew 6:

       

      24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve The Mighty Creator and mammon (deceitful riches, money, possessions, or whatever is trusted in).

       

      25 Therefore I tell you, stop being perpetually uneasy (anxious and worried) about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink; or about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life greater [in quality] than food, and the body [far above and more excellent] than clothing?

       

      26 Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father keeps feeding them. Are you not worth much more than they?

       

      27 And who of you by worrying and being anxious can add one unit of measure (cubit) to his stature or to the span of his life?

       

      28 And why should you be anxious about clothes? Consider the lilies of the field and learn thoroughly how they grow; they neither toil nor spin.

       

      29 Yet I tell you, even Sholomo in all his magnificence was not arrayed like one of these.

       

      30 But if The Mighty Creator so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and green and tomorrow is tossed into the furnace, will He not much more surely clothe you, O you of little faith?

       

      31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?

       

      32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.

       

      33 But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness (His way of doing and being right), and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.

       

       

       

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    • Legalbear
      Peter, James, and John LABORED as fisherman until Yahushuwah called them in Matthew 4:22 and then, At once they left the boat and their father and joined
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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        Peter, James, and John LABORED as fisherman until Yahushuwah called them in Matthew 4:22 and then,

        “At once they left the boat and their father and joined Yahushuwah as disciples…” Matthew did the same thing

        at Matthew 9:9 until, “As Yahushuwah passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s office;

        and He said to him, Be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me]. And he rose and followed Him.”

         

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      • Randy Garriss
        No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn t constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth,
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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          No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.
           
          The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"
           

           The apostle also states in Acts 20:34 "You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions".  And in 1 Corinthians 4:12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it."

           Continuing in 1Thessalonians 2:9 he states, "Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of [Yahushuwah] to you."

          And clearly in contradistiction to the words of the writer of the book of Sirach, the apostle states in 1Thessalonians 4:11, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"

           

          The apostle continues in this train of thought in 2 Thessalonians 3:8 "nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you."

           

          Did any of the apostle's labor and toil preclude his access to wisdom?  I don't think so.

           

          As stated in James 3:17, "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."  The supposed wisdom of which Sirach speaks makes it appear that Father only grants the light of wisdom to those who are able to engage in leisure, leaving those who must toil day and night in the dark.

           

          But  the words of the writer in James 1:5 plainly show otherwise, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of [Father], that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

           

          I am truly thankful that wisdom is a gift, because if it depended on leisure I wouldn't have very much for I have had to work with my hands all my life.  I am therefore left to question the supposed wisdom of Sirach as both the spirit and the positions of the writers above and Sirach appear mutually exclusive.




           
        • Legalbear
          OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David,
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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            OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands.

             

            Call me at: 720-675-7230

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            No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.

             

            The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"

             

             


             

          • demanfos@charter.net
            Gen 3:19 You will work hard for your food, until your face is covered with sweat. You will work hard until the day you die, and then you will become dust
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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              Gen 3:19  You will work hard for your food, until your face is covered with sweat. You will work hard until the day you die, and then you will become dust again. I used dust to make you, and when you die, you will become dust again."
               
              So it was with Adam who was the beginning of mankind, and it follow that every man that came after him had to toil also, for their substanous.
               
              From: Legalbear
              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:49 PM
              Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??
               
               

              OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands.

              Call me at: 720-675-7230

              On Skype: legalbear

              Best times to call: 8:30 am to 9:00 pm MST

              Join my Yahoo Group Tips & Tricks for Court by sending an email to:

              tips_and_tricks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

              My blog: legalbearsblog.com

              Tax sites: IRSTerminator.com IRSLienThumper.com IRSLevyThumper.com

              (formatted like this so this email doesn't end up in your spam folder)

               

              No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.

              The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"




               

            • Randy Garriss
              Legal bear wrote, OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah,
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                Legal bear wrote, "OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands."

                Of course, were not told of every detail within the lives of all those in which you mention above.  However, with respect to Adam, we are told that after the fall he was cursed to grub out is living in the thorns and thistles.  Genesis 3:18 And in verse 19 we are told, concerning Adam, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

                It's unlikely that Noah somehow fared better.  And it is equally unlikely that he would've been instructed to have built an ark in the manner, it is described to be constructed unless he were carpenter.  We also know with respect to David, as a youth he was a shepherd.  Being a shepherd involves much more than walking around with some sheep.  Animal husbandry is very labor-intensive. 

