Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

Expand Messages
  • Federica Mastropaolo
    one more link http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/tonglen.htm ... From: Federica Mastropaolo To:
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 26, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      one more link
       
       


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Federica Mastropaolo <fedemastro@...>
      To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:26:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

      If one does not want to engage too much in intellectual studying, 
      there is a very nice 'practice' which is called Tonglen and one can work
      with  inner energy to developpe compassion.
       
       
       
      and so on, a lot with google help
       
      best
      Federica

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Steven Levey <sallev1@yahoo. com>
      To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:20:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

      Sir,
          I cannot thank you enough for these links to the study and meditation upon Bodhicitta. One needs as many useful perspectives on this as possible, and I found that these first two links are profoundly useful in those perspective. The problem is that studying the mind is very much like water studying itself. Therefore, one who would gain wisdom on Bodhicitta, a particular view is required.

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Thubten Pema Tenzin <thubtenpematenzin@ yahoo.co. in>
      To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:58:08 PM
      Subject: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

      How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
      Using world news global events images:
      when we see those earthquakes, floods,war, and humansuffering we can use
      those images to
      deepen our compassion and also to understand the universal truth that
      no being wishes
      to suffer.Also all of us swimming in this vast ocean of samsara wish
      to reach the shore.
      Tibetan Buddhist meditate on Bodhicitta:
      http://community. palouse.net/ lotus/bp1. htm
      http://www.lamayesh e.com/lamayeshe/ bodhi.shtml
      http://www.lamayesh e.com/about/ articles/ meditation. shtml
      Meditate on Metta Karuna :
      http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ buddharakkhita/ wheel365. html
      http://www.freemedi tations.com/ buddhist_ meditation/ metta_bhavana. html
      Read or listen to Santideva's Bodhicarayvatara:
      http://www.centregu ephel.org/ books/bodhicitta .html
      www.dalailama. com
      read The Kuan Yin Sutra Chapter 25 Lotus Sutra /Amida Sutra:
      http://www.buddhist information. com/ida_b_ wells_memorial_ sutra_library. ..
      http://www.buddhist information. com/chapter25. htm
      Life animal release on full moon:
      http://www.rinpoche .com/animalrelea se.html
      http://www.kagyu. org/ktd/liferele ase.php
      being vegetarian on the full moon:
      www.shabkar. org
      With Metta and Karuna
      Thubten Pema Tenzin
      buddhist monk contemplative




      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



      Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.



      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
    • dorjeshonnu
      ... if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 27, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sir,
        > I cannot thank you enough for these links to the study and meditation
        > upon Bodhicitta. One needs as many useful perspectives on this as
        > possible, and I found that these first two links are profoundly useful
        > in those perspective. The problem is that studying the mind is very
        > much like water studying itself. Therefore, one who would gain wisdom
        > on Bodhicitta, a particular view is required.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Thubten Pema Tenzin <thubtenpematenzin@...>
        > Thubten Pema Tenzin
        > buddhist monk contemplative

        if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.
      • Steven Levey
        Sorry, what is your point? Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 28, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Sorry, what is your point?
          Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of mind are you in to overlook the value of  links, which offer so much to the student regarding bodhicita, so that you might be accusitory. Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
          To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:53:06 PM
          Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

          Steven Levey <sallev1@... > wrote:

          >
          > Sir,
          > I cannot thank you enough for these links to the study and meditation
          > upon Bodhicitta. One needs as many useful perspectives on this as
          > possible, and I found that these first two links are profoundly useful
          > in those perspective. The problem is that studying the mind is very
          > much like water studying itself. Therefore, one who would gain wisdom
          > on Bodhicitta, a particular view is required.
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Thubten Pema Tenzin <thubtenpematenzin@ ...>
          > Thubten Pema Tenzin
          > buddhist monk contemplative

          if this person is a buddhist monk then I am choegyal of north america.




