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Re: [tips_and_tricks] Eric, WhoRU makes my points on US Citizenship

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  • Jake
    ...     The above pegged my BS-O-Meter - there is no prosecutor in the Tax Court, which is an administrative tribunal where you
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 9, 2008
      > You are mistaken as to what occurred in Tax Court in 1970 - the judge lost the case on my response to his first question: "Are you renouncing your citizenship? "; my response: "How can I renounce that which I never applied for?"
      >
      > That was actually the long and the short of it - the prosecutor had started his case against me with the critically important presumptional jurisdictional statement, "Citizens of the United States have an obligation to blah - blah - blah..."
       
      < long message snipped >
       
      The above pegged my "BS-O-Meter" - there is no "prosecutor" in the Tax Court, which is an administrative tribunal where you go if you file to go there - the Gov't. doesn't drag you into the TC & can't.  The TC is not a court of law, when you file there you give that tribunal jurisdiction & admit that you owe something - you're just arguing over how much.  And in order to file in the TC you'd have to use a SSN, or some taxpayer ID number as the system goes by TIN in numerical order, not by name, address, etc.  With no TIN of any kind there wouldn't be a tax record to argue about or even a way to file your administrative action.
       


       

    • Bernie Besherse
      Hello tips & all, All of the reasons that are given why the Social Security and other adhesion contracts do not apply are missing the most important legal
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 9, 2008
        Hello tips & all,

        All of the reasons that are given why the Social Security and other adhesion contracts do not apply are missing the most important legal point.

        All of the reasons show that the contracts are voidable, but not necessarily void. The contracts do apply and will apply and are legally enforceable until the correct legal steps are followed that will void the contracts. The difference between "void" and "voidable" is clearly expressed in Texas and Hawaii family law statutes regarding marriages that are entered into that are not according to law, and whether they are always and immediately void, or they may be voided by applying for a decree that the marriage is void. In the case of the Social Security and other adhesion contracts, they are merely voidable.

        Sincerely,
        Bernie Besherse, Trustee
      • gary
        If the Social Security contract is voidable, and if voidable means one can make some type of application and have the SSN that the SSA assigned to you no
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 10, 2008
          If the Social Security "contract" is voidable, and if "voidable" means one
          can make some type of application and have the SSN that the SSA assigned to
          you no longer be associated with you, I would be very interested in knowing
          the procedure to do that.  Along with that procedure, it would be helpful to
          be able to see at least one case where it was accomplished.  After all, if
          there is a procedure to do it, it must certainly have been done many times
          and there should be many cases available.

          I have heard people say, and have seen many posts over the years that claim
          this can be done, but I have never seen one verifiable case.  If anyone can
          show such a case, I would appreciate it.
           
          Bear has asked that I state how much time I have spent looking for the one case where someone has had the SSN assigned to them by the SSA disassociated from that person and their SS "account" expunged from the SSA system at their request. 
           
          It would be difficult to estimate the total time as it was not all done at once.  It has been about 15 years since I heard this could allegedly be done and I have probably put in a few hours of searching each time I see it mentioned on a discussion forum.  The searching was a much more intense when I could still afford access to some of the legal databases where I was doing other research. If I had to guess, I would say at least 50 hours in total. 
           
          That may or may not be a lot of hours (or maybe that is a lot of hours and I am just not very good at it) over that many years, but if this could be done by merely following a procedure or making some type of application, one would think (from all the people on lists like this expressing their desire to do it) that there would be hundreds, if not thousands of such cases floating around to be easily found.
           
          In addition to searching for these alleged cases myself, every time someone says it can be done, I ask for a verifiable case and have never had anyone show such a case.  Keep in mind that the people I ask for a case have not stated that they have researched and found how someone SHOULD/COULD do it, or that it MIGHT work, they state it as an accomplished fact.  If it is so, let's see it.  My question remains to all the people on this list who have expressed a desire to be without the SSN assigned to their name, have any of you ever actually done it?
           
          I know a number of people who won't use the SSN assigned to them by the SSA,
          but an inquiry to the SSA will still show that number assigned to that
          person.

          Gary
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:52 PM
          Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Re:Eric, WhoRU makes my points on US Citizenship

          Hello tips & all,

          All of the reasons that are given why the Social Security and other adhesion contracts do not apply are missing the most important legal point.

          All of the reasons show that the contracts are voidable, but not necessarily void. The contracts do apply and will apply and are legally enforceable until the correct legal steps are followed that will void the contracts. The difference between "void" and "voidable" is clearly expressed in Texas and Hawaii family law statutes regarding marriages that are entered into that are not according to law, and whether they are always and immediately void, or they may be voided by applying for a decree that the marriage is void. In the case of the Social Security and other adhesion contracts, they are merely voidable.

