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Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

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  • Terri
    well said.
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 24, 2008
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      well said.

      Do I Even Know? wrote:
      >
      > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is their
      > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand this is a
      > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about people you
      > have never met and do not understand the living situation and needs
      > of?
      >
      > PITY SPAMMER. Pity is not compassion.
      >
      > bahB
      >
      > --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:tibetanbuddhistgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "S.Ganesh"
      > <sganesh77@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > This is me....Baby Seal..
      > >
      >
      >
    • Maria Giovanna
      maeby U have a rage problem???.....your word dont say anything that justify killing with cruelty.....anyway....I belive U dont know any better....... M.G. ...
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 27, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        maeby U have a "rage"problem???.....your word dont say anything that justify killing with cruelty.....anyway....I belive U dont know any better.......
        M.G.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:48 AM
        Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

        SO, they should just starve to death in the winter and have nothing
        else all year? Total poverty and severe suffering? Do you GET that
        those people thank the seals and reveir the gift they are given?

        I always get jumped on for siding with the people.

        Now, think abut the old Indian/Native American story about how the
        antellope pray the human will hunt and eat them.

        If you do not really know the situation you should just be pouring
        compassion on yourself.

        I have compassion for smarmy animal pity-party people. But I still
        resent being spammed with their sorry (yes, they want us to feel
        sorry) pictures of things out of context with no cultural
        background.

        Yes, everybodyu should be a vegan and never have a problem with
        anyuthing. HA! GET REAL.

        Come deal with my invasive ground squirrels in a compassionate
        way. Urban wimps. I stopped being a vegetarian because the
        vegetables were mad at me for not respecting them as much as the
        animals. So now I eat meat, and kill animals too. NOT a karmic
        problem. We can't all be monks.

        Maybe you have never considered what the consequense of NOT
        killing is. Life exists because of death.

        bahB

        --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "S.Ganesh"
        <behappy.metta@ ...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > People in this act deserves more compassion , because they dont
        know the
        > consequence of killing .
        >
        > Best Wishes & Metta
        >
        > Ganesh
        >
        >
        > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
        > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
        their
        > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
        this is a
        > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
        people you
        > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
        needs
        > > of?
        > >
        > > PITY SPAMMER. Pity is not compassion.
        > >
        > > bahB
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "S.Ganesh"
        > > sganesh77@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > This is me....Baby Seal..
        > > >
        > >
        >

      • Maria Giovanna
        mayby U can give a look here and get some good point....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U57snkWouV4 ... From: Do I Even Know? To:
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 27, 2008
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          mayby U can give a look here and get some good point.......
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 9:48 AM
          Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

          SO, they should just starve to death in the winter and have nothing
          else all year? Total poverty and severe suffering? Do you GET that
          those people thank the seals and reveir the gift they are given?

          I always get jumped on for siding with the people.

          Now, think abut the old Indian/Native American story about how the
          antellope pray the human will hunt and eat them.

          If you do not really know the situation you should just be pouring
          compassion on yourself.

          I have compassion for smarmy animal pity-party people. But I still
          resent being spammed with their sorry (yes, they want us to feel
          sorry) pictures of things out of context with no cultural
          background.

          Yes, everybodyu should be a vegan and never have a problem with
          anyuthing. HA! GET REAL.

          Come deal with my invasive ground squirrels in a compassionate
          way. Urban wimps. I stopped being a vegetarian because the
          vegetables were mad at me for not respecting them as much as the
          animals. So now I eat meat, and kill animals too. NOT a karmic
          problem. We can't all be monks.

          Maybe you have never considered what the consequense of NOT
          killing is. Life exists because of death.

          bahB

          --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "S.Ganesh"
          <behappy.metta@ ...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > People in this act deserves more compassion , because they dont
          know the
          > consequence of killing .
          >
          > Best Wishes & Metta
          >
          > Ganesh
          >
          >
          > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
          > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
          their
          > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
          this is a
          > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
          people you
          > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
          needs
          > > of?
          > >
          > > PITY SPAMMER. Pity is not compassion.
          > >
          > > bahB
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "S.Ganesh"
          > > sganesh77@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > This is me....Baby Seal..
          > > >
          > >
          >

        • jmax5421
          Please consider that just because some tradition is a cultural way of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human sacrifice are
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 27, 2008
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            Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
            of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
            sacrifice are cultural ways of life.







