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Re: [tips_and_tricks] Rebutting W-2s and 1099s

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  • JD
    I have a question. How is the W-2 sent to the IRS? In what format or what form is used to transmit the W-2 to the IRS? Thanks ... From: Woodboy This I have
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
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      I have a question.  How is the W-2 sent to the IRS?  In what format or what form is used to transmit the W-2 to the IRS?  Thanks
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Woodboy

      This I have done and am now obliged to respond to frivolous return charges, while they plod ahead and send me their figures of what they say I "owe" in taxes. What can one say to that?

      The W-2 and 1099 must be rebutted. The way to rebut the W-2 is with a 4852. The way to rebut the 1099 is to fill out a new blank one stating the actual
      amount of wages ($0.00) you received, then at the top of the form mark it as "CORRECTED". This is your admissable credible evidence.

    • Woodboy
      ... I cannot say for sure. The old method was to bundle all the W-2s and attach a W-3 transmittal form. The W-3 contained a jurat signed under penalty of
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
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        At 6/2/2006 12:51 PM, you wrote:
        I have a question.  How is the W-2 sent to the IRS?  In what format or what form is used to transmit the W-2 to the IRS?  Thanks

        I cannot say for sure. The old method was to bundle all the W-2s and attach a W-3 transmittal form. The W-3 contained a jurat signed under penalty of perjury that the information was true, complete, and correct. Arguably that W-3 satisfied the requirements of section 6061 and 6065 and the nominal rules of evidence.

        I suspect today, at least for larger corporations and companies, that the documents are submitted electronically. Thus, I have to wonder how the W-3 is signed to satisfy sections 6061 and 6065.

        I am reasonably certain that regardless of how the documents are submitted these days that once the data is moved into the IRS computers system that the original W-2/W-3 documents are destroyed. I presume this because when people ask for copies of the original documents they are told the documents do not exist and instead they are sent computer print-outs or are told to request a duplicate copy from the original payer.

        If these original documents do not exist then I think this raises some serious and interesting challenges with the rules of evidence. Just my opinion and IANAL.
      • Circuitman
        W2 s are not sent directly to the IRS. As I understand the process, the company issuing the W2 for each employee sends all W2 s at one time with a W3. The W3
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
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          W2's are not sent directly to the IRS. As I understand the process, the company issuing the W2 for each "employee" sends all W2's at one time with a W3. The W3 is called "Transmittal of Wage and Tax Statements" and contains the signature of the company representative under a jurat, testifying to its accuracy. However, the W3 instructs the issuer to send them to the Social Security Administration, not to the IRS. The IRS most likely gets a computer transcript from SSA for all W2's, which would be why they can't produce the original. What SSA does with the original W2's and W3 is unknown, but they may destroy it after entering the data as the IRS does.

          When I requested all copies of W2's and 1099's from the IRS with form 4506T they sent transcripts of the W2's but a copy of the original 1099. It could be because there were no taxes withheld for the amount paid.

          Dan



          At 12:51 PM 6/2/2006 -0500, you wrote:
          I have a question.  How is the W-2 sent to the IRS?  In what format or what form is used to transmit the W-2 to the IRS?  Thanks

          Dan the CircuitMan

          CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE - This e-mail communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited, unless otherwise authorized herein. Access to this e-mail by any other person/entity is unauthorized.

        • Woodboy
          ... This response raises the same issues of evidence that I have been raising. The documents you received are not signed pursuant to sections 6061 and 6065.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
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            At 6/2/2006 02:29 PM, you wrote:
            W2's are not sent directly to the IRS. As I understand the process, the company issuing the W2 for each "employee" sends all W2's at one time with a W3. The W3 is called "Transmittal of Wage and Tax Statements" and contains the signature of the company representative under a jurat, testifying to its accuracy. However, the W3 instructs the issuer to send them to the Social Security Administration, not to the IRS. The IRS most likely gets a computer transcript from SSA for all W2's, which would be why they can't produce the original. What SSA does with the original W2's and W3 is unknown, but they may destroy it after entering the data as the IRS does.

            When I requested all copies of W2's and 1099's from the IRS with form 4506T they sent transcripts of the W2's but a copy of the original 1099. It could be because there were no taxes withheld for the amount paid.

