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On emitting bills of credit aka Federal Reserve Notes :-)

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  • Legalbear
    The clause in the constitution which this act is supposed to violate is in these words: No state shall emit bills of credit. What is a bill of credit? What
    Message 1 of 11 , May 25 6:55 PM
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      The clause in the constitution which this act is supposed to violate is in these words: "No state shall" "emit bills of credit."

       

      What is a bill of credit? What did the constitution mean to forbid?

       

      In its enlarged, and perhaps its literal sense, the term "bill of credit" may comprehend any instrument by which a state engages to pay money at a future day; thus including a certificate given for money borrowed. But the language 432*432 of the constitution itself, and the mischief to be prevented, which we know from the history of our country, equally limit the interpretation of the terms. The word "emit," is never employed in describing those contracts by which a state binds itself to pay money at a future day for services actually received, or for money borrowed for present use; nor are instruments executed for such purposes, in common language, denominated "bills of credit." To "emit bills of credit," conveys to the mind the idea of issuing paper intended to circulate through the community for its ordinary purposes, as money, which paper is redeemable at a future day. This is the sense in which the terms have been always understood.

       

      At a very early period of our colonial history, the attempt to supply the want of the precious metals by a paper medium was made to a considerable extent; and the bills emitted for this purpose have been frequently denominated bills of credit. During the war of our revolution, we were driven to this expedient; and necessity compelled us to use it to a most fearful extent. The term has acquired an appropriate meaning; and "bills of credit" signify a paper medium, intended to circulate between individuals, and between government and individuals, for the ordinary purposes of society. Such a medium has been always liable to considerable fluctuation. Its value is continually changing; and these changes, often great and sudden, expose individuals to immense loss, are the sources of ruinous speculations, and destroy all confidence between man and man. To cut up this mischief by the roots, a mischief which was felt through the United States, and which deeply affected the interest and prosperity of all; the people declared in their constitution, that no state should emit bills of credit. If the prohibition means anything, if the words are not empty sounds, it must comprehend the emission of any paper medium, by a state government, for the purpose of common circulation. CRAIG ET AL. v. The State of Missouri, 29 US 410, 431-2 - Supreme Court

       

       

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    • Michael
      ... I am unaware of any state issuing bills of credit, for the issuance of FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES are done so by a private corporation within the federal
      Message 2 of 11 , May 26 2:45 PM
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        --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "Legalbear" <bear@...> wrote:
        >
        > The clause in the constitution which this act is supposed to
        > violate is in these words: "No state shall" "emit bills of
        > credit."

        > To "emit
        > bills of credit," conveys to the mind the idea of issuing
        > paper intended to circulate through the community for its
        > ordinary purposes, as money, which paper is redeemable at a
        > future day. This is the sense in which the terms have been
        > always understood.

        I am unaware of any "state" issuing bills of credit, for the
        issuance of FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES are done so by a private
        corporation within the federal plane.

        In any state court, what can, and should be raised is, WHAT
        is the state/county/municipality demanding as payment?

        Define "Pay" WHAT "Amount of $XXX" means? Amount of WHAT?
        The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion
        that a particular "fine" must be paid.

        Okay, state/county/municipality, I am willing to pay that
        which I lawfully owe. Please tell me what is being demanded?
        Dollars? Dollars of WHAT?

        Via FF, via Merrill Jenkins, ask, What is the current account
        of money in the United States today, and how much of that is
        a dollar amount?

        Each time I am in court, [traffic offense-realted], I
        demand to know from the prosecuting state/municipal
        attorney, what is the agency/municipality demanding?

        "We are demanding United States currency."

        or

        "The demand is for American money."

        One judge, who saw the city attorney had no clue,
        asked what I thought a dollar was... Instead of
        saying the burden of proof was not upon me, I did
        answer, [this was 40 minutes into a simple parking
        meter ticket case], saying the only lawful definition
        I knew was that a dollar was denominated in silver.

        Judge: "I agree! You fine is $50 dollars of silver."

        Thank you, judge. [In deference to FF, raising the
        oath qualification to disqualify a judge/attorney
        does not fly in Illinois].

        This case began in December 2011. My appeal brief
        is due next month. The the city attorney has 35 days
        to respond. Six months, and counting...how much is
        this going to cost the city to collect on a "$50" expired
        meter fine, which it will not be able to collect because
        the appellate court will never let this case be cited,
        and cannot rule in favor of a judge who imposed a fine
        in a dollar that does not circulate, nor agree with
        the city attorney to pay it in "American money."?

