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Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

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  • dorjeshonnu
    ... if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 27, 2007
      Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sir,
      > I cannot thank you enough for these links to the study and meditation
      > upon Bodhicitta. One needs as many useful perspectives on this as
      > possible, and I found that these first two links are profoundly useful
      > in those perspective. The problem is that studying the mind is very
      > much like water studying itself. Therefore, one who would gain wisdom
      > on Bodhicitta, a particular view is required.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Thubten Pema Tenzin <thubtenpematenzin@...>
      > Thubten Pema Tenzin
      > buddhist monk contemplative

      if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.
    • Steven Levey
      Sorry, what is your point? Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 28, 2007
        Sorry, what is your point?
        Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of mind are you in to overlook the value of  links, which offer so much to the student regarding bodhicita, so that you might be accusitory. Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
        To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:53:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

        Steven Levey <sallev1@... > wrote:

        >
        > Sir,
        > I cannot thank you enough for these links to the study and meditation
        > upon Bodhicitta. One needs as many useful perspectives on this as
        > possible, and I found that these first two links are profoundly useful
        > in those perspective. The problem is that studying the mind is very
        > much like water studying itself. Therefore, one who would gain wisdom
        > on Bodhicitta, a particular view is required.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Thubten Pema Tenzin <thubtenpematenzin@ ...>
        > Thubten Pema Tenzin
        > buddhist monk contemplative

        if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.




        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
      • dorjeshonnu
        ... Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are each capable of
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
          Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is
          > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of
          > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so much
          > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be accusatory.
          > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

          Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
          Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
          each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
          dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
          in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
          the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
          ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
          content is positive, the karma involved is negative.

          The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct any
          misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes. Particularly
          before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
          misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question Steven.
        • Steven Levey
          Well, thanks for the explaination. But, perhaps more importantly, thank you for your motive. I guess I wasn t prepared to have to discriminate in such a way.
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
            Well, thanks for the explaination. But, perhaps more importantly, thank you for your motive. I guess I wasn't prepared to have to discriminate in such a way. This was espceically so since the links themselves proved to be so useful. I don't consider myself particularly gullible, and I never considered the sender of the links for a moment, except with thanks. What a lovely mix of positive and negative, aye?
             
            Steve

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
            To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:19:35 AM
            Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

            Steven Levey <sallev1@... > wrote:

            >
            > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is
            > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of
            > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so much
            > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be accusatory.
            > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

            Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
            Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
            each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
            dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
            in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
            the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
            ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
            content is positive, the karma involved is negative.

            The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct any
            misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes. Particularly
            before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
            misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question Steven.




            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
          • R. Kenoyer
            I m not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and nobody is soliciting donations. ~~Rachael
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
              I'm not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and
              nobody is soliciting donations.

              ~~Rachael


              On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dorjeshonnu wrote:
              >
              > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
              > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
              > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
              > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
              > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
              > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
              > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
              > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
              >
            • Do I Even Know?
              The conserns about karma...aftr I look around googlin I find this drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person chasing around after
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 2, 2007
                The conserns about karma...aftr I look around googlin' I find this
                drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person
                chasing around after what they perceive as a wrong get slapped with
                karma?

                The proper way to deal with impostors, as was relater to me by my
                Lama, and which I have read in many books (Buddhist and Christian)
                is to just ignore them. Don't waste time spreading angry hateful
                words about people.

                I do not know either of these persona, nor do I care how they
                present themselves on the internet. The internet is a world of
                false fronts and hidden identities. I can't prove wgho anyone is,
                not even if I meet them in person. So why have a tissy about what
                someone chooses as a name?

                bahB


                --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "R. Kenoyer"
                <rubylou@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and
                > nobody is soliciting donations.
                >
                > ~~Rachael
                >
                >
                > On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dorjeshonnu wrote:
                > >
                > > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
                > > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We
                are
                > > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The
                value of
                > > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of
                Peter Ray
                > > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content
                with
                > > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not
                only an
                > > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while
                the
                > > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
                > >
                >
              • dorjeshonnu
                ... No tissy, no angry hateful words involved. But you try getting on your Lama s throne before a teaching. Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 3, 2007
                  "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The concerns about karma... after I look around googlin' I find this
                  > drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person
                  > chasing around after what they perceive as a wrong get slapped with
                  > karma?
                  >
                  > The proper way to deal with impostors, as was related to me by my
                  > Lama, and which I have read in many books (Buddhist and Christian)
                  > is to just ignore them. Don't waste time spreading angry hateful
                  > words about people.
                  >
                  > I do not know either of these persona, nor do I care how they
                  > present themselves on the internet. The internet is a world of
                  > false fronts and hidden identities. I can't prove who anyone is,
                  > not even if I meet them in person. So why have a tissy about what
                  > someone chooses as a name?

