Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Jurisdiction

Expand Messages
  • mn_chicago
    Thursday 1 February 2007 This comes from the DUI thread, but because it pertains specifically to jurisdiciton, I have moved the comment to here. ... Unless
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
      Thursday 1 February 2007

      This comes from the DUI thread, but because it pertains specifically
      to jurisdiciton, I have moved the comment to here.

      : "Jim" <jimveda37@...>

      > All judges have the right to decide jurisdiction, IF
      > jurisdiction is in question and IF an action has been commenced.
      > But the jurisdiction of a court must be invoked by a sufficient
      > accusatory instrument according to law or an action has NOT been
      > commenced.

      Unless certain pieces of information become clear in my mind, I
      continue to grappple with them and sometimes fail to see the logical
      conclusion.

      For example, when a foreclosure is commenced by a lender, it is
      done via a local agent/attorney with copies of the note and mortgage
      used as evidence.

      I understand the need to eliminate the attorney by demanding a license
      and oath be produced, and same for the one leading the event. Given
      that, if one were to proceed otherwise, wouldn't it be sufficient
      to object to the process of lack of jurisdiction because there is
      no complaining witness?

      Certainly, the attorney cannot act as a witness in place of a
      complaining party, and the "copies" can be objected to as hearsay
      and lacking substance, and evidence ain't a witness, as a start.

      Does one have to identify themselves in such a procedure if there is
      no complaining witness making an accusation? I am not clear on that
      as to how to be in command with certainty in one's stance against the
      proceeding. It may seem like a small issue, but it is important in
      having confidence as a belligerant.

      In addition to having no complaining witness, and the lender is
      always a corporate entity, a fiction should not be able to claim an
      injury. Is this also not another brick in the wall?

      To be effective, one has to act with the belligerent confidence
      (or is it confident belligerence?) of Frog Farmer, and know that what
      is being claimed/challenged/demanded has no weak link.


      > What standing does a judge have in an action that has
      > not been commenced?

      ...which addresses the issues I raised above. Are they sufficient
      to preclude going forward, at that point, with the issue of license
      or oath not a part of the discussion?


      > The law tells us what is a sufficient accusatory instrument.
      > Either those elements are in the record of the court or they are
      > not. It's black or white. If those elements are not in the
      > record,the jurisdiction of the court has not been invoked, the
      > court is powerless to issue ANY lawful process (summons or warrant)
      > and any alleged order of a court acting absent jurisdiction is void
      > ab initio.

      I have been to the law library to research precisely what is a
      complaining witness, and I looked up corporations. All it says is
      that a corp has to be represented by an attorney. As to witnesses,
      it goes into issues of being an actual witness, not a complaining
      party.

      Reading between the lines sometimes appears as invisible to me.
      Until I have clarity, I harbor doubt. Once I have clarity, you will
      finding me standing right behind the resident Farmer, and even trying
      to push him out of the way so I can get my turn.

      Thanks.

      mn
    • The Handyman
      In Louisiana we have what is known as executory process to foreclose on a security interest without the formality of a hearing. The representing attorney
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
        In Louisiana we have what is known as "executory process" to foreclose on a
        security interest without the formality of a hearing. The representing
        attorney simply attaches the contract and note along with an affidavit from
        one of the bank's employee. The affidavit states that s/he has searched
        their records and found that you are in default for non-payment of the debt.
        That affidavit is all that is needed because you are not served with a copy
        of the exparte petition. This is permitted because you waived formal
        hearing and consented to judgment when you signed the contract. In such a
        case your only remedy is an injunction based upon a ground that would estop
        the seizure and sale. It is like shooting fish in a barrel once executory
        process is filed. I have such a seizure case in Federal court for 3 years
        involving a seizure and sale. Federal because I goofed and failed to go for
        an injunction. I am now going against the attorney for not sending a
        dunning letter prior to filing the exparte petition. He managed to get a
        dismissal on the ground that, as an attorney enforcing a security interest,
        he was not a debt collector. I won on appeal but the 5th circuit did not
        print a decision. Trial is set for August. If I prevail I most probably
        can get the judgment voided because it was obtained in violation of the Fair
        Debt Collection Practice Act. This how they avoid witness.

        -------Original Message-------

        From: mn_chicago
        Date: 2/1/2007 1:35:59 PM
        To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Jurisdiction

        Thursday 1 February 2007

        This comes from the DUI thread, but because it pertains specifically
        to jurisdiciton, I have moved the comment to here.

        : "Jim" <jimveda37@...>

        > All judges have the right to decide jurisdiction, IF
        > jurisdiction is in question and IF an action has been commenced.
        > But the jurisdiction of a court must be invoked by a sufficient
        > accusatory instrument according to law or an action has NOT been
        > commenced.

        Unless certain pieces of information become clear in my mind, I
        continue to grappple with them and sometimes fail to see the logical
        conclusion.

        For example, when a foreclosure is commenced by a lender, it is
        done via a local agent/attorney with copies of the note and mortgage
        used as evidence.
      • Craig Lancaster
        b1 wrote: Thursday 1 February 2007 ... , mn_chicago wrote:. ... * It s a great issue and on point. An attorney
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
          b1 wrote:
          Thursday 1 February 2007

          --- In tips_and_tricks@ yahoogroups. com, "mn_chicago wrote:.>
          .....
          >I understand the need to eliminate the attorney by demanding a
          license
          >and oath be produced, and same for the one leading the event. Given
          >that, if one were to proceed otherwise, wouldn't it be sufficient
          >to object to the process of lack of jurisdiction because there is
          >no complaining witness?