            > >
            > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Do I Even Know?"
            > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
            > their
            > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
            > this is a
            > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
            > people you
            > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
            > needs
            > > > of?
            > > >
            >
          • Steven Levey
            Good morning,       Actually, I m glad that you both responded, as I think it s a good thing to have some occassional interaction on this site. There is
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 30, 2008
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              Good morning,

                    Actually, I'm glad that you both responded, as I think it's a good thing to have some occassional interaction on this site. There is no better place for such discussions on the web, and your answers go to support this.

               

              Steve 

                   



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: John Pellecchia <pellejf@...>
              To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:50:15 AM
              Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

              Well stated, Dorje Khandro. I've been following the discussion without posting as did you for much the same reasons. Whenever I come across this discussion I think of the following quote from the Buddhist monk the Venerable Shravasti Dhammika. He is not of any of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions but I believe it is of value to the topic.

              "If there was a person who was a very strict vegetarian but who was selfish, dishonest and mean, and another person who was not vegetarian but who was thoughtful to others, honest, generous and kind, which of the two people would be a better Buddhist?... .One who eats meat can have a pure heart just as one who does not eat meat can have an impure heart. In the Buddha's teachings, the important thing is the quality of your heart, not the contents of your diet. Many people take great care never to eat meat, but they may not be too concerned about being selfish, dishonest, cruel or jealous. They change their diet which is easy to do while neglecting to change their hearts, which is difficult to do. So whether you are a vegetarian or not, remember that the purification of the mind is the most important thing in Buddhism."
              (from "Good Question, Good Answer" by Venerable Shravasti Dhammika, 4th ed.)

               May all be at peace.

              John



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: dorje.khandro <dorje.khandro@ yahoo.com>
              To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:11:25 PM
              Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

              Whenever I run across a discussion among Dharma practitioners regarding whether or not it is ok (usually in the case of some "other" person) to eat meat, I can not help but think the same thing over and over again, which is that there is nothing one can put into one's mouth that carries anywhere near as much karmic force as what comes out of it.

              Maybe there is truth to this view.  Maybe not, but it makes sense to me.

              This does not mean that I don't think it's a legitimate discussion topic.

              I just find it rather redundant and rather beside more important focus.

              I suppose that's what I think most about the topic...discuss and refocus.

              I normally do not even comment on this topic, but I thought this time I would...for some reason...not sure why. :)

              Shine on!

              Karma Dorje Khandro

              "May all beings have happiness and the cause of happiness."
               


              -



            • Do I Even Know?
              That s a wonderful quote. Points out why I generally disagree with people who push the idea of animal rights so fercely. They get this idea of aniamls being
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 1 12:09 AM
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                That's a wonderful quote.

                Points out why I generally disagree with people who push the idea of
                animal rights so fercely. They get this idea of aniamls being so
                special and disregard the people involved. Like, somehow its fine
                to hate animal killers for some reason.

                bahb


                --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, John Pellecchia
                <pellejf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well stated, Dorje Khandro. I've been following the discussion
                without posting as did you for much the same reasons. Whenever I
                come across this discussion I think of the following quote from the
                Buddhist monk the Venerable Shravasti Dhammika. He is not of any of
                the Tibetan Buddhist traditions but I believe it is of value to the
                topic.
                >
                > "If there was a person who was a very strict vegetarian but who
                was selfish, dishonest and mean, and another person who was not
                vegetarian but who was thoughtful to others, honest, generous and
                kind, which of the two people would be a better Buddhist?....One who
                eats meat can have a pure heart just as one who does not eat meat
                can have an impure heart. In the Buddha's teachings, the important
                thing is the quality of your heart, not the contents of your diet.
                Many people take great care never to eat meat, but they may not be
                too concerned about being selfish, dishonest, cruel or jealous. They
                change their diet which is easy to do while neglecting to change
                their hearts, which is difficult to do. So whether you are a
                vegetarian or not, remember that the purification of the mind is the
                most important thing in Buddhism."
                > (from "Good Question, Good Answer" by Venerable Shravasti
                Dhammika, 4th ed.)
                >
                >
                > May all be at peace.
                >
                > John
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: dorje.khandro <dorje.khandro@...>
                > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:11:25 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For
                Us ?
                >
                >
                > Whenever I run across a discussion among Dharma practitioners
                regarding whether or not it is ok (usually in the case of
                some "other" person) to eat meat, I can not help but think the same
                thing over and over again, which is that there is nothing one can
                put into one's mouth that carries anywhere near as much karmic force
                as what comes out of it.
                > Maybe there is truth to this view. Maybe not, but it makes sense
                to me.
                > This does not mean that I don't think it's a legitimate discussion
                topic.
                > I just find it rather redundant and rather beside more important
                focus.
                > I suppose that's what I think most about the topic...discuss and
                refocus.
                > I normally do not even comment on this topic, but I thought this
                time I would...for some reason...not sure why. :)
                > Shine on!
                > Karma Dorje Khandro
                >
                >
                > "May all beings have happiness and the cause of happiness."
                >
                >
                > -
                >
              • tom talylor
                That s a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It s absolutely unnecessary,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 1 11:11 PM
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                  That's a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It's absolutely unnecessary, it kills a whale, and it makes animal rights groups mad (lol). I'm alway confronted with the idea of, What would happen if I lived in a region where humans are completely dependent on meat? It's a difficult question to answer, especially when viewing it from the Bodhichitta 
                  perspective, that of trying to benefit every being. Keeping in mind Just this life,would it be better to use the utilitarian approach, where one kills a couple animals to stay alive and 
                  physically help many more animals and humans rather than simply dying out?