        Emit bills of credit, to me, does not carry the efficacy
        of challenging states to answer: What is being demanded
        in the demand "Pay the amount of $XXX," when it is
        undefined, vague, and impossible to pay.
      • Frog Farmer
        ... California. ... Of course, the proper number of dollars ascertained by law! ... Amount of dollars. Can imaginary stuff be amounted ? Real stuff can. Was
        Message 3 of 11 , May 28 7:39 PM
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          > > To "emit
          > > bills of credit," conveys to the mind the idea of issuing
          > > paper intended to circulate through the community for its
          > > ordinary purposes, as money, which paper is redeemable at a
          > > future day. This is the sense in which the terms have been
          > > always understood.
          >
          > I am unaware of any "state" issuing bills of credit,

          California.

          > In any state court, what can, and should be raised is, WHAT
          > is the state/county/municipality demanding as payment?

          Of course, the proper number of dollars ascertained by law!

          > Define "Pay" WHAT "Amount of $XXX" means? Amount of WHAT?

          Amount of dollars.

          Can imaginary stuff be "amounted"? Real stuff can. Was there a date
          when it became reality that most people could be persuaded to equate a
          negative number with a positive number? I must have been out fishing
          that day and missed the announcement (like so much other stuff all those
          around me seem to somehow "know" about, yet they all arrived to the show
          much later than I did.) I am getting more cranky for sure. Does anyone
          have any idea of the multiples of the GDP that are already owed to
          someone? The blips can never be materialized for delivery in any
          courtroom.

          > The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion
          > that a particular "fine" must be paid.

          Who can disagree that it must be paid?! If that is still an issue, it's
          too early for this part of the discussion!

          > Okay, state/county/municipality, I am willing to pay that
          > which I lawfully owe.

          I never doubted that, my man! Me too. NOW that the issue is settled
          that we all agree on the proper payment being completed, now is the time
          to move forward.

          > Please tell me what is being demanded?
          > Dollars? Dollars of WHAT?
          >
          > Via FF, via Merrill Jenkins, ask, What is the current account
          > of money in the United States today, and how much of that is
          > a dollar amount?

          Ow! WOW!!! WHAT a MISQUOTE!!!! Fatal, too, if used in action in the
          heat of a battle of wits with contenders who may or may not be unarmed!!

          ATTENTION: I disclaim the above "via FF" and blame failure to use
          quoting features of reply software. Notice that my original message was
          NOT quoted. Unfortunately it was misunderstood and summarized
          incorrectly. Did one READ Jenkins?? Did one READ Vierra? The
          Handyman? My answer to those non=Socratic questions: probably not.

          > Each time I am in court, [traffic offense-related], I
          > demand to know from the prosecuting state/municipal
          > attorney, what is the agency/municipality demanding?

          It is well known that the geographical area you describe is reputed for
          its corruption across the board. So, how IS anyone ever disqualified in
          Illinois? I left before ever finding out!

          I feel so blessed being here where I am where unqualified imposters can
          be routed out, more often persuaded to bow out, and so the burden of
          numbers of them piling on never materializes. Move, evacuate the
          territory of the tyrants!

          > "We are demanding United States currency."

          Uh huh, so, WHAT is the CURRENT money of account of the United States
          and how much of THAT is a "dollar" quantity? Can you point to some law
          or authority over which I might be able to confer with legal counsel?

          > or
          >
          > "The demand is for American money."

          American money? Are we talking Ameros already? Mexico is in America,
          as are many other countries. Am I to understand that because the
          colorful papers in your wallet only can represent a tiny fraction of the
          total number of "dollars" people have promised to deliver, the nature of
          which they cannot articulate due to maleducation, now anything coming
          under the definition of "American money" is acceptable to this court?
          (aside to attorney, "Call Guido and have him deliver us a wad of those
          old Guyanese dollars."

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_dollar

          > One judge, who saw the city attorney had no clue,
          > asked what I thought a dollar was...

          Trick question alert! And NOBODY has any clue!

          > Instead of
          > saying the burden of proof was not upon me,

          Or replying, "Have I been incorrectly assuming it is a unit of
          measurement?"

          > I did
          > answer, [this was 40 minutes into a simple parking
          > meter ticket case], saying the only lawful definition
          > I knew was that a dollar was denominated in silver.