          >Certainly, the attorney cannot act as a witness in place of a
          >complaining party, and the "copies" can be objected to as hearsay
          >and lacking substance, and evidence ain't a witness, as a start.

          >Does one have to identify themselves in such a procedure if there is
          >no complaining witness making an accusation? I am not clear on that
          >as to how to be in command with certainty in one's stance against
          the
          >proceeding. It may seem like a small issue, but it is important in
          >having confidence as a belligerent.

              It's a great issue and on point.
              An attorney for the plaintiff cannot admit evidence into the court.
          He is either an attorney or a witness.
          (Trinsey v Pagliaro D.C.Pa. 1964, 229 F. Supp. 647)
          "Statements of counsel in brief or in argument are not facts before
          the court).
              This applies both with FRE and State Rules of Evidence....there
          must be a competent first hand witness(a body).  Their has to be a
          real person making the complaint and bringing evidence before the
          court. Corporations are paper and can't testify.
              After I had submitted several affidavits(paper, not person) into a
          case the apposing parties attorney objected and said,
          "affidavits" can't be cross examined. (I didn't have the people
          there to testify)  The affidavits were inadmissible.
              This doesn't mean that the judge wont allow it if you don't object.
          In Michigans' District Courts, they allow it even if you object.
          Which isn't great, but when its on the record it stands forever as a
          voidable case which can be overturned at any time.

          my two bits,
          b1yatsar






        • Frog Farmer
          ... Back in the old days of honest judges it might have been okay, but why let a liar and cheat have any part of anything to do with you today? Here s what I
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
            mn_chicago [mailto:mn_chicago@...] wrote:

            > I understand the need to eliminate the attorney by demanding a license
            > and oath be produced, and same for the one leading the event. Given
            > that, if one were to proceed otherwise, wouldn't it be sufficient
            > to object to the process of lack of jurisdiction because there is
            > no complaining witness?

            Back in the old days of honest judges it might have been okay, but why
            let a liar and cheat have any part of anything to do with you today?

            Here's what I discovered when in court for years on end: dishonest
            scumbags will do the wrong thing in front of tons of witnesses and then
            require that YOU "appeal" their bad rulings. So, I came to the
            conclusion that "no rulings" was a better outcome than "bad rulings".

            > Certainly, the attorney cannot act as a witness in place of a
            > complaining party,

            But they act like witnesses in front of juries - are you betting your
            jury is smart enough not to be fooled? A bad bet today...

            > Does one have to identify themselves in such a procedure if there is
            > no complaining witness making an accusation?

            Show me a law where one is "required" to identify oneself, anywhere. I
            haven't carried ID for over 25 years. One may "have to" identify
            themselves to receive a benefit or privilege. Applying for benefits and
            privileges is voluntary and not mandatory.

            In court, one who wishes to avoid prosecution might wait to be
            identified by the injured party or a witness.

            > I am not clear on that
            > as to how to be in command with certainty in one's stance against the
            > proceeding.

            If you're really "against the proceeding" you won't be caught acting in
            it. If you're against the people initiating the proceeding, you might
            try to disqualify them before they can act.

            > It may seem like a small issue, but it is important in
            > having confidence as a belligerant.
            > ...
            > To be effective, one has to act with the belligerent confidence
            > (or is it confident belligerence?) of Frog Farmer, and know that what
            > is being claimed/challenged/demanded has no weak link.

            I won most of my cases the wrong way. Every time I went to court, I
            learned that I could have done better if I had prepared better
            beforehand. I don't see any benefit to moving forward if it can be
            prevented. George Gordon taught me not to move forward voluntarily.
            Skipping stages at which one could make valid objections is the same as
            voluntarily moving forward and cooperating in one's own prosecution.

            > > What standing does a judge have in an action that has
            > > not been commenced?
            >
            > ...which addresses the issues I raised above. Are they sufficient
            > to preclude going forward, at that point, with the issue of license
            > or oath not a part of the discussion?

            Nothing is sufficient anymore. You never know what to expect, even
            though the law pretty much spells out how stuff is "supposed" to go, I
            felt that every time I made the mistake of pointing out a new law for
            public servants to follow, they'd react immediately by violating the law
            I pointed out. Government actors are flagrantly violating the law
            everywhere, so why think they will suddenly follow the law for YOU?
            Yes, a case may be won at almost any stage of the proceedings, but why
            invite more chances to fail by experiencing more stages than absolutely
            necessary? Why not get the most out of your forced court education by
            doing the very best you can to win at every single stage you reach?
            [Bear, I'm really not trying to do Socratic teaching by asking these
            questions - it's just the way I think, so, to show you, I'm going to try
            to convert them into statements, now that they are committed to writing
            and I won't forget them. If I were to take the time to try to convert
            all my questions to statements in "real time" I'd forget what I was
            going to say. So now I'll try to prove I'm not attempting "Socratic
            Teaching Method". Let's take my questions one at a time and see if I
            can get the idea across without a question mark at the end:

            1. Government actors are flagrantly violating the law everywhere, so why
            think they will suddenly follow the law for YOU?