          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
        • dorjeshonnu
          ... Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are each capable of
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Steven Levey <sallev1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is
            > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of
            > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so much
            > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be accusatory.
            > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

            Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
            Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
            each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
            dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
            in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
            the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
            ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
            content is positive, the karma involved is negative.

            The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct any
            misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes. Particularly
            before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
            misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question Steven.
          • Steven Levey
            Well, thanks for the explaination. But, perhaps more importantly, thank you for your motive. I guess I wasn t prepared to have to discriminate in such a way.
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, thanks for the explaination. But, perhaps more importantly, thank you for your motive. I guess I wasn't prepared to have to discriminate in such a way. This was espceically so since the links themselves proved to be so useful. I don't consider myself particularly gullible, and I never considered the sender of the links for a moment, except with thanks. What a lovely mix of positive and negative, aye?
               
              Steve

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
              To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:19:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [TBG] How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

              Steven Levey <sallev1@... > wrote:

              >
              > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links, or is
              > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what state of
              > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so much
              > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be accusatory.
              > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?

              Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
              Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
              each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
              dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
              in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
              the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
              ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
              content is positive, the karma involved is negative.

              The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct any
              misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes. Particularly
              before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
              misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question Steven.




              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            • R. Kenoyer
              I m not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and nobody is soliciting donations. ~~Rachael
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 29, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and
                nobody is soliciting donations.

                ~~Rachael


                On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dorjeshonnu wrote:
                >
                > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
                > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
                > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value of
                > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter Ray
                > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
                > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only an
                > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
                > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
                >
              • Do I Even Know?
                The conserns about karma...aftr I look around googlin I find this drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person chasing around after
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  The conserns about karma...aftr I look around googlin' I find this
                  drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person
                  chasing around after what they perceive as a wrong get slapped with
                  karma?

                  The proper way to deal with impostors, as was relater to me by my
                  Lama, and which I have read in many books (Buddhist and Christian)
                  is to just ignore them. Don't waste time spreading angry hateful
                  words about people.

                  I do not know either of these persona, nor do I care how they
                  present themselves on the internet. The internet is a world of
                  false fronts and hidden identities. I can't prove wgho anyone is,
                  not even if I meet them in person. So why have a tissy about what
                  someone chooses as a name?

                  bahB


                  --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "R. Kenoyer"
                  <rubylou@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm not sure that it matters in this case. Dharma is dharma, and
                  > nobody is soliciting donations.
                  >
                  > ~~Rachael
                  >
                  >
                  > On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dorjeshonnu wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
                  > > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We
                  are
                  > > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The
                  value of
                  > > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of
                  Peter Ray
                  > > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content
                  with
                  > > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not
                  only an
                  > > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while
                  the
                  > > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
                  > >
                  >
                • dorjeshonnu
                  ... No tissy, no angry hateful words involved. But you try getting on your Lama s throne before a teaching. Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The concerns about karma... after I look around googlin' I find this
                    > drama is much larger than just a posting here. How does the person
                    > chasing around after what they perceive as a wrong get slapped with
                    > karma?
                    >
                    > The proper way to deal with impostors, as was related to me by my
                    > Lama, and which I have read in many books (Buddhist and Christian)
                    > is to just ignore them. Don't waste time spreading angry hateful
                    > words about people.
                    >
                    > I do not know either of these persona, nor do I care how they
                    > present themselves on the internet. The internet is a world of
                    > false fronts and hidden identities. I can't prove who anyone is,
                    > not even if I meet them in person. So why have a tissy about what
                    > someone chooses as a name?

                    No tissy, no angry hateful words involved.
                    But you try getting on your Lama's throne before a teaching.
                    Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what happens.