            This response raises the same issues of evidence that I have been raising. The documents you received are not signed pursuant to sections 6061 and 6065. The transcripts (computer-print-outs) cannot be authenticated. The copy of the 1099 cannot be authenticated. None of the documents are accompanied with any testimony from a custodian with personal knowledge that the amounts reported are wages or gross income subject to taxation. None of these documents are testified as to being true, complete, and correct. None of these documents are accompanied with testimony that the original copies no longer exist and were not lost in bad faith.

            These documents are hearsay and none of the hearsay exemptions apply. Without testimony from a person with personal knowledge that the original documents were not lost due to bad faith, the documents do not satisfy the facsimile copy exceptions to the rules of evidence.

            None of these documents should be admissible as evidence. Without admissible evidence, the thieves can proceed to issue a NOD based only upon presumption and not facts in evidence.
          • JD
            If what you are saying is true, then why does one have to attach a W-2 with a return? ... From: Circuitman W2 s are not sent directly to the IRS. As I
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
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              If what you are saying is true, then why does one have to attach a W-2 with a return?
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----

              W2's are not sent directly to the IRS. As I understand the process, the company issuing the W2 for each "employee" sends all W2's at one time with a W3. The W3 is called "Transmittal of Wage and Tax Statements" and contains the signature of the company representative under a jurat, testifying to its accuracy. However, the W3 instructs the issuer to send them to the Social Security Administration, not to the IRS. The IRS most likely gets a computer transcript from SSA for all W2's, which would be why they can't produce the original. What SSA does with the original W2's and W3 is unknown, but they may destroy it after entering the data as the IRS does.

              When I requested all copies of W2's and 1099's from the IRS with form 4506T they sent transcripts of the W2's but a copy of the original 1099. It could be because there were no taxes withheld for the amount paid.

              Dan


            • Woodboy
              ... Self-incrimination. Actually, if one tries to explain this process from a legal perspective: The IRS thieves receive a statement from a third party, either
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2006
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                At 6/2/2006 04:16 PM, you wrote:
                If what you are saying is true, then why does one have to attach a W-2 with a return?

                Self-incrimination.

                Actually, if one tries to explain this process from a legal perspective:

                The IRS thieves receive a statement from a third party, either directly (1099s) or indirectly from the SSA (W-2s). Because of the sloppy and confusing manner in which the IRC is written, these statements are presumed to be reporting wages or gross income subject to taxation. Loosely, from a legal action perspective, these documents are similar to a complaint or accusation. The information return is an allegation.

                To ensure "due process," the third party is required to send a copy of that document to the "accused" or directly affected party. Through that effort notice is served of the allegations.

                Now, much like a civil action, the accused must respond to the allegations. If the accused responds simply by filing a tax return along with a copy of the accusing documents, the thieves do not stop to investigate the IRC to see if all the facts are correct. The thieves presume the parties know what they are doing. Additionally, much like any legal action, any allegation not disputed is deemed accepted, whether or not true.

                The next question to arise is how a person should dispute these allegations. That is the $64,000 question that many people lately have been trying to solve. The IRS thieves refuse to abide by any procedure that loosely resembles meaningful due process. In a typical civil action, a responding party does not jump immediately into trial to produce or impeach evidence, but simply responds to the complaint with responses of "affirm," "deny," or "without sufficient knowledge to form a response." Thereafter the judge and the enjoined parties proceed to trial to produce, impeach, sift, and weigh evidence.

                But the IRS administrative thieves refuse to abide by anything so reasonable. If the administrative procedure proceeded similarly to a civil action, then the next step after a rebuttal would be for the IRS thieves to proceed to an administrative investigation. After a rebuttal, the thieves possess two sets of opposing documents that creates a "did too, did not" conversation. Who to believe?

                In any legal action the initial burden of proof rests with the party making the claim and filing the complaint. Because the third party is the party issuing the allegation that the amounts reported are subject to taxation, that party needs to be the first party to move forward to validate the claim. This never happens. The IRS thieves do not operate in this manner. They instead prefer to proceed based upon presumption and stubbornly insist that the third party is correct. The thieves ignore any rebuttal effort.

                The alleged reason for allowing this presumptive process is that all the political thieves involved in this process---legislators, judges, bureaucrats, etc.---believe that tax collection must proceed in as efficient manner as possible. This might make sense for many other types of taxes where there is little dispute about the nature of the confiscation. But with respect to taxes on incomes, and especially when third parties are involved initiating allegations, this foundational reason seems to crumble under its own weight.