            Answer: Government actors are flagrantly violating the law everywhere,
            and since I became a professional "gambler" (I don't think it's gambling
            really, I use data and analyze it for probabilities, and I failed math
            in high school too) a few years ago because of my inability to find
            enough people to be free and exercise liberty with and trade without
            FRNs enough to keep me alive in necessaries, I would not bet that
            currently employed paycheck anticipators would buck the trend and apply
            the law in your favor. I would bet heavily that they would instead rule
            against you and make you perform like a seal jumping through hoops all
            the way to see the cherry trees in bloom in Washington D.C. (but don't
            blame me if they're not in bloom when you get there.)

            2. Yes, a case may be won at almost any stage of the proceedings, but
            why invite more chances to fail by experiencing more stages than
            absolutely necessary?

            Answer: Yes, a case may be won at almost any stage of the proceedings,
            and one may decide to invite more chances to fail by experiencing more
            stages than absolutely necessary! More chances to win = more chances to
            fail. In poker (I was professionally trained to win last year and am
            pretty good right now), patience is a virtue. One does better trying to
            win a few large pots than a lot of little ones. When you go "all-in"
            you'd better "have the nuts" (the best possible hand). It is my own
            considered opinion borne out by over 25 years of experience, that it's
            easier to beat one person in front of you, in mental gymnastics
            ("curbside court", "your front door", wherever the IMOC transpires) than
            it is to argue with a coordinated trained team of paid professionals in
            a setting in which they feel more comfortable.

            One question I often ask people is, "was this your idea, or did someone
            who may not love you that much put you up to it to see how you handle
            me?" "Could someone want you gone from the office for good? Because if
            you irritate me, I'm like a bear trap ready to step on, and I'm afraid
            you cannot see through the camouflage well enough to keep your ankles
            functional as a pants holder."

            3. Why not get the most out of your forced court education by doing the
            very best you can to win at every single stage you reach?

            Answer: I recommend getting the most out of your forced court education
            by doing the very best you can to win at every single stage you reach!

            That was an easy one, Bear! I think I might be getting the hang of
            this!

            I admit, in one of my cases I waived a lot because I knew I would win on
            appeal, and I was too lazy to fight as hard as I could, as I was
            fighting several cases at the same time, and wanted to reduce my
            workload. It was a mistake. It cost me a lot more time and effort to
            go back and correct errors I could have more easily decided not to make
            in the first place. My new theory is, win early, win fast. So, now I
            am either trying to win at the IMOC (Initial Moment Of Confrontation) or
            prior to trial with disqualifications and objections to faulty
            arraignments. Counsel is an issue beginning with any in-custody
            interrogation, per Miranda, and applies at every meaningful stage of the
            proceedings. I think many people choose to waive one issue or another,
            banking on one they think is an obvious winner, but like I said above,
            it seems if you point out a law, they'll break it. They don't appear to
            honor Supreme Court decisions. In my case, I think I sent the message
            that I'm not economically worth messing with. George Gordon taught us
            how to run up the bill on them, in their own paycheck anticipation
            system. It can be fun if one has nothing better to do. I think all my
            cases probably cost them at least 5,000 "USD" each. One (the longest
            biggest fight, to appeal) was over $14 I refused to pay for a dog
            license. That was the case I cut my teeth on. For someone trembling in
            fear over going to court, picking a case where one can afford to lose
            might be worth the losses, but even better if one tries to win it. Once
            you realize (I guess only if you're in California??) that they need so
            many pieces of the puzzle to fall into place to convict you, and that
            most people put those pieces into place FOR THEM (out of na�ve
            ignorance??), you can decide to refrain from pointing out pieces, and
            from putting them in place for your opponents. Just doing that would
            increase wins by hundreds of percent.

            > > The law tells us what is a sufficient accusatory instrument.
            > > Either those elements are in the record of the court or they are
            > > not. It's black or white.

            True, but how many people go in with the conviction that they can tell
            night from day without "asking the judge"? Darn, there I go again!!
            Okay, If you ask me, hardly ANYONE can tell black from white because
            they never take the time or make the effort to crack open the book and
            spend an hour or two researching their own cases. I know The Handyman
            cracks the books, and Bear does, and a lot of others on this specialized
            list of law hobbyists, but most people on the freeway out there won't do
            it. They'll call a lawyer and feel smug about it.

            > > If those elements are not in the
            > > record, the jurisdiction of the court has not been invoked,

            And so one needs to be able to recognize a real from a fake, on every
            level, with every thing, starting with the first verbal or written claim
            ever made (the IMOC). Going next to the one making the claim. And next
            to his accomplices. And next to compiling a file of evidence for each
            co-conspirator. It's a lot of work to fight to win. Or I should say,
            it can be. Winning can also be surprisingly easy, where you don't see
            it coming and suddenly they've capitulated. Victory!

            > > court is powerless to issue ANY lawful process (summons or warrant)
            > > and any alleged order of a court acting absent jurisdiction is void
            > > ab initio.

            None of my neighbors seem to currently hold this concept in their heads.
            They tend to think that because things are the way they are right now,
            there must be a reason they cannot understand that would excuse it all.
            They accept an unelected president. They accept lies and murders. They
            aren't ready to stand up and "fight city hall". What a stupid phrase!
            There's no cohesion anymore, People! The Rats are deserting the Sinking
            Ship!

