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Re: [TI-99/4A]TI Contributors, was Kyle Kritendon....

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  • Tursi
    ... You have no more say than anyone else, James. Although it s nice to see that you finally acknowledge it is Marc s software and Marc s choice. But I think
    Message 1 of 80 , May 1, 2009
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      > Marc has made and posted his say. Anyone else, has no say. Let it
      > die.
      > It is not anyone's program but Marc's. What Marc does is both correct
      > and the law.

      You have no more say than anyone else, James. Although it's nice to see
      that you finally acknowledge it is Marc's software and Marc's choice.

      But I think you're right. The vocal part of the community has made its
      point clear. I'm very disappointed in it.
    • Marc Hull
      Nope... I m gonna try and keep my nose clean from now on. Congrats on the award Tim,  You owe us all a beer now ;-) ... From: Insane Multitasker
      Message 80 of 80 , May 2, 2009
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        Nope... I'm gonna try and keep my nose clean from now on. Congrats on the award Tim,  You owe us all a beer now ;-)

        --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...> wrote:

        From: Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...>
        Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 9:37 PM

        You aren't trying to trump the copyright discussion
        by starting one on patents, are you? shame, shame...


        grin


        ----------------------------------------
        > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        > From: marc.hull@...
        > Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:22:51 -0700
        > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >
        > The TI easy back oven for nerds .........Brilliant !! If ya don't mind
        i'm gonna patent that idea
        >
        >
        > (Didn't say copyright I said patent...)
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Insane Multitasker wrote:
        >
        > From: Insane Multitasker
        > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 7:11 PM
        >
        > Darn it all, Marc, what will we do without endless banter about
        > copyright? We may all have to use our heads and approach this
        > with common sense!!
        >
        > Pizza sounds like a good idea. I can delete the last two days worth
        > of list server email whilst I wait for my TI power-supply powered oven
        > baking surface to heat up. It's not as quick as the Presto pizza
        > maker, but there is something mildly nostalgic about heating up your
        > slice of pizza pit atop a nice, warm transformer. Who needs teflon when
        > you have the nice, shiny metallic surface!
        >
        >
        >
        > (had to be sure to keep this on topic)
        >
        > tim
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------
        >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        >> From: marc.hull@...
        >> Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:22:16 -0700
        >> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >>
        >> No Eric...... What you said was to cut the legal disclaimer from a
        > document and paste it in your document. That is a copyright violation
        unless the
        > copyright holder has given you permission to do so.
        >>
        >> Now I really have to quit. this is seriously giving me a headach and
        > cutting into my beer time. Good night Eric....
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>
        >> From: Eric Bray
        >> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        >> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 5:52 PM
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> You are incorrect!
        >>
        >> Go back and reread the thread --> it was about the author making
        sure
        > all of his or her rights were protected by making sure that they wrote
        them down
        > for all to see; I suggested that they "boiler plate" the legal
        > documents and include them as part of the software.
        >>
        >> Then someone made the remark that "boiler plating" legal
        > documents wasn't right and I said that that is done all the time in
        the
        > legal world and any charge for that document is not limited to just the
        cost of
        > that "boiler plate document" if the author wishes to charge more
        for
        > preparation of said document to protect his or her rights!
        >>
        >> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>> WOW.... I was just trying to break it down and un complicate it a
        bit
        > but since that confused you more I'll go back to the will example....
        >>>
        >>> If you buy a premade will you indeed do own that particular piece
        of
        > paper and the copyright owner has granted you a license to use that piece
        of
        > paper in your activities BUT (and this is the important part) Just because
        you
        > "OWN" that particular piece of paper does NOT mean that you
        bought the
        > rights to duplicate and sell that document. That right is reserved for the
        > copyright holder.
        >>>
        >>> Maybe you should have a beer as well.....
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>> From: Eric Bray
        >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 4:46 PM
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Don't change the SUBJECT we were discussing!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> The discussion was about "boiler plate documents"!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> You said:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>>>You may buy a license to use those boiler plates (which is
        > really
        >>>
        >>>>>what you are doing) but you may NOT copy them and include
        them
        > in
        >>>
        >>>>>works that you are selling. Look at the real tiny writing
        Eric.
        >>>
        >>>>>Bet it says copyright somewhere.
        >>>
        >>>>>Your confusion is becoming>epic....
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> When I informed you that your ideas and thoughts about
        "boiler
        > plate documents" does NOT match the reality of actual court and legal
        > procedings, you SUDDENLY changed the SUBJECT of discussion to
        "books"
        > from a book store.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> What has that have to do with "boiler plate documents"?
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> A typical tactic of 'completely' changing the SUBJECT when
        you
        > are aware that the facts you are presenting are incorrect!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Go have a beer!! :>)
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Eric...
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Maybe were not on the same page here so I'm going to try
        this
        > one last time before I go and have a beer....
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you go to the bookstore and buy a book.... you may not
        make
        > copies of that book and sell them (even though you own the book)...