          As in poker, sometimes it is best not to play that hand you think is so
          good. "Dollars" are not "denominated" "in silver". Proof no one read
          Jenkins is that saying that a dollar is denominated in silver is the
          same as saying that a gallon is denominated in gasoline. It is totally
          180 degrees out of sync with the reality expressed by the law, which
          also nobody seems to think is worth quoting.

          > Judge: "I agree! You fine is $50 dollars of silver."
          >
          > Thank you, judge. [In deference to FF, raising the
          > oath qualification to disqualify a judge/attorney
          > does not fly in Illinois].

          Is there no method of disqualification provided by Illinois laws?
          Unbelievable, but maybe they've perfected criminality there... I had to
          leave so long ago because it made me sick to my stomach, literally.

          So, now that there is currently minted silver in one-dollar
          denominations, see how one put one's foot into one's mouth?

          > This case began in December 2011. My appeal brief
          > is due next month. The the city attorney has 35 days
          > to respond. Six months, and counting...how much is
          > this going to cost the city to collect on a "$50" expired
          > meter fine, which it will not be able to collect because
          > the appellate court will never let this case be cited,
          > and cannot rule in favor of a judge who imposed a fine
          > in a dollar that does not circulate, nor agree with
          > the city attorney to pay it in "American money."?

          But they got a volunteer to pay it in silver! And currently minted
          Eagles fill the bill for one dollar denominations! In fact, they
          overfill the bill!

          > Emit bills of credit, to me, does not carry the efficacy
          > of challenging states to answer: What is being demanded
          > in the demand "Pay the amount of $XXX," when it is
          > undefined, vague, and impossible to pay.

          They are two separate issues, and one errs making assumptions and
          presumptions and false conclusions.

          The appeal rests upon recorded objections in the record that were
          overruled.

          One thing this shows me is they were willing to go along with the mind
          set of their victim. Reminds me of Neil Young's "kinder gentler machine
          gun hand."

          This is sad, but not hopeless, as nobody involved understands the issues
          apparently. Does the court recognize the new reality imposed by MF
          Global? Ask the court how to compel the conversion of any number of
          electronic blips into ANY "currency" when kleptocracy is the new form of
          government and the republic has been denied one in so many ways.

          Regards,

          FF
        • Michael
          ... Michael s previous post comments = FF comments = ... I did not know that...obviously. Cheers, my good man! Always a delight to hear from you on this
          Message 4 of 11 , May 28 9:39 PM
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            --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "Frog Farmer" <frogfrmr@...> wrote:

            Michael's previous post comments = >>

            FF comments = >

            > > I am unaware of any "state" issuing bills of credit,

            > California.

            I did not know that...obviously.

            Cheers, my good man! Always a delight to hear from
            you on this board.


            > Does anyone have any idea of the multiples of the GDP that are
            > already owed to someone?

            Not sure that it matters. Could not tell you the exact
            multiple, but less than Japan. Owed to someone, or some
            entity?


            > > Via FF, via Merrill Jenkins, ask, What is the current account
            > > of money in the United States today, and how much of that is
            > > a dollar amount?

            > Ow! WOW!!! WHAT a MISQUOTE!!!! Fatal, too, if used in action in the
            > heat of a battle of wits with contenders who may or may not be
            > unarmed!!

            Apologies for that..."amount" should be "quantity!"

            > Unfortunately it was misunderstood and summarized
            > incorrectly. Did one READ Jenkins??

            Yes, read Jenkins, but my retention is not a sharp
            as your attention.

            > It is well known that the geographical area you describe
            > is reputed for its corruption across the board.

            Some things never change.

            > So, how IS anyone ever disqualified in Illinois?

            Judges ignore oath challenges for attorneys and
            themselves. Appellates back them up. The better
            alternative is to make more effective arguments,
            like the money issue...but a bit more effectively
            than I presented here. Still, my efforts have
            worked on several occasions.




            > > One judge, who saw the city attorney had no clue,
            > > asked what I thought a dollar was...

            > Trick question alert! And NOBODY has any clue!


            That would be an inaccurate statement.


            > "Dollars" are not "denominated" "in silver".


            I stand corrected...the money of account in the
            United States shall be EXPRESSED in dollars.



            > But they got a volunteer to pay it in silver! And currently minted
            > Eagles fill the bill for one dollar denominations! In fact, they
            > overfill the bill!