                  Tough questions, but woth examining..

                  --- On Fri, 6/27/08, jmax5421 <jmax5421@...> wrote:
                  From: jmax5421 <jmax5421@...>
                  Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                  To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:26 AM

                  Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
                  of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
                  sacrifice are cultural ways of life.

                  > >
                  > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
                  > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
                  > their
                  > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
                  > this is a
                  > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
                  > people you
                  > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
                  > needs
                  > > > of?
                  > > >
                  >


                • Federica Mastropaolo
                  Being a buddhist practicioners allow you to feel compassion even for the animal you eat, that is the tsok meaning, the most crucial points in this world is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 2 12:46 AM
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                    Being a buddhist practicioners allow you to feel compassion even for the

                    animal you eat, that is the tsok meaning,

                    the most crucial points in this world is that other religions despite they have as a first comandament

                    NOT KILLING, they kill and they are not aware of the sufference or the happiness

                    they give to the animal they eat.

                     

                    ciao

                    Federica


                     
                     


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: tom talylor <jedimasterham@...>
                    To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:11:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?


                    That's a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It's absolutely unnecessary, it kills a whale, and it makes animal rights groups mad (lol). I'm alway confronted with the idea of, What would happen if I lived in a region where humans are completely dependent on meat? It's a difficult  question to  answer, especiall y when viewing  it from the  Bodhichitta 
                    perspective,  that of trying  to benefit  every being.  Keeping in mind Just this life,would it be better to use the utilitarian approach , where one  kills a couple  animals to  stay alive  and 
                    physically help  many more animals  and humans rather than simply dying out?

                    Tough questions, but woth examining..

                    --- On Fri, 6/27/08, jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    From: jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com>
                    Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                    To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:26 AM

                    Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
                    of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
                    sacrifice are cultural ways of life.

                    > >
                    > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
                    > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
                    > their
                    > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
                    > this is a
                    > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
                    > people you
                    > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
                    > needs
                    > > > of?
                    > > >
                    >



                  • Steven Levey
                          This may a bit windy, but it s what I have gotten from all of this:       I think that this is a well taken point regarding the commandment
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 2 6:09 AM
                    • 0 Attachment

                            This may a bit windy, but it's what I have gotten from all of this:

                            I think that this is a well taken point regarding the commandment" Thou shalt not kill". I think the commandment is based in a truth, but surly the average Westerner and many others, while espousing the commandment in some form, do it's opposite on a daily basis, and do not know the suffering caused. It's also possible, as was previously said in a quotation, that those who practice ahimsa materially, still "kill" in the mind, any others who do not think like them. From this point of view it is obvious that The Middle Way is a difficult Path to attain in the world, but, it is all there is for us do. It is what we are all trying to do, and which our Buddha Mind and it's reflex of Mindfullness, are just a fraction behind us in our thoughts, words and deeds. Still, I am convinced that practice and discipline will win out in time and the thought and will, will eventually synchronise with the deed. That and a good sense of ironic humor seems requisit to take these issues seriously but not overly so. To me, the Buddha is having a good laugh, for it is evident from that persepective that no one, animal or otherwise, is ever killed in any permenant sense, but tempoarily-materially rearrainged for a time, and then they are back. So, we worry and feel guilty within our ignorance, sad, foolish, blame, etc. This will never justify taking another's body away, but allows for persepective and compassion, which sees and acts rightly in all situations. It being not pity, not hilarity, but knowing The Middle Way. 