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> If you go to a garage sale and buy a book....you may not make
        > copies of that book and sell them (even though you own the book)
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> If the author of the book knocks on your door, says hello and
        > hands you a free copy of his book....you may not make copies of that book
        and
        > sell them (even though you own the book)
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Did the lightbulb go on ???
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 3:50 PM
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> I am not confused.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you buy the lease, bill of sale, or will from the
        stationary
        > store and then fill them out and register it with the city, county, and/or
        state
        > they become YOUR legal document. If there is a mistake on the original
        document,
        > it is YOUR mistake "not" the mistake of the original writer of
        the
        > document!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you enter into the contract and sign the document you ARE
        > selling the document to the other party as part of the over all deal!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> I have leased many of my apartments over the years and had to
        go
        > to eviction court a couple of times and the judge has always told me that
        the
        > document belongs to me as MY legal document when the tenant tries to get
        out of
        > clauses of the lease.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> You can charge the leasee legal fees for document preparation
        way
        > over your original cost of the document and part of the original price of
        the
        > agreement as long as you itemize your charges.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Any added part to the document {special clauses} that you add
        to
        > the document, lease or bill-of-sale, makes the document as far as the
        courts are
        > concerned a whole new legal document that is DIFFERENT from the original
        form
        > that you purchased!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> These rulings may differ according to what city, county, or
        state
        > in which you reside!!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> You may buy a license to use those boiler plates (which is
        > really what you are doing) but you may NOT copy them and include them in
        works
        > that you are selling. Look at the real tiny writing Eric. Bet it says
        copyright
        > somewhere. Your confusion is becoming epic....
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 2:38 PM
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> Believe it or not --> a great many contracts and legal
        > documents are boiler plate documents --> that is to say general form
        > documents published as legal forms guides and then modified by the user to
        fit
        > their needs!
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> A prime example are the Legal Wills you can buy in
        stationary
        > stores, software stores, or on the internet (www.legalzoom. com) and
        insert
        > & delete the items that apply to you to make up your legal document.
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> I understand that is done all the time in the legal world.
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> ---> All the author has to do is copy the legalese
        that
        > accompanies all the downloaded software and attach it to their software as
        a
        > document and that will solve all these questions or stop all this legal
        > wrangling! Cutting as pasting is very easy thing to do now days!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> wouldn't that be....oh I don't know......maybe
        a
        > copyright violation :-)
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 1:58 PM
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Tom;
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> My daughter-in- law, the lawyer, tells me that if it
        is
        > NOT specificly written down then their is NO implied other uses to the
        program.
        > There has to be a *written* contract to stand up in court.
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Ther is an old legal saying: "An oral contract
        > isn't worth the paper it is written on!"
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> If you don't have it in writing then you will have
        a
        > very, very weak case if you ever wind up in court.
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> All the author has to do is copy the legalese that
        > accompanies all the downloaded software and attach it to their software as
        a
        > document and that will solve all these questions or stop all this legal
        > wrangling! Cutting as pasting is very easy thing to do now days!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Eric
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, "Tom"
        wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Eric, you are right and wrong. A person can
        distribute
        > a shareware program
        >>>
        >>>>>>> if NOT explicitly stated to the contrary. There
        can
        > also be a charge for the
        >>>
        >>>>>>> diskette or CD itself and shipping costs, but no
        more.
        > You CANNOT copy and
        >>>
        >>>>>>> sell it for a profit, period.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> _____
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com [mailto:ti99-
        > 4a@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 9:31 AM
        >>>
        >>>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> The author MUST specicly state [IN WRITING] that
        when
        > he or she is allowing
        >>>
        >>>>>>> the program to be copied that it is being released
        as
        > "Freeware" or
        >>>
        >>>>>>> "Shareware" and that he or she retains
        > 'ALL RIGHTS' to the program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> If there is no such written statement then the
        program
        > is NOT "Freeware" or
        >>>
        >>>>>>> "Shareware".
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> They CANNOT hint at implied rights later if the
        > didn't protect their rights
        >>>
        >>>>>>> [IN A WRITTEN STATEMENT] at the time they allowed
        > their program to be
        >>>
        >>>>>>> copied!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> The author still RETAINS the "Copyright"
        > rights!!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> * If you read all those {I Accept} statements we
        check
        > when downloading
        >>>
        >>>>>>> software, EVERYTHING is "WRITTEN" out in
        > great detail. There must be a
        >>>
        >>>>>>> reason their lawyers insist upon such statements
        > accompany the release of
        >>>
        >>>>>>> their software.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> ** I am sure the author of [Neverland] did not
        have
        > such an accompaning
        >>>
        >>>>>>> statement with the 'release' of the
        program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, "Tom"