                    You will be removed, one way or another, for your own good.
                  • imperialdlptutoring
                    Isn t the real issue here kind and gentle speech and skillfullness (which I think are particularly important online since one can t see the facial expressions
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 4, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Isn't the real issue here kind and gentle speech and skillfullness
                      (which I think are particularly important online since one can't see
                      the facial expressions of people reading one's messages) rather than
                      whether someone is or isn't a monk (but, nonetheless a sentient being
                      who's wellness we should wish for)? I (personally) believe the
                      original motivation for the posting with links was positive and am
                      not (personally) interested in whether the person posting the message
                      is a monk or not. Further, I find it ironic and more than a little
                      disheartening that a thread about compassion, in one of the more
                      compassionate parts of the internet, degenerates into an exchange
                      which strikes me as far from compassionate. So, for the benefit of
                      ALL subscribers of this list could I respectfully request/suggest
                      that members exercise a measure of restraint and skillfullness
                      (motivated by compassion, being mindful particularly of 'right
                      speech') before posting messages which might be misconstrued and
                      cause mental anguish in fellow subscribers!

                      With metta,

                      Mike

                      --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                      <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Steven Levey <sallev1@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Is it that I am not a Buddhist Monk for appreciating the links,
                      or is
                      > > the one sending the links not a Buddhist monk? And just what
                      state of
                      > > mind are you in to overlook the value of links, which offer so
                      much
                      > > to the student regarding bodhicitta, so that you might be
                      accusatory.
                      > > Is that not the opposite of the intention here?
                      >
                      > Peter Ray is not a Buddhist monk. Peter Ray represents himself as
                      > Thubten Pema Tenzin, a purported monk, and a purported tulku. We are
                      > each capable of assessing the value of links on our own. The value
                      of
                      > dharma is beyond dispute; this is irrelevant. The actions of Peter
                      Ray
                      > in providing these links is an appropriation of dharma content with
                      > the intent of misrepresentation of his identity online as not only
                      an
                      > ordained, but also an accomplished source of refuge. Thus while the
                      > content is positive, the karma involved is negative.
                      >
                      > The compassionate action in this case is to take steps to correct
                      any
                      > misrepresentations of identity that Peter Ray undertakes.
                      Particularly
                      > before he begins soliciting donations on the basis of these
                      > misrepresentations - again. Thank you for the direct question
                      Steven.
                      >
                    • Do I Even Know?
                      And no actual responce to my questions or staements. I m not putting on any robes. The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your qualification
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        And no actual responce to my questions or staements.

                        I'm not putting on any robes.

                        The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                        qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge and
                        ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions here. I
                        am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your accusations.
                        Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other Buddhist (except
                        scammers) make a point about anyones qualifications as you have.



                        --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                        <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > No tissy, no angry hateful words involved.
                        > But you try getting on your Lama's throne before a teaching.
                        > Put on some robes and the whole kit. See what happens.
                        >
                        > You will be removed, one way or another, for your own good.
                        >
                      • dorjeshonnu
                        ... Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices are fruitful. The
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 5, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                          > qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge
                          > and ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions
                          > here. I am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your
                          > accusations. Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other Buddhist
                          > (except scammers) made a point about anyone's qualifications as you
                          > have.

                          Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my
                          wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices are
                          fruitful. The situation of my causes is greatly helped by the
                          Vajrasattva 100-syllable sadhana provided to me and others by the
                          Venerable Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche, as well as the other
                          wang/tri/lung empowerments and transmissions I've been fortunate
                          enough to receive from other teachers. I direct my daily actions
                          according to the advice and texts of credible sources of authority,
                          and own best judgment. While I do not live what some would call an
                          ideal life, I have confidence in the Three Jewels, my teachers, and
                          methods, and look forward to liberation, or the next life of benefit
                          to sentient beings.

                          There is no especial qualification involved in denouncing anyone,
                          other than that the situation be significant enough for action to be
                          taken, and that the person so denouncing be adequately informed enough
                          to make a credible assertion. In the case of a person falsely claiming
                          to be ordained sangha, the situation seems significant enough to me.

                          I am not privy to "all refuge and ordination records". In the case at
                          hand I am privy enough to the claims made by the individual, the
                          observed conduct of the individual, and his ongoing insinuations of
                          identity here. Amongst the various pictures he has taken from other
                          people's websites he includes a photo of documents, with refuge names,
                          that he claims are ordination records - these constitute nothing of
                          the sort. There have been various small inconsistencies in his
                          accounts about himself, some glaring problems with conduct, and in
                          fact vajra siblings of mine have investigated some of his claims
                          specifically.

