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Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: Kyle Kritendon....

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  • Marc Hull
    ... right thing. That s a good first step. :)
    Message 1 of 80 , May 1, 2009
      ---> Well, Karl, if you took it down, I at least thank you for doing the

      right thing. That's a good first step. :) <---

      He did not exactly take it down Mike...He ended the auction early true but he still sold it (according to the results page.)  Guess he couldn't resist that pocketful of change that it brought him...

      This has certainly been an education for me.  I think I'll stick with cabinet making as there seem to be fewer issues and a much smaller grey area down the middle.

      Anyone who helped put some pressure on Kyle ...Thank you.




      --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Tursi <yahoogroup@...> wrote:
      From: Tursi <yahoogroup@...>
      Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: Kyle Kritendon....
      To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 10:39 PM

















      > Listing was just ended early. Guess he is lurking on the list and

      > could see it would not be allowed to run the entire 10 days. . The

      > link to VERO probably had him seeing the writing on the wall. A 10

      > day listing, he must have been expecting quite a payoff?

      >



      Well, Karl, if you took it down, I at least thank you for doing the

      right thing. That's a good first step. :)



      I have my own WIPs that I would like to release someday, without

      expecting to see them on EBay shortly afterwards. :)




























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marc Hull
      Nope... I m gonna try and keep my nose clean from now on. Congrats on the award Tim,  You owe us all a beer now ;-) ... From: Insane Multitasker
      Message 80 of 80 , May 2, 2009
        Nope... I'm gonna try and keep my nose clean from now on. Congrats on the award Tim,  You owe us all a beer now ;-)

        --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...> wrote:

        From: Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...>
        Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 9:37 PM

        You aren't trying to trump the copyright discussion
        by starting one on patents, are you? shame, shame...