                             I think that Gandhi's situation shows this where he realized that non-violent action (satyagraha) was provoking violence in those not aware. He then took responsibility for the sitation, but persevered through this oddity of human psychology and won. Well, for a time, as the very folks who had reacted so perversly left the country-The British, and the Indian people then lapsed into violence amongst themselves. This must be a mark of our times, where even the Dharma (for there is no other truth, although under different names) in the form of ahimsa and satyagrha cannot be trusted to set things right.

                       

                      Steve



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Federica Mastropaolo <fedemastro@...>
                      To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:46:43 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

                      Being a buddhist practicioners allow you to feel compassion even for the

                      animal you eat, that is the tsok meaning,

                      the most crucial points in this world is that other religions despite they have as a first comandament

                      NOT KILLING, they kill and they are not aware of the sufference or the happiness

                      they give to the animal they eat.

                       

                      ciao

                      Federica


                       
                       


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: tom talylor <jedimasterham@ yahoo.com>
                      To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:11:48 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?


                      That's a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It's absolutely unnecessary, it kills a whale, and it makes animal rights groups mad (lol). I'm alway confronted with the idea of, What would happen if I lived in a region where humans are completely dependent on meat? It's a difficult  question to  answer, especiall y when viewing  it from the  Bodhichitta 
                      perspective,  that of trying  to benefit  every being.  Keeping in mind Just this life,would it be better to use the utilitarian approach , where one  kills a couple  animals to  stay alive  and 
                      physically help  many more animals  and humans rather than simply dying out?

                      Tough questions, but woth examining..

                      --- On Fri, 6/27/08, jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      From: jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com>
                      Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                      To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:26 AM

                      Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
                      of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
                      sacrifice are cultural ways of life.

                      > >
                      > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
                      > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
                      > their
                      > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
                      > this is a
                      > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
                      > people you
                      > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
                      > needs
                      > > > of?
                      > > >
                      >




                    • tom talylor
                      I m confused.. I was under the assumption that the philosophy of Satyagraha has worked. 
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 2 10:12 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'm confused.. I was under the assumption that the philosophy of Satyagraha has worked. 
                        From what I understand, it's benefitted both India as a country, the African American Civil Rights
                        movement in the US, and current peace organizations like Greenpeace. I don't think that Gandi
                        provoked violence though, since there was nothing physically threatening to attack. It's more like the British acted out of frustration.

                        As for "thou shalt not kill," it's a good message, but perhaps the problem with it is that it 
                        doesn't pertain in detail why one must not kill. Instead, it somewhat asks the person to just
                        accept it, which doesn't seem practical.. Now that we're on the topic of killing, I do remember part of one of Buddha's teachings where the Buddha said something like "It's good to kill your parents." I always thought this to mean a psychological transformation, meaning that you kill
                        the set image of what your parents are, or your attachment to them, and so on..

                        --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
                        From: Steven Levey <sallev1@...>
                        Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                        To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 6:09 AM

                              This may a bit windy, but it's what I have gotten from all of this:

                              I think that this is a well taken point regarding the commandment" Thou shalt not kill". I think the commandment is based in a truth, but surly the average Westerner and many others, while espousing the commandment in some form, do it's opposite on a daily basis, and do not know the suffering caused. It's also possible, as was previously said in a quotation, that those who practice ahimsa materially, still "kill" in the mind, any others who do not think like them. From this point of view it is obvious that The Middle Way is a difficult Path to attain in the world, but, it is all there is for us do. It is what we are all trying to do, and which our Buddha Mind and it's reflex of Mindfullness, are just a fraction behind us in our thoughts, words and deeds. Still, I am convinced that practice and discipline will win out in time and the thought and will, will eventually synchronise with the deed. That and a good sense of ironic humor seems requisit to take these issues seriously but not overly so. To me, the Buddha is having a good laugh, for it is evident from that persepective that no one, animal or otherwise, is ever killed in any permenant sense, but tempoarily-material ly rearrainged for a time, and then they are back. So, we worry and feel guilty within our ignorance, sad, foolish, blame, etc. This will never justify taking another's body away, but allows for persepective and compassion, which sees and acts rightly in all situations. It being not pity, not hilarity, but knowing The Middle Way. 

