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Re: [tips_and_tricks] When GMAC goes Bankrupt

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  • Steve
    Steve Gardner et al: There is an excellent book available entitled Web of Debt by Brown. It is the most excellent narrative and history about the debt/Fed
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 10, 2009
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      Steve Gardner et al:

      There is an excellent book available entitled 'Web of Debt' by Brown.
      It is the most excellent narrative and history about the debt/Fed mess
      we are in that I have ever read! I highly recommend everyone get a copy
      and actually READ it! It explains things much clearer than Modern Money
      Mechanics (for the average layperson).

      Steve

      Steve Gardner wrote:
      >
      > Frank,
      >
      > You are right on!! It's a/k/a/ "Fractional Banking", hence, why we are
      > in the mess we are in. But I digress..the real purpose was to attach
      > "Modern Money
      >
      > .

      --
      "Where the people fear the government, you have tyranny; where the government fears the people, you have liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
    • Levi Philos
      Modern Money Mechanics should be read along with another fed publication THE TWO FACES OF DEBT. Both are found in PDF format at the Reinventing Money Library.
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 11, 2009
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        Modern Money Mechanics should be read along with another fed publication THE TWO FACES OF DEBT.

        Both are found in PDF format at the Reinventing Money Library.

        http://www.reinventingmoney.com/library.html

        However, I actually recommend that the interested reader obtain and read the two Dr Popp books first.

        Both are short and print to something like 38 pages. As pocket size books, they were under 100 pages.

        After that, the Riegel books and papers which are also found there and at: www.newapproachtofreedom.info
        "Until we realize that our money power is our sovereign power we cannot act as sovereigns"  
        E.C. Riegel.

        Levi Philos
      • Frank Mumma
        Hi Frank G., Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets. I used to think (20 years ago) when I was new to the freedom movement that there had to be a silver
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 11, 2009
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          Hi Frank G.,

          Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets. I used to think (20 years ago) when I was new to the "freedom movement" that there had to be a silver bullet based upon the teachings, proclamations of various "so-called" guru's that, touted their "newly" discovered wisdom to slay the "evil dragon"- all pun intended! I, have however placed my reliance on the sincere and continual study of the United States Constitution for these united States of America, as interpreted by the founding fathers also, statute law, and the relevant case law that addresses the particular issue at hand.

          I also realize that due to the increasingly corrupt nature of those public servants (aka-state actors) in office, it is sometimes tempting to want to think and/or hope for a "silver bullet" solution to our struggle for justice and liberty. Therefore, we as like minded individuals MUST continue to educate and edify ourselves and our posterity to the degree of being MORE able to properly identify and argue with specificity, our grievances based upon sound legal principals tried and tested in both law and case precedence. Keep you head UP and do NOT surrender!! We will overcome!

          Yours for liberty!
          Frank Mumma
          AKA- Rebel for the Anointed One
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: frank gallimore
          To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:56 PM
          Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] When GMAC goes Bankrupt



          Hi Steve & Frank and Group,

          Some of us have been aware of this "fraud" for quite awhile now. My question is:

          where is the "silver bullet"?

          Many have marched down this road to exercise upon our constitution and other methods only to realize obstacles and road blocks and sometimes imprisonment. What can we as homeowners do?

          Thank you,

          Frank G.


          On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Steve Gardner <TheTravelGuru@...> wrote:

          Frank,

          You are right on!! It's a/k/a/ "Fractional Banking", hence, why we are in the mess we are in. But I digress..the real purpose was to attach "Modern Money Mechanics", which explains the whole theft in clear languge to those whom may be interested. Published originaly by the Fed Res Bk of Chicago, they stopped printing it, but I have a copy. Here it is, it is a bit of a read, but it will set u free if u so choose.

          Enjoy people,

          -Steve
        • frank gallimore
          Thank you Frank M. You are so right. Constantly educating ourselves and informing others is probably the best method of eventually one day being able to make
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 11, 2009
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            Thank you Frank M.

