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Re: spirits

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  • alex
    Thank you for that, so then Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely broken samay and became a bad ghost? Is Padmasambhava the only one capable to tame bad ghosts?
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 27, 2008
      Thank you for that, so then Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely
      broken samay and became a bad ghost?
      Is Padmasambhava the only one capable to tame bad ghosts?
      And didn't the all knowing emanation of avalokiteshvara relied on a
      bad ghost for more than 20 years. What happend with the spiritual
      authority?

      Alex

      --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
      <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
      >
      > "alex" <alexmorgan777@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I've learned that the 9th and 10th Panchen Lamas practiced it.
      > > Why wouldn't the 8th do the same?
      >
      > a gyalpo spirit can sometimes seem to be tamed by dharma, and then
      > show its true colours periodically. a small number of protectors,
      for
      > instance pehar the guardian of tibet, are gyalpo. these spirits can
      > bring wars and other calamities; in general they can agitate the
      > nervous system and create a kind of paranoia; only advanced
      > practitioners should attempt to work with them.
      >
      > they tend to result from the deaths of mantrayana practitioners who
      > have severely broken samaya. they are strong. so, they can sometimes
      > be useful, but it requires someone very capable to genuinely tame
      > them. this particular gyalpo was not around when padmasambhava tamed
      > most of the various other guardians. this is something the gelugpa
      > dissidents tend not to teach people about, and is fairly important.
      >
      > some births have more insight into the behaviour of spirits than
      > others. what you're looking at now is a comparison in spiritual
      > authority between an emanation of avalokiteshvara (tenzin gyatso),
      and
      > a legacy of spirit propitiation adhered to out of loyalty and fear.
      > fear because when a gyalpo is propitiated it is like a drug - you
      > should maintain the amount of practice you perform from day to day,
      or
      > there will be negative consequences instead of benefits. in
      mantrayana
      > one should always hold the teacher, who represents all three jewels,
      > before the spirit, hovering wherever it hovers, with whatever status
      > it may display.
      >
      > frankly there is a difference between even a liberated being and an
      > all-knowing awakened being, and the inability to distinguish clearly
      > between the paths and stages has led not only to political
      > entanglements, but also the downfall of practitioners. also what we
      > see here is the result of very prideful practitioners jumping ahead
      of
      > themselves and obtaining all kinds of honours, such that they think
      > they are able to play with gyalpo as padmasambhava did. it is quite
      sad.
      >
      > there was a point when certain individuals attempted to practice
      > dharma in tibet without paying attention to the various spirits, and
      > began to feel very strong and mighty politically, and started to
      > oppress other practitioners, telling them what to do and so on. so
      > those who knew what they were doing made these certain individuals
      pay
      > attention to the various spirits somewhat forcefully, using those
      > spirits directly, according to their realization. thus chastened,
      the
      > prideful ones tapered off their persecution, deciding that they
      should
      > look more deeply into these practices of spirits - and so they did,
      > and continue, according to their realization. and thus we stand at
      the
      > current stage of affairs... in a general sort of way.
      >
      > to understand the present, you must understand the past; and when
      the
      > politics involve multiple consistent rebirths stretching out over
      > centuries between different schools of thought, one cannot deal
      with a
      > single modern issue superficially.
      >
      > expecting bodhisattvas to be buddhas must result in tragedy.
      > holding a spirit's authority over that of an emanation must also.
      >
      > choose your teachers carefully, and focus mostly on dharma.
      >
    • dorjeshonnu
      ... you don t need to worry about any of this unless you are a mantrayana practitioner. who is your teacher? what dharma are you practicing? ... no. you don t
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 27, 2008
        "alex" <alexmorgan777@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you for that, so then Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely
        > broken samaya and became a bad ghost?

        you don't need to worry about any of this unless you are a mantrayana
        practitioner. who is your teacher? what dharma are you practicing?

        > Is Padmasambhava the only one capable to tame bad ghosts?

        no. you don't need a rainbow body to tame.
        but you should have genuinely accomplished some wrathful practices.
        at least. for gyalpo you should be a high lama (not just by title).

