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RE: [tips_and_tricks] Return of property tax bills.

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  • Frog Farmer
    ... They must be counting on numbers of others to join in then. ... Oh, you re right about the attitude. But those who cannot do more can slow the enemy down
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 6, 2010
      > "For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would start a fight
      > they can't possibly win..."

      They must be counting on numbers of others to join in then.

      > The winning of any
      > fight starts with this 'I can' attitude. Those who think 'they can't'
      > best not go.

      Oh, you're right about the attitude. But those who cannot do more can
      slow the enemy down some, and every little bit helps in my own opinion.
      If everyone would just fight their tickets and buy some silver every
      week, things might straighten out like dominoes falling. That'll never
      happen though. I remember the days when EVERYONE knew silver was money.

      > I almost ended with a smiley, but can't. This is a very
      > serious matter. Bear

      There are so many!!

      Aaaaaghghghghgh!

      Regards,

      FF

      P.S. I love you, Bear!

      P.P.S. No, I'm not gay.
    • Jake
      ... By filing more frivolous lawsuits?  Doesn t make sense to me. I read the Complaint & motions filed in the Michigan property tax case & it certainly falls
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 6, 2010
        > "For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would start a fight they can't possibly win..."

        > They must be counting on numbers of others to join in then.

        By filing more frivolous lawsuits?  Doesn't make sense to me. I read the Complaint & motions filed in the Michigan property tax case & it certainly falls into the category of "frivolous".

        > The winning of any fight starts with this 'I can' attitude. Those who think 'they can't' best not go.

        I agree, but you have to have a valid issue / argument to begin with.

        And my favorite quotes from Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" most assuredly apply:


        He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

        If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

        If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will
        also suffer a defeat.

        If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will
        also suffer a defeat.

        If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.

        To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.


        ~ ~ ~
      • Greg Knapp
        We all love you, Mr. Frog Farmer! Greg Knapp 972-333-4466 Regards, FF P.S. I love you, Bear! P.P.S. No, I m not gay.
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 6, 2010
          We all love you, Mr. Frog Farmer!



          Greg Knapp

          972-333-4466



          Regards,

          FF

          P.S. I love you, Bear!

          P.P.S. No, I'm not gay.
        • Frog Farmer
          ... I was only speaking in general terms and did not have that case in mind when I said it. I ll buy that most cases today are frivolous. ... I have to tell
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 6, 2010
            Jake wrote:

            > > "For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would start a
            > fight they can't possibly win..."
            >
            > > They must be counting on numbers of others to join in then.
            >
            > By filing more frivolous lawsuits? Doesn't make sense to me. I read
            > the Complaint & motions filed in the Michigan property tax case & it
            > certainly falls into the category of "frivolous".

            I was only speaking in general terms and did not have that case in mind
            when I said it. I'll buy that most cases today are frivolous.

            > > The winning of any fight starts with this 'I can' attitude. Those
            > who think 'they can't' best not go.
            >
            > I agree, but you have to have a valid issue / argument to begin with.

            I have to tell you, I have won several cases the wrong way and only
            found out I was wrong later on. So I have to say that if you really
            want something, don't give up trying to get it. A positive attitude is
            a lot more productive of good things than is a negative attitude.

            > And my favorite quotes from Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" most assuredly
            > apply:
            >
            > He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

            Check!

            > If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every
            > battle.

            Check!

            > If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you
            > will also suffer a defeat.
            >
            > If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you
            > will also suffer a defeat.

            That one was important enough to say twice!

            > If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result
            > of a hundred battles.

            Really... been there; done that! There are lots of battles; lots of
            enemy sets. So many enemies; so little time! What's a warrior to do?!

            > To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the
            > opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

            Can't argue with that! So, who's your favorite enemy right now? Soros?

            I am watching a house of cards fall, recorded in super high definition
            with zoom and all the effects! Two of my favorite info warriors are Max
            Keiser and Stacy Herbert! Max is a self-made billionaire, Stacy is his
            sidekick, and together they are so productive it is hard to imagine how
            they do it, what with all the fun they have while doing it!

            If I were King, Max and Stacy would be on my kingdom news hour
            broadcast. Here are links to their sites:

            http://maxkeiser.com/

            http://www.youtube.com/user/maxkeisertv?

            He explains the Big Picture Fraud, and then we can reference it where
            necessary here to defend ourselves from The Pretenders.

            Regards,

            FF
          • Jake
            ... Nope, I don t give a flip about him. But I sure enjoyed seeing CitiMortgage settle out of court with one of my guys (he walked away with a check for
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 8, 2010
              >> To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

              > Can't argue with that! So, who's your favorite enemy right now? Soros?