            Not true. The silver eagles are not in general circulation
            to be used as money, nor are they considered as money in
            circulation. Some who use them may do so in a private
            exchange/trade for their current market value, but that is
            not the same as going into any store and paying for goods
            using silver eagles or asking for them as change, or going
            into a bank and offering a one dollar FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE
            in exhange for a one dollar-denominated silver eagle.


            > Does the court recognize the new reality imposed by MF
            > Global?


            Not a germane issue here, so no.


            Cheers to you!

            mn
          • Larry Milby
            To respond to your below comment; Can imaginary stuff be amounted ? Real stuff can. Was there a date hen it became reality that most people could be
            Message 5 of 11 , May 29 6:27 AM
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              To respond to your below comment;
              Can imaginary stuff be "amounted"?  Real stuff can.  Was there a date
              when it became reality that most people could be persuaded to equate a
              negative number with a positive number?  I must have been out fishing
              that day and missed the announcement (like so much other stuff all those
              around me seem to somehow "know" about, yet they all arrived to the show
              much later than I did.)  I am getting more cranky for sure. Does anyone
              have any idea of the multiples of the GDP that are already owed to
              someone?  The blips can never be materialized for delivery in any
              courtroom.
              Oddly enough according to one CPA that lectured across the country in the late 70s and early 1980s speaking to the patriot groups of that day, he claimed to actually have taken part in the change over of accounting in this very regard.  He claimed to be in college at the time when all the text books were suddenly replaced with text books that now teach how to show a IOU note as being accounts actually received and credited to the account in the black and not in the red.  If my memory serves me correct this took place in the early 30s.  I have literally 100s and 100s of VCR tapes from the 70s 80s and 90s and most all of them are worthless knowledge but I have kept them none the less.  The one with the CPA though seemed to be on the up and up, he had his old text books and backed up everything he said with his actual text books.  I don't recall his name but if you are interested and if you are not in a big hurry, I will see if I can find the VHS tape and at least pass on his name to you.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Frog Farmer <frogfrmr@...>
              To: tips_and_tricks <tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 11:20 pm
              Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] Re: On emitting bills of credit aka Federal Reserve Notes :-)

              
              
            • Frog Farmer
              ... It matters because it is unpayable. The point will come in this system where another entire planet s output will be needed just to pay the interest (which
              Message 6 of 11 , May 29 11:07 AM
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                > > Does anyone have any idea of the multiples of the GDP that are
                > > already owed to someone?
                >
                > Not sure that it matters. Could not tell you the exact
                > multiple, but less than Japan. Owed to someone, or some
                > entity?

                It matters because it is unpayable. The point will come in this system
                where another entire planet's output will be needed just to pay the
                interest (which is never printed).

                >
                >
                > > > Via FF, via Merrill Jenkins, ask, What is the current account
                > > > of money in the United States today, and how much of that is
                > > > a dollar amount?
                >
                > > Ow! WOW!!! WHAT a MISQUOTE!!!! Fatal, too, if used in action in the
                > > heat of a battle of wits with contenders who may or may not be
                > > unarmed!!
                >
                > Apologies for that..."amount" should be "quantity!"

                Here's the part that causes me to wince: "What is the current account
                of money in the United States today, and how much of that is a dollar
                amount (or quantity)?"

                The account of money??! I'll tell you how much is a dollar amount: All
                of it! No one could ever answer that question anyway because of the
                delay in reporting.

                The real issue is, WHAT is "the money of account". It's not an issue,
                because it is enshrined in unrepealed law. It seems to be an issue
                with tyrants because the words "of account" were deemed by your betters
                to be superfluous and were left out of the more recent statute law books
                for our more recent arrivals, a.k.a. those born yesterday. Without
                changing the law or the intent, many words have been left out, I guess
                to suit newer generations who cannot read like older ones could.

                > > Unfortunately it was misunderstood and summarized
                > > incorrectly. Did one READ Jenkins??
                >
                > Yes, read Jenkins, but my retention is not a sharp
                > as your attention.

                With all the volumes of words available to retain for ones use, and so
                little time, I like to collect gems that have exceptional value for
                their power to "cause the conversation to break right down" in the words
                of G. Gordon. That question by Jenkins is one of the most powerful when
                used timely and properly. One must understand WHAT the "money" IS. Now
                we can rely on Bill Clinton to provide alternative meanings to that word
                (is).

                > Still, my efforts have
                > worked on several occasions.