                          For instance he has claimed to be a tulku recognized by Ngakpa Orgyen
                          Kusum Lingpa Rinpoche. An email was sent to the people here:

                          http://www.omura.com/k_lingpa/klingpa1.htm

                          and the response was this:

                          ...

                          "Hello,
                          I don't know who you are, or why you are concerned about this person.
                          I remember him having visited our center one time and as I remember
                          Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                          to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful. The last I knew
                          of him he was in Nepal, sending messages back for financial support.
                          There is no proof anywhere that Kusum Lingpa recognized him as a tulku.
                          Yours,
                          Yeshe Tarchin"

                          ...

                          Thus on the basis of small, greater, and direct statements from a
                          credible source as evidence, I have made my statements here, and am
                          satisfied with any causes which may in future ripen on the basis of
                          these actions.

                          I think it is uncommon to see this sort of thing because most people
                          in their right minds have no interest in representing themselves in
                          such a way. As you said, you will not be putting on the robes.

                          As for Peter Ray, whose name is actually, sorry, Donald Peter Ray Jr,
                          I am willing to believe that he has taken refuge and perhaps even
                          bodhisattva vows, and may in fact be deluded by the thought that these
                          have in some sense constituted full ordination. But this merely
                          compounds his difficulties if, having taken particular vows, he has
                          acted against them. In no sense do I believe him to be acting out of
                          pure malice, or that he is some kind of mara. It is simply that his
                          story does not hold up under inspection, and thus I believe he needs
                          to be protected from his own actions.
                        • Do I Even Know?
                          Thank you for the information. I will now put it all out of my mind if I can, and try to stay focused on what I can do to continue my own practices. bahB ...
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 7, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you for the information. I will now put it all out of my mind
                            if I can, and try to stay focused on what I can do to continue my
                            own practices.