        > And didn't the all knowing emanation of avalokiteshvara rely on a
        > bad ghost for more than 20 years. What happened with the spiritual
        > authority?

        who said the emanation is all knowing, me? you?
        anyway I suppose it's a fair question. small children can be led.
        also, special knowledge can depend upon where your attention is directed.
      • alex
        I don`t have a teacher, I`m on my own for now. Nechung(a tamed bad ghost) told Dalai Lama that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely broken samaya and became a
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 28, 2008
          I don`t have a teacher, I`m on my own for now.
          Nechung(a tamed bad ghost) told Dalai Lama that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen
          had a severely broken samaya and became a bad ghost?
          Is this the secret view of some, but you don`t have to say anythig if
          you know.

          Others say that he was great, he was already enlightened and murdered
          out of some jealousy. He's an enlightened dharma protector.

          Alex


          --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
          <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
          >
          > "alex" <alexmorgan777@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thank you for that, so then Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely
          > > broken samaya and became a bad ghost?
          >
          > you don't need to worry about any of this unless you are a
          mantrayana
          > practitioner. who is your teacher? what dharma are you practicing?
          >
          > > Is Padmasambhava the only one capable to tame bad ghosts?
          >
          > no. you don't need a rainbow body to tame.
          > but you should have genuinely accomplished some wrathful practices.
          > at least. for gyalpo you should be a high lama (not just by title).
          >
          > > And didn't the all knowing emanation of avalokiteshvara rely on a
          > > bad ghost for more than 20 years. What happened with the
          spiritual
          > > authority?
          >
          > who said the emanation is all knowing, me? you?
          > anyway I suppose it's a fair question. small children can be led.
          > also, special knowledge can depend upon where your attention is
          directed.
          >
        • dorjeshonnu
          ... some say that trying to learn about these things on the internet is a bad idea. when you have an established mantrayana practice you will understand the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 28, 2008
            "alex" <alexmorgan777@...> wrote:
            >
            > Others say that he was great, he was already enlightened and
            > murdered out of some jealousy. He's an enlightened dharma
            > protector.

            some say that trying to learn about these things on the internet is a
            bad idea. when you have an established mantrayana practice you will
            understand the differences more clearly. before then there is little
            point in just adding another internet voice to the cacophony your
            unripened head. it has nothing to do with secrecy.

            > practitioners are attacked in many different ways by the Dalai Lama
            > fanatics.

            here you don't sound like some kind of novice, you sound like an
            outlet for propaganda. take it elsewhere please.

            > He went full force against the majority of the Gelugpa order,
            > converting everyone into the Rime mentality. He is doing it for
            > Tibet thinking it will help, without understanding the damage it
            > causes to the Gelugpa lineage.

            ris.med does not damage any lineage. it merely prevents each lineage
            from discriminating against other lineages. ris.med is simple
            non-sectarianism. it is interesting how you write about "damage" but
            do not specify what kind of "damage" you think is involved. in the
            same way that hostile racist speech should not have protection and
            freedom, the sectarianism of these gelugpa dissidents has no place in
            dharma.

            > Why did (2nd Buddha) Tsongkhapa make that reform in the first
            > place?

            I suspect you will find that in this group padmasambhava is regarded
            as the second buddha. in general je tsongkhapa did not "reform"
            anything, he revived some standards of monasticism etc as a sarma
            moralist, in the line of atisha. his presentation of madhyamaka is
            idiosyncratic, it is designed so that simple people will have better
            access to the doctrine. otherwise he was originally of sakya lineage.

            > Esoteric traditions around the world know that the Dalai Lamas
            > represent the outer form of Buddhism and the Panchen Lamas the
            > inner, there are also unknown Lamas. You should clearly know all
            > this.

            "esoteric traditions around the world" know less than you think.
            get off the internet and get a teacher and practice some dharma.
          • alex
            Good that it s not a secret. I am worried about Mahayana Buddhism, all I have is the internet, youtube, the words of other Gelug tantric masters etc. I m here
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 28, 2008
              Good that it's not a secret. I am worried about Mahayana Buddhism,
              all I have is the internet, youtube, the words of other Gelug tantric
              masters etc. I'm here to see people's theories, after doing some
              digging I now have many doubts about the Dalai Lama.

              Can anyone here help explain to whom does this evil spirit belong to?

              I'm beginning to understand that the waters here are little
              different, so I will just stick to may question.

              I'm sorry if I sounded negative.

