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An Apparent Conflict

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  • westernwit
    Section 861 arguers say that those within the united States are exempted from taxation. On another bit that I saw, it is postulated that the United States
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 17, 2008
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      Section 861 arguers say that those "within the united States" are
      exempted from taxation.

      On another bit that I saw, it is postulated that the United States
      consists only of the Dist. of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.
      amounting to 5 entities. Sounded and looked reasonable...

      Now, if according to USC the United States is only those entities then
      isn't there a problem with the reading of 861? If the United States
      is DC and Guam, etc then aren't all citizens living in the several
      States living "without the United States"?

      If we are living "without the United States" then, according to 861 we
      are liable, but if we are "without" aren't we then out of the
      jurisdiction of the United States?

      I am sooooo confused. Help.
    • ciamarie2001
      It s been a few years since I researched all of that, however here s my understanding: There are several definitions of United States -- so it really would
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 27, 2008
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        It's been a few years since I researched all of that, however here's
        my understanding:

        There are several definitions of 'United States' -- so it really would
        depend on what definition you're using. However, the key word in
        section 861 and related sections, as well as in the 16th amendment is
        the word 'source'.

        Under the regs for section 861, it shows a list of types or items of
        income from sources within the United States that are NOT exempt, and
        are thus taxable. The list then shows mostly some types of corporate
        income as well as some possessions income as taxable. So in this
        instance, whether the definition of U.S. encompasses 'the several
        states' or not, the types of income shown as not exempt is very limited.

        The 16th amendment says that Congress can lay a tax on incomes from
        whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several
        states. Right? Now this goes against most people's thinking or
        brainwashing, as the case may be - but I submit to you that the only
        way the 16th amendment can be in harmony with the part of the
        Constitution that forbids a direct tax unless apportioned, is if they
        lay said tax OUTSIDE of the several states. There is no need for
        apportionment in that case. What is the definition of the word
        'without' ? For those of you with a King James B-ble, you'll see that
        the word 'without' is for something outside of someplace else.

        Some say that ALL direct taxes require apportionment, and that's not
        true, it only says apportionment is required 'among the several
        states'. The writers of the 16th amendment got tricky with the wording
        and managed to fool a lot of people. The income tax was implemented
        under various tariff acts (tariff of 1909 and 1913). A tariff requires
        an ITEM (see sect 61 of the IRC), such as widgets, as well as a SOURCE
        or origin -- i.e. China. Source is always a place, so therefore
        'wages', or 'dividends and interest' are not a source of income, but
        they are an item of income. The source part of the equation must still
        be determined to finish the calculation under a tariff.

        Hope that helps.

        Cia




        --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "westernwit" <westernwit@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Section 861 arguers say that those "within the united States" are
        > exempted from taxation.
        >
        > On another bit that I saw, it is postulated that the United States
        > consists only of the Dist. of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.
        > amounting to 5 entities. Sounded and looked reasonable...
        >
        > Now, if according to USC the United States is only those entities then
        > isn't there a problem with the reading of 861? If the United States
        > is DC and Guam, etc then aren't all citizens living in the several
        > States living "without the United States"?
        >
        > If we are living "without the United States" then, according to 861 we
        > are liable, but if we are "without" aren't we then out of the
        > jurisdiction of the United States?
        >
        > I am sooooo confused. Help.
        >
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