        grin


        ----------------------------------------
        > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        > From: marc.hull@...
        > Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:22:51 -0700
        > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >
        > The TI easy back oven for nerds .........Brilliant !! If ya don't mind
        i'm gonna patent that idea
        >
        >
        > (Didn't say copyright I said patent...)
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Insane Multitasker wrote:
        >
        > From: Insane Multitasker
        > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 7:11 PM
        >
        > Darn it all, Marc, what will we do without endless banter about
        > copyright? We may all have to use our heads and approach this
        > with common sense!!
        >
        > Pizza sounds like a good idea. I can delete the last two days worth
        > of list server email whilst I wait for my TI power-supply powered oven
        > baking surface to heat up. It's not as quick as the Presto pizza
        > maker, but there is something mildly nostalgic about heating up your
        > slice of pizza pit atop a nice, warm transformer. Who needs teflon when
        > you have the nice, shiny metallic surface!
        >
        >
        >
        > (had to be sure to keep this on topic)
        >
        > tim
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------
        >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        >> From: marc.hull@...
        >> Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:22:16 -0700
        >> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >>
        >> No Eric...... What you said was to cut the legal disclaimer from a
        > document and paste it in your document. That is a copyright violation
        unless the
        > copyright holder has given you permission to do so.
        >>
        >> Now I really have to quit. this is seriously giving me a headach and
        > cutting into my beer time. Good night Eric....
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>
        >> From: Eric Bray
        >> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon....
        >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
        >> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 5:52 PM
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> You are incorrect!
        >>
        >> Go back and reread the thread --> it was about the author making
        sure
        > all of his or her rights were protected by making sure that they wrote
        them down
        > for all to see; I suggested that they "boiler plate" the legal
        > documents and include them as part of the software.
        >>
        >> Then someone made the remark that "boiler plating" legal
        > documents wasn't right and I said that that is done all the time in
        the
        > legal world and any charge for that document is not limited to just the
        cost of
        > that "boiler plate document" if the author wishes to charge more
        for
        > preparation of said document to protect his or her rights!
        >>
        >> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>> WOW.... I was just trying to break it down and un complicate it a
        bit
        > but since that confused you more I'll go back to the will example....
        >>>
        >>> If you buy a premade will you indeed do own that particular piece
        of
        > paper and the copyright owner has granted you a license to use that piece
        of
        > paper in your activities BUT (and this is the important part) Just because
        you
        > "OWN" that particular piece of paper does NOT mean that you
        bought the
        > rights to duplicate and sell that document. That right is reserved for the
        > copyright holder.
        >>>
        >>> Maybe you should have a beer as well.....
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>> From: Eric Bray
        >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 4:46 PM
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Don't change the SUBJECT we were discussing!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> The discussion was about "boiler plate documents"!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> You said:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>>>You may buy a license to use those boiler plates (which is
        > really
        >>>
        >>>>>what you are doing) but you may NOT copy them and include
        them
        > in
        >>>
        >>>>>works that you are selling. Look at the real tiny writing
        Eric.
        >>>
        >>>>>Bet it says copyright somewhere.
        >>>
        >>>>>Your confusion is becoming>epic....
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> When I informed you that your ideas and thoughts about
        "boiler
        > plate documents" does NOT match the reality of actual court and legal
        > procedings, you SUDDENLY changed the SUBJECT of discussion to
        "books"
        > from a book store.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> What has that have to do with "boiler plate documents"?
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> A typical tactic of 'completely' changing the SUBJECT when
        you
        > are aware that the facts you are presenting are incorrect!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Go have a beer!! :>)
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Eric...
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Maybe were not on the same page here so I'm going to try
        this
        > one last time before I go and have a beer....
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you go to the bookstore and buy a book.... you may not
        make
        > copies of that book and sell them (even though you own the book)...
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> If you go to a garage sale and buy a book....you may not make
        > copies of that book and sell them (even though you own the book)
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> If the author of the book knocks on your door, says hello and
        > hands you a free copy of his book....you may not make copies of that book
        and
        > sell them (even though you own the book)
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Did the lightbulb go on ???
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 3:50 PM
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> I am not confused.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you buy the lease, bill of sale, or will from the
        stationary
        > store and then fill them out and register it with the city, county, and/or
        state
        > they become YOUR legal document. If there is a mistake on the original
        document,
        > it is YOUR mistake "not" the mistake of the original writer of
        the
        > document!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> When you enter into the contract and sign the document you ARE
        > selling the document to the other party as part of the over all deal!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> I have leased many of my apartments over the years and had to
        go
        > to eviction court a couple of times and the judge has always told me that
        the
        > document belongs to me as MY legal document when the tenant tries to get
        out of
        > clauses of the lease.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> You can charge the leasee legal fees for document preparation
        way
        > over your original cost of the document and part of the original price of
        the
        > agreement as long as you itemize your charges.
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> Any added part to the document {special clauses} that you add
        to
        > the document, lease or bill-of-sale, makes the document as far as the
        courts are
        > concerned a whole new legal document that is DIFFERENT from the original
        form
        > that you purchased!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> These rulings may differ according to what city, county, or
        state
        > in which you reside!!
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> You may buy a license to use those boiler plates (which is
        > really what you are doing) but you may NOT copy them and include them in