            You are so right. Constantly educating ourselves and informing others is
            probably the best method of eventually one day being able to make "change".
            Being a voice in the wilderness is becoming more clear to many as they see
            the truth's of the situation unfold. I would also like to add that G.
            Edward Griffin is a good resource for "change".
            http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=home

            Carry forward all my brothers and sisters of the Republic, may it one day
            come to fruition!!

            My Best,

            Frank G.




            On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Frank Mumma <fmumma@...> wrote:

            > Hi Frank G.,
            >
            > Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets. I used to think (20 years ago)
            > when I was new to the "freedom movement" that there had to be a silver
          • mn_chicago
            ... True. What must be done is to drive a wooden stake into individual efforts to defeat the entrenched status quo. Sunday 11 January 2006 One can see the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 11, 2009
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              > Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets.

              > Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets.

              True. What must be done is to drive a wooden
              stake into individual efforts to defeat the
              entrenched status quo.

              Sunday 11 January 2006

              One can see the dilemma between the thinking
              of a falconcrest, who represents what most
              people think and believe, vs the reality as
              has been revealed in the last several posts.

              The final nail in the coffin of the US Republic
              came in the the Fed Reserve Act of 1913,
              passed on 23 December, a time when the
              legislators opposing the Act were home on vacation,
              a time when no legislation was passed as an
              unspoken rule, to enable legislators time off to
              go home and be with their families.

              Corruption never takes a vacation.

              The Act was modeled after that of the bank of
              the Third Reich, and the first head of the Fed
              was a German citizen, Warburg, brought over
              to this country to put the take-over plan into
              action.

              One has to understand the insidious nature of
              the Fed and its Rothschild-like intent to take
              over the currency and corrupt the country.
              That is why the US went bankruot in 1933, under
              the direction of socialist Roosevelt, a boob
              held as a hero.

              Back to mortgage fraud. Read your note. It
              says, "In return for a loan I have received,
              I promise to pay xxx,xxx US dollars..."

              The article, "a" is non-specific, see Black's
              Law, versus the article "the," which is
              specific.

              The promise to pay x amount of dollars is NOT
              for "the loan" received, it is for "a loan"
              issued. The fraud is in that little, unspecified
              article, "a."

              What is "a" loan? Why does it not read, "In
              return for THE loan i have received, I promise
              to pay...."???

              "a loan" consists of a computer entry, aka no
              consideration. "a loan" requires the repayment
              of US dollars, [that in itself another issue].

              The note is securitized and sold in order to
              raise the money used to fund the loan. In effect,
              the signature is the borrower's consideration
              used to "loan" to the borrower, in effect, his
              own money. Individuals cannot securitize their
              own signature by selling it to investors. Only
              banks can do that, aka stealing.

              Where in the note agreement does it say that the
              lender can endorse your note on the back, "pay
              to the bearer,"? [the only kind of endorsement
              allowed by UCC to make the instrument negotiable.]
              That was not a part of the bargain.

              When confronted with forclosure, one must DEMAND
              of the plaintiff, [not always the holder in due
              course, aka the only one that is authorized to sue]
              DEMAND that the original note be produced in order
              to determine if that is the borrower's original
              signature.

              The defendant in foreclosure is entitled to see
              the original note, front AND back, to make sure
              it has not been altered, as it was shortly after
              the "signing" ceremony. This demand can only be
              made within the 30 days tiem in which one has to
              respond to the complaint to foreclose, or a default
              is granted, and everything in the complaint is
              tken to be true, true or not.

              You got lucky with these answers, falconcrest.
              Turn your judgmental ignorance into some good
              with this information.


              In general, what can be done? Help enlighten others
              by spreading information and knowledge acquired.
              Tell anyone facing foreclosure, for instance, share
              the information contained in these last several
              posts.

              That opening line, "For 'a loan' that I have received,
              etc," is a key indicator of fraud. The securitization
              of the note is the first step in the process.