                With respect to Yahushuwah we are told his father was a carpenter, so it is likely that as an obedient son, he would have labored many years beside his father at least up to the time we are told he entered the ministry.  During the time Yahushuwah and his disciples walked the earth, we are told that there was appointed a Treasurer over their financial business, whatever that may have been from day-to-day.  It was not as if they lived a totally miraculous existence.  The monies held in their treasury they naturally received from working people engaged in their own business, just as the monies today that are paid to ministers of our age come from working people engaged in their business.

                But none of this is really the issue that I originally attempted to raise and I am afraid you seek to overlook the distinction I'm trying to point out.  That distinction is in a nutshell as follows: a state of leisure is not necessary to acquire wisdom from above.  I cited you authority for that in my last post.  Also a state of labor is not to be denigrated as was done in the book of Sirach, but as the apostle pointed out in 1Thessalonians 4:11, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"  it appears that private business and individual handiwork is being extolled here as a proper lifestyle not to be eschewed, but rather practiced in accordance with Genesis 3: 19.

                I recall a true story.  I read years ago about an Indian shaman.  His fingernails had grown over 6 foot long and were curled many times.  His boast was that this was proof of his spirituality because others would work and feed him.  He was useless when he came to any sort of labor.  Makes me wonder how he even took care of his own private hygiene.  Those were some questions left unanswered by the article.

                That one can point to many, in our present world or in times before, who have enjoyed great leisure while living off the backs of others in their position of rulers or kings fails to overcome the fact that wisdom is often times granted liberally to those who ask regardless of their station in life.  It is this distinction by which I take issue with the original premise you posted from the book of Sirach, and I likewise believe that the references I have listed stand in opposition to it also..

              • Randy Garriss
                ... On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote: To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                  ---

                  On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote:

                  "To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. "

                   

                  No one, I repeat no one, to my knowledge has yet, at least not myself, claimed that I would rather labor with my hands than to pursue wisdom..

                   

                  Again I will say to you, it is the denigration of the laborer by the writer of the book of Sirach that I have pointed to from the beginning to which I object.  For that reason I did not take the time to address the references you bring to mind once again as I really did not feel they were relevant to the issue I was raising. 

                  The story of Mary and Martha pointed out that Martha was cumbered [or encumbered] by her labor.  This is akin to those who eat the bread of anxious toil as mentioned by the psalmist.

                  I agree that we have to avoid being anxious for earthly needs.  But that doesn't mean we should quickly denigrate the spiritual state of the laborer in the manner that Sirach did as follows:

                  38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

                   

                  I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.  I see nothing in the recipe that requires one to first live a leisurely life before Father will grant any who ask the liberal wisdom that He gives to all who seek Him and His righteousness.

                   

                  The fact that a person labors for their livelihood does not necessarily mean that they live in a state of anxiety.  I don't think that the apostle was living in anxiety, providing his daily needs while making tents to provide for those needs.

                   

                  As far as the idle workers mentioned in Matthew, I don't believe the parable has anything to do with, nor is it designed to teach the merits of idleness.  Rather, if you read on, in verse 15 and 16, you will find that the parable deals with the envy of some workers in the face of the generosity of the owner of the vineyard.

                   

                  And of course all the references you point out from Matthew chapter 6, over and over again deal with the state of anxiousness.

                   

                  I remain of the solid conviction that even those who labor will be given liberal wisdom when they seek Father and the kingdom of righteousness.

                   

                • Baruch HaShem
                  With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun. To understand this, The
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 14, 2012
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                    With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun.

                    To understand this, The Hebrew word for wisdom (hokmah) is related to a root meaning "skill" or "care" and came to imply "skill in living."

                    When you recall that the Master stated clearly in Mat 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahuwah." and Luke 4:4 "And Yahushuwah answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of Yahuwah."

                    Ben Sirach poses a serious question, "How can we have 'skill in living' when living comes from 'very word of Yahuwah?' How can this be done when one constantly engages in manual labor? When will he have time to learn Torah?"

                    --- On Wed,

                    38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

                      I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.

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