                  No tissy, no angry hateful words involved.
                  But you try getting on your Lama's throne before a teaching.
                  Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what happens.

                  You will be removed, one way or another, for your own good.
                • imperialdlptutoring
                  Isn t the real issue here kind and gentle speech and skillfullness (which I think are particularly important online since one can t see the facial expressions
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 4, 2007
                    Isn't the real issue here kind and gentle speech and skillfullness
                    (which I think are particularly important online since one can't see
                    the facial expressions of people reading one's messages) rather than
                    whether someone is or isn't a monk (but, nonetheless a sentient being
                    who's wellness we should wish for)? I (personally) believe the
                    original motivation for the posting with links was positive and am
                    not (personally) interested in whether the person posting the message
                    is a monk or not. Further, I find it ironic and more than a little
                    disheartening that a thread about compassion, in one of the more
                    compassionate parts of the internet, degenerates into an exchange
                    which strikes me as far from compassionate. So, for the benefit of
                    ALL subscribers of this list could I respectfully request/suggest
                    that members exercise a measure of restraint and skillfullness
                    (motivated by compassion, being mindful particularly of 'right
                    speech') before posting messages which might be misconstrued and
                    cause mental anguish in fellow subscribers!

                    With metta,

                    Mike

                    --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                    <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Steven Levey <sallev1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links,
                    or is
                    > > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what
                    state of
                    > > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so
                    much
                    > > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be
                    accusatory.
                    > > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?
                    >
                    > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
                    > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
                    > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value
                    of
                    > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter
                    Ray
                    > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
                    > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only
                    an
                    > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
                    > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
                    >
                    > The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct
                    any
                    > misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes.
                    Particularly
                    > before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
                    > misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question
                    Steven.
                    >
                  • Do I Even Know?
                    And no actual responce to my questions or staements. I m not putting on any robes. The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your qualification
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 4, 2007
                      And no actual responce to my questions or staements.

                      I'm not putting on any robes.

                      The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                      qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge and
                      ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions here. I
                      am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your accusations.
                      Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other Buddhist (except
                      scammers) make a point about anyones qualifications as you have.



                      --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                      <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > No tissy, no angry hateful words involved.
                      > But you try getting on your Lama's throne before a teaching.
                      > Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what happens.
                      >
                      > You will be removed, one way or another, for your own good.
                      >
                    • dorjeshonnu
                      ... Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices are fruitful. The
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 5, 2007
                        "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                        > qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge
                        > and ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions
                        > here. I am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your
                        > accusations. Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other Buddhist
                        > (except scammers) made a point about anyone's qualifications as you
                        > have.

                        Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my
                        wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices are
                        fruitful. The situation of my causes is greatly helped by the
                        Vajrasattva 100-syllable sadhana provided to me and others by the
                        Venerable Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche, as well as the other
                        wang/tri/lung empowerments and transmissions I've been fortunate
                        enough to receive from other teachers. I direct my daily actions
                        according to the advice and texts of credible sources of authority,
                        and own best judgment. While I do not live what some would call an
                        ideal life, I have confidence in the Three Jewels, my teachers, and
                        methods, and look forward to liberation, or the next life of benefit
                        to sentient beings.

                        There is no especial qualification involved in denouncing anyone,
                        other than that the situation be significant enough for action to be
                        taken, and that the person so denouncing be adequately informed enough
                        to make a credible assertion. In the case of a person falsely claiming
                        to be ordained sangha, the situation seems significant enough to me.

                        I am not privy to "all refuge and ordination records". In the case at
                        hand I am privy enough to the claims made by the individual, the
                        observed conduct of the individual, and his ongoing insinuations of
                        identity here. Amongst the various pictures he has taken from other
                        people's websites he includes a photo of documents, with refuge names,
                        that he claims are ordination records - these constitute nothing of
                        the sort. There have been various small inconsistencies in his
                        accounts about himself, some glaring problems with conduct, and in
                        fact vajra siblings of mine have investigated some of his claims
                        specifically.

                        For instance he has claimed to be a tulku recognized by Ngakpa Orgyen
                        Kusum Lingpa Rinpoche. An email was sent to the people here:

                        http://www.omura.com/k_lingpa/klingpa1.htm

                        and the response was this:

                        ...