              Within the next week, I plan to post on how to fight
              in court, with teeth, depending upon one's state.

              mn
            • mn_chicago
              Correction. The Fed Reserve Act was modeled after the statutes of the Reichbank, not the Third Reich, a model used throughout Europe, as well.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 11, 2009
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                Correction.

                The Fed Reserve Act was modeled after the
                statutes of the Reichbank, not the Third Reich,
                a model used throughout Europe, as well.
              • Frog Farmer
                ... I agree, BUT... There IS a First Step . In fact, every such first step I identify only prods me to discover an earlier one. I see SO MANY people go down
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 12, 2009
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                  > Unfortunately, there are NO silver bullets. I used to think (20 years
                  > ago) when I was new to the "freedom movement" that there had to be a
                  > silver bullet based upon the teachings, proclamations of various "so-
                  > called" guru's that, touted their "newly" discovered wisdom to slay
                  > the "evil dragon"- all pun intended! I, have however placed my
                  > reliance on the sincere and continual study of the United States
                  > Constitution for these united States of America, as interpreted by the
                  > founding fathers also, statute law, and the relevant case law that
                  > addresses the particular issue at hand.

                  I agree, BUT... There IS a "First Step". In fact, every such first step
                  I identify only prods me to discover an earlier one. I see SO MANY
                  people go down in flames because they do not seek out and try to take
                  that first step, and then they really do not take the next ones in
                  proper order either. Some may even work backwards, or only take the
                  comfortable steps, or the ones their friends take, etc.

                  > I also realize that due to the increasingly corrupt nature of those
                  > public servants (aka-state actors) in office, it is sometimes tempting
                  > to want to think and/or hope for a "silver bullet" solution to our
                  > struggle for justice and liberty. Therefore, we as like minded
                  > individuals MUST continue to educate and edify ourselves and our
                  > posterity to the degree of being MORE able to properly identify and
                  > argue with specificity, our grievances based upon sound legal
                  > principals tried and tested in both law and case precedence.

                  I guess that excludes "the majority" from having a chance then. I've
                  been reading more and more about Americans' declining literacy. To do
                  as you say we need to do, we first need to start teaching the kids to
                  read and write proper English, including spelling and grammar. How do
                  you do that? The NWO folks are getting what they paid for in the public
                  schools. Yet Sylvan was able to teach a totally illiterate 18 year-old
                  how to read in less than 72 hours. A lot of kids see literacy as a
                  badge of being on the enemy's side too.

                  When I cared what the goons thought, I used to carry a grammar with me
                  so I could explain some of the basics for them. Now, my plans for
                  post-capture behavior actually have me keeping everyone in the dark
                  until I meet "Mr. Deep Pockets" who is going to pay for my
                  inconvenience, most likely a disqualifiable actor pretending to be a
                  judge.

                  > Keep you head UP and do NOT surrender!! We will overcome!

                  Absolutely, and have some fun while you are at it! These people arrayed
                  against you are in sad shape, demoralized, paranoid, unhealthy, and deep
                  inside they know they are lying to themselves about all those lies we
                  stopped believing. Remind them of Ceausescu and the Romanian police's
                  behavior in the days following his execution. Have them Google it!

                  > Yours for liberty!
                  > Frank Mumma
                  > AKA- Rebel for the Anointed One

                  I like your title there, Frank!

                  Regards,

                  FF
                • Steve Gardner
                  Here is the Silver Bullet!! SIMPLY PUT when you sign a Mortgage NOTE you, the borrower, created money according to the Uniform Com­mercial Code (UCC). This
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
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                    Here is the Silver Bullet!!
                     
                    SIMPLY PUT when you sign a Mortgage NOTE you, the borrower, created money according to the Uniform Com­mercial Code (UCC). This NOTE is deposited on the bank books just like you would deposit cash allowing you to write a bank check. The bank got your money (NOTE) interest free to exchange it for bank checks and charge your money back to you at interest. The banks balance sheet proves it when you ask, where is the cash?