                            bahB


                            --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                            <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "Do I Even Know?" <bahbdorje@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The Karmic Question concerns how YOU are acting. What is your
                            > > qualification to denounce people? Are you privy to all the refuge
                            > > and ordination records? What's the deal? I am asking questions
                            > > here. I am curious how it works that you feel untainted by your
                            > > accusations. Never has any Tibetan Buddhist, or any other
                            Buddhist
                            > > (except scammers) made a point about anyone's qualifications as
                            you
                            > > have.
                            >
                            > Hello to you in California. Thank you for your concern about my
                            > wellbeing. I appreciate it very much, and hope your own practices
                            are
                            > fruitful. The situation of my causes is greatly helped by the
                            > Vajrasattva 100-syllable sadhana provided to me and others by the
                            > Venerable Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche, as well as the other
                            > wang/tri/lung empowerments and transmissions I've been fortunate
                            > enough to receive from other teachers. I direct my daily actions
                            > according to the advice and texts of credible sources of authority,
                            > and own best judgment. While I do not live what some would call an
                            > ideal life, I have confidence in the Three Jewels, my teachers, and
                            > methods, and look forward to liberation, or the next life of
                            benefit
                            > to sentient beings.
                            >
                            > There is no especial qualification involved in denouncing anyone,
                            > other than that the situation be significant enough for action to
                            be
                            > taken, and that the person so denouncing be adequately informed
                            enough
                            > to make a credible assertion. In the case of a person falsely
                            claiming
                            > to be ordained sangha, the situation seems significant enough to
                            me.
                            >
                            > I am not privy to "all refuge and ordination records". In the case
                            at
                            > hand I am privy enough to the claims made by the individual, the
                            > observed conduct of the individual, and his ongoing insinuations of
                            > identity here. Amongst the various pictures he has taken from other
                            > people's websites he includes a photo of documents, with refuge
                            names,
                            > that he claims are ordination records - these constitute nothing of
                            > the sort. There have been various small inconsistencies in his
                            > accounts about himself, some glaring problems with conduct, and in
                            > fact vajra siblings of mine have investigated some of his claims
                            > specifically.
                            >
                            > For instance he has claimed to be a tulku recognized by Ngakpa
                            Orgyen
                            > Kusum Lingpa Rinpoche. An email was sent to the people here:
                            >
                            > http://www.omura.com/k_lingpa/klingpa1.htm
                            >
                            > and the response was this:
                            >
                            > ...
                            >
                            > "Hello,
                            > I don't know who you are, or why you are concerned about this
                            person.
                            > I remember him having visited our center one time and as I remember
                            > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                            seemed
                            > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful. The last I
                            knew
                            > of him he was in Nepal, sending messages back for financial
                            support.
                            > There is no proof anywhere that Kusum Lingpa recognized him as a
                            tulku.
                            > Yours,
                            > Yeshe Tarchin"
                            >
                            > ...
                            >
                            > Thus on the basis of small, greater, and direct statements from a
                            > credible source as evidence, I have made my statements here, and am
                            > satisfied with any causes which may in future ripen on the basis of
                            > these actions.
                            >
                            > I think it is uncommon to see this sort of thing because most
                            people
                            > in their right minds have no interest in representing themselves in
                            > such a way. As you said, you will not be putting on the robes.
                            >
                            > As for Peter Ray, whose name is actually, sorry, Donald Peter Ray
                            Jr,
                            > I am willing to believe that he has taken refuge and perhaps even
                            > bodhisattva vows, and may in fact be deluded by the thought that
                            these
                            > have in some sense constituted full ordination. But this merely
                            > compounds his difficulties if, having taken particular vows, he has
                            > acted against them. In no sense do I believe him to be acting out
                            of
                            > pure malice, or that he is some kind of mara. It is simply that his
                            > story does not hold up under inspection, and thus I believe he
                            needs
                            > to be protected from his own actions.
                            >
                          • imperialdlptutoring
                            Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go ... Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind (and, indeed,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                              quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the same:

                              --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
                              <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                              > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                              > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.

                              Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind
                              (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health are
                              widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                              mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                              control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                              that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome these
                              individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help themselves
                              (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.

                              I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                              subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                              suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                              what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages I,
                              personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                              when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                              through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If anyone
                              reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no stigma
                              in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist Wellness
                              Group:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhistWellnessGroup/

                              ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                              welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).

                              OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get on
                              with their practice!

                              With metta,

                              Mike
                            • Steven Levey
                              Dear Mike, Regarding this statement of yours: I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online when communicating with/about these
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 17, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Mike,
                                   Regarding this statement of yours:
                                 "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                                through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                    I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can, (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues) without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of which others may not.
                                   Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner), if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us incarnate in a body with an imperfect mind/brain relationship-it is still our Karma!). It is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                   There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara. To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of their "troubled/disturbed" state.
                                   None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a combination seems very sad.
                                 
                                Steve

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

                                Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                                quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the same:

                                --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:

                                > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He seemed
                                > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.

                                Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy mind
                                (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health are
                                widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                                mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                                that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome these
                                individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help themselves
                                (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.

                                I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                                suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                                what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages I,
                                personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals who,
                                through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If anyone
                                reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no stigma
                                in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist Wellness
                                Group:

                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/

                                ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).

                                OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get on
                                with their practice!

                                With metta,

                                Mike




                                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                              • imperialdlptutoring
                                Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and vulnerable people
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 19, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and
                                  kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and
                                  vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take as
                                  my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                  words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                  silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not do
                                  harm.

                                  On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                  diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                  relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                  relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                  the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                  this and it's implications!

                                  Metta,

                                  Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his point...)

