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Re: [tips_and_tricks] Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??

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  • frogfrmr@frogfarm.org
    ... Since my stuff I used to spend time on was burned up in an arson attack, and mt main computer crashed, I have lots of leisure time now. Like Reagan did, I
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 1, 2012
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      > 24 The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of
      > leisure: and he that has little business shall become wise.

      Since my stuff I used to spend time on was burned up in an arson attack,
      and mt main computer crashed, I have lots of leisure time now. Like
      Reagan did, I cut a lot of brush.

      That word, "business", to me is more dangerous than a pet rattlesnake.

      I went to a "Business Expo" and there were hundreds of booths from many
      corporations, all presenting their thing, and I made it a point to stop at
      any that had the word "Business" in their advertising, and asked them for
      the definition of the word that carried legal weight and could put people
      into jail. NOT ONE had a definition! They all looked at me like I was
      supposed to know what "business" means, like they all knew. But NOBODY
      THERE knew!!

      I tried to help by asking obvious questions like, "Is it whatever you are
      doing whenever you are busy?" When do you need to get a business license?
      - Before you get busy, or after you are sure you can stay busy? If you
      pay for the license and never get busy, can you get a refund?

      And what about these concepts: Are you a business, do you own a business,
      are you IN business, OUT of business, etc.? Everybody knows, right?!

      I've decided to avoid business. I don't want to get any business license
      or engage in any regulated activities such as business. Instead, I'm
      opting in to having, instead of a business, a happiness. You don't need
      any happiness license past the Declaration of Independence. Business is
      taxed while happiness is protected. So I'm exercising freedom of choice
      to avoid business and replace its role in my life with happiness.

      What happiness are you in, I expect to be asked as much as people ask,
      what business are you in? I'm currently in the internet utilization
      happiness, thank you.

      "How much do you make in your new happiness?"

      Lots!!

      Regards,

      FF
    • Roger Hattman
      Thank you, FF. I work independently and get asked questions like How long have you been in business? ( answer: never)   or How much business did you do
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 1, 2012
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        Thank you, FF.


        I work independently and get asked questions like "How long have you been in business?" ( answer: never)   or "How much business did you do last year?" (answer:none).  


        I don't like to speak two languages (English and Legalese) , so I stick with Legalese since it seems to avoid trouble for me, although other folks sometimes get confused.  Generally being in a "business" requires licenses, permits, etc.  I prefer to exercise my inalienable right to earn a living.  

      • neeo1@rocketmail.com
        Rogue agencies are constantly elevating form over substance, labels over actualities, in order to cheat people out of their rights including property, by
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 2, 2012
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          Rogue agencies are constantly elevating form over substance, labels over actualities, in order to cheat people out of their rights including property, by convincing their marks to agree or stipulate to their misleading terms of art without full disclosure. Never agree, never consent, never admit, never understand and always object and make them prove and define precisely every word they use.

          --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Roger Hattman <rogerhattman@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you, FF.
          >
          > I work independently and get asked questions like "How long have you been in business?" ( answer: never)   or "How much business did you do last year?" (answer:none).  
          > I don't like to speak two languages (English and Legalese) , so I stick with Legalese since it seems to avoid trouble for me, although other folks sometimes get confused.  Generally being in a "business" requires licenses, permits, etc.  I prefer to exercise my inalienable right to earn a living.  
          >
        • Shaun Ragland
          Dear FF: My curiosity is buzzing. What do you consider YOUR definition of the word business to mean ?? Wikipedia has it as: A business (also known as
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 2, 2012
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            Dear FF:

            My curiosity is buzzing. What do you consider "YOUR" definition of the word business to mean ??

            Wikipedia has it as:

            A business (also known as enterprise or firm) is an organization engaged in the trade of goods, services, or both to consumers.[1] Businesses are predominant in capitalist economies, where most of them are privately owned and administered to earn profit to increase the wealth of their owners. Businesses may also be not-for-profit or state-owned. A business owned by multiple individuals may be referred to as a company, although that term also has a more precise meaning.