          Sincerely,
          Bernie Besherse, Trustee



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          The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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        • mr.Bill Ashlock
          Dear Sir: I have gotten rid of a social number that had been assigned to me AND MUCH MORE. Contact LB Bork. After completing the process he has intricately
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 12, 2008
            Dear Sir:

            I have gotten rid of a social number that had been
            "assigned" to me AND MUCH MORE.

            Contact LB Bork.

            After completing the process he has intricately
            developed, I am no longer in the system. To back this
            statement up, after completing the process, I removed
            the state issued plates on my car and put on my own
            private vanity plates. I dealt with a Illinois State
            Trooper and gave her my paperwork. She did not issue
            a ticket to me. (I had a busted fuel line on Hwy
            57?). At 2:00am downtown Milwaukee a radar detector
            in the car went off. ONE car was behind me, NO ONE
            ELSE AROUND. The detector quit beeping. I looked
            behind me to see the car heading for an exit ramp. I
            had been through Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri,
            Arkansas, Iowa and Kansas.

            This is just the START.

            LB is the most thorough, knowledgeable, and honorable
            person dealing with correcting one's position I have
            spoken to. Do with this what you will.

            Sarah Marie


            --- gary <gary2666@...> wrote:

            > If the Social Security "contract" is voidable, and
            > if "voidable" means one
            > can make some type of application and have the SSN
            > that the SSA assigned to
            > you no longer be associated with you, I would be
            > very interested in knowing
            > the procedure to do that. Along with that
            > procedure, it would be helpful to
            > be able to see at least one case where it was
            > accomplished. After all, if
            > there is a procedure to do it, it must certainly
            > have been done many times
            > and there should be many cases available.
          • JcP
            1.. Under the provisions set forth as a result of Public Agencies Opposed to Social Security Entrapment v. Heckler, 613 F Supp 558 (D.C. Cal 1985), at page
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 12, 2008
              1. Under the provisions set forth as a result of Public Agencies Opposed to Social Security Entrapment v. Heckler, 613 F Supp 558 (D.C. Cal 1985), at page 575, “The Secretary of Health and Human Services is hereby ORDERED to accept the notifications of withdrawal properly tendered to her.”
              2. Process of removal from the Social Security Program pursuant to 20 CFR Chapter III, Section 404.1905.
              3. Treasury Regulation 301.6109-1(d) allows one to withdraw from this activity and states specifically:  “Individuals who are ineligible for or do not wish to participate in the benefits of the social security program shall nevertheless obtain a social security number if they are required to furnish such a number pursuant to paragraph (b) of this section.” 

                Paragraph (b) is for those persons desiring to file a statement or return or those persons who are (under paragraph (a) engaged in a trade or business within theUnited States .

              4. In further review of the Compilation of the Social Security Laws, 98th Congress, 2nd Session, Committee Print through 1984, pages 397 and 398 will fully detail the facts concerning the construction of the terms “State” and “United States” in subparagraphs (A) contained prima facia evidence that the Social Security Act of the 74th Congress, Session 1, August 14, 1935, as recorded in Chapter 531 of the United States Statutes as Large, was and is intended to operate “within the Federal United States ONLY” (per definition).

              5. The federal courts have ruled that private sector solicitors may not obtain social security numbers until they comport their solicitations to comply with disclosure requirements of the Privacy Act, including informing customers of the voluntary nature of such disclosure, the source of authority for requesting such disclosure, and possible uses to which disclosed numbers might be put.

                Yeager v. Hackensack Water Co., 615 F.Supp.1087 (1985).
            • Frog Farmer
              ... Me too! ... There is more than one system . And more than one way to skin a cat, some more intricately developed than others. ... This is all true for me
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 13, 2008
                > Dear Sir:
                >
                > I have gotten rid of a social number that had been
                > "assigned" to me AND MUCH MORE.

                Me too!

                > Contact LB Bork.

                > After completing the process he has intricately
                > developed, I am no longer in the system.

                There is more than one "system". And more than one way to skin a cat,
                some more intricately developed than others.

                > To back this
                > statement up, after completing the process, I removed
                > the state issued plates on my car and put on my own
                > private vanity plates. I dealt with a Illinois State
                > Trooper and gave her my paperwork. She did not issue
                > a ticket to me. (I had a busted fuel line on Hwy
                > 57?). At 2:00am downtown Milwaukee a radar detector
                > in the car went off. ONE car was behind me, NO ONE
                > ELSE AROUND. The detector quit beeping. I looked
                > behind me to see the car heading for an exit ramp. I
                > had been through Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri,
                > Arkansas, Iowa and Kansas.

                This is all true for me as well, but I never equated it to having
                anything to do with having any number. That issue never came up for me.
                I do not see the link between the two propositions. What do they have
                to do with each other?

                > This is just the START.
                >
                > LB is the most thorough, knowledgeable, and honorable
                > person dealing with correcting one's position I have
                > spoken to. Do with this what you will.

                "Dealing"? I wonder how LB is capable of determining anyone else's
                "position" when most people are not capable of articulating their own.