                It is a little disconcerting when you win even when you make mistakes.
                It shows how they are just role playing in anticipation of thenext
                paycheck.

                > I stand corrected...the money of account in the
                > United States shall be EXPRESSED in dollars.

                In or of the U.S.??

                The concept of money of account allows for the fact that there are many
                "monies" in circulation among those with the will to do it. So many
                people attach importance to the fact that today a majority of people
                CHOOSE to accept what they accept (discounted private commercial debt
                paper), as though that changes the character of the thing they accept
                from what it still is to what they wished it was like other pieces of
                paper had been in days gone by (such as bearer certificates for allodial
                property).

                > > But they got a volunteer to pay it in silver! And currently minted
                > > Eagles fill the bill for one dollar denominations! In fact, they
                > > overfill the bill!
                >
                > Not true. The silver eagles are not in general circulation
                > to be used as money, nor are they considered as money in
                > circulation.

                By you but not by many others. You might be surprised. The law calls
                for them to be produced in quantities to satisfy public demand. Nobody
                can help what the public demands or fails to demand. If people cared,
                they'd redeem their paychecks for lawful money as provided by law. Some
                know better than to work for a paycheck. The law of money is as it
                always was, with additions and privileges added later for those who take
                advantage of them. But the original one law is still on the books, and
                there has only ever been one definition of the word "dollar" in our
                laws. There have been many weasel words written around those words
                since, to confuse those who are confused. We have the power to be
                unconfused, and need not go along with any democracy that enshrines
                error.

                > Some who use them may do so in a private
                > exchange/trade for their current market value, but that is
                > not the same as going into any store and paying for goods
                > using silver eagles or asking for them as change, or going
                > into a bank and offering a one dollar FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE
                > in exchange for a one dollar-denominated silver eagle.

                You haven't heard about Utah. Check it out.

                http://constitutionaltender.blogspot.com/2011/03/utah-governor-signs-gol
                d-silver-legal.html

                Have you ever gone to the trouble of using US Notes? You do know their
                number is strictly limited but their circulation is mandatory. How can
                newer generations learn about money with the disinformation level so
                high today?

                > > Does the court recognize the new reality imposed by MF
                > > Global?
                >
                > Not a germane issue here, so no.

                If it were my case I'd make it germane. Physical cash only amounts to
                5% if that. Coins another 3-5%. So over 90% of what people think is
                money is merely a bookkeeping entry. And MF Global shows that
                bookkeeping entry repositories cannot be trusted to maintain even
                imaginary account intact. Does the court accept Bitcoin?

                Regards,

                FF
              • Frog Farmer
                ... Ah, The Red & The Black! The intrigue builds... ... We have that in common, though I cannot say it is all worthless. Unreliable but not worthless, as
                Message 7 of 11 , May 30 2:53 AM
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                  > Oddly enough according to one CPA that lectured across the country in
                  > the late 70s and early 1980s speaking to the patriot groups of that
                  > day, he claimed to actually have taken part in the change over of
                  > accounting in this very regard. He claimed to be in college at the
                  > time when all the text books were suddenly replaced with text books
                  > that now teach how to show a IOU note as being accounts actually
                  > received and credited to the account in the black and not in the red.

                  Ah, The Red & The Black! The intrigue builds...

                  > If my memory serves me correct this took place in the early 30s. I
                  > have literally 100s and 100s of VCR tapes from the 70s 80s and 90s and
                  > most all of them are worthless knowledge but I have kept them none the
                  > less.

                  We have that in common, though I cannot say it is all worthless.
                  Unreliable but not worthless, as there were grains of truth everywhere
                  to be discovered. I play the game of identifying and then prioritizing
                  the grains of truth, so they follow the logical sequence instead of
                  saying, "Step 43 is a doozie, I cannot wait to spring it", and then one
                  forgets Step One, or Two, or even Six. You wouldn't believe what my
                  Step One is today, and don't ask because I'm not going to offer it for
                  criticism. Okay, I changed my mind, here's what it is: I take the point
                  of view of the sovereign filling the vacuum in the absence of King
                  George, after his much ballyhooed defeat via July 4, 1776 and I share in
                  experiences that Thomas Jefferson might have enjoyed. I do not claim a
                  status I cannot defend, and I avoid subjecting myself to corporate
                  entities of any stripe, which means I hold those speaking for those
                  entities accountable in the IMOC. That is, if they qualify to be held
                  accountable! Guess how many people don't feel quite ready to proclaim
                  themselves perfectly qualified to do their JOB!