                    U.S. House Join Resolution 192 (HJR 192) ( **SEE PERTINANT CLAUSE BELOW) and UCC 1-­201 (24) simply allows the borrower to discharge (sus­pend) the mortgage NOTE by simply creating another promissory NOTE and presenting it to the lender. All in­terest stops per UCC 3-802. Apply your monthly pay­ments to principal, not interest.

                    If you are uninformed, the bank will have you work and labor to pay them back $250,000 of interest and principal on a $100,000 mortgage. They use your mortgage NOTE interest free, so you can work to give them BACK $250,000.

                    This banking practice is prohibited in a famous court case FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF MONTGOMERY V JEROME DALY.  This one is the best of the best.

                    Credit is a "promise to pay". Using your mortgage note to create checkbook money, banks have violated the following court decisions:

                    School Dist. v U.S. National Bank Young v Hembree (read conclusion #9)

                    Norton Grocery Co. v Peoples National Bank American Express Co. v Citizens State Bank  This one is really good!

                    National Bank of Commerce v Atkinson  Google this case and the result is this: http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F1/0055/001/00000481.txt

                    more can be found here:

                     http://educationcenter2000.com/legal/TILA_case_law.html

                     

                    Essentially, the bank had you sign a NOTE to create the money they loaned to you. What they and your attorney failed to tell you (lawfully disclose) was they were creating it out of thin air and then proceed to charge you interest. This applies to CREDIT CARDS AS WELL! THEY ARE ALL IN VIOLATION OF THE Truth In Lending Act. THEY CANNOT LEND YOU CREDIT!! Since this is not disclosed it consitutes "Breach of Contract". http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/breach.htm 

                     

                    So now you now may save interest by simply creating another NOTE to discharge the first NOTE. Use their law to your advantage.

                    Once the bank receives the promissory NOTE they have three choices:

                     

                    1) They can endorse the back of the NOTE and demand payment. You hope they do. According to HJR 192 you just create another NOTE to replace the old one. That is all the banks did to you, just do it back to them.

                     

                    2) If the bank refused your promissory note, the debt is paid in full. "A DEBT TENDERED (by promissory note) AND REFUSED (by lender) IS A DEBT PAID AT LAW" COHEN V VIRGINIA 6 Wheat 264. This is another famous Court Case. It is also "breach of Contract" see above.

                     

                    3) If the banks keeps the promissory note - pretends it does not exist and remains silent, they committed a felony per another famous court case (U.S. V TWEEL 550 f. 2d 297.299-300 (1977). Also, Then take into account the case of McNally v. U.S., 483 U.S. 350, 371-372, Quoting U.S. v Holzer, 816 F.2d. 304, 307 Fraud in its elementary common law sense of deceit… includes the deliberate concealment of material information in a setting of fiduciary obligation.  A public official is a fiduciary toward the public,… and if he deliberately conceals material information from them he is guilty of fraud.

                    Today, if one stops paying monthly bank payments, the bank will illegally foreclose, even though your mortgage is legally discharged (suspended). If you make a mistake in FORECLOSURE court - you lose. Some of the fees of the foreclosure attorneys are sued to elect the judge. We do not suggest you stop your monthly payments and risk your property. Even though legally one can pay a NOTE with another NOTE, you still owe the principal. People make their monthly payments apply to principal so their NOTE is eventually zeroed out.

                    THE GOAL is to inform enough people, so we can use the TRUTH to set us free from banks that used our IGNORANCE to take our wealth from us. Once ten percent of the people know the truth, PUBLIC PRESSURE will be enough to help everyone be debt free in a short time. 

                    The mortgage NOTES that back up our checks today will be exchanges froM non interest bearing promissory NOTES. The checks will still be good. You will keep the interest - not the banks. In the future, the banks will have to follow the law and not CREATE money and loan it out at interest.

                    THE LAW IS ON YOUR SIDE. SMART PEOPLE USE THE LAW TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AND STOP INTEREST, HAVING THEIR MONTHLY PAYMENTS APPLY TO PRINCIPAL ONLY.

                    ASK YOUR ATTORNEY WHY HE/SHE DID NOT EXPLAIN THESE LAWS, IN FACT, SUE HIM/HER!!!!