              Nope, I don't give a flip about him.

              But I sure enjoyed seeing CitiMortgage settle out of court with one of my guys (he walked away with a check for $10,000 & the $122,000 mortgage is wiped off the books as if it never existed), a driver's license case against me (I don't have one) get dismissed, IRS problems end, we've got cases in both State & federal courts regarding IRS & State Dept. of Revenue issues & mortgage issues too.  So the answer to your question is State & federal tax agencies & mortgage companies.
               

              Beat 'em @ their own game!  I won't guarantee you can do it every time & you darn sure won't if you don't learn their procedural rules, but with enough "due diligence" it is possible.  We've won far more cases than we've lost & my goal is to keep things like tax issues in administrative procedure so you never see the inside of a courtroom - that's worked over 90% of the time.  Use their own documents & procedures against them.  But of course you have to know how . . . 

               

              ~ ~ ~

            • Frog Farmer
              ... Good for you! It s a dirty job, but somebody has to do it! I won the drivers license case three times, three different ways. It was my educational
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 8, 2010
                Jake mentioned:

                > But I sure enjoyed seeing CitiMortgage settle out of court with one of
                > my guys (he walked away with a check for $10,000 & the $122,000
                > mortgage is wiped off the books as if it never existed), a driver's
                > license case against me (I don't have one) get dismissed, IRS problems
                > end, we've got cases in both State & federal courts regarding IRS &
                > State Dept. of Revenue issues & mortgage issues too. So the answer to
                > your question is State & federal tax agencies & mortgage companies.

                Good for you! It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it!

                I won the drivers license case three times, three different ways. It
                was my educational process. My personal favorite topic revolves around
                the money issues. "If you're not having fun, you're not doing it
                right." - George Gordon

                > Beat 'em @ their own game! I won't guarantee you can do it every time
                > & you darn sure won't if you don't learn their procedural rules, but
                > with enough "due diligence" it is possible. We've won far more cases
                > than we've lost & my goal is to keep things like tax issues in
                > administrative procedure so you never see the inside of a courtroom -
                > that's worked over 90% of the time.

                I agree that too many people fatally skip over the administrative level.

                Who is "we" and where did you find like-minded people in your area?!

                Speaking of 90% of the time, that is the percentage of convictions due
                to admissions and confessions! Coincidence? YOU DECIDE!

                > Use their own documents &
                > procedures against them. But of course you have to know how .

                Isn't that easy enough? You read the same stuff they read, right?
                Maybe a little more! I have fun asking them to identify the laws they
                will be obeying! So, you find they can follow their own stuff? Where I
                am, NO WAY!!!

                So best wishes to you in your endeavors!