                               I think that Gandhi's situation shows this where he realized that non-violent action (satyagraha) was provoking violence in those not aware. He then took responsibility for the sitation, but persevered through this oddity of human psychology and won. Well, for a time, as the very folks who had reacted so perversly left the country-The British, and the Indian people then lapsed into violence amongst themselves. This must be a mark of our times, where even the Dharma (for there is no other truth, although under different names) in the form of ahimsa and satyagrha cannot be trusted to set things right.

                         

                        Steve



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Federica Mastropaolo <fedemastro@yahoo. com>
                        To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:46:43 AM
                        Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

                        Being a buddhist practicioners allow you to feel compassion even for the

                        animal you eat, that is the tsok meaning,

                        the most crucial points in this world is that other religions despite they have as a first comandament

                        NOT KILLING, they kill and they are not aware of the sufference or the happiness

                        they give to the animal they eat.

                         

                        ciao

                        Federica


                         
                         


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: tom talylor <jedimasterham@ yahoo.com>
                        To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:11:48 AM
                        Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?


                        That's a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It's absolutely unnecessary, it kills a whale, and it makes animal rights groups mad (lol). I'm alway confronted with the idea of, What would happen if I lived in a region where humans are completely dependent on meat? It's a difficult  question to  answer, especiall y when viewing  it from the  Bodhichitta 
                        perspective,  that of trying  to benefit  every being.  Keeping in mind Just this life,would it be better to use the utilitarian approach , where one  kills a couple  animals to  stay alive  and 
                        physically help  many more animals  and humans rather than simply dying out?

                        Tough questions, but woth examining..

                        --- On Fri, 6/27/08, jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        From: jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com>
                        Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                        To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:26 AM

                        Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
                        of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
                        sacrifice are cultural ways of life.

                        > >
                        > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
                        > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
                        > their
                        > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
                        > this is a
                        > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
                        > people you
                        > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
                        > needs
                        > > > of?
                        > > >
                        >





                      • John Pellecchia
                        Tom, as I understand, whether the taking of a life is skillful or unskillful depends a lot upon intention as well as whether or not one has taken the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 2 7:27 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Tom, as I understand, whether the taking of a life is skillful or unskillful depends a lot upon intention as well as whether or not one has taken the Bodhisattva Vows.

                          In the "Forty-six Ways in Which a Bodhisattva Fails" one of the "Contradictions to the Paramita of Discipline: Contradictions Mainly to Benefitting Others" states "Not performing evil actions even though it is permitted when one has compassion and there is a need." (translated by the Nalanda Translation Committee from Jamgon Kongtrul's "Treasury of Knowledge" quoted in Chogyam Trungpa's "Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving-Kindness"). So we can determine that in extreme cases, the taking of a life -- even the life of a human -- is justifiable as long as one does not take joy in the act. Intent become paramount.

                          To quote the Berzin Archives:

                          "(4) Not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it

                          "Occasionally, certain extreme situations arise in which the welfare of others is seriously jeopardized and there is no alternative left to prevent a tragedy other than committing one of the seven destructive physical or verbal actions. These seven are taking a life, taking what has not been given to us, indulging in inappropriate sexual behavior, lying, speaking divisively, using harsh and cruel language, or chattering meaninglessly. If we commit such an action without any disturbing emotion at the time, such as anger, desire, or naivety about cause and effect, but are motivated only by the wish to prevent others' suffering - being totally willing to accept on ourselves whatever negative consequences may come, even hellish pain - we do not damage our far-reaching ethical self-discipline. In fact, we build up a tremendous amount of positive force that speeds us on our spiritual paths.

                          "Refusing to commit these destructive actions when necessity demands is at fault, however, only if we have taken and keep purely bodhisattva vows. Our reticence to exchange our happiness for the welfare of others hampers our perfection of the ethical self-discipline to help others always. There is no fault if we have only superficial compassion and do not keep bodhisattva vows or train in the conduct outlined by them. We realize that since our compassion is weak and unstable, the resulting suffering we would experience from our destructive actions might easily cause us to begrudge bodhisattva conduct. We might even give up the path of working to help others. Like the injunction that bodhisattvas on lower stages of development only damage themselves and their abilities to help others if they attempt practices of bodhisattvas on higher stages - such as feeding their flesh to a hungry tigress - it is better for us to remain cautious and hold back.