            > I have been to the law library to research precisely what is a
            > complaining witness, and I looked up corporations. All it says is
            > that a corp has to be represented by an attorney.

            So, here in California we torpedo the attorneys with Business and
            Professions Code 6067 et seq. Not too hard to do, if someone has the
            power of speech.

            > As to witnesses,
            > it goes into issues of being an actual witness, not a complaining
            > party.

            Yeah, and does even Wikipedia say that if you go out in the rain,
            "wetness" is imparted? Some things are just so obvious, for example,
            that a complaining party would be a witness to the injury. I guess
            there could be cases where he isn't aware of the injury and there were
            other witnesses around, but most rights cases involve somebody being put
            off enough to complain when their rights are violated. I do get what is
            being said about the lack of a complainant though, and that is true.
            Remember, there's a step one can put in, where one denies the existence
            of the corporate entity claimed to be represented by the attorney who
            came to court without his papers being in order. Should we believe him
            about anything? I won't. But many people WILL! That is the point.
            One has to know both in court and in poker, what one will do when a
            situation arises. Will one waive rights in order to look "cooperative"?
            When I have been called "uncooperative" in court, I have answered that
            "I am not here to cooperate."

            > Reading between the lines sometimes appears as invisible to me.
            > Until I have clarity, I harbor doubt.

            I would say, everything is in us, and we should not look to our
            oppressors for anything.

            > Once I have clarity, you will
            > finding me standing right behind the resident Farmer, and even trying
            > to push him out of the way so I can get my turn.

            You can have it. I'm not in the way! And I'm not a "resident".

            Regards,

            FF
          • Michael Noonan
            ... That I took removing atty for lack of license out of the equation, does not mean I would not use it. I already sent a letter to a Calif senior counsel
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
              --- Frog Farmer <frogfrmr@...> wrote:

              >
              > But they act like witnesses in front of juries - are
              > you betting your
              > jury is smart enough not to be fooled? A bad bet
              > today...

              That I took removing atty for lack of license out of
              the equation, does not mean I would not use it. I
              already sent a letter to a Calif "senior counsel" for
              a national lender...one who called my position
              "frivolous and irrelevant,"...stating that I wanted to

              see hoe relevant she was, and I told her how Calif
              requires a very specific oath, which she lacked...no
              oath, no office. I warned her not to pose as an atty
              against me, and that I could help her find the oath if
              she couldn't.

              That was mid-November '06. Haven't heard back from
              her since.

              In Illinois, the attorney oath is not as clear as in
              Calif. It does state that an atty must take an oath
              "in the following form substantially..." and that the
              oath must then be certified on the license.

              The word "substantially" leaves wiggle room.

              I received a letter from an attorney saying I had 30
              days to request verification, but legal proceedings
              did
              not have to wait 30 days.

              On the letter head was a list of about 25 attorneys,
              each with an asterisk after their name that indicated
              they were "licensed" in Illinois.

              I sent a Constructive Notice and Demand that each and
              every atty listed send me a copy of their license and
              oath of office to the Constitution of the United
              States and the state of Illinois, giving them 10 days
              to respond. That was on 19 January.

              I sent a certified letter to the clerk of the Illinois

              supreme court asking for a copy of the license for the

              head atty, as a test, sending 4 quarters as payment.

              The clerk sent me a copy of the statutory oath of
              office required to be taken, and a her certified copy
              of a certificate from her stating the atty did take
              the oath and was put on the Roll, so is a licensed
              atty to practice law in Illinois.

              She then said that executed oaths of office are not
              available to the public.

              Two days ago, I sent the group of attys another
              letter reminding them I had not received any license
              or withdrawal of their otherwise unlawful request,
              and then requested a copy of their insurance company
              name that covers them or their bond, giving them 3
              days to respond.

              Now, I get to ask the supreme clerk court why she
              didn't send me a copy of the license with the
              certified oath inscribed on the license, citing the
              statute and telling her that is the copy I want, not
              her certified certificate.

              Plus, I will ask her for the specific statute that
              exempts attys from having to comply with the law.

              So, it ain't as though I am not pursuing the
              elimination of anyone who chooses to tangle with me.

              As to the alleged "Lender," I have a file folder two
              inches thick with my correspondence demanding that
              they prove they made an actual loan of money, and
              proof that they are the holder in due course, entitled
              to collect.

              I have sent letters to the CEO, CFO, and Senior Dept
              Manager, all certified, all in the form of Notice and
              Demand, and all properly Notary Protest complete for
              non-responsive replies.

              My file on the Servicing agent is half as thick, but
              growing, as I warn them about what they are trying to
              do without providing substantial proof.

              I have spent the last 6 months preparing for what is
              about to unfold, inviting it, indirectly, with my
              demands for answers, none of which have been answered.

              Part of that preparation is being ready in the event
              that my preemptive efforts, very diligent, somehow are
              not respected as valid, so I want to be as equally
              prepared in the "party room," even if it be but a step
              on the way to appeals.

              Frankly, with the information and tools I have at my
              disposal, I would be surprised if it ever makes it to
              court, but I do not want to leave any stone unturned.



              > Show me a law where one is "required" to identify
              > oneself, anywhere.
              > In court, one who wishes to avoid prosecution might
              > wait to be
              > identified by the injured party or a witness.