                Further confusion arises because nobody involved within the political process wants to come clean and explain the nature of the income tax. Add a tax code that is just that---a code that nobody understands fully---and the stage is set for anger, hostility, frustration, deception, and confusion.

                The problem today, however, is that people are scrambling trying to figure out how to overcome this presumptive process that never benefits the alleged taxpayer.
              • Gene Johnson
                How is the W-2 sent to the IRS, You send it. I am one of those mean old employer s that, rather than go to jail like Dick Simkanan did, I send in the
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2006
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                  How is the W-2 sent to the IRS, You send it.
                   
                  I am one of those mean old employer's that, rather than go to jail like Dick Simkanan did, I send in the "required" W-2 forms.
                   
                  (If you are not familiar with Dick Simkanan, he did not send in withholding taxes for his employees and the judge had to lie to the jury to get him convicted. A judge lying to the jury always works.)
                   
                  Copy A- goes to Social Security Administration
                  Copy B- to be filed with employee's federal tax return
                  Copy C- for employee's records
                  Copy D- stayes with employer
                  Copy 1- employer sends to state tax department with states yearly tax form for employers
                  Copy 2- is filed with employee's state tax return
                  The W-3 that Woodboy refers to is sent to social security adm. and yes, I sign it under penalties of perjury. Notice penalties is plural. The W-3 is a Transmittal of Wage and Tax Statements. W-2's for all employee's are sent with one W-3.
                   
                  So the IRS gets your W-2 from YOU. The employer does not send a W-2 to the IRS.
                   
                  My business is small with only 20-40 W-2's per year, so I send them paper.
                   
                   
                  Gene Johnson

                  Woodboy <woodboy@...> wrote:
                  At 6/2/2006 12:51 PM, you wrote:
                  I have a question.  How is the W-2 sent to the IRS?  In what format or what form is used to transmit the W-2 to the IRS?  Thanks

                  I cannot say for sure. The old method was to bundle all the W-2s and attach a W-3 transmittal form. The W-3 contained a jurat signed under penalty of perjury that the information was true, complete, and correct. Arguably that W-3 satisfied the requirements of section 6061 and 6065 and the nominal rules of evidence.

                  I suspect today, at least for larger corporations and companies, that the documents are submitted electronically. Thus, I have to wonder how the W-3 is signed to satisfy sections 6061 and 6065.

                  I am reasonably certain that regardless of how the documents are submitted these days that once the data is moved into the IRS computers system that the original W-2/W-3 documents are destroyed. I presume this because when people ask for copies of the original documents they are told the documents do not exist and instead they are sent computer print-outs or are told to request a duplicate copy from the original payer.

                  If these original documents do not exist then I think this raises some serious and interesting challenges with the rules of evidence. Just my opinion and IANAL.


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                • Kari
                  I was an Office Manager for over 8 years for the same company and I can assure you that all W-3 Transmittals along with the W-2 forms are always first sent to
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 7, 2006
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                    I was an Office Manager for over 8 years for the same company and I
                    can assure you that all W-3 Transmittals along with the W-2 forms are
                    always first sent to the SSA. SSA then forwards this same package on
                    to the IRS. The IRS always has an original W-2 directly from the
                    employer by way of the SSA. Any time a worker files an income tax
                    return and attaches his W-2 form to his 1040, that is the second W-2
                    form the IRS receives on behalf of that worker. This same event
                    happens with all 1099 forms. They are processed in exactly the same
                    manner as the W-3's and the W-2's.

                    It is vital that the SSA and the IRS receive both the W-3 Transmittal
                    signed under penalties of perjury by the employer along with the
                    W-2's that accompany the W-3. Both the IRS and the SSA will use the
                    W-3 sworn statement of the employer as there evidence that the worker
                    had income and the fact that the worker has a Social Security number
                    or a TIN. This is the evidence they use to determine a workers
                    liability and used against a worker in any tax court or income tax case.

                    Do not be mistaken about the W-2 or 1099 both of these forms are
                    submitted with a sworn statement form W-3 Transmittal of Wage and Tax
                    Statements attaches to the front of all W-2' and Form 1096 Annual
                    Summary & Transmittal attaches to the front of all 1099's, from the
                    employer directly to the SSA and then forwarded on by the SSA to the
                    IRS. All are sworn to under Penalties of Perjury.