            The etymology of "business" relates to the state of being busy either as an individual or society as a whole, doing commercially viable and profitable work. The term "business" has at least three usages, depending on the scope — the singular usage to mean a particular organization; the generalized usage to refer to a particular market sector, "the music business" and compound forms such as agribusiness; and the broadest meaning, which encompasses all activity by the community of suppliers of goods and services. However, the exact definition of business, like much else in the philosophy of business, is a matter of debate and complexity of meanings.

            I have learned a great deal from some of your earlier posts and do not want to miss an opportunity to further my knowledge. If you would be so kind, I would really like you're input.

            Thank You,

            Shaun -----
          • lg900df@rock.com
            Correct and WELL SAID: The whole thing is corn hole based...as in how can we corn hole you to admit something we define our way so you implicate yourself
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 4, 2012
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              Correct and WELL SAID: 
              The whole thing is "corn hole" based...as in "how can we corn hole you to admit something we define our way so you implicate yourself under our territoriality limited law." 

              The New Testament.... handled this kind of trick thing best.

              Years ago I watched this show by Robert McNamara...one VERY SMART fellow. He said NEVER ANSWER A QUESTION the way it is PHRASED....always answer how YOU would have liked it to be asked. [Translation...clarify your response to how they should have asked it]

              You can tailor this to any state or simply include all of them and they'll get quickly tired....such as State of Ohio, State of New York, Sate of New Jersey, State of ....["Ok...already I get it! will be their response"...ha ha]

              Most states have laws written around "doing business"..."in this State"....where "this state" in their law is defined as means The State of XYZ

              Its ALL territorial based and all tied back to territory they really exercise a proprietary power over due to ownership....so in New York appears the State of New York whereby they exercise proprietary power over territory of ownership.

              Thus: 
              I don't do business in the State of XYZ 
              Where do you live? I don't claim residence in the State of XYZ 
              Where were you born? I don't know...I wasn't aware of things at that age.
              Are you a US Citizen? The term US is defined in written law in various ways. Are you elevating me to the status of a lawyer to be able to make an interpretation of written law? [They'll never do this!]

              Is 1414 Main Street where you live? I can truthfully say I can't live there. [I went around and around with a lawyer on this one....finally when it was all over she asked me, How can you say you don't live there?" Answer: Because dear attorney, 1414 Main is a LABEL assigned to a metal BOX by the USPS and truthfully no one can fit in that box.






               

              Rogue agencies are constantly elevating form over substance, labels over actualities, in order to cheat people out of their rights including property, by convincing their marks to agree or stipulate to their misleading terms of art without full disclosure. Never agree, never consent, never admit, never understand and always object and make them prove and define precisely every word they use.

              --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Roger Hattman <rogerhattman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you, FF.
              >
              > I work independently and get asked questions like "How long have you been in business?" ( answer: never)   or "How much business did you do last year?" (answer:none).  
              > I don't like to speak two languages (English and Legalese) , so I stick with Legalese since it seems to avoid trouble for me, although other folks sometimes get confused.  Generally being in a "business" requires licenses, permits, etc.  I prefer to exercise my inalienable right to earn a living.  
              >


              --
            • hobot
              Most states have laws written around doing business ... in this State ....where this state in their law is defined as means The State of XYZ Yes and in
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 5, 2012
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                Most states have laws written around "doing business"..."in this
                State"....where "this state" in their law is defined as means The State
                of XYZ

                Yes and 'in this state' means "the state of being" within the external
                boundaries of a once dejure union State that has Federal overlapping
                Buck Act jurisdiction that stems from the bayonet forced new State
                Federal subdivision Constitutions with the 13th and 14th adm's tacked
                on that gives Congress authority to regulate and enforce. So are you
                a man with feet on the State soil or an entity in fictional legal space
                laid over the land? hobot
              • Mike
                ... This state is not a de jure state. It refers to the state (international law) defined as the U.S. . In my view, when the U.S. was overthrown in 1868
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 6, 2012
                >"where 'this state' their law..." 