                        "Hello,
                        I don't know who you are, or why you are concerned about this person.
                        I remember him having visited our center one time and as I remember
                        Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                        to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful. The last I knew
                        of him he was in Nepal, sending messages back for financial support.
                        There is no proof anywhere that Kusum Lingpa recognized him as a tulku.
                        Yours,
                        Yeshe Tarchin"

                        ...

                        Thus on the basis of small, greater, and direct statements from a
                        credible source as evidence, I have made my statements here, and am
                        satisfied with any causes which may in future ripen on the basis of
                        these actions.

                        I think it is uncommon to see this sort of thing because most people
                        in their right minds have no interest in representing themselves in
                        such a way. As you said, you will not be putting on the robes.

                        As for Peter Ray, whose name is actually, sorry, Donald Peter Ray Jr,
                        I am willing to believe that he has taken refuge and perhaps even
                        bodhisattva vows, and may in fact be deluded by the thought that these
                        have in some sense constituted full ordination. But this merely
                        compounds his difficulties if, having taken particular vows, he has
                        acted against them. In no sense do I believe him to be acting out of
                        pure malice, or that he is some kind of mara. It is simply that his
                        story does not hold up under inspection, and thus I believe he needs
                        to be protected from his own actions.
                      • Do I Even Know?
                        Thank you for the information. I will now put it all out of my mind if I can, and try to stay focused on what I can do to continue my own practices. bahB ...
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 7, 2007
                          Thank you for the information. I will now put it all out of my mind
                          if I can, and try to stay focused on what I can do to continue my
                          own practices.

                          bahB


                          --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                          <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                          > > qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge
                          > > and ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions
                          > > here. I am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your
                          > > accusations. Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other
                          Buddhist
                          > > (except scammers) made a point about anyone's qualifications as
                          you
                          > > have.
                          >
                          > Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my
                          > wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices
                          are
                          > fruitful. The situation of my causes is greatly helped by the
                          > Vajrasattva 100-syllable sadhana provided to me and others by the
                          > Venerable Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche, as well as the other
                          > wang/tri/lung empowerments and transmissions I've been fortunate
                          > enough to receive from other teachers. I direct my daily actions
                          > according to the advice and texts of credible sources of authority,
                          > and own best judgment. While I do not live what some would call an
                          > ideal life, I have confidence in the Three Jewels, my teachers, and
                          > methods, and look forward to liberation, or the next life of
                          benefit
                          > to sentient beings.
                          >
                          > There is no especial qualification involved in denouncing anyone,
                          > other than that the situation be significant enough for action to
                          be
                          > taken, and that the person so denouncing be adequately informed
                          enough
                          > to make a credible assertion. In the case of a person falsely
                          claiming
                          > to be ordained sangha, the situation seems significant enough to
                          me.
                          >
                          > I am not privy to "all refuge and ordination records". In the case
                          at
                          > hand I am privy enough to the claims made by the individual, the
                          > observed conduct of the individual, and his ongoing insinuations of
                          > identity here. Amongst the various pictures he has taken from other
                          > people's websites he includes a photo of documents, with refuge
                          names,
                          > that he claims are ordination records - these constitute nothing of
                          > the sort. There have been various small inconsistencies in his
                          > accounts about himself, some glaring problems with conduct, and in
                          > fact vajra siblings of mine have investigated some of his claims
                          > specifically.
                          >
                          > For instance he has claimed to be a tulku recognized by Ngakpa
                          Orgyen
                          > Kusum Lingpa Rinpoche. An email was sent to the people here:
                          >
                          > http://www.omura.com/k_lingpa/klingpa1.htm
                          >
                          > and the response was this:
                          >
                          > ...
                          >
                          > "Hello,
                          > I don't know who you are, or why you are concerned about this
                          person.
                          > I remember him having visited our center one time and as I remember
                          > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                          seemed
                          > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful. The last I
                          knew
                          > of him he was in Nepal, sending messages back for financial
                          support.
                          > There is no proof anywhere that Kusum Lingpa recognized him as a
                          tulku.
                          > Yours,
                          > Yeshe Tarchin"
                          >
                          > ...
                          >
                          > Thus on the basis of small, greater, and direct statements from a
                          > credible source as evidence, I have made my statements here, and am
                          > satisfied with any causes which may in future ripen on the basis of
                          > these actions.
                          >
                          > I think it is uncommon to see this sort of thing because most
                          people
                          > in their right minds have no interest in representing themselves in
                          > such a way. As you said, you will not be putting on the robes.
                          >
                          > As for Peter Ray, whose name is actually, sorry, Donald Peter Ray
                          Jr,
                          > I am willing to believe that he has taken refuge and perhaps even
                          > bodhisattva vows, and may in fact be deluded by the thought that
                          these
                          > have in some sense constituted full ordination. But this merely
                          > compounds his difficulties if, having taken particular vows, he has
                          > acted against them. In no sense do I believe him to be acting out
                          of
                          > pure malice, or that he is some kind of mara. It is simply that his
                          > story does not hold up under inspection, and thus I believe he
                          needs
                          > to be protected from his own actions.
                          >
                        • imperialdlptutoring
                          Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go ... Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind (and, indeed,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 9, 2007
                            Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                            quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the same:

                            --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                            <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                            > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                            > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.