              The question was courtroom specific, in the event it
              got to that point, when my "name" would be called out
              by the clerk, not the "judge" or "atty-in-form-of-
              witness-or-whatever-(s)he-can-get-away-with."

              How to respond was my issue, without admitting into
              jurisdiction.

              Keep in mind, I would also have already used a
              subpoena
              duces tecum on the atty to produce the license/oath,
              and I would by then also know whose oath of judicial
              office I would need.

              > Government actors are flagrantly violating the law
              > everywhere, so why think they will suddenly follow
              > the law for YOU?

              That is why I want to be fully prepared, even after
              all peremptory strikes.

              As to the reference to FF being "resident," it was in
              the non-Black's way, but point taken. And yes, I
              misspelled "propria,"... thank you.

              Cheers, all.

              mn



              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Finding fabulous fares is fun.
              Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
              http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
            • Frog Farmer
              ... Ever hear of an appearance without an appearance? Google appearance without an appearance . One time my friend showed up for an arraignment with three
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
                Michael Noonan [mailto:mn_chicago@...] wrote:

                > The question was courtroom specific, in the event it
                > got to that point, when my "name" would be called out
                > by the clerk, not the "judge" or "atty-in-form-of-
                > witness-or-whatever-(s)he-can-get-away-with."
                >
                > How to respond was my issue, without admitting into
                > jurisdiction.

                Ever hear of an appearance without an appearance?

                Google "appearance without an appearance".

                One time my friend showed up for an arraignment with three witnesses who
                made affidavits to that effect. He did not respond when they called his
                name, and nobody there pointed out that he was there, no accuser, no
                prosecutor, nobody. The judge put out a bench warrant anyway. The
                affidavits were filed into the record the next day. Bench warrants in
                California are mere computer entries with no paperwork and thus invalid,
                like a notice of lien without a lien is no good.

                Regards,

                FF
              • diggerflyer
                I love it! The imposters in black robes are all stirred up! November 9, 2007 Thousands of petty criminals could have their convictions thrown out and millions
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 12, 2007
                  I love it! The imposters in black robes are all stirred up!


                  November 9, 2007
                  Thousands of petty criminals could have their convictions thrown out
                  and millions of dollars in fines refunded because Spokane County
                  District Court judges overstepped their authority for more than a
                  decade by improperly handling city cases, an appeals court ruled
                  Thursday.
                  The decision, which overturns two otherwise simple drunken driving
                  convictions, has such far-reaching implications that it could trigger
                  what's believed to be the largest legal debacle of overturned Spokane
                  Municipal Court cases in city history.
                  Unless the decision is overturned by the Washington Supreme Court,
                  the ruling would invalidate every DUI and domestic violence
                  conviction, and all contested speeding and parking tickets issued
                  between 1995 and Jan. 1, several legal and court officials said.
                  "It's potentially a huge, huge impact – and we're trying to deal with
                  it in an orderly fashion," said Sara Derr, who serves as the District
                  Court presiding judge.
                  Local attorney Breean Beggs – who brought the lawsuit that generated
                  the ruling – questions why the city didn't do more to avert the
                  crisis it now faces.
                  "It was preventable," Beggs said. "The city had the opportunity over
                  the last two years to resolve this particular case in a way that
                  would not have resulted in this ruling … and there would be no
                  jeopardy to these other cases."