              --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "dorjeshonnu"
              <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
              >
              > "alex" <alexmorgan777@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Others say that he was great, he was already enlightened and
              > > murdered out of some jealousy. He's an enlightened dharma
              > > protector.
              >
              > some say that trying to learn about these things on the internet is
              a
              > bad idea. when you have an established mantrayana practice you will
              > understand the differences more clearly. before then there is little
              > point in just adding another internet voice to the cacophony your
              > unripened head. it has nothing to do with secrecy.
              >
              > > practitioners are attacked in many different ways by the Dalai
              Lama
              > > fanatics.
              >
              > here you don't sound like some kind of novice, you sound like an
              > outlet for propaganda. take it elsewhere please.
              >
              > > He went full force against the majority of the Gelugpa order,
              > > converting everyone into the Rime mentality. He is doing it for
              > > Tibet thinking it will help, without understanding the damage it
              > > causes to the Gelugpa lineage.
              >
              > ris.med does not damage any lineage. it merely prevents each lineage
              > from discriminating against other lineages. ris.med is simple
              > non-sectarianism. it is interesting how you write about "damage" but
              > do not specify what kind of "damage" you think is involved. in the
              > same way that hostile racist speech should not have protection and
              > freedom, the sectarianism of these gelugpa dissidents has no place
              in
              > dharma.
              >
              > > Why did (2nd Buddha) Tsongkhapa make that reform in the first
              > > place?
              >
              > I suspect you will find that in this group padmasambhava is regarded
              > as the second buddha. in general je tsongkhapa did not "reform"
              > anything, he revived some standards of monasticism etc as a sarma
              > moralist, in the line of atisha. his presentation of madhyamaka is
              > idiosyncratic, it is designed so that simple people will have better
              > access to the doctrine. otherwise he was originally of sakya
              lineage.
              >
              > > Esoteric traditions around the world know that the Dalai Lamas
              > > represent the outer form of Buddhism and the Panchen Lamas the
              > > inner, there are also unknown Lamas. You should clearly know all
              > > this.
              >
              > "esoteric traditions around the world" know less than you think.
              > get off the internet and get a teacher and practice some dharma.
              >
            • Steven Levey
              Alex,      There are many material spiritualists who for some reason have a desire nature most ripe for intrigue and conspiracy. The world is rife with
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 28, 2008
                Alex,
                     There are many material spiritualists who for some reason have a desire nature most ripe for intrigue and conspiracy. The world is rife with these and those who are attracted to them because we are now in a transition period where the original teachings of this tradition needs revitalization with fresh and open minds that are not afraid to step out on their own and become a "Light unto themselves" while revitalizing their lineage.
                    You say you don't have a teacher yet you seem inclined to allow yourself to be led by what others espouse. All of which are as the questions of non-edification the Buddha spoke of, which lead the student astray from practicing the Paramitas which are inherent to the 4th Noble Truth.
                    I say again, listen with the clear ear of mindfullness when listening to the Dalai Lama, and you will detect, as even many non-Buddhists do, the heart of genuine Rinpoche, who is never judgemental of others teaching and never preaches intrigue or conspiracy, and would never therefore, lead the Gelugpa astray. This is lineage to which I am in great appreciation as begun by Tsong ka pa, and the teaching is clear. LIVE IT or simply find something else which you can live.
                    That's all I really have to say on this subject, since my concern is an understanding of Buddhism and how to live it, that being enough and difficult enough for me.
                 
                Steve
                   
                --- On Fri, 11/28/08, alex <alexmorgan777@...> wrote:
                From: alex <alexmorgan777@...>
                Subject: [TBG] Re: spirits
                To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 4:20 AM

                I don`t have a teacher, I`m on my own for now.
                Nechung(a tamed bad ghost) told Dalai Lama that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen
                had a severely broken samaya and became a bad ghost?
                Is this the secret view of some, but you don`t have to say anythig if
                you know.

                Others say that he was great, he was already enlightened and murdered
                out of some jealousy. He's an enlightened dharma protector.

