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Re: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

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  • Steven Levey
    Mike, The key to this issue: On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 25, 2007
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      Mike,
           The key to this issue:

      "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
      diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
      relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
       
      lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves, there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the individual does their work. 
          I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in the Four Noble Truths.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message ----
      From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
      To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
      Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

      Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and
      kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and
      vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take as
      my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
      words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
      silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not do
      harm.

      On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
      diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
      relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
      relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
      the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
      this and it's implications!

      Metta,

      Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his point...)

      --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
      <sallev1@... > wrote:

      >
      > Dear Mike,
      > Regarding this statement of yours:
      > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
      online
      > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
      who,
      > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
      > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
      that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
      serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
      (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
      without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
      really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
      which others may not.
      > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
      question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
      individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no
      way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner),
      if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them
      through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
      responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
      causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not
      be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
      can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
      admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self
      devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
      the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
      resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us
      incarnate in a body with
      > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
      is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
      linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
      knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
      problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
      > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
      slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
      implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey
      mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through
      attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
      To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
      to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
      their "troubled/disturbed " state.
      > None of the above is merely
      imperical. It is an understanding
      arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as
      I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
      a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being
      do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as
      Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
      to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare
      to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
      combination seems very sad.
      >
      > Steve
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
      > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
      >
      Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
      >
      > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
      > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
      same:
      >
      > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
      > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
      > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
      seemed
      > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
      >
      > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy
      mind
      > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health
      are
      > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
      > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
      > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
      > that the compassionate action, so far as
      possible, is to welcome
      these
      > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
      themselves
      > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.
      >
      > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
      > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
      > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
      > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages
      I,
      > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
      > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
      who,
      > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
      anyone
      > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
      stigma
      > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
      Wellness
      > Group:
      >
      >
      href="http://groups./" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
      >
      > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
      > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
      >
      > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get
      on
      > with their practice!
      >
      > With metta,
      >
      > Mike
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      ____________ __
      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
      >




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    • imperialdlptutoring
      Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the penny to drop! Thanks! Mike ... state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 26, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the
        penny to drop!

        Thanks!

        Mike

        --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
        <sallev1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mike,
        > The key to this issue:
        >
        > "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
        > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
        > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
        >
        > lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking
        state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in
        which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally
        and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you
        should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has
        subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a
        theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves,
        there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all
        theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist
        or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the
        individual does their work.
        > I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings
        from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must
        also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma
        for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be
        saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in
        the Four Noble Truths.
        >
        > Steve
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
        > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
        > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
        >
        > Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness
        and
        > kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed
        and
        > vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take
        as
        > my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
        > words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
        > silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not
        do
        > harm.
        >
        > On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
        > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
        > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
        > relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
        > the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
        > this and it's implications!
        >
        > Metta,
        >
        > Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his
        point...)
        >
        > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
        > <sallev1@ > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Mike,
        > > Regarding this statement of yours:
        > > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
        > online
        > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
        individuals
        > who,
        > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
        > > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
        > that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
        > serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
        > (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
        > without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
        > really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
        > which others may not.
        > > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
        > question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
        > individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be
        no
        > way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a
        practioner),
        > if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon
        them
        > through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
        > responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
        > causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can
        not
        > be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
        > can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
        > admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only
        through "self
        > devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
        > the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
        > resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had
        us
        > incarnate in a body with
        > > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
        > is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
        > linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
        > knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
        > problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
        > > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
        > slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
        > implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the
        Monkey
        > mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is,
        through
        > attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
        > To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
        > to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
        > their "troubled/disturbed " state.
        > > None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding
        > arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues,
        as
        > I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
        > a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull"
        being
        > do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however,
        as
        > Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
        > to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further
        rare
        > to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
        > combination seems very sad.
        > >
        > > Steve
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message ----
        > > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
        > > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
        > > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more
        Compassion ?:
        > >
        > > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will
        go
        > > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
        > same:
        > >
        > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
        > > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
        > > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
        > seemed
        > > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
        > >
        > > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a
        healthy
        > mind
        > > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental
        health
        > are
        > > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people
        suffering
        > > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
        > > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view
        is
        > > that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome
        > these
        > > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
        > themselves
        > > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn
        them.
        > >
        > > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
        > > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since
        people
        > > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot
        know
        > > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online
        messages
        > I,
        > > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
        online
        > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
        individuals
        > who,
        > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
        > anyone
        > > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
        > stigma
        > > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
        > Wellness
        > > Group:
        > >
        > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
        > >
        > > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
        > > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
        > >
        > > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to
        get
        > on
        > > with their practice!
        > >
        > > With metta,
        > >
        > > Mike
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        > ____________ __
        > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ______________
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        >
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