                          "Since there may be confusion about what circumstances call for such bodhisattva action, let us look at examples taken from the commentary literature. Please keep in mind that these are last resort actions when all other means fail to alleviate or prevent others' suffering. As a budding bodhisattva, we are willing to take the life of someone about to commit a mass murder...."
                          ( http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/practice_material/vows/bodhisattva/secondary_bodhisattva_pledges.html )

                          The negative karmic consequences remain but are lessened due to the positive intent and achieving the the "greater good" -- the taking of one life in order to preserve the lives of others.

                          In regard to your reference to the quotation "It's good to kill your parents." there may be a misunderstanding as to the meaning behind the words. Undoubtedly and unfortunately whenever teachings are given either verbally or in writing there is always the potential that aspects may be taken out of context. The Buddhist sutras comprise thousands of volumes so it is only natural that this will occur. In his text "Volume 3: The Way of the Bodhisattva" of his series "Steps on the Path to Enlightenment -- A commentary on Tsongkhapa's Lamrim Chenmo" the Tibetan master Geshe Lhundub Sopa explains it in this manner:

                          "There are sutra passages that can be quoted literally by both sides. Some sutras say that without practicing all the activities of the method side you cannot achieve buddhahood. Other sutras teach the disadvantages of conceptual thought. In some sutras wisdom is emphasized and in others the emphasis is on method. Sometimes people think that because a sutra says something we should accept it. However, we should understand that sutras can have a direct meaning and an indirect meaning. They may say something explicitly for a certain purpose but their real meaning is something else. Obvious examples are passages such as, 'Your father and mother should be killed.' or 'If you kill the king and all his subjects you will become pure.'

                          "These passages should certainly not be taken literally! Father and mother are to be understood as karma and the mental afflictions; the king and all his subjects indicates ignorance and the mental afflictions. The Buddha taught sutras with varying emphasis because each was meant for a specific person, engaged in a specific practice, at a certain time, on a specific stage of the path. The great masters with deep understanding of the teachings know that following the literal meaning of some passages is harmful, so they examine the sutras for their implicit meaning."

                          This is why a sutra without a commentary is said to be incomplete. I hope this is of some help.

                          May all be at peace.

                          John


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          tom talylor <jedimasterham@...> wrote in part


                          As for "thou shalt  not kill,"  it's a good  message, but  perhaps the  problem with  it is that it doesn't pertain  in detail why  one must not  kill. Instead,  it somewhat  asks the person  to just accept it, which doesn't seem practical.. Now that we're on the topic of killing, I do remember part of one of Buddha's teachings where the Buddha said something like "It's good to kill your parents." I always thought  this to mean  a psychological  transformation,  meaning that  you kill
                          the set image of what your parents are, or your attachment to them, and so on..



                        • Steven Levey
                          Tom,       Satyagraha is a fool proof method and idealogy, but, in application it was proven to be a difficult and unpredicatable affair when applied to
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 3 5:44 AM
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Tom,

                                  Satyagraha is a fool proof method and idealogy, but, in application it was proven to be a difficult and unpredicatable affair when applied to the British. This is quite clear in the history of Hind Sawaraj in India, especially through reading Gandhi's letters.But it is common sense to know that no genuinely humane ideal has ever been 100% perfect in application. And this helds true for the early days in Selma Alabama and throughout the South during Martin Luthor King's campaigns. It is nievete' to believe that Satyagraha must have worked, simply on the basis of it being a profoundly good idea. After all, how well do we do applying the Dharma to ourselves?

                             

                            Steve



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: tom talylor <jedimasterham@...>
                            To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 1:12:18 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

                            I'm confused.. I was under the assumption that the philosophy  of Satyagraha  has worked. 
                            From what I understand , it's benefitted  both India  as a country,  the African  American Civil  Rights
                            movement in the US, and current peace organizations like Greenpeace. I  don't think that Gandi
                            provoked violence though,  since there  was nothing  physically  threatening  to attack. It's more like the British acted out of frustration.