                This "state" is not a de jure state. It refers to the state (international law) defined as the "U.S.". In my view, when the "U.S." was overthrown in 1868 the de jure Republic ceased to exist and a legislative democracy was installed in it's place. This includes the "states", which, prior to this time were independent nations under international law.

                Attorneys will play the "game" and pretend that there are other "states" by which you may be "charged". This is a boldfaced lie. The de jure "U.S." ceased to exist in 1861.  See the newspaper clipping attached for the de jure U.S.  Senate dissolving sine die. See the other attachment for the "new U.S.". Also see the 1967 Congressional Record (attached) for an indication that the de facto Congress knows this FACT.

                If you don't want to do "business" in "this state" then make the choice not too.
                 
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                From: hobot <hobot@...>
                To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:11 PM
                Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] Re: Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??

                 

                Most states have laws written around "doing business"..."in this
                State"....where "this state" in their law is defined as means The State
                of XYZ

                Yes and 'in this state' means "the state of being" within the external
                boundaries of a once dejure union State that has Federal overlapping
                Buck Act jurisdiction that stems from the bayonet forced new State
                Federal subdivision Constitutions with the 13th and 14th adm's tacked
                on that gives Congress authority to regulate and enforce. So are you
                a man with feet on the State soil or an entity in fictional legal space
                laid over the land? hobot



              • Randy Garriss
                The author of the Book of Sirach writes: The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of leisure: and he that has little business shall become wise.  
                Message 8 of 19 , Nov 11, 2012
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                  The author of the Book of Sirach writes: "The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of leisure: and he that has little business shall become wise."
                   
                  This portion of Sirach sounds to me much more like the musings of some Talmudic Zionist who egotistically considers those who labor as goy.  I don't buy the major premise that the acquisition of wisdom is dependent upon first enjoying a state of leisure. 
                  Wisdom cometh from above and is gifted to those who seek, regardless of their station in life. The just nature of our Creator demands such, and often times proves such a dispensation of wisdom to exist, for example, "Out of the mouth of babes..."
                   
                  But, take for instance those who are born with the silver spoon that enables an abundance of leisure, their birth providence enabling them to live off the usuries exacted of others.  This sort most often rise to positions of judges, legislators, and statesmen, but do we actually witness very much real wisdom on their part.  The opposite is more often true. 
                   
                  True wisdom is in and of itself divine and is to be distinguished from knowledge. We daily witness leisurely men exercising a form of wisdom/knowledge that operates to selfishly multiply and maintain their wealth while maintaining a monopoly over the centers of both state and religious power.  We laboring class look upon these leaders with derision because of the wisdom from above that is given to us  that enables us to perceive, oftentimes solely through intuition, the injustices and follies of such men.  We may not be able to verbally articulate the fact that such leaders are selfish and evil, yet we innately sense it, and know it to be a fact. And history proves it has always been so.
                   
                  Where a laborer seeks wisdom from the Creator of all, it is dispensed liberally.  Such a laborer may not enjoy the particular knowledge that those with leisure have learned to practice, however such a one is in a much better position, for example, to sense and show empathy toward the injustices of their fellowmen than those who practice leisure at the expense of others will ever be.
                   
                  Somewhere else it is written that "he that is greatest among you shall be servant of all".  So let's be careful that we not fall for the trap of extolling a state of leisure while denigrating those who labor.
                   
                  Does this mean that the laborer is not to engage in some leisure.  Quite the opposite.  A certain amount of leisure is great.  But be careful that a love for that state not overcome you.   Let everything be done in moderation.

                  LRD 

                   

                  .