                    Tell a banker you want information on loans. If the banker refuses to sign this affidavit, you will know everything you need to know!

                    AFFIDAVIT

                    This bank never used a borrower's mortgage note to create the checkbook money it loans out to borrowers. This bank has never loaned credit or used credit money. This bank is not involved in check kiting (checks written without one dollar on deposit at the bank for every dollar in checking, savings, and certificates of deposits.) This bank does not violate our Founding Fathers' U.S. Constitution or the court decisions in this brochure. If the banker signing this affidavit lies, the loan agreement becomes null and void, the borrower keeps the funds issued, and all loans this bank' issued become null and void.

                     

                    Name/Print:

                    Title:

                    Signature:

                    Date
                     
                    ** HJR-192 superseded Public Law (what passes as law today is only "color of law”), replacing it with public policy. This eliminated our ability to PAY our debts, allowing only for their DISCHARGE. When we use any commercial paper (checks, drafts, warrants, federal reserve notes, etc.), and accept it as money, we simply pass the unpaid debt attached to the paper on to others, by way of our purchases and transactions. This unpaid debt, under public policy, now carries a public liability for its collection. In other words, all debt is now public.
                     
                    The faster people find out the faster we are all out of debt. FOWARD THIS INFORMATION TO ALL!!
                    Hope this helps. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!
                     
                  • Frog Farmer
                    ... Here I go popping party balloons again, but I and others here have already shown (and I ve been operating on that information for about 30 years) that HJR
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 18, 2009
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                      Steve Gardner posted:

                      > Here is the Silver Bullet!!
                      > U.S. House Join Resolution 192 (HJR 192) ( **SEE PERTINANT CLAUSE
                      > BELOW)
                      > ** HJR-192 superseded Public Law (what passes as law today is only
                      > "color of law"), replacing it with public policy. This eliminated our
                      > ability to PAY our debts, allowing only for their DISCHARGE. When we
                      > use any commercial paper (checks, drafts, warrants, federal reserve
                      > notes, etc.), and accept it as money, we simply pass the unpaid debt
                      > attached to the paper on to others, by way of our purchases and
                      > transactions. This unpaid debt, under public policy, now carries a
                      > public liability for its collection. In other words, all debt is now
                      > public.
                      >
                      > The faster people find out the faster we are all out of debt. FOWARD
                      > THIS INFORMATION TO ALL!!
                      > Hope this helps. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!

                      Here I go popping party balloons again, but I and others here have
                      already shown (and I've been operating on that information for about 30
                      years) that HJR 192 was REPEALED long ago (1978 as my memory serves).
                      There is a file explaining it all in this group's files.

                      And, the recent Kahre case proves that one is NOT precluded from dealing
                      in the constitutional money and is not prevented from choosing to PAY
                      debts instead of merely DISCHARGING them!

                      Regards,

                      FF

                      Moderator/Bear: I approved this message just so someone else would get to say this. It goes to show that all that glitters is not gold.
                    • Frog Farmer
                      ... Hmmmm...does that mean that otherwise it would not be approved? Did I do something against the rules? Moderator/Bear: No, I recognized HJR 192 had been
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 19, 2009
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                        Frog Farmer wrote:

                        > HJR 192 was REPEALED long ago (1978 as my memory serves).
                        > There is a file explaining it all in this group's files.
                        >
                        > And, the recent Kahre case proves that one is
                        > NOT precluded from dealing in the constitutional
                        > money and is not prevented from choosing to PAY
                        > debts instead of merely DISCHARGING them!
                        >
                        >
                        > Moderator/Bear: I approved this message just so someone else would get
                        > to say this. It goes to show that all that glitters is not gold.

                        Hmmmm...does that mean that otherwise it would not be approved? Did I
                        do something against the rules?

                        Moderator/Bear: No, I recognized HJR 192 had been repealed from previous discussions on this group. I was going to let somebody in the group say it.