                            As for "thou shalt  not kill,"  it's a good  message, but  perhaps the  problem with  it is that it 
                            doesn't pertain  in detail why  one must not  kill. Instead,  it somewhat  asks the person  to just
                            accept it, which doesn't seem practical.. Now that we're on the topic of killing, I do remember part of one of Buddha's teachings where the Buddha said something like "It's good to kill your parents." I always thought  this to mean  a psychological  transformation,  meaning that  you kill
                            the set image of what your parents are, or your attachment to them, and so on..

                            --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Steven Levey <sallev1@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            From: Steven Levey <sallev1@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                            To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 6:09 AM

                                  This may a bit windy, but it's what I have gotten from all of this:

                                  I think that this is a well taken point regarding the commandment" Thou shalt not kill". I think the commandment is based in a truth, but surly the average Westerner and many others, while espousing the commandment in some form, do it's opposite on a daily basis, and do not know the suffering caused. It's also possible, as was previously said in a quotation, that those who practice ahimsa materially, still "kill" in the mind, any others who do not think like them. From this point of view it is obvious that The Middle Way is a difficult Path to attain in the world, but, it is all there is for us do. It is what we are all trying to do, and which our Buddha Mind and it's reflex of Mindfullness, are just a fraction behind us in our thoughts, words and deeds. Still, I am convinced that practice and discipline will win out in time and the thought and will, will eventually synchronise with the deed. That and a good sense of ironic humor seems requisit to take these issues seriously but not overly so. To me, the Buddha is having a good laugh, for it is evident from that persepective  that no one, animal or otherwise, is ever killed in any permenant sense, but tempoarily-material ly rearrainged for a time, and then they are back. So, we worry and feel guilty within our ignorance, sad, foolish, blame, etc. This will never justify taking another's body away, but allows for persepective and compassion, which sees and acts rightly in all situations. It being not pity, not hilarity, but knowing The Middle Way. 

                                   I think that Gandhi's situation shows this where he realized that non-violent action (satyagraha) was provoking violence in those not aware. He then took responsibility for the sitation, but persevered through this oddity of human psychology and won. Well, for a time, as the very folks who had reacted so perversly left the country-The British, and the Indian people then lapsed into violence amongst themselves. This must be a mark of our times, where even the Dharma (for there is no other truth, although under different names) in the form of ahimsa and satyagrha cannot be trusted to set things right.

                             

                            Steve



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Federica Mastropaolo <fedemastro@yahoo. com>
                            To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:46:43 AM
                            Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?

                            Being a buddhist practicioners allow you to feel compassion even for the

                            animal you eat, that is the tsok meaning,

                            the most crucial points in this world is that other religions despite they have as a first comandament

                            NOT KILLING, they kill and they are not aware of the sufference or the happiness

                            they give to the animal they eat.

                             

                            ciao

                            Federica


                             
                             


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: tom talylor <jedimasterham@ yahoo.com>
                            To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:11:48 AM
                            Subject: Re: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?


                            That's a good point; culture does not justify a way of living. Reminds me of whale hunting done by certain native american groups. It's absolutely unnecessary, it kills a whale, and it makes animal rights groups mad (lol). I'm alway confronted with the idea of, What would happen if I lived in a region where humans are completely dependent on meat? It's a difficult  question to  answer, especiall y when viewing  it from the  Bodhichitta 
                            perspective,  that of trying  to benefit  every being.  Keeping in mind Just this life,would it be better to use the utilitarian approach , where one  kills a couple  animals to  stay alive  and 
                            physically help  many more animals  and humans rather than simply dying out?

                            Tough questions, but woth examining..

                            --- On Fri, 6/27/08, jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            From: jmax5421 <jmax5421@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: [TBG] Re: Compassion Please - Do You Care For Us ?
                            To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 8:26 AM

                            Please consider that just because some tradition is a "cultural" way
                            of life, that does not justify it. Slavery, rape, child-rape, human
                            sacrifice are cultural ways of life.

                            > >
                            > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "Do I Even Know?"
                            > > <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Do YOU have compassion for the people who live - yes the hunt is
                            > their
                            > > > livelyhood - by harvesting meat and fur?? Do you understand
                            > this is a
                            > > > cultural way of life in the cold north? Do YOU care about
                            > people you
                            > > > have never met and do not understand the living situation and
                            > needs
                            > > > of?
                            > > >
                            >






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