                  The flaw came in how the judges were elected, according to the 2-1
                  decision by the state Court of Appeals Division III.
                  State law mandates that Spokane residents alone elect the judges who
                  handle municipal cases, such as trespassing, shoplifting, speeding
                  and DUI within city limits.
                  But in Spokane, an agreement was struck between the city and county
                  to assign District Court judges – who are chosen by voters in
                  countywide elections – to preside over the city's municipal court
                  caseload. Beggs successfully argued it violated state law because
                  voters outside Spokane city limits were allowed to choose city judges.
                  "We conclude … that the way in which the Spokane municipal judges are
                  elected is contrary to state law," appellate judge Dennis Sweeney
                  wrote in Thursday's opinion. Judge John Schultheis concurred, but
                  judge Stephen Brown dissented.
                  City officials, lawyers and judges scrambled for most of the day to
                  determine how to proceed, city spokeswoman Marlene Feist said.
                  City Prosecutor Howard Delaney "plans to seek some clarification on
                  the decision from the court of appeals," she said. "He is also trying
                  to take some immediate steps on the most pressing issues, such as
                  outstanding misdemeanor warrants. And he has asked jail officials how
                  many inmates are currently being held on convictions from municipal
                  court."
                  Spokane County sheriff's deputies and city police have stopped
                  executing misdemeanor warrants involving city cases related to
                  alleged crimes prior to Jan. 1.
                  Judge Derr said the ruling "essentially says that we have no
                  authority to handle city cases until this year. We are attempting to
                  comply with the order of the court, to the best of our ability and as
                  quickly as possible."
                  The court instituted technical changes this year that brought it
                  under compliance with state law, she said.
                  Although there's a legal 30-day "reconsideration period" for the
                  ruling, court officials are not going to wait, Derr said. However,
                  court clerks are not going to start issuing refunds for fines and
                  fees today, Derr added.
                  "Until we have information on those fees and fines, we ask everybody
                  to be calm – we'll certainly get to everybody," Derr said.
                  The trigger case began in 2005 when Spokane residents Henry Smith and
                  Lawrence Rothwell challenged their DUI convictions under the argument
                  that District Judge Patti Connolly Walker lacked jurisdiction to
                  decide their case because they were both arrested in Spokane city
                  limits.
                  Judge Walker, who was elected in a countywide race, denied their
                  motions. Smith and Rothwell appealed the case to Spokane Superior
                  Court Judge Rebecca Baker. She likewise ruled that Walker had
                  jurisdiction.
                  With the help of Beggs, an attorney for the public interest law firm
                  Center for Justice, Smith and Rothwell appealed their case to the
                  State Court of Appeals Division III.
                  Along with conviction reversals, the case could have "unimaginable"
                  effects that could take years to unravel, said Superior Court Judge
                  Sam Cozza. For instance, if a DUI conviction is reversed, court
                  records must be changed, any subsequent convictions would be altered,
                  and the state would have to change the offender's driving record.
                  Last year alone, Spokane Municipal Court handled 25,104 traffic
                  tickets, 608 DUIs, and more than 10,000 misdemeanor crimes, including
                  serious traffic charges, according to the state Office of the
                  Administrator for the Courts.
                  "Those are all kind of thrown into a state of uncertainty," Judge
                  Cozza said.
                  In addition to evaluating the local impact of the appellate court
                  ruling, Derr's office has sent a query to the Administrative Office
                  of the Courts in Olympia to assist with an analysis of the fiscal
                  impact.
                  "As we speak, we are running queries in our system. We'll be meeting
                  all day" today, Derr said. "We need to minimize the risk to the
                  citizens."
                • diggerflyer
                  ... I would add: How about in your city/county jurisdiction? How are they doing business compared to this quagmire? Could you perhaps challenge jurisdiction
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 13, 2007
                    --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "diggerflyer" <Riverway@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I love it! The imposters in black robes are all stirred up!
                    >
                    >
                    > November 9, 2007
                    > Thousands of petty criminals could have their convictions thrown out
                    > and millions of dollars in fines refunded because Spokane County
                    > District Court judges overstepped their authority for more than a
                    > decade by improperly handling city cases, an appeals court ruled
                    > Thursday.



                    I would add:

                    How about in your city/county jurisdiction? How are they doing
                    business compared to this quagmire? Could you perhaps challenge
                    jurisdiction there as well?

                    Diggerflyer
                  • Jake
                    Adding to my previous comments in the Texas Appeals Court Denies Sovereign Citizen Defense thread, regarding the fact that filing a motion gives the court
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 12, 2010
                      Adding to my previous comments in the "Texas Appeals Court Denies Sovereign Citizen Defense" thread, regarding the fact that filing a "motion" gives the court you file it in jurisdiction over you, if you plan to challenge jurisdiction, you can use a filing few people know of, called a "Plea in Bar".  Here's part of the definition from Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. (p. 1152):

                         Plea in bar. A plea which goes to bar the plaintiff's action; that is, to defeat it absolutely and entirely. A plea in bar sets forth matters which per se destroy the right of action and bar its prosecution absolutely ... U.S. v. Brodson, C.A. Wisc., 234 F.2d 97, 99. A plea in bar is one that denies the plaintiff's right to maintain the action and which, if established, will destroy the action. Gillikin v. Gillikin, 248 N.C. 710; 104 S.E.2d 861, 862.

                      You can also file a "Notice of Special Appearance" which states that you appear "under duress" & that the only reason you appear is to challenge the jurisdiction of the State and/or the court over you. Now it's going to vary a great deal from State to State & will depend on the case law there, but for North Carolina, I cited a N.C. supreme court ruling that changed the burden of proof from the "defendant" in a criminal action to the State:

                           State Has Burden to Show Jurisdiction.— The question of jurisdiction of the courts in this state in a criminal case is not an independent, distinct, substantive matter of exemption, immunity or defense and ought not to be regarded as an affirmative defense on which the defendant must bear the burden of proof. Rather, jurisdiction is a matter which, when contested, should be proven by the prosecution as a prerequisite to the authority of the court to enter judgment.
                           When jurisdiction is challenged, in a criminal case, the State must carry the burden and show beyond a reasonable doubt that North Carolina has jurisdiction to try the accused. Former cases holding that a challenge to the jurisdiction is an affirmative defense with the burden of persuasion on the accused are no longer authoritative.
                           - State v. Batdorf, 293 N.C. 486, 238 S.E.2d 497 (1977).

                      We have used the "Notice of Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar" strategy successfully several times, with the result being the prosecutor stands up & says, "State takes a voluntary dismissal, your honor." In other words, rather than try to prove that the State / court has the jurisdiction to try the accused, the assistant district attny. just dismisses the case. Which is fine if you're the accused, but such an action does NOT set a "legal precedent" - it just ends that particular case.

                      And all the cases have involved relatively minor driving issues, such as no driver's license, a claim of a revoked license, speeding, running a red light, etc. & in no case was there an "injured party" - like somebody getting hurt in a wreck the "defendant" allegedly caused. And in each case the individual who filed the "Notice of Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar" used the term "Respondent" rather than "Defendant" - I'm "responding" to your accusation(s), not "defending" & until the State proves its courts have jurisdiction, we can't go any farther. And I'm not going to "traverse" into subject-matter either - that's another term to learn - once you start arguing over the subject-matter, you just gave the court jurisdiction.