                            Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind
                            (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health are
                            widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                            mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                            control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                            that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome these
                            individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help themselves
                            (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.

                            I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                            subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                            suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                            what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages I,
                            personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                            when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                            through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If anyone
                            reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no stigma
                            in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist Wellness
                            Group:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhistWellnessGroup/

                            ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                            welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).

                            OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get on
                            with their practice!

                            With metta,

                            Mike
                          • Steven Levey
                            Dear Mike, Regarding this statement of yours: I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online when communicating with/about these
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 17, 2007
                              Dear Mike,
                                 Regarding this statement of yours:
                               "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                              when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                              through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                  I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can, (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues) without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of which others may not.
                                 Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner), if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us incarnate in a body with an imperfect mind/brain relationship-it is still our Karma!). It is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                 There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara. To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of their "troubled/disturbed" state.
                                 None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a combination seems very sad.
                               
                              Steve

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                              To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                              Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

                              Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                              quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the same:

                              --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                              <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:

                              > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                              > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.

                              Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind
                              (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health are
                              widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                              mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                              control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                              that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome these
                              individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help themselves
                              (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.

                              I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                              subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                              suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                              what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages I,
                              personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                              when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                              through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If anyone
                              reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no stigma
                              in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist Wellness
                              Group:

                              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/

                              ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                              welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).

                              OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get on
                              with their practice!

                              With metta,

                              Mike




                              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                            • imperialdlptutoring
                              Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and vulnerable people
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 19, 2007
                                Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and
                                kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and
                                vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take as
                                my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not do
                                harm.

                                On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                this and it's implications!

                                Metta,

                                Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his point...)

                                --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                                <sallev1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Mike,
                                > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                online
                                > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                who,
                                > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                which others may not.
                                > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no
                                way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner),
                                if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them
                                through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not
                                be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self
                                devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us
                                incarnate in a body with
                                > an imperfect mind/brain relationship-it is still our Karma!). It
                                is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey
                                mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through
                                attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                their "troubled/disturbed" state.
                                > None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding
                                arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as
                                I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being
                                do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as
                                Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare
                                to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                combination seems very sad.
                                >
                                > Steve
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                >
                                > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                                > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                same:
                                >
                                > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                seemed
                                > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                >
                                > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy
                                mind
                                > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health
                                are
                                > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                                > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                                > that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome
                                these
                                > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                themselves
                                > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.
                                >
                                > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                                > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                                > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages
                                I,
                                > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                who,
                                > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                anyone
                                > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                stigma
                                > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                Wellness
                                > Group:
                                >
                                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                >
                                > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                >
                                > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get
                                on
                                > with their practice!
                                >
                                > With metta,
                                >
                                > Mike
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ______________________________________________________________________
                                ______________
                                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                >
                              • Steven Levey
                                Mike, The key to this issue: On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 25, 2007
                                  Mike,
                                       The key to this issue:

                                  "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                  diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                  relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
                                   
                                  lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves, there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the individual does their work. 
                                      I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in the Four Noble Truths.
                                   
                                  Steve
                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                  To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
                                  Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

                                  Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and
                                  kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and
                                  vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take as
                                  my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                  words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                  silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not do
                                  harm.

                                  On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                  diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                  relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                  relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                  the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                  this and it's implications!

                                  Metta,

                                  Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his point...)