                Alex

                --- In tibetanbuddhistgrou p@yahoogroups. com, "dorjeshonnu"
                <dorjeshonnu@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > "alex" <alexmorgan777@ > wrote:
                > >
                > > Thank you for that, so then Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had a severely
                > > broken samaya and became a bad ghost?
                >
                > you don't need to worry about any of this unless you are a
                mantrayana
                > practitioner. who is your teacher? what dharma are you practicing?
                >
                > > Is Padmasambhava the only one capable to tame bad ghosts?
                >
                > no. you don't need a rainbow body to tame.
                > but you should have genuinely accomplished some wrathful practices.
                > at least. for gyalpo you should be a high lama (not just by title).
                >
                > > And didn't the all knowing emanation of avalokiteshvara rely on a
                > > bad ghost for more than 20 years. What happened with the
                spiritual
                > > authority?
                >
                > who said the emanation is all knowing, me? you?
                > anyway I suppose it's a fair question. small children can be led.
                > also, special knowledge can depend upon where your attention is
                directed.
                >


              • Sherab Gyatso Golovin
                ... desire nature most ripe for intrigue and conspiracy. ... I think Steven Levey has become best addition to this group in recent years. I remember having
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 29, 2008
                  --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                  <sallev1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Alex,
                  > There are many material spiritualists who for some reason have a
                  desire nature most ripe for intrigue and conspiracy.

                  ---------------

                  I think Steven Levey has become best addition to this group in recent
                  years. I remember having slight debate with him over some or other,
                  now reading lines above and more of his message, I can not but just
                  agree, would not you?

                  So, here is the problem that Alex Morgan has, he does not find Dalai
                  Lama to be 100% teacher material for himself. Then if I may ask, what
                  is the problem?

                  The "Protector" is? Well, my answer is that I follow Nyingma tradition
                  in general and actually in particular, however I took long (5 year)
                  course on Lam-Rim, Kadampa Mind Training and so on from a high Gelug
                  Lama. So, I went there with Guru Padmasambhava in my heart and I
                  listened with attention to these very popular teachings. I now think
                  that they have benefited me. More over, I will never look down upon
                  these teachings. However it is thought possible by some to say,
                  "people do not understand!" or "people need this!" or even better
                  "people ONLY need that!", these kinds of limiting statements are amusing.

                  It is said that Lord Buddha himself did teach 84,000 complete
                  collections of teachings, if it were up to some one to write one
                  collection completely down, the amount of ink needed would be as huge
                  as a load on elephant's back.

                  So even just knowing about this diversity should put one's mind at
                  ease. Rest assured: There is Dharma out there that is just right for you.

                  Now it is very important to not get tangled up in any sectarianism any
                  materialistic ideas about Dharma. We are just simple practitioners(I
                  assume here) that are not responsible for large monastic communities,
                  so we just need to try and rest our minds at ease, practice Dharma
                  that we received. Otherwise there is no way we can call ourselves even
                  "followers" of Dharma. We become just idle gossips.

                  Human condition is ripe with these two:

                  ATTRACTION
                  and
                  AVERSION

                  Resting your mind at ease with enough focus to try and stay away from
                  heightened attraction or aversion is very important.

                  So after so many messages explaining why it is not really welcome to
                  bring this problem around here so persistently, I would ask you to
                  please stop doing so, or as Joe said I would have to start moderating
                  postings in the discussion.

                  -Have a Good Heart.
                • alex
                  Thank you guys for your time Wish you all well Alex ... recent ... what ... tradition ... amusing. ... huge ... for you. ... any ... communities, ... even ...
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 29, 2008
                    Thank you guys for your time