                      Now I'm not saying the "Notice of Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar" strategy always works because it hasn't & there are WAY too many variables from one situation to another to say there's a "one size fits all" method to use, but it is something you can investigate yourself, going by the case law which applies in the State you live in. You could do it on the federal level too, although I've not seen anybody do it & I've never needed to. But neither of those filings constitute a "motion" & neither give the court jurisdiction over you, which filing a "motion" and/or "traversing" into subject-matter arguments does.

                      ~ ~ ~

                    • Barry
                      A search at www.versuslaw.com for the phrase lack of jurisdiction turned up over 200 results. I learned quite a bit about
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 13, 2010

                        A search at www.versuslaw.com for the phrase "lack of jurisdiction" turned up over 200 results. I learned quite a bit about jurisdiction, both civil and criminal, by just perusing a few of the cases.

                         

                        A few things I already knew about jurisdiction to be researched in whatever state you are in for applicability:

                         

                        A court always has jurisdiction to determine if it has jurisdiction

                         

                        Filing a motion cannot confer subject matter jurisdiction when there is none.

                         

                        Plea in abatement, plea in bar, and special appearance are now embodied in Rule 12 of both civil and criminal rules when your state uses a federal numbering system. It is no longer necessary to invoke the magic words "appearing specially", it is now possible to raise that single issue via motion.

                         

                        With respect to personam jurisdiction (jurisdiction over the person), if you put in any other motions, raise any other issues in your motion, or, file any other motion raising any other issue besides the issue of personam jurisdiction you cure the lack of personam jurisdiction issue for your opponent and waive the issue.

                         

                        When jurisdiction is challenged, the burden is on the one asserting it to prove it. If a judge sets out to prove his jurisdiction for one of the parties, he just showed his bias because he carried one of the parties burden.

                         

                        Federal district courts are courts of limited jurisdiction. Pleadings invoking their jurisdiction must have a jurisdictional statement. Any state court that has a jurisdictional Dollar amount or is limited to hearing misdemeanors or petty offenses is a court of limited jurisdiction. If the court can hear felony charges and civil matters of any amount it is a court of general jurisdiction whose jurisdiction is only limited by statute. No jurisdictional statement is required in pleadings invoking a court of general jurisdictions jurisdiction.

                         

                        Phone Contact: 720-675-7230

                        Best times to call: 8:30 am-9:00 pm MST

                        Bear's Pages: www.irsterminator.com www.legalbears.com www.legalbearsblog.com

                        www.irslienthumper.com www.irslevythumper.com www.irs-armory.com www.freedivorceforms.net

                        www.cantheydothat.com (a free lien evaluation) www.trafficrocketblog.com Send an email to:

                        tips_and_tricks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to join Tips & Tricks for Court Group

                         

                      • Frog Farmer
                        ... You don t even need paper when you do it in the continuation of the IMOC (Initial Moment Of Confrontation) and get to the immediately provided magistrate
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 13, 2010
                          Jake wrote:
                          >
                          > Adding to my previous comments in the "Texas Appeals Court Denies
                          > Sovereign Citizen Defense" thread, regarding the fact that filing a
                          > "motion" gives the court you file it in jurisdiction over you, if you
                          > plan to challenge jurisdiction, you can use a filing few people know
                          > of, called a "Plea in Bar".
                          ...
                          > You can also file a "Notice of Special Appearance" which states that
                          > you appear "under duress" & that the only reason you appear is to
                          > challenge the jurisdiction of the State and/or the court over you.

                          You don't even need paper when you do it in the continuation of the IMOC
                          (Initial Moment Of Confrontation) and get to the "immediately" provided
                          magistrate because you were not "free to go". If you performed a mutual
                          citizens arrest of the impersonator who was hoping to use you for added
                          booty, this is where you'd turn him in and then you SHOULD be free to
                          go, unless a probable cause hearing shows otherwise, but then already
                          certain required parties are and have been "missing in action".

                          Most people waive the opportunity to discuss these things in chambers
                          before a hearing. Doing so can save all a lot of wasted time and work.

                          > it's going to vary a great deal from State to State & will depend on
                          > the case law there, but for North Carolina, I cited a N.C. supreme
                          > court ruling that changed the burden of proof from the "defendant" in
                          > a criminal action to the State:

                          The "defendant" is a party well along the slippery slope to conviction.

                          The key to winning your freedom is to not become a defendant. There are
                          hundreds of opportunities to avoid becoming the defendant during and
                          after the IMOC right up until voire dire of potential jurors. This is
                          because becoming the defendant is not a matter of choice or opinion but
                          is a matter of facts set into the record. If certain requirements are
                          not met, the accused may act and sound like a defendant, but he isn't
                          really one. Isn't that the way with so many things today??!

                          So, people will be cunningly coerced to pretend that they are defendants
                          (and I must say for all the NEWBIES, I'm strictly speaking for where I
                          am, in northwest North Mexico just south of the Oregon line, otherwise
                          known as "northern California" before "The State of California" went
                          bankrupt) and will be told that they are defendants. If they are
                          sheeple, they "baaahhh" and go into one process. If they are aware
                          Americans with rights who aren't part of the indentured servitude, they
                          may let it be known and be afforded a different process. It requires
                          them to control their own court. Few are even aware of the concept.