                                  --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                                  <sallev1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Mike,
                                  > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                  > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                  online
                                  > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                  who,
                                  > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                  > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                  that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                  serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                  (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                  without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                  really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                  which others may not.
                                  > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                  question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                  individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no
                                  way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner),
                                  if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them
                                  through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                  responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                  causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not
                                  be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                  can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                  admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self
                                  devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                  the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                  resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us
                                  incarnate in a body with
                                  > an imperfect mind/brain relationship-it is still our Karma!). It
                                  is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                  linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                  knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                  problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                  > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                  slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                  implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey
                                  mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through
                                  attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                  To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                  to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                  their "troubled/disturbed" state.
                                  > None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding
                                  arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as
                                  I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                  a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being
                                  do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as
                                  Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                  to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare
                                  to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                  combination seems very sad.
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                  > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                  > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                  >
                                  > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                                  > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                  same:
                                  >
                                  > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                  > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                  > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                  seemed
                                  > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                  >
                                  > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy
                                  mind
                                  > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health
                                  are
                                  > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                                  > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                  > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                                  > that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome
                                  these
                                  > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                  themselves
                                  > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.
                                  >
                                  > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                  > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                                  > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                                  > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages
                                  I,
                                  > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                  > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                  who,
                                  > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                  anyone
                                  > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                  stigma
                                  > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                  Wellness
                                  > Group:
                                  >
                                  > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                  >
                                  > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                  > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                  >
                                  > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get
                                  on
                                  > with their practice!
                                  >
                                  > With metta,
                                  >
                                  > Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ______________________________________________________________________
                                  ______________
                                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                  > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                  >
                                • Steven Levey
                                  Mike, The key to this issue: On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 25, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mike,
                                         The key to this issue:

                                    "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                    diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                    relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
                                     
                                    lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves, there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the individual does their work. 
                                        I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in the Four Noble Truths.
                                     
                                    Steve
                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                    To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
                                    Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:

                                    Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness and
                                    kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed and
                                    vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take as
                                    my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                    words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                    silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not do
                                    harm.

                                    On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                    diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                    relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                    relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                    the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                    this and it's implications!

                                    Metta,

                                    Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his point...)

                                    --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
                                    <sallev1@... > wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Dear Mike,
                                    > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                    > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                    online
                                    > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                    who,
                                    > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                    > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                    that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                    serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                    (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                    without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                    really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                    which others may not.
                                    > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                    question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                    individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be no
                                    way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a practioner),
                                    if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon them
                                    through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                    responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                    causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can not
                                    be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                    can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                    admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only through "self
                                    devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                    the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                    resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had us
                                    incarnate in a body with
                                    > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
                                    is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                    linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                    knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                    problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                    > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                    slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                    implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the Monkey
                                    mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is, through
                                    attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                    To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                    to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                    their "troubled/disturbed " state.
                                    > None of the above is merely
                                    imperical. It is an understanding
                                    arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues, as
                                    I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                    a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull" being
                                    do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however, as
                                    Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                    to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further rare
                                    to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                    combination seems very sad.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
                                    > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                    >
                                    Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                    >
                                    > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will go
                                    > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                    same:
                                    >
                                    > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                    > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                    > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                    seemed
                                    > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                    >
                                    > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a healthy
                                    mind
                                    > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental health
                                    are
                                    > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people suffering
                                    > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                    > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view is
                                    > that the compassionate action, so far as
                                    possible, is to welcome
                                    these
                                    > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                    themselves
                                    > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn them.
                                    >
                                    > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                    > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since people
                                    > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot know
                                    > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online messages
                                    I,
                                    > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important online
                                    > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed individuals
                                    who,
                                    > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                    anyone
                                    > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                    stigma
                                    > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                    Wellness
                                    > Group:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    href="http://groups./" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                    >
                                    > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                    > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                    >
                                    > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to get
                                    on
                                    > with their practice!
                                    >
                                    > With metta,
                                    >
                                    > Mike
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                    ____________ __
                                    > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                    > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
                                    >




                                    Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  • imperialdlptutoring
                                    Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the penny to drop! Thanks! Mike ... state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 26, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks, Steve- that makes sense. I just needed a bit of time for the
                                      penny to drop!