                        Speaking of gold, paper is outpacing the rate at which men are
                        extracting it from the ground. Manipulations have made the price in
                        imaginary units come way down, further dissuading men from digging for
                        it. It's even more so for silver.

                        The people who have control and who disregard the law whenever it is
                        convenient for them are required by law to mint and provide to the
                        public as much gold and silver coin as is demanded by The People. Right
                        now, they are not following this law with the excuse that they cannot
                        get enough coin blanks to stamp out from their private monopolistic
                        contracted source. Does that make any sense? It does if it was
                        arranged to work out that way.

                        If "The People" who claim to want the constitution are using the
                        financial weapons of their conquerors on themselves, whose fault is
                        that? [Required answer to my own question: Their own]. Is it the fault
                        of the brainwashers who created the zombies they control, or is it the
                        fault of the former consciousness that inhabited that zombie body before
                        the surrender was signed in return for convenience and expedience, or
                        power or greed? [Required self-answer: BOTH]

                        How do you get "innocent" "victims" to use their own free will to keep
                        from swallowing attractive poisoned candy? [Req. Anti-Socratic ans.:
                        Education.]

                        Warnings don't seem to work. Being an example and not eating it
                        yourself doesn't seem to work. Pointing out the dead corpses with
                        poison candy dripping out of their mouths doesn't do the job either.
                        Passing laws against the candy (Article 1, Section 10) don't work.

                        Regards,

                        FF
                      • Levi Philos
                        The upper portion of this writing is original to the net, at the bottom is a clip and paste of things previously posted. (four people get BCCed this missive)
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 19, 2009
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                          The upper portion of this writing is original to the net, at the bottom is a clip and paste of things previously posted. (four people get BCCed this missive)

                          *********************************

                          The wide acceptance of a definition of money as a *thing* is at the center of the problems, and this acceptance is probably common to 99.9% of the people.

                          Here are three inter-leaved definitions that may serve to give open minded readers some new options.

                          • Money is a symbol system for exchanging real things by proxy.
                          • Money is an extension of language whereby humans are enabled the exchange of real things by means of symbols and contracts.
                          • (Michael Linton): Money is an information system for deploying human effort.
                          The usage (IMO) of precious metal coinage as money symbols is mostly about anti-counterfeiting.

                          But after Thomas Greco asked me to digitize a book about Scottish banking in the period of 1800 to 1865 more or less, I realized that damn near everything written about money is incorrect and what people are practicing is actually more of a religious belief than any kind of science.

                          The substitution of interest bearing hypothecated debt instruments as "credit" money leads to the exponential growth of all debt, and the subsequent problems are explained in the series of videos by Chris Martenson found here: http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

                          This substitution of the credit/debt pair for so-called "precious metal backing" was an implementation of the fifth plank of the communist manifesto where the credit of the people was taken by the government and subsequently assigned by license to the banks, but this taken was not accompanied by a correct assignment of the credit to the people who create the value that is being exchanged. This problem (incorrect assignment of seigniorage) is compounded by the attachment of interest to the debt instruments. Correction of the bookkeeping is at the heart of the redemption movement whether their process is correct or not is not of importance so long as fundamental principles are correct.

                          Once the people recognize that money is actually a communication of value by proxy (paper money and electronic bookkeeping entries cannot "store value", they can only transfer ownership of value), then we can finally get on to creating cures.

                          If you would like to see a fine example of circular reasoning, try reading the Uniform Commercial Code for any exact definition of "money." But in the same UCC you will find treatment of warehouse receipts and promissory notes and other various and sundry financial instruments. The hidden presumptions that live on like flat-earth slogans in the UCC seem to be that somebody -somewhere- has some gold to make final settlement of the values.

                          **************************************

                          Following is a clip and paste of my own writing that has been posted other places from time to time.

                          Accountants count, but what are they counting?

                          In the science of geometry, certain axioms are said to be true and conclusions are extrapolated from these axioms. If the axiom is in any way flawed, the conclusions are also flawed.