                          > Former cases holding
                          > that a challenge to the jurisdiction is an affirmative defense with
                          > the burden of persuasion on the accused are no longer authoritative.
                          > - State v. Batdorf, 293 N.C. 486, 238 S.E.2d 497 (1977).

                          Progress! I'm not going to hang my hat on it here. The game is really
                          over here. But you know those "aficionados"! You can�t get them off
                          the field!

                          > We have used the "Notice of Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar"
                          > strategy successfully several times, with the result being the
                          > prosecutor stands up & says, "State takes a voluntary dismissal, your
                          > honor." In other words, rather than try to prove that the State /
                          > court has the jurisdiction to try the accused, the assistant district
                          > attny. just dismisses the case. Which is fine if you're the accused,
                          > but such an action does NOT set a "legal precedent" - it just ends
                          > that particular case.

                          Yes...here that would come after a long process of wasted time, and the
                          odds are that there really IS "no case" to be tried under constitutional
                          and statutory definitions, but there COULD be a "revenue producing
                          affair" for any number of parties IF a sufficiently na�ve and gullible
                          SHEEPLE is the target. This is what happens most of the time.

                          > And all the cases have involved relatively minor driving issues, such
                          > as no driver's license, a claim of a revoked license, speeding,
                          > running a red light, etc. & in no case was there an "injured party" -
                          > like somebody getting hurt in a wreck the "defendant" allegedly
                          > caused. And in each case the individual who filed the "Notice of
                          > Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar" used the term "Respondent" rather
                          > than "Defendant" - I'm "responding" to your accusation(s), not
                          > "defending" & until the State proves its courts have jurisdiction, we
                          > can't go any farther.

                          Good one saying he wasn't the defendant, but he didn't really appear to
                          know WHY...if it was California. If it was New York, I hear anything
                          can happen!

                          > And I'm not going to "traverse" into subject-
                          > matter either - that's another term to learn - once you start arguing
                          > over the subject-matter, you just gave the court jurisdiction.

                          "Traverse" comes into play in the IMOC!! And is usually RECORDED now!

                          > Now I'm not saying the "Notice of Special Appearance" & "Plea in Bar"
                          > strategy always works because it hasn't

                          That's like saying "The Hammer Strategy" will not always work".

                          > & there are WAY too many
                          > variables from one situation to another to say there's a "one size
                          > fits all" method to use, but it is something you can investigate
                          > yourself, going by the case law which applies in the State you live
                          > in. You could do it on the federal level too, although I've not seen
                          > anybody do it & I've never needed to. But neither of those filings
                          > constitute a "motion" & neither give the court jurisdiction over you,
                          > which filing a "motion" and/or "traversing" into subject-matter
                          > arguments does.

                          Good info, but coming late after the IMOC, may involve more work than
                          was actually necessary. Before paper, verbal trial balloons are floated
                          in a non-official setting, such as in back seat or in chambers, and so
                          paper may not have to be created to get the desired effect, just letting
                          the other side know what is coming may be enough. So I take things one
                          step at a time from the IMOC and usually the meeting draws to a quick
                          close. To NOT continue non-stop from the IMOC ADMITS too many necessary
                          facts for the record. I let the pizza on the front seat get stone cold
                          if necessary, and do what I have to do immediately until it is over and
                          I am either arraigned or free. And there are over a hundred steps
                          before arraignment possible! Collect the trading card set!

                          Maybe this site should create and market a set of cards to carry on you
                          that could also be used to play poker. But there are only 52 of those,
                          so at least there'd have to be Deck I and Deck II.

                          Regards,

                          FF
                        • andrewswayne31
                          Hi everyone. I have researched past posts dealing with jurisdiction and not found info that I want. If a court claims not to have jurisdiction because the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 6, 2014
                            Hi everyone.  I have researched past posts dealing with jurisdiction and not found info that I want.  If a court claims not to have jurisdiction because the defendants were not properly served and still renders a decision, does the decision have any force of law?  I don't know where to find information of that type and could use some help.  Thanks, Wayne
                          • andrewswayne31
                            Hi, I want to thank everyone who helped in this situation. The information is very much appreciated and valuable. Wayne
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 8, 2014
                              Hi, I want to thank everyone who helped in this situation.  The information is very much appreciated and valuable.  Wayne
                            • realtor realtor
                              In the case of a courts admission it does not have jurisdiction on the record a motion to vacate void judgment for lack of jurisdiction is in order.... Then
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 8, 2014
                                In the case of a courts admission it does not have jurisdiction on the record a "motion to vacate void judgment for lack of jurisdiction" is in order.... Then in the instance of a denial of that motion to "appeal the decision" Finding case law would be to type into your search engines "void judgment for lack of subject matter jurisdiction" and in your case "void judgment for lack of personal jurisdiction" in hind sight. improper or no service can be challenged by the defendant prior to any proceedings by "filing by special appearance a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction" or "appearing specially" to challenge jurisdiction. May our Fathers wisdom make clear your path!
                                Mark 


                                On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:58 AM, <wayne@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Hi everyone.  I have researched past posts dealing with jurisdiction and not found info that I want.  If a court claims not to have jurisdiction because the defendants were not properly served and still renders a decision, does the decision have any force of law?  I don't know where to find information of that type and could use some help.  Thanks, Wayne




                                --
                                Mark Austin
                                American Dreamer
                                Fitness at your fingertips
                                (505)860-0345
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.