                Regards,

                FF
              • Jake
                Frog Farmer sez: I won the drivers license case three times, three different ways. It was my educational process. We ve had some interesting twists & turns
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 9, 2010
                  Frog Farmer sez: "I won the drivers license case three times, three different ways. It was my educational process."
                  We've had some interesting twists & turns on that issue too, I lost one by not being prepared (my own fault), had other cases dismissed & I've got a Rule 5.1 motion in federal court now - that's a constitutional challenge to a state statute - what it boils down to is the requirement to have a valid SSN card to get a NC driver's license & this question, which I've never seen raised before - what authority does a state legislature have to make me (or anyone) join with a voluntary federal "benefits" program to get a state privilege?  The answer is simple - no such authority exists.  But no ruling has been made on my motion & while by Rule, the state attny. general can intervene within 60 days, that's long passed & not a peep from the state.
                  The Social Security system is voluntary & I even have 3 letters from S.S. Admin. officials that all start out the same way - "There is no law which requires anyone to get a social security number to live or work in the United States, or just for the purpose of having one."  One goes on to say, "Of course, a person with no social security number would have no taxable income."  HELLO !!!  But back on point - how can the state legislature make me (or anyone) get a SSN to get a driver's license?  They can't & I've only found one case on that issue, from the Tulare Co. superior court in California & it doesn't set a "legal precedent". Long story short, the court held that having or not having a SSN has NOTHING to do with whether or not you can "operate a motor vehicle" safely on the public highways & they ordered the state to renew the guy's license - he'd had one for years & had a clean driving record, but once they changed the law & started requiring a
                  SSN, since he wouldn't get one, they wouldn't renew his license.  That case is People of the State of California v. Pyatt, Tulare County Superior Court, No. 65724 (2001).
                    >  Who is "we" and where did you find like-minded people in your area?!
                  Long story behind that, but in brief, when I moved to this general area in 1991 & started looking things up @ the university law library just to satisfy my own curiosity about certain issues, I happened to meet some other folks who were doing the same thing.  I never in a million years expected the study to "snowball" & turn into a vocation, but it did & there are a few folks who still study daily as I have ever since Jan., 1991.  We've seen every "Patriot" argument there is, all the "Strawman", "Admiralty", "UCC", etc. ad nauseum stuff & while some are more interested in legal theory, all I care about is what actually works.  And we know from experience that what worked last time may not this time - "they" will change the statutes / regulations when some tactic you developed works too well - believe me!  
                     > Speaking of 90% of the time, that is the percentage of convictions due to admissions and confessions! Coincidence? YOU DECIDE!
                  No, it's certainly not coincidence, one of the biggest errors people make is making "affirmative defenses" where they take the burden of proof upon themselves & unfortunately, most people who contact me for help are already in a lot of trouble which they could have avoided if they knew more about who they were dealing with.  One key is to flip that burden of proof over onto "them" & as you have said, doing things such as filing a motion in a court case gives them jurisdiction over you - you can't "move" a court to do anything unless the court has the jurisdiction to do it & by filing a motion, you just said it does.
                     >> Use their own documents & procedures against them. But of course you have to know how . . .
                     > Isn't that easy enough? You read the same stuff they read, right? Maybe a little more!
                  Absolutely - and a LOT more!  Like look up every single case that's ever been decided on issues like the ones in your situation.  Whether you like the court rulings or not is irrelevant, but you will get to see the arguments the other side will make & how a court is likely to rule on the issues.  I study cases where people lost as much if not more than those where people won - so I can see what the people who lost did wrong & not make the same mistakes! Those who like to live in a fantasy world where administrative procedures work the way they're supposed to, where judges rule the way they should, etc. are virtually guaranteed to lose & especially if they don't learn the procedural rules & follow them very carefully - whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant - but if you don't follow them you will lose. 
                  For example, I bought the Annotated Rules of North Carolina & you can get the same type books for any State - the Annotated version not only has the Rules, but if there's ever been a "legal precedent" case about the meaning or application of any given rule, such cases will be listed - a brief description of each case & the full citation so you can look it up if it applies to your situation.  I also have the General Statutes, Annotated, which are arranged the same way.  You can bet your opponent is using such books & if you don't, that's your fault.  
                  What it boils down to is has the issue I'm raising been raised before?  And/or has the argument I intend to make ever been made before?  If so, how did the courts rule on those issues / arguments?  Again, it matters not whether you agree with the rulings - but you most assuredly need to know what they have been or you're "toast" before you even start.  
                  ~ ~ ~
                • BOB GREGORY
                  *There are some good principles enunciated in the message by Jake, and I m not knocking him or others so much as I am interested in dealing with what this
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 9, 2010
                    There are some good principles enunciated in the message by Jake, and I'm not knocking him or others so much as I am interested in dealing with what this group is supposed to be about.

                    Look at these quotes.  You see others along the same lines from participants in the group. 


                    "I won the drivers license case three times, three different ways. It was my educational process."

                    "I even have 3 letters from S.S. Admin. officials that all start out the same way - "There is no law which requires anyone to get a social security number to live or work in the United States, or just for the purpose of having one."  One goes on to say, "Of course, a person with no social security number would have no taxable income.""

                    "Use their own documents & procedures against them. But of course you have to know how ... "


                    Since the group is supposed to consist of "tips and tricks," don't you think that we should, to the extent possible, avoid "hints, allusions and vague suggestions?"

                    If three different drivers license cases were won three different ways, wouldn't the "Tips and Tricks" principle be to actually tell people about the cases and the ways used to wind them?

                    If there are three letters with significant information about Social Security are in a person's possession, would it not be a good "tip or "trick" to make .pdf copies of them and include them as attachments or post them in the documents section?

                    If it is a good plan to use the government's own documents and procedures against them and you have to know how, would it not be a nice thing to discuss how to do it and provide some examples?

                    I'm not picking on just these particular comments but using them as examples of comments that appear fairly regularly in posts to the group.  One could gain the impression that some participants have a certain proprietary feeling about the methods and approaches they have found that are successful and are willing to talk about their successes but not to share specifically how they were achieved.

                    If you have a useful document, share it.  If you know one or a long list of on point court citations for a topic, quote them or provide links to them.  If you found a good way to structure a pleading, redact private information and post it.  If you know a good way to disqualify a judge, provide specific information.  Only through an approach of sharing what works and eliminating the use of things that don't work can progress be made across a broad front.            







                    On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Jake <jake_28079@...> wrote:
                     
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