                • E Junker
                  The Greek word for leisure is scholae. The author of the Book of Sirach writes: The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of leisure: and he that has
                  Message 9 of 19 , Nov 11, 2012
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                    The Greek word for leisure is scholae.




                    The author of the Book of Sirach writes: "The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of leisure: and he that has little business shall become wise."
                  • Russ
                    Seems to me, it would be impossible to focus on and contemplate an eternal, everlasting, unchanging, or infinite (creator) without shifting ones focus away
                    Message 10 of 19 , Nov 12, 2012
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                      Seems to me, it would be impossible to focus on and contemplate an eternal, everlasting, unchanging, or infinite (creator) without shifting ones focus away from anything limited or finite (constrained by time and space).

                      -Russ




                      E Junker wrote:
                       

                      The Greek word for leisure is scholae.

                      The author of the Book of Sirach writes: "The wisdom of a learned man comes by opportunity of leisure: and he that has little business shall become wise."


                    • Legalbear
                      To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. So far, no
                      Message 11 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                        To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. So far, no one has addressed Luke 10:38-42 (Mary & Martha) or Matthew 20:1-8 (Estate owner hires idle workers). Here are a couple more for you to respond to:

                         

                        Psalm 127:2: It is vain for you to rise up early, to take rest late, to eat the bread of anxious toil—for He gives benefits to His beloved in sleep.

                         

                        Matthew 6:

                         

                        24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve The Mighty Creator and mammon (deceitful riches, money, possessions, or whatever is trusted in).

                         

                        25 Therefore I tell you, stop being perpetually uneasy (anxious and worried) about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink; or about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life greater [in quality] than food, and the body [far above and more excellent] than clothing?

                         

                        26 Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father keeps feeding them. Are you not worth much more than they?

                         

                        27 And who of you by worrying and being anxious can add one unit of measure (cubit) to his stature or to the span of his life?

                         

                        28 And why should you be anxious about clothes? Consider the lilies of the field and learn thoroughly how they grow; they neither toil nor spin.

                         

                        29 Yet I tell you, even Sholomo in all his magnificence was not arrayed like one of these.

                         

                        30 But if The Mighty Creator so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and green and tomorrow is tossed into the furnace, will He not much more surely clothe you, O you of little faith?

                         

                        31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?

                         

                        32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.

                         

                        33 But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness (His way of doing and being right), and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.

                         

                         

                         

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                      • Legalbear
                        Peter, James, and John LABORED as fisherman until Yahushuwah called them in Matthew 4:22 and then, At once they left the boat and their father and joined
                        Message 12 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                          Peter, James, and John LABORED as fisherman until Yahushuwah called them in Matthew 4:22 and then,

                          “At once they left the boat and their father and joined Yahushuwah as disciples…” Matthew did the same thing

                          at Matthew 9:9 until, “As Yahushuwah passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s office;

                          and He said to him, Be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me]. And he rose and followed Him.”

                           

                          Call me at: 720-675-7230

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                        • Randy Garriss
                          No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn t constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth,
                          Message 13 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                            No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.
                             
                            The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"
                             

                             The apostle also states in Acts 20:34 "You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions".  And in 1 Corinthians 4:12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it."

                             Continuing in 1Thessalonians 2:9 he states, "Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of [Yahushuwah] to you."

                            And clearly in contradistiction to the words of the writer of the book of Sirach, the apostle states in 1Thessalonians 4:11, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"

                             

                            The apostle continues in this train of thought in 2 Thessalonians 3:8 "nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you."

                             

                            Did any of the apostle's labor and toil preclude his access to wisdom?  I don't think so.

                             

                            As stated in James 3:17, "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."  The supposed wisdom of which Sirach speaks makes it appear that Father only grants the light of wisdom to those who are able to engage in leisure, leaving those who must toil day and night in the dark.