                                      Thanks!

                                      Mike

                                      --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                                      <sallev1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Mike,
                                      > The key to this issue:
                                      >
                                      > "On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                      > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                      > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness."
                                      >
                                      > lies in the those conditions under which we subscribe upon taking
                                      state liscensure boards, and which I understand. There is no way in
                                      which one who takes such "vows" can keep his practice, both morally
                                      and legally, if they were to go back on their basis. However, you
                                      should be aware that regardless of these rules to which one has
                                      subscribed, unless the patient will take the advice given as a
                                      theraputics to be PRACTICED and APPLIED to themselves-by themselves,
                                      there will be no benefit for him (her). In this sense all
                                      theraputics, whether offered by a liscenced practioner (Psychiatrist
                                      or otherwise), or a Monk will not have any effect, unless the
                                      individual does their work.
                                      > I feel that we must not seperate the Dharama of the Teachings
                                      from our daily life, and since we subscribe to the Dharma, it must
                                      also hold true in the world of our daily round. If not, the Dharma
                                      for us is only another sectarian practice where we are looking to be
                                      saved, rather than save ourselves with the aide of the Truth as in
                                      the Four Noble Truths.
                                      >
                                      > Steve
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutoring@...>
                                      > To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:03:45 AM
                                      > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more Compassion ?:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Steve! On the first point, I still hold that skillfullness
                                      and
                                      > kind and gentle speech are important when dealing with disturbed
                                      and
                                      > vulnerable people and other 'difficult' situations in life. I take
                                      as
                                      > my basic moral benchmark 'non harm' (in speech and action). Will my
                                      > words (or actions) do harm to others?? If so, then either remain
                                      > silent or rephrase them (more skillfully) in a form that will not
                                      do
                                      > harm.
                                      >
                                      > On the second point I think the issue of responsibility and
                                      > diminished responsibility is a complicated one legally and in
                                      > relating to/helping people suffering mental illness. But, as a
                                      > relative Buddhist neophyte, I'm grateful for your explanation from
                                      > the Buddhist perspective, and will take some time to try and digest
                                      > this and it's implications!
                                      >
                                      > Metta,
                                      >
                                      > Mike (who really will try and go quiet here, having made his
                                      point...)
                                      >
                                      > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, Steven Levey
                                      > <sallev1@ > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear Mike,
                                      > > Regarding this statement of yours:
                                      > > "I personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                      > online
                                      > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
                                      individuals
                                      > who,
                                      > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness."
                                      > > I feel a couple of ways at once about this. First, let me say
                                      > that I think your basic point is well taken. But I also think it
                                      > serves well to have another explain a situation as best they can,
                                      > (such as he who initially made us aware of the other's issues)
                                      > without, as you mentioned, harsh overtones. That is, if they are
                                      > really aware of something regarding a possible abuse of trust, of
                                      > which others may not.
                                      > > Secondly, If it were true that the mental instability in
                                      > question were really-karmically, not the fault of the disturbed
                                      > individual, then by the law of our being and Karma, there would be
                                      no
                                      > way for one to make corrections (even as presented by a
                                      practioner),
                                      > if they were inclined to allow Buddhism to work its alchemy upon
                                      them
                                      > through a new humility and Mindfullness. This is because we are all
                                      > responsable for the state of our minds, even in so much that the
                                      > causes seem inscrutable. So, if we are not the cause, then we can
                                      not
                                      > be the effect. Therefore, it must be true-only if we are the cause
                                      > can we be effective in making the change, which we first have to
                                      > admit we need (no small task), and then admit that only
                                      through "self
                                      > devised and self imposed efforts" can equalibrium be reinstated-by
                                      > the one who at some point must have been the original cause in the
                                      > resultant disequalibrium (even in the case where our Karma has had
                                      us
                                      > incarnate in a body with