                  Not everyone can do that because they do not have the confidence
                  instilled by "literally 100s and 100s of VCR tapes from the 70s 80s and
                  90s and most all of them are worthless knowledge" when taken as panaceas
                  or silver bullets, or whatever that hapless discoverer thought was valid
                  when he made his or her tape. There are too many words on paper that
                  people are worrying about, while mere pieces of paper are stealing their
                  lives, liberties and properties and their children's future as we speak
                  as the biggest ongoing crime in history continues as most are unaware it
                  is in progress, or even of the true nature of it. I can't wait until
                  the final movie on it comes out!

                  > The one with the CPA though seemed to be on the up and up, he
                  > had his old text books and backed up everything he said with his
                  > actual text books. I don't recall his name but if you are interested
                  > and if you are not in a big hurry, I will see if I can find the VHS
                  > tape and at least pass on his name to you.

                  I am VERY interested in this, as this has been an ongoing question with
                  me for years - HOW and WHY don't they see the difference between a
                  "HAVE" (Black) and a "HAVE NOT" (Red)?? Oh, right, their word is as
                  good as gold! No, they have been outed for those paying attention. And
                  they have been thwarted individually, instantly, by those who situated
                  themselves atop some special words they picked out of "literally 100s
                  and 100s of VCR tapes from the 70s 80s and 90s and most all of them are
                  worthless knowledge" BUT Truth rings out and shines in the dark! I
                  don't like playing that paper game anymore, so I commence my best
                  defense (which is a good offense) in the Initial Moment Of
                  Confrontation. I do not wait or delay making my imperial demands of all
                  rights at all times for any cause or reason. I do announce that the
                  IMOC has begun, as a courtesy to young maleducated well-meaning paycheck
                  anticipators in fear of losing their employment, and this is often all
                  that is necessary to secure my rights and comfort, and their respect and
                  even assistance, neighbor!

                  -1 = +1

                  Zero must be the only time it is true.

                  Just my opinion, as I did flunk algebra. I was good with geometry
                  though!

                  Regards,

                  FF
                • Frog Farmer
                  ... When I spent five straight years in court, all my wins contained errors that only I or a friend discovered later. My opponents were unprepared, and later
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 30 3:01 AM
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                    > > So, how IS anyone ever disqualified in Illinois?
                    >
                    > Judges ignore oath challenges for attorneys and
                    > themselves. Appellates back them up. The better
                    > alternative is to make more effective arguments,
                    > like the money issue...but a bit more effectively
                    > than I presented here. Still, my efforts have
                    > worked on several occasions.

                    When I spent five straight years in court, all my wins contained errors
                    that only I or a friend discovered later. My opponents were unprepared,
                    and later we found out we were being used as trainers for newbies. It
                    was fun, but I didn't know then what I know now. Now my time is better
                    spent so I end stuff toot sweet. Sometimes I extend my play when bored
                    or the subject seems promising as an ally neighbor type. I hear there
                    is one more man in this area sharing my outlook, but we haven't met yet.
                    It's good to be the King (I'm collecting minions for the coming bad
                    times)!

                    Regards,

                    FF
                  • Coalbunny
                    If I may add some insight to this.... ... This isn t a good description of the quote I snipped, but please read it anyhow. In my experience in this matter, I
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 30 10:52 PM
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                      If I may add some insight to this....

                      On 5/29/2012 12:07 PM, Frog Farmer wrote:
                      >
                      >>> Does anyone have any idea of the multiples of the GDP that are
                      >>> already owed to someone?
                      >> Not sure that it matters. Could not tell you the exact
                      >> multiple, but less than Japan. Owed to someone, or some
                      >> entity?
                      > It matters because it is unpayable. The point will come in this system
                      > where another entire planet's output will be needed just to pay the
                      > interest (which is never printed).
                      This isn't a good description of the quote I snipped, but please read it anyhow.
                      In my experience in this matter, I have done contract work for the US Government- Dept. of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management. I engaged in a similar discussion with a sovereign citizen back in '97. He said the same stuff, or close to it. The money I was paid really wasn't money as it had no value. No gold backing it up, thus no value, thus worthless pieces of scrap paper. I laughed at him. Those may have been worthless scraps of paper, but those worthless scraps of paper bought me food and paid my bills. And those aren't exactly imaginary. Where did he get his truck & camper? Oh, he traded for them. Where did he get his fuel from? Ohhhh! He paid for them using....the same worthless pieces of paper. Guess they aren't so worthless now, now are they?



