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Re: [tips_and_tricks] Gold and Silver Coins

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  • Jerry Fleischner
    Reply to gary ... Heard of someone who tried to pay with a bag full of FRNs and they refused them. If they will take the coins at
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 2, 2007
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      Reply to "gary" <gary2666@...>

      Gary wrote:

      > ***I have heard they (IRS) won't except anything but a check or money order.
      Heard of someone who tried to pay with a bag full of FRNs and they refused
      them. If they will take the coins at face value and someone sells a product
      in exchange for those coins then they shouldn't mind if that person claims
      income based on the face value of those coins.
      /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      My verbal questions to at least three persons at the IRS received equivalent
      responses, that the IRS would accept gold and silver legal tender coins at
      face value.

      Then I got an interesting response from a California FTB attorney regarding
      sales tax, essentially that if a business sells a product in exchange for gold
      or silver legal tender, then it may collect the sales tax in anything that is
      legal tender, for example FRNs.

      Also, a situation may occur where, for example, a business buys a product for
      $1000 in FRNs and resells it for $200 silver dollars. The business may
      rightly claim an $800 income tax loss, and it need report a profit only if it
      converts the silver dollars to FRNs, at a current ratio of 14 FRNs to one
      silver dollar.


      Jerry Fleischner
    • Frog Farmer
      ... Maybe I can clarify, even though my own opinion is that these coins are not lawful money in that they fail to meet the STANDARD of lawful dollars ,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 2, 2007
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        > >Again, all these coins are legal tender, and the IRS will be happy to
        > >accept them in payment of taxes, at face value.
        >
        >
        > ***I have heard they won't except anything but a check or money order.
        > Heard of someone who tried to pay with a bag full of FRNs and they
        > refused
        > them. If they will take the coins at face value and someone sells a
        > product
        > in exchange for those coins then they shouldn't mind if that person
        > claims
        > income based on the face value of those coins.

        Maybe I can clarify, even though my own opinion is that these "coins"
        are not "lawful money" in that they fail to meet the STANDARD of lawful
        "dollars", they ARE "legal tender" because of one of those other
        "Catch-22" statutes where congress contradicts itself again.

        As for IRS "taking" them at face value, that's exactly how they'll do it
        - they'll seize them in a raid instead of accepting them as a voluntary
        payment. When they seize them, will they credit you for each ounce of
        gold they steal? No, the records will show that only the face value in
        dollars was seized, and it will be used as a credit at face value
        towards the outrageous fines and penalties always assessed to resisters
        and protestors and gold bugs. You are better off having your gold and
        silver without any dollar denomination on them, because no dollar
        denomination that people assume means FRNs can come close to their real
        value. If the people knew what a dollar was, there'd be no problem, but
        now that the elite's intentionally dumbed-down publicly educated
        "perfectly stupid generation" is in the driver's seat, you'd best be
        careful when the majority's definition of a word is radically different
        from the original meaning of as recently as 50 years ago. This is why
        they say the constitution is a "living document" - if they can get the
        meaning of all words to change in the minds of people born yesterday,
        they don't need to amend it at all to get what they want.

        Regards,

        FF
      • brokenwrench
        Yes the irs TAKES gold and silver coins and never gives them back or gives you credit for them off your tax bill. I know personally people that use a bonded
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 3, 2007
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          Yes the irs TAKES gold and silver coins and never gives them back   or gives you credit for them off your tax bill.
          I know personally people that use a bonded promisory note to discharge taxes for the year in question. they have been successful doing this for years as it is in title 31USC3526,
          31USC3716, 31USC5133 this is how you do a setoff
          as for repayment of debt look at this excerpt from a federal court ruling
           

               31 U. S. C. sec. 5118 (d) (2) provided for many years that a requirement of
               repayment of debt in a particular kind coin or currency could be made by
               legal tender. As of October 21, 1977 Legal tender for discharge of debt is
               no longer required. That is because legal tender is not in circulation at par
               with the promises to pay credit. Negotiable instruments Guaranty Trust Co.
               of New York vs. Henwood, 307, U.S. 847 (1939) holds that 31 U.S.C. 5118
               was enacted to remedy the specific evil of tying debt to any particular
               currency or requiring payment in a greater number of dollars than promised.
               Since October 27, 1977, there can be no requirement of repayment in legal
               tender either, since legal tender was not loaned and repayment need only be
                made in equivalent kind: A negotiable instrument representing credit.


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        • Nick
          I certainly take exception to everything that you have posted as none of it states as you have implied. A setoff is not a discharge, it is payment from one
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 4, 2007
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            I certainly take exception to everything that you have posted as none of it states as you have implied. A setoff is not a discharge, it is payment from one account for payment of another account.

            For instance, if you owe money to the IRS and you have Social Security payments, they will levy the Social Security account for satisfaction of the debt

            As far as the blue block below, I am interested in what you say, but need you to clarify. Lets take a student loan. You gave a promissory note in which you borrowed a certain amount of credits. Those credits were transferred to the school on your behalf and the repayment of those credits are guaranteed by the government.   How can you say there is no requirement of payment?

            --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, brokenwrench <brokewrench@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes the irs TAKES gold and silver coins and never gives them back or gives you credit for them off your tax bill.
            > I know personally people that use a bonded promisory note to discharge taxes for the year in question. they have been successful doing this for years as it is in title 31USC3526,
            > 31USC3716, 31USC5133 this is how you do a setoff
            > as for repayment of debt look at this excerpt from a federal court ruling
            >
            >
            > 31 U. S. C. sec. 5118 (d) (2) provided for many years that a requirement of
            > repayment of debt in a particular kind coin or currency could be made by
            > legal tender. As of October 21, 1977 Legal tender for discharge of debt is
            > no longer required. That is because legal tender is not in circulation at par
            > with the promises to pay credit. Negotiable instruments Guaranty Trust Co.
            > of New York vs. Henwood, 307, U.S. 847 (1939) holds that 31 U.S.C. 5118
            > was enacted to remedy the specific evil of tying debt to any particular
            > currency or requiring payment in a greater number of dollars than promised.
            > Since October 27, 1977, there can be no requirement of repayment in legal
            > tender either, since legal tender was not loaned and repayment need only be
            > made in equivalent kind: A negotiable instrument representing credit.

          • Scott
            In response to information I posted and comments by titleinnovations the following is given for information and research purposes only. titleinnovations said:
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 4, 2007
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              In response to information I posted and comments by titleinnovations the following is given for information and research purposes only.
               
              titleinnovations said:
              "Most of what the mint currently issues are Medals, they do issue some "coins" but they are proofs and are not made for circulation" 
               
              I can verify this statement. And here for Silver Coins here: http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/index.cfm?action=american_eagles
              As listed on this page it states:
               
              Like their gold counterparts, American Eagle Silver Coins have been produced and sold in both proof and bullion finishes since 1986.
               
               
              I can verify what I posted which is found off the US Mint here: http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/buffalo24k/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=AmBuffBull

              One measure of an investment is liquidity, or the ease with which an asset can be converted to cash. The American Buffalo Gold Bullion Coin, with its unique backing by the United States Government, can be sold for cash at most coin and precious metals dealers worldwide. Although the coin is also United States legal tender, its face value is largely symbolic as the value of the gold it contains has historically been far greater.

              I believe this last sentence validates my previous post, that the coins face value is accepted as legal tender however, it would be smarter to convert to FRN's for more buying power.

              Scott Williams

              Denver Colorado

               

               

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