                    Wish you all well

                    Alex

                    --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sherab Gyatso Golovin"
                    <sherabgyatso@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey
                    > <sallev1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Alex,
                    > > There are many material spiritualists who for some reason have a
                    > desire nature most ripe for intrigue and conspiracy.
                    >
                    > ---------------
                    >
                    > I think Steven Levey has become best addition to this group in
                    recent
                    > years. I remember having slight debate with him over some or other,
                    > now reading lines above and more of his message, I can not but just
                    > agree, would not you?
                    >
                    > So, here is the problem that Alex Morgan has, he does not find Dalai
                    > Lama to be 100% teacher material for himself. Then if I may ask,
                    what
                    > is the problem?
                    >
                    > The "Protector" is? Well, my answer is that I follow Nyingma
                    tradition
                    > in general and actually in particular, however I took long (5 year)
                    > course on Lam-Rim, Kadampa Mind Training and so on from a high Gelug
                    > Lama. So, I went there with Guru Padmasambhava in my heart and I
                    > listened with attention to these very popular teachings. I now think
                    > that they have benefited me. More over, I will never look down upon
                    > these teachings. However it is thought possible by some to say,
                    > "people do not understand!" or "people need this!" or even better
                    > "people ONLY need that!", these kinds of limiting statements are
                    amusing.
                    >
                    > It is said that Lord Buddha himself did teach 84,000 complete
                    > collections of teachings, if it were up to some one to write one
                    > collection completely down, the amount of ink needed would be as
                    huge
                    > as a load on elephant's back.
                    >
                    > So even just knowing about this diversity should put one's mind at
                    > ease. Rest assured: There is Dharma out there that is just right
                    for you.
                    >
                    > Now it is very important to not get tangled up in any sectarianism
                    any
                    > materialistic ideas about Dharma. We are just simple practitioners(I
                    > assume here) that are not responsible for large monastic
                    communities,
                    > so we just need to try and rest our minds at ease, practice Dharma
                    > that we received. Otherwise there is no way we can call ourselves
                    even
                    > "followers" of Dharma. We become just idle gossips.
                    >
                    > Human condition is ripe with these two:
                    >
                    > ATTRACTION
                    > and
                    > AVERSION
                    >
                    > Resting your mind at ease with enough focus to try and stay away
                    from
                    > heightened attraction or aversion is very important.
                    >
                    > So after so many messages explaining why it is not really welcome to
                    > bring this problem around here so persistently, I would ask you to
                    > please stop doing so, or as Joe said I would have to start
                    moderating
                    > postings in the discussion.
                    >
                    > -Have a Good Heart.
                    >
                  • Steve Cody
                    Note: From the moderator, you guys are welcome to take the discussion off the list. Hi D I have learnt some stuff from reading your posts, but have so say that
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1, 2008
                      Hi D
                      I have learnt some stuff from reading your posts, but have so say that you do come across as a bit superior and twattish, in my opinion.
                      Best wishes
                      Ste

                      --- On Fri, 28/11/08, dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...> wrote:
                      From: dorjeshonnu <dorjeshonnu@...>
                      Subject: [TBG] Re: spirits
                      To: tibetanbuddhistgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, 28 November, 2008, 5:13 PM

                      "alex" <alexmorgan777@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Others say that he was great, he was already enlightened and
                      > murdered out of some jealousy. He's an enlightened dharma
                      > protector.

                      some say that trying to learn about these things on the internet is a
                      bad idea. when you have an established mantrayana practice you will
                      understand the differences more clearly. before then there is little
                      point in just adding another internet voice to the cacophony your
                      unripened head. it has nothing to do with secrecy.

                      > practitioners are attacked in many different ways by the Dalai Lama
                      > fanatics.

                      here you don't sound like some kind of novice, you sound like an
                      outlet for propaganda. take it elsewhere please.

                      > He went full force against the majority of the Gelugpa order,
                      > converting everyone into the Rime mentality. He is doing it for
                      > Tibet thinking it will help, without understanding the damage it
                      > causes to the Gelugpa lineage.

                      ris.med does not damage any lineage. it merely prevents each lineage
                      from discriminating against other lineages. ris.med is simple
                      non-sectarianism. it is interesting how you write about "damage" but
                      do not specify what kind of "damage" you think is involved. in the
                      same way that hostile racist speech should not have protection and
                      freedom, the sectarianism of these gelugpa dissidents has no place in
                      dharma.

                      > Why did (2nd Buddha) Tsongkhapa make that reform in the first
                      > place?

                      I suspect you will find that in this group padmasambhava is regarded
                      as the second buddha. in general je tsongkhapa did not "reform"
                      anything, he revived some standards of monasticism etc as a sarma
                      moralist, in the line of atisha. his presentation of madhyamaka is
                      idiosyncratic, it is designed so that simple people will have better
                      access to the doctrine. otherwise he was originally of sakya lineage.

                      > Esoteric traditions around the world know that the Dalai Lamas
                      > represent the outer form of Buddhism and the Panchen Lamas the
                      > inner, there are also unknown Lamas. You should clearly know all
                      > this.

                      "esoteric traditions around the world" know less than you think.
                      get off the internet and get a teacher and practice some dharma.


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