                And how does he prevent people from "uncorrecting" their positions,
                since they never understood it before meeting LB? How do they proceed
                after they leave LB's guidance? Most cases I've seen, "freed slaves"
                often return to the slave quarters for food and shelter, after a very
                short time, by making ink impressions on new pieces of paper offered to
                them for that purpose.
              • gary
                None of these has anything to do with an individual human withdrawing from the SS system by getting rid of the SSN assigned to them and having the SS account
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 13, 2008
                  None of these has anything to do with an individual human withdrawing from
                  the SS system by getting rid of the SSN assigned to them and having the SS
                  account with their name and that number expunged from the SSA.

                  These are about agreements between governments, state employees being
                  withdrawn from the social security PAYMENT system (they still have their
                  SSNs).

                  I don't see anything in 301.6109-1(d) that states anyone can withdraw from
                  SS. There is something that says an acceptance agent can terminate his
                  agreement, but that has nothing to do with an individual withdrawing from
                  SS.

                  Gary

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: JcP
                  To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:07 PM
                  Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Re: Eric, WhoRU makes my points on US Citizenship


                  Under the provisions set forth as a result of Public Agencies Opposed to
                  Social Security Entrapment v. Heckler, 613 F Supp 558 (D.C. Cal 1985), at
                  page 575, "The Secretary of Health and Human Services is hereby ORDERED to
                  accept the notifications of withdrawal properly tendered to her."
                  Process of removal from the Social Security Program pursuant to 20 CFR
                  Chapter III, Section 404.1905.
                  Treasury Regulation 301.6109-1(d) allows one to withdraw from this activity
                  and states specifically: "Individuals who are ineligible for or do not wish
                  to participate in the benefits of the social security program shall
                  nevertheless obtain a social security number if they are required to furnish
                  such a number pursuant to paragraph (b) of this section."
                • dwissel
                  Think of SSN like LLoyd s of London. Someone applies for insurance in America to insure their hands cause they are a famous piano player. LLoyd;s writes the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 14, 2008
                    Think of SSN like LLoyd's of London. Someone applies for insurance in America to insure their hands cause they are a famous piano player. LLoyd;s writes the policy for the far away land called America. Now because the name was John Smith and there are too many John Smith's the company ASSIGNS a number. The number is ALWAYS stuck on the file folder and application. Let's say you cancel your insurance or simply haven't reached the "vested" amount to automatically guarantee a payout. Lloyd;'s says "Fine...cancelled....or fine...they stopped paying" But they keep the application, the name and number AND the file. How do they know you won't pay them again and want their services?

                    The bottom line is LLoyd's has the number in some far away file cabinet on a territory you care little about....kinda like SSA does on the island of the District of Criminals.



                    None of these has anything to do with an individual human withdrawing from
                    the SS system by getting rid of the SSN assigned to them and having the SS
                    account with their name and that number expunged from the SSA.

                    These are about agreements between governments, state employees being
                    withdrawn from the social security PAYMENT system (they still have their
                    SSNs).
                  • gary
                    The analogy is not quite accurate. When you contract with LLoyd s for the insurance they issue a policy (insurance contract) and a number is assigned to that
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 14, 2008
                      The analogy is not quite accurate. When you contract with LLoyd's for the
                      insurance they issue a policy (insurance contract) and a number is assigned
                      to that POLICY, not your name. If you get another policy from them, it will
                      have a different policy number. When you stop paying LLoyd's, they will
                      terminate your policy and mark it "terminated for non-payment", if you
                      cancel, they will mark the file "cancelled by insured"? Yes, they will
                      probably keep it for their records but if you want the policy again, you
                      will have to make application for it and a new policy will be issued and a
                      new number will be assigned. You will not be allowed to just start up the
                      old policy with the old number.

                      The biggest difference is that with SS you cannot cancel it (that is what we
                      are discussing, can you cancel the SS contract and have a check on that
                      number say something like "cancelled by request"), the policy stays active
                      and in force at all times. You may choose not to apply for benefits, but
                      the SSA expects payments whenever you are paid unless payment to you is
                      exempt (such as state employees).

                      Gary

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: dwissel
                      To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:51 AM
                      Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] Eric, WhoRU makes my points on US Citizenship


                      Think of SSN like LLoyd's of London. Someone applies for insurance in
                      America to insure their hands cause they are a famous piano player. LLoyd;s
                      writes the policy for the far away land called America. Now because the name
                      was John Smith and there are too many John Smith's the company ASSIGNS a
                      number. The number is ALWAYS stuck on the file folder and application. Let's
                      say you cancel your insurance or simply haven't reached the "vested" amount
                      to automatically guarantee a payout. Lloyd;'s says "Fine...cancelled....or
                      fine...they stopped paying" But they keep the application, the name and
                      number AND the file. How do they know you won't pay them again and want
                      their services?

                      The bottom line is LLoyd's has the number in some far away file cabinet on a
                      territory you care little about....kinda like SSA does on the island of the
                      District of Criminals.
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