                          In Minnesota August 01, 2007 a bridge collapsed. Not the first bridge to collapse - in July 1940 the bridge that became known as "Galloping Gertie" opened across the Tacoma Narrows. In November 1940 this bridge failed.

                          If bridge engineers were as dumb as economists, they would just weld patches on the bridge and rebuild with the same basic design.

                          This monetary system has some very basic flaws, and before any money system can evolve to provide a stable system, these flaws need to be identified and eliminated.

                          These flaws are of the axiom variety; nothing less than identification and eliminating these flaws will succeed.

                          So, you ask what are these flaws?

                          Consider first in an allegorical sense, some computer history and writing. First, Joel Spolsky, "The Law of Leaky Abstractions" http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html [quote JS] All non-trivial abstractions, to some degree, are leaky. [/quote]

                          A money system is to human society as an operating system is to a computer.

                          A money system is a meme set (files) that collate together and provide rationalization and allocation of the output of human effort.

                          With computers, we only need to go back to the 80s, but with money systems we must go back thousands of years.

                          The first money was in the form of warehouse receipts backed by families and carried a family crest. These might have been stamped on clay pieces or they might have been leather disks.

                          The first loans were often bred animals or seeds. This was the entry point for the presumption that money can grow and multiply; now consider:

                          *********************************************

                          Matrix of Money: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teaparty/message/83236

                          I don't try to define "dollar" - my posts are an attempt to define "money."

                          My definition: Money is not a thing; money is a method of transferring ownership of things.

                          Since money is a "method" or a technique; money is actually a communication of ownership of real stuff by proxy.

                          As such, there is no danger of collapse of "money."

                          There is an almost certain danger of collapse of faith in "dollar."

                          Two general and interlocking presumptions keep people locked into the same thought cycle. The first presumption is that money is a *thing* , and the second presumption is that money is a natural monopoly best controlled by a centralized "authority."


                          The following rational is to show how money can actually be a variety of methods of transferring things of value by proxy, and these methods can operate at competition thus filling Hayek's premise in "DENATIONALIZATION OF MONEY."

                          There are three general categories of things of value that could be the basis for issuance of money.
                          1. Commodities and finished products held for claim can be the basis for a form of warehouse receipt - a bearer title instrument.
                          2. A promise to create and deliver something of value in the future - the promissory note - a form of a contract.
                          3. Human time as represented by a symbol such as the Ithaca Hour and redeemable in human intellectual and physical labor.

                          Each of these categories could in turn be broken down into general classes of total value.
                          1. Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of high value and backed by insurance policies and/or performance bonds. Guaranteed redemption.
                          2. Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of moderate or medium value backed by cross collateralization such as cooperative membership and/or corporation stock, and/or union affiliation in the case of Time Symbols. The second class of value might be backed by a formalized system of mutual credit.
                          3. Commodities, Products, Promises, and Time of low value could be transmitted without guarantee other than word of mouth recommendation and/or reputation records such as e-bay keeps on buyers and sellers.

                          Examining this structure in some depth you start to see that an entire matrix of things that can be money appears.

                          When you see that money is actually a method or set of methods of conveying ownership by proxy, then it becomes readily apparent that there should never be any shortage of money.

                          It is the limitation of money to be a single *thing* (things are found in limited quantities) rather than money as a communication that control freaks who steal by lying are enabled of their fraud.

                          Using precious metals for your "utterance" of money is essentially an anti-counterfeiting measure. Study out what the casinos do to issue gambling chips - they have a counterfeiting problem too, and have solved that problem by a variety of techniques.


                          See the Ripple thread for more clues.
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Keihatsu
                          Here's how the system might work:

                          Define a public specification for a Transaction. It would store who, what, when, and where. Not why or how the transaction was determined. The protocol would be openly designed like HTTP or HTML.

                          With that described, companies would fill various roles:
                          - transaction coordinators
                          - transaction reporters
                          - transaction fulfillment
                          - wealth depositories
                          - wealth translators
                          - wealth lenders
                          - performance assurors 

                          Performance assurors would probably become household names. When transacting, Trust would be gained by saying: "All my transactions are assured by XY Corp". If you failed to perform, they would perform on your promise (whatever that promise was).