                                      > > an imperfect mind/brain relationship- it is still our Karma!). It
                                      > is taught, and experience shows, that Cause and Effect is an exact
                                      > linear relationship, although egoity wishes for only reasons it
                                      > knows, to make it seem otherwise. Of course this is part of the
                                      > problem of any resultant mental disequalibrium.
                                      > > There is a Tibetan text which says that "The mind is the great
                                      > slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer". The
                                      > implication being that it is only though Buddha mind that the
                                      Monkey
                                      > mind can be aligned. However, until then, the Monkey mind is,
                                      through
                                      > attachment to external phenomena, making desicions based upon Mara.
                                      > To varying degrees, this is the cause of delusion for all of us and
                                      > to those most afflicted, it is also the basis of
                                      > their "troubled/disturbed " state.
                                      > > None of the above is merely imperical. It is an understanding
                                      > arrived at through Mindfullness and application to my own issues,
                                      as
                                      > I have learned from those wiser than me. Does it require
                                      > a "Professional" to present the antidote? Or, will a "wakefull"
                                      being
                                      > do? Can there be both?-Sure. I think it aught to be said however,
                                      as
                                      > Psong ka pa points out, as do others, that this human state is rare
                                      > to attain, and per the Diamond Sutra, it is must be even further
                                      rare
                                      > to have the Karma of the Three Jewels in ones life. To abuse such a
                                      > combination seems very sad.
                                      > >
                                      > > Steve
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > From: imperialdlptutoring <imperialdlptutorin g@...>
                                      > > To: tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:00:26 AM
                                      > > Subject: [TBG] Re: How can we as Buddhist develop more
                                      Compassion ?:
                                      > >
                                      > > Just picking up on one (important) point and then I really will
                                      go
                                      > > quiet, return to my practice, and allow the group/list to do the
                                      > same:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                                      > > <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                                      > > > Kusum Lingpa only recognized him to be a pretty crazy guy. He
                                      > seemed
                                      > > > to me to be mentally unbalanced although not harmful.
                                      > >
                                      > > Since Buddhism IS par excellence about sanity and having a
                                      healthy
                                      > mind
                                      > > (and, indeed, the benefits of meditation in terms of mental
                                      health
                                      > are
                                      > > widely documented), not surprisingly, quite a few people
                                      suffering
                                      > > mental illness ARE drawn to Buddhism (in a genuine effort to take
                                      > > control of their minds and help themselves). So my personal view
                                      is
                                      > > that the compassionate action, so far as possible, is to welcome
                                      > these
                                      > > individuals and applaud/assist them in their efforts to help
                                      > themselves
                                      > > (albeit sometimes deluded and misguided) rather than condemn
                                      them.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also believe quite a few individuals suffering mental illness
                                      > > subscribe to online Buddhist lists like this one. So, since
                                      people
                                      > > suffering mental illness may be very vulnerable, and we cannot
                                      know
                                      > > what state of mind they are in when posting/reading online
                                      messages
                                      > I,
                                      > > personally, believe kind and gentle speech is VERY important
                                      online
                                      > > when communicating with/about these troubled/disturbed
                                      individuals
                                      > who,
                                      > > through no fault of their own, are suffering mental illness. If
                                      > anyone
                                      > > reading this post IS suffering mental illness (and there is no
                                      > stigma
                                      > > in that) perhaps I could draw your attention to the Buddhist
                                      > Wellness
                                      > > Group:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BuddhistWe llnessGroup/
                                      > >
                                      > > ... which has an explicitly mental health focus and where all are
                                      > > welcomed (whether monks or not ;-) ).
                                      > >
                                      > > OK, I really WILL go quiet here and leave everyone in peace to
                                      get
                                      > on
                                      > > with their practice!
                                      > >
                                      > > With metta,
                                      > >
                                      > > Mike
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                      > ____________ __
                                      > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                      > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ______________________________________________________________________
                                      ______________
                                      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                      > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.