        >>>
        >>>>>>> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Where did you ever come up with that
        definition of
        > public domain? To
        >>>
        >>>>>>> release
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> a product to the public domain is something
        the
        > author must do. Shareware,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Fairware (or whatever you want to cal it) is
        > available for downloads
        >>>
        >>>>>>> freely,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> and it is NOT public domain.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> _____
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>> [mailto:ti99- 4a@yahoogroups .com] On
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Behalf Of
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:04 AM
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> If the program (Neverland?) is available for
        > anyone, with the approval of
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> its author, to download off of a site
        available to
        > all comers, then it has
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> been released to the "Public
        Domain".
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Although it has been released by its author to
        the
        > "Public Domain", that
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> does NOT mean that the author has given up his
        or
        > hers "Copyright" rights
        >>>
        >>>>>>> to
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> If a third party copies the program
        (Neverland?)
        > from a site where anyone
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> may have access to it and transfers that
        program
        > (Neverland?) to an eprom
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> charging only for the service of transfering
        the
        > program (Neverland?) and
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the cost of the eprom --> then that third
        party
        > has NOT violated the
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> author's "Copyright" rights.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Here is where the whole thing gets tricky:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 1) Where did the third party get the copy of
        the
        > program (Neverland?) ?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 2) Did the third party charge excessive fees
        for
        > the service of transfer
        >>>
        >>>>>>> and
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the cost of the eprom?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 3) Did the author of the program specificly
        state
        > that the copiers of his
        >>>
        >>>>>>> or
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> her program was restricted to
        "SINGLE"
        > or "PERSONAL" use?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 4) Was the third party seller selling the
        eprom
        > with the program
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> (Neverland?) as a 'used' product or a
        > 'new' product?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> All these factors comes into play when dealing
        > with computer software!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Owen
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Brand wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Hmmm... I know you wear your heart on
        your
        > sleeve Nadav, but I would
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>advise against what could possibly be
        > construed as potentially
        >>>
        >>>>>>> libellous
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>comments on a public forum!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Just friendly advice! :-)
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Mark
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> I would have to agree with Mark. Not only
        are
        > your comments on this
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> matter libellous, but you have pretty much
        run
        > your course. We already
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> know how you feel about Kyle with your
        > "hatred with all your heart,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> soul, and mind." Where is there to go
        > from there???? Maybe you should
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> try WORKING UP to the "death to the
        > infidels" speech. =) So you HATE
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Kyle... whatever. This particular argument
        > pertains to a copyright
        >>>
        >>>>>>> issue.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Has he infringed on any of your
        copyrights?
        > Look, the issue here isn't
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> whether people LIKE kyleti994a. I happen
        to
        > like him just fine. The
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> issue is whether his selling Marc's
        game
        > in the current format was
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> reasonable.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> What's worse... a copyright
        > maverick/outlaw? Or a hate-monger?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Kyle's my friend... so SHUT
        IT...please.
        > You got issues with Kyle, fine.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Take them up with him. If not, then quit
        > banging your sword against
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> your shield. Marc is the only one in THIS
        > PARTICULAR circumstance
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> who has a legitimate beef, so let Marc and
        > Kyle work this thing out.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> In the meantime, SPEAK CONSTRUCTIVELY, NOT
        > DESTRUCTIVELY.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Owen
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have
        been
        > removed]
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
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        >>>>>>>>
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        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
        >> Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
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        > ------------------------------------
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        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
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        >
        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
        > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
        > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
        > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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        ------------------------------------

        For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
        Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
        Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
        Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links





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