                          Present a card at a convenience store. The card would identify you. The store would likely accept various performance assurance companies. Yours is one of them. Trust is gained. Performance will be made through your preferred method (eg. gold). If the store does not accept gold, a wealth translator would facilitate the trade. If they do accept gold, your wealth depository would transfer gold to the store's wealth depository. The coordinator follows the process and sends the result of all transactions to the parties' respective transaction reporters.

                          With the exception of the coordinators, all of the above businesses exist today. Their only change would be to communicate through the public protocol.

                          There is a cost to all of the above, but the benefit is authority becomes distributed into interchangeable entities. It also allows total freedom of interaction between participants. No entity can gain control and it eliminates central banks and the need for a transactional currency. Maybe most importantly, the system is built with accountability (rather than authority) at its core.
                          Keihatsu gets it.

                          Ripple is a decentralized mutual credit system; as such not a complete "money" system - but most certainly a step in the right direction. More here: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=222321

                          Levi Philos

                          Hayek nailed it; Competition in money systems brings stability.

                          Ripple: http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=222321

                          END FOR NOW; LEVI PHILOS


                        • Email41@aol.com
                          Here I go popping party balloons again, but I and others here have already shown (and I ve been operating on that information for about 30 years) that HJR 192
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 19, 2009
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                            Here I go popping party balloons again, but I and others here have already shown (and I've been operating on that information for about 30 years) that HJR 192 was REPEALED long ago (1978 as my memory serves).
                            There is a file explaining it all in this group's files.


                            Barton Buhtz states: This action [i.e. the redemption] is documented and authorized through Public Policy HJR-192, Title IV, Sec. 401 of the Federal Reserve Act, the Supreme Court's confirmation in Guaranty Trust of New York vs. Henwood, et al (1939) and Public Law 73-10. Such action is further confirmed in USC Title XII, Title XXVIII, Sec. 1641, 3002 and the Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act.

                            The Supreme Court addressed HJR-192 in Guarantee Trust of New York vs. Henwood, et al (1939) 307 U.S. 247 (FN3) quoted it word for word and then expanded on it to include all future contracts. (I have not shepardized this case to see if it has been overturned.)

                            PUBLIC LAW 97-258 - SEPT. 13, 1982,
                            96 STAT. 1084 references in a chart listing Acts of Congress that have been repealed, the Act of June 5th, 1933, in 48 STAT 113. (The former H.J. Res. 192, 73rd Congress, 1st Session, Public Law 73-10. (see page below).)

                            What is puzzling is that HJR 192 begins at 48 STAT 112, (a page before) and continues to 113. 48 STAT 112 is not listed as repealed in P.L. 97-258.

                            In 1982 Congress re-codified Title 31 Money and Finance by way of P.L. 97-258, 96 STAT 877. In that statute the legal tender status of United States coins and currencies was re-assigned at section 5103.


                            TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER I >
                            § 5103. Legal tender
                            United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

                            Some have noticed that HJR 192 mentions within the body of the text: "Federal Reserve notes" and "Federal Reserve banks" [see: HJR 192 Sec. (1)(b) and (2)], whereas 31 USC 5103 mentions "Federal reserve notes" and "Federal reserve banks." {Could this be as significant as the difference between the United States of America and the United States?}

                            31 USC 5103 is still a valid Code section.

                            What I need to understand is that is it the position here that Congress made a mistake when it came to the repeal of a statute and the issuance of currency of the realm, declaring what is and is not "legal tender"?

                            Or,... did Congress know exactly what they were doing?

                            I suspect the later.



                            And, the recent Kahre case proves that one is NOT precluded from dealing
                            in the constitutional money and is not prevented from choosing to PAY
                            debts instead of merely DISCHARGING them!

                            Regards,

                            FF

                            Moderator/Bear: I approved this message just so someone else would get to say this. It goes to show that all that glitters is not gold.





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