                      > You haven't heard about Utah. Check it out.
                      >
                      > http://constitutionaltender.blogspot.com/2011/03/utah-governor-signs-gol
                      > d-silver-legal.html
                      >
                      > Have you ever gone to the trouble of using US Notes? You do know their
                      > number is strictly limited but their circulation is mandatory. How can
                      > newer generations learn about money with the disinformation level so
                      > high today?
                      >
                      I live in Utah and no one will take anything that isn't cash, check or
                      credit. I have yet to find anyone taking gold or silver.
                      c
                    • Larry Milby
                      Every thing I have studied and learned over the past 40 years can be summed up in two words, Notice Pleading if one does not understand notice pleading and
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 31 9:21 AM
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                        Every thing I have studied and learned over the past 40 years can be summed up in two words, "Notice Pleading" if one does not
                        understand notice pleading and the presumption of facts and how these presumptions are used against us and how to defend we
                        will lose and continue to lose every case we ever fight.  There is a reason CPAs are licensed, they are breaking the law by permission.
                        A license is a permit to do that which is unlawful a trespass or a tort.  So what is unlawful about what a licensed CPA does?  Calls black ink credits and red ink black.
                      • Michael
                        ... I trust you are familiar with the card game, Old Maid. Your insights are predicated on a singular belief, that because you can make purchases for goods
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 31 3:28 PM
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                          --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Coalbunny <coalbunny@...> wrote:

                          > Guess they aren't so worthless now, now are they?

                          I trust you are familiar with the card game, Old Maid.

                          Your "insights" are predicated on a singular belief,
                          that because you can make purchases for goods and
                          services with the issued fiat, it has value.

                          Back in the 1940s, one could have purchased gasoline
                          for 12 cents the gallon. Today, let's call it $4
                          the gallon. The same gallon [equivalent] of gas,
                          but the cost is several hundred percent dearer.

                          If one saved their fiat from the 1940s, until today,
                          you can see have they have depreciated in purchasing
                          power.

                          In the 1940s, for an ounce of gold, one could have
                          purchased around 340 gallons of gas. If one saved
                          that same ounce of gold, today it can purchase around
                          380 gallons of gas.

                          Not only has the ounce of gold held its purchasing
                          power over the same span of time, it has slightly
                          increased in purchasing power. The purchasing power
                          of current fiat has decreased by close to 50% in
                          just the past 20 years alone.

                          Putting that aside, what many recognize and consider
                          today's monetary system is, and has been a fraud,
                          for well over a half century.

                          Just a few years ago, one could have purchased silver
                          and gold for $20 and $800 [fiat measured], respectively.
                          Just a few year even before that, one could have
                          purchased silver and gold for $4 and $250 the ounce.

                          The ounce of silver and/or gold is still the same.
                          Intead of paying $4 for silver or $250 for gold, the
                          ounce, it now takes $28 fiats and $1,500 fiats to
                          purchase that same ounces.

                          There is a statement to be made comparing what was
                          stated as "not so worthless now" to what has
                          increased in worth over the same period[s].

                          The corporate federal government has created trillions
                          of more "dollars," via computer blips. For now, the
                          unparalled increases in "dollars" has been held within
                          the failed banking system, which is why there has not
                          been rampant inflation.

                          The Rotschild model is quickly coming apart at the
                          seams. It seems if one continues to maintain a
                          belief in the purchasing power of the imagination,
                          when reality goes mainstream, all that has been
                          imagined will have disappeared. It will be replaced
                          by shock and awe that few could have ever imagined,
                          when that imagination ruled.

                          Cognitive dissonance reigns...for most.



                          > I live in Utah and no one will take anything that
                          > isn't cash, check or credit.

                          Cognitive dissonance...sorry, I just said that.
                          A million wrongs will never amend a single right.
                          Lemmings run in numbers. One can select their own
                          trite saying.


                          > I have yet to find anyone taking gold or silver.

                          If you have not found one does not necessarily
                          mean they do not exist, but I can say that those
                          who do take gold and silver are not imaginary.

                          Cheers...


                          For anyone who might say, "You can't eat gold,"
                          the comeback response would be, "When is the
                          last time you ate a fiat 'dollar'?"
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