                             

                            But  the words of the writer in James 1:5 plainly show otherwise, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of [Father], that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

                             

                            I am truly thankful that wisdom is a gift, because if it depended on leisure I wouldn't have very much for I have had to work with my hands all my life.  I am therefore left to question the supposed wisdom of Sirach as both the spirit and the positions of the writers above and Sirach appear mutually exclusive.




                             
                          • Legalbear
                            OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David,
                            Message 14 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                              OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands.

                               

                              Call me at: 720-675-7230

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                              No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.

                               

                              The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"

                               

                               


                               

                            • demanfos@charter.net
                              Gen 3:19 You will work hard for your food, until your face is covered with sweat. You will work hard until the day you die, and then you will become dust
                              Message 15 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                Gen 3:19  You will work hard for your food, until your face is covered with sweat. You will work hard until the day you die, and then you will become dust again. I used dust to make you, and when you die, you will become dust again."
                                 
                                So it was with Adam who was the beginning of mankind, and it follow that every man that came after him had to toil also, for their substanous.
                                 
                                From: Legalbear
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:49 PM
                                Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Have You Chosen that Which Cannot be Taken From You??
                                 
                                 

                                OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands.

                                Call me at: 720-675-7230

                                On Skype: legalbear

                                Best times to call: 8:30 am to 9:00 pm MST

                                Join my Yahoo Group Tips & Tricks for Court by sending an email to:

                                tips_and_tricks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                My blog: legalbearsblog.com

                                Tax sites: IRSTerminator.com IRSLienThumper.com IRSLevyThumper.com

                                (formatted like this so this email doesn't end up in your spam folder)

                                 

                                No one could intelligently argue that searching for the truth and following that path doesn't constitute the best choice for our life, a choice for truth, the benefits of which can never be taken from us.  I am in total agreement.  The writer of the book of Sirach premised however that it was by leisure that wisdom would be granted enabling such leisurely ones the possibility of being chosen as a counselor or judge over all.  This I disagree with and offer the following in support of my position.

                                The same book that teaches us of men who sought truth by following after Yahushuwah also teaches us the place that work, i.e. labor,  should have in our daily life.  The writer says of the apostle, Act 18: 3 "And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and worked: for by their occupation they were tentmakers"




                                 

                              • Randy Garriss
                                Legal bear wrote, OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah,
                                Message 16 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                  Legal bear wrote, "OK, now that you said all that, tell us how Adam, Enoch, Noah, Mosheh, Yisra’el in wilderness, Joshua, Caleb, Samson, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, King Saul, David, and Yahushuwah himself labored with their hands."

                                  Of course, were not told of every detail within the lives of all those in which you mention above.  However, with respect to Adam, we are told that after the fall he was cursed to grub out is living in the thorns and thistles.  Genesis 3:18 And in verse 19 we are told, concerning Adam, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

                                  It's unlikely that Noah somehow fared better.  And it is equally unlikely that he would've been instructed to have built an ark in the manner, it is described to be constructed unless he were carpenter.  We also know with respect to David, as a youth he was a shepherd.  Being a shepherd involves much more than walking around with some sheep.  Animal husbandry is very labor-intensive. 

                                  With respect to Yahushuwah we are told his father was a carpenter, so it is likely that as an obedient son, he would have labored many years beside his father at least up to the time we are told he entered the ministry.  During the time Yahushuwah and his disciples walked the earth, we are told that there was appointed a Treasurer over their financial business, whatever that may have been from day-to-day.  It was not as if they lived a totally miraculous existence.  The monies held in their treasury they naturally received from working people engaged in their own business, just as the monies today that are paid to ministers of our age come from working people engaged in their business.

                                  But none of this is really the issue that I originally attempted to raise and I am afraid you seek to overlook the distinction I'm trying to point out.  That distinction is in a nutshell as follows: a state of leisure is not necessary to acquire wisdom from above.  I cited you authority for that in my last post.  Also a state of labor is not to be denigrated as was done in the book of Sirach, but as the apostle pointed out in 1Thessalonians 4:11, "Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"  it appears that private business and individual handiwork is being extolled here as a proper lifestyle not to be eschewed, but rather practiced in accordance with Genesis 3: 19.