                                  --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
                                  <sallev1@... > wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Dear Mike,
                                  > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                  > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                  online
                                  > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                  who,
                                  > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                  > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                  that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                  serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                  (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                  without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                  really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                  which others may not.
                                  > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                  question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                  individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no
                                  way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner),
                                  if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them
                                  through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                  responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                  causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not
                                  be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                  can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                  admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self
                                  devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                  the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                  resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us
                                  incarnate in a body with
                                  > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
                                  is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                  linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                  knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                  problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                  > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                  slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                  implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey
                                  mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through
                                  attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                  To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                  to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                  their "troubled/disturbed " state.
                                  > None of the above is merely
                                  imperical. It is an understanding
                                  arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as
                                  I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                  a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being
                                  do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as
                                  Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                  to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare
                                  to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                  combination seems very sad.
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
                                  > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                  >
                                  Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                  >
                                  > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                                  > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                  same:
                                  >
                                  > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                  > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                  > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                  seemed
                                  > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                  >
                                  > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy
                                  mind
                                  > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health
                                  are
                                  > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                                  > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                  > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                                  > that the compassionate action, so far as
                                  possible, is to welcome
                                  these
                                  > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                  themselves
                                  > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.
                                  >
                                  > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                  > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                                  > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                                  > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages
                                  I,
                                  > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                  > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                  who,
                                  > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                  anyone
                                  > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                  stigma
                                  > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                  Wellness
                                  > Group:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  href="http://groups./" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                  >
                                  > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                  > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                  >
                                  > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get
                                  on
                                  > with their practice!
                                  >
                                  > With metta,
                                  >
                                  > Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                  ____________ __
                                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                  > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
                                  >




                                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                • imperialdlptutoring
                                  Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the penny to drop! Thanks! Mike ... state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 26, 2007
                                    Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the
                                    penny to drop!

                                    Thanks!

                                    Mike

                                    --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                                    <sallev1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Mike,
                                    > The key to this issue:
                                    >
                                    > "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                    > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                    > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
                                    >
                                    > lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking
                                    state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in
                                    which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally
                                    and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you
                                    should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has
                                    subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a
                                    theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves,
                                    there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all
                                    theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist
                                    or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the
                                    individual does their work.
                                    > I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings
                                    from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must
                                    also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma
                                    for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be
                                    saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in
                                    the Four Noble Truths.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                    > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
                                    > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness
                                    and
                                    > kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed
                                    and
                                    > vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take
                                    as
                                    > my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                    > words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                    > silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not
                                    do
                                    > harm.
                                    >
                                    > On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                    > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                    > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                    > relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                    > the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                    > this and it's implications!
                                    >
                                    > Metta,
                                    >
                                    > Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his
                                    point...)
                                    >
                                    > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
                                    > <sallev1@ > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Mike,
                                    > > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                    > > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                    > online
                                    > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
                                    individuals
                                    > who,
                                    > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                    > > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                    > that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                    > serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                    > (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                    > without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                    > really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                    > which others may not.
                                    > > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                    > question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                    > individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be
                                    no
                                    > way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a
                                    practioner),
                                    > if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon
                                    them
                                    > through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                    > responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                    > causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can
                                    not
                                    > be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                    > can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                    > admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only
                                    through "self
                                    > devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                    > the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                    > resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had
                                    us
                                    > incarnate in a body with
                                    > > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
                                    > is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                    > linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                    > knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                    > problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                    > > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                    > slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                    > implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the
                                    Monkey
                                    > mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is,
                                    through
                                    > attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                    > To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                    > to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                    > their "troubled/disturbed " state.
                                    > > None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding
                                    > arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues,
                                    as
                                    > I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                    > a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull"
                                    being
                                    > do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however,
                                    as
                                    > Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                    > to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further
                                    rare
                                    > to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                    > combination seems very sad.
                                    > >
                                    > > Steve
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
                                    > > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                    > > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more
                                    Compassion ?:
                                    > >
                                    > > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will
                                    go
                                    > > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                    > same:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                    > > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                    > > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                    > seemed
                                    > > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                    > >
                                    > > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a
                                    healthy
                                    > mind
                                    > > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental
                                    health
                                    > are
                                    > > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people
                                    suffering
                                    > > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                    > > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view
                                    is
                                    > > that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome
                                    > these
                                    > > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                    > themselves
                                    > > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn
                                    them.
                                    > >
                                    > > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                    > > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since
                                    people
                                    > > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot
                                    know
                                    > > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online
                                    messages
                                    > I,
                                    > > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                    online
                                    > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
                                    individuals
                                    > who,
                                    > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                    > anyone
                                    > > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                    > stigma
                                    > > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                    > Wellness
                                    > > Group:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                    > >
                                    > > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                    > > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                    > >
                                    > > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to
                                    get
                                    > on
                                    > > with their practice!
                                    > >
                                    > > With metta,
                                    > >
                                    > > Mike
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                    > ____________ __
                                    > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                    > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________________________
                                    ______________
                                    > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                    > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                    >
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