                    Gene Johnson, is correct in the fact that if an employer has a TIN
                    that employer is required by law to submit the above mentioned
                    Transmittals and Forms to SSA who records the information into their
                    data base and then forwards them on to the IRS to be placed in their
                    data base.

                    The law can be found in the Social Security Act, which is under title
                    42 not in title 26 (where you would expect to find it). After reading
                    the Social Security Act many of my questions about the law "which
                    makes a person liable", were answered. Any one who has a Social
                    Security Number or a TIN is bound by the Act to comply.

                    The Social Security Act states in pertinant part:

                    TITLE VIII- TAXES WITH RESPECT TO EMPLOYMENT

                    INCOME TAX ON EMPLOYEES

                    SECTION 801. In addition to other taxes, there shall be levied,
                    collected, and paid upon the income of every individual a tax equal to
                    the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section 811)
                    received by him after December 31, 1936, with respect to employment
                    (as defined in section 811) after such date: (1) With respect to
                    employment during the calendar years 1937, 1938, and 1939, the rate
                    shall be 1 per centum. (2) With respect to employment during the
                    calendar years 1940, 1941, and 1942, the rate shall 1 ´ per centum.
                    (3) With respect to employment during the calendar years 1943, 1944,
                    and 1945, the rate shall be 2 per centum. (4) With respect to
                    employment during the calendar years 1946, 1947, and 1948, the rate
                    shall be 2 ´ per centum. (5) With respect to employment after December
                    31, 1948, the rate shall be 3 per centum.

                    DEDUCTION OF TAX FROM WAGES

                    SEC. 802. (a) The tax imposed by section 801 shall be collected by the
                    employer of the taxpayer by deducting the amount of the tax from the
                    wages as and when paid. Every employer required so to deduct the tax
                    is hereby made liable for the payment of such tax, and is hereby
                    indemnified against the claims and demands of any person for the
                    amount of any such payment made by such employer.

                    (b) If more or less than the correct amount of tax imposed by section
                    801 is paid with respect to any wage payment, then, under regulations
                    made under this title, proper adjustments, with respect both to the
                    tax and the amount to be deducted, shall be made, without interest, in
                    connection with subsequent wage payments to the same individual by the
                    same employer.

                    DEDUCTIBILITY FROM INCOME TAX

                    SEC. 803. For the purposes of the income tax imposed by Title I of the
                    Revenue Act of 1934 or by any Act of Congress in substitution
                    therefor, the tax imposed by section 801 shall not be allowed as a
                    deduction to the taxpayer in computing his net income for the year in
                    which such tax is deducted from his wages.

                    EXCISE TAX ON EMPLOYERS

                    SEC. 804. In addition to other taxes, every employer shall pay an
                    excise tax, with respect to having individuals in his employ, equal to
                    the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section 811)
                    paid by him after December 31, 1936, with respect to employment (as
                    defined in section 811) after such date: (1) With respect to
                    employment during the calendar years 1937, 1938, and 1939, the rate
                    shall be 1 per centum. (2) With respect to employment during the
                    calendar years 1940, 1941, and 1942, the rate shall be 1 ´ per centum.
                    (3) With respect to employment during the calendar years 1943, 1944,
                    and 1945, the rate shall be 2 per centum. (4) With respect to
                    employment during the calendar years 1946, 1947, and 1948, the rate
                    shall be 2 ´ per centum. (5) With respect to employment after December
                    31, 1948, the rate shall be 3 per centum.

                    --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Gene Johnson <genejohn70@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > How is the W-2 sent to the IRS, You send it.
                    >
                    > I am one of those mean old employer's that, rather than go to jail
                    like Dick Simkanan did, I send in the "required" W-2 forms.
                    >
                    > (If you are not familiar with Dick Simkanan, he did not send in
                    withholding taxes for his employees and the judge had to lie to the
                    jury to get him convicted. A judge lying to the jury always works.)
                    >
                    > Copy A- goes to Social Security Administration
                    > Copy B- to be filed with employee's federal tax return
                    > Copy C- for employee's records
                    > Copy D- stayes with employer
                    > Copy 1- employer sends to state tax department with states yearly
                    tax form for employers
                    > Copy 2- is filed with employee's state tax return
                    >
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