                                  I recall a true story.  I read years ago about an Indian shaman.  His fingernails had grown over 6 foot long and were curled many times.  His boast was that this was proof of his spirituality because others would work and feed him.  He was useless when he came to any sort of labor.  Makes me wonder how he even took care of his own private hygiene.  Those were some questions left unanswered by the article.

                                  That one can point to many, in our present world or in times before, who have enjoyed great leisure while living off the backs of others in their position of rulers or kings fails to overcome the fact that wisdom is often times granted liberally to those who ask regardless of their station in life.  It is this distinction by which I take issue with the original premise you posted from the book of Sirach, and I likewise believe that the references I have listed stand in opposition to it also..

                                • Randy Garriss
                                  ... On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote: To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would
                                  Message 17 of 19 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                    On Tue, 11/13/12, Legalbear  wrote:

                                    "To those of you who say Sirach has no clue on leisure; in fact, he is so wrong, I labor with my hands and would rather do that than pursue wisdom. "

                                     

                                    No one, I repeat no one, to my knowledge has yet, at least not myself, claimed that I would rather labor with my hands than to pursue wisdom..

                                     

                                    Again I will say to you, it is the denigration of the laborer by the writer of the book of Sirach that I have pointed to from the beginning to which I object.  For that reason I did not take the time to address the references you bring to mind once again as I really did not feel they were relevant to the issue I was raising. 

                                    The story of Mary and Martha pointed out that Martha was cumbered [or encumbered] by her labor.  This is akin to those who eat the bread of anxious toil as mentioned by the psalmist.

                                    I agree that we have to avoid being anxious for earthly needs.  But that doesn't mean we should quickly denigrate the spiritual state of the laborer in the manner that Sirach did as follows:

                                    38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

                                     

                                    I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.  I see nothing in the recipe that requires one to first live a leisurely life before Father will grant any who ask the liberal wisdom that He gives to all who seek Him and His righteousness.

                                     

                                    The fact that a person labors for their livelihood does not necessarily mean that they live in a state of anxiety.  I don't think that the apostle was living in anxiety, providing his daily needs while making tents to provide for those needs.

                                     

                                    As far as the idle workers mentioned in Matthew, I don't believe the parable has anything to do with, nor is it designed to teach the merits of idleness.  Rather, if you read on, in verse 15 and 16, you will find that the parable deals with the envy of some workers in the face of the generosity of the owner of the vineyard.

                                     

                                    And of course all the references you point out from Matthew chapter 6, over and over again deal with the state of anxiousness.

                                     

                                    I remain of the solid conviction that even those who labor will be given liberal wisdom when they seek Father and the kingdom of righteousness.

                                     

                                  • Baruch HaShem
                                    With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun. To understand this, The
                                    Message 18 of 19 , Nov 14, 2012
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                                      With regard to to the following statements; My friend needs to understand that the Wisdom of ben Sirach is written as a hebraic pun.

                                      To understand this, The Hebrew word for wisdom (hokmah) is related to a root meaning "skill" or "care" and came to imply "skill in living."

                                      When you recall that the Master stated clearly in Mat 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahuwah." and Luke 4:4 "And Yahushuwah answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of Yahuwah."

                                      Ben Sirach poses a serious question, "How can we have 'skill in living' when living comes from 'very word of Yahuwah?' How can this be done when one constantly engages in manual labor? When will he have time to learn Torah?"

                                      --- On Wed,

                                      38:25 “How can he get wisdom that holds the plough, and that enjoys the goad, that drives oxen, and is occupied in their labors, and whose talk is of bullocks? 26 He gives his mind to make furrows; and is diligent to give the kine fodder. 

                                        I have attempted to explain over and over that such a one, such a laborer, can get all the wisdom he needs by asking Father.

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