        works
        > that you are selling. Look at the real tiny writing Eric. Bet it says
        copyright
        > somewhere. Your confusion is becoming epic....
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 2:38 PM
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> Believe it or not --> a great many contracts and legal
        > documents are boiler plate documents --> that is to say general form
        > documents published as legal forms guides and then modified by the user to
        fit
        > their needs!
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> A prime example are the Legal Wills you can buy in
        stationary
        > stores, software stores, or on the internet (www.legalzoom. com) and
        insert
        > & delete the items that apply to you to make up your legal document.
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> I understand that is done all the time in the legal world.
        >>>
        >>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Marc Hull wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> ---> All the author has to do is copy the legalese
        that
        > accompanies all the downloaded software and attach it to their software as
        a
        > document and that will solve all these questions or stop all this legal
        > wrangling! Cutting as pasting is very easy thing to do now days!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> wouldn't that be....oh I don't know......maybe
        a
        > copyright violation :-)
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> --- On Sat, 5/2/09, Eric Bray wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> From: Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>> Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 1:58 PM
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Tom;
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> My daughter-in- law, the lawyer, tells me that if it
        is
        > NOT specificly written down then their is NO implied other uses to the
        program.
        > There has to be a *written* contract to stand up in court.
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Ther is an old legal saying: "An oral contract
        > isn't worth the paper it is written on!"
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> If you don't have it in writing then you will have
        a
        > very, very weak case if you ever wind up in court.
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> All the author has to do is copy the legalese that
        > accompanies all the downloaded software and attach it to their software as
        a
        > document and that will solve all these questions or stop all this legal
        > wrangling! Cutting as pasting is very easy thing to do now days!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> Eric
        >>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, "Tom"
        wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Eric, you are right and wrong. A person can
        distribute
        > a shareware program
        >>>
        >>>>>>> if NOT explicitly stated to the contrary. There
        can
        > also be a charge for the
        >>>
        >>>>>>> diskette or CD itself and shipping costs, but no
        more.
        > You CANNOT copy and
        >>>
        >>>>>>> sell it for a profit, period.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> _____
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com [mailto:ti99-
        > 4a@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 9:31 AM
        >>>
        >>>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> The author MUST specicly state [IN WRITING] that
        when
        > he or she is allowing
        >>>
        >>>>>>> the program to be copied that it is being released
        as
        > "Freeware" or
        >>>
        >>>>>>> "Shareware" and that he or she retains
        > 'ALL RIGHTS' to the program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> If there is no such written statement then the
        program
        > is NOT "Freeware" or
        >>>
        >>>>>>> "Shareware".
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> They CANNOT hint at implied rights later if the
        > didn't protect their rights
        >>>
        >>>>>>> [IN A WRITTEN STATEMENT] at the time they allowed
        > their program to be
        >>>
        >>>>>>> copied!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> The author still RETAINS the "Copyright"
        > rights!!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> * If you read all those {I Accept} statements we
        check
        > when downloading
        >>>
        >>>>>>> software, EVERYTHING is "WRITTEN" out in
        > great detail. There must be a
        >>>
        >>>>>>> reason their lawyers insist upon such statements
        > accompany the release of
        >>>
        >>>>>>> their software.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> ** I am sure the author of [Neverland] did not
        have
        > such an accompaning
        >>>
        >>>>>>> statement with the 'release' of the
        program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, "Tom"
        >>>
        >>>>>>> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Where did you ever come up with that
        definition of
        > public domain? To
        >>>
        >>>>>>> release
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> a product to the public domain is something
        the
        > author must do. Shareware,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Fairware (or whatever you want to cal it) is
        > available for downloads
        >>>
        >>>>>>> freely,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> and it is NOT public domain.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> _____
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>> [mailto:ti99- 4a@yahoogroups .com] On
        >>>
        >>>>>>> Behalf Of
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Eric Bray
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:04 AM
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Kyle Kritendon... .
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> If the program (Neverland?) is available for
        > anyone, with the approval of
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> its author, to download off of a site
        available to
        > all comers, then it has
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> been released to the "Public
        Domain".
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Although it has been released by its author to
        the
        > "Public Domain", that
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> does NOT mean that the author has given up his
        or
        > hers "Copyright" rights
        >>>
        >>>>>>> to
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the program.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> If a third party copies the program
        (Neverland?)
        > from a site where anyone
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> may have access to it and transfers that
        program
        > (Neverland?) to an eprom
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> charging only for the service of transfering
        the
        > program (Neverland?) and
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the cost of the eprom --> then that third
        party
        > has NOT violated the
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> author's "Copyright" rights.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Here is where the whole thing gets tricky:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 1) Where did the third party get the copy of
        the
        > program (Neverland?) ?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 2) Did the third party charge excessive fees
        for
        > the service of transfer
        >>>
        >>>>>>> and
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> the cost of the eprom?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 3) Did the author of the program specificly
        state
        > that the copiers of his
        >>>
        >>>>>>> or
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> her program was restricted to
        "SINGLE"
        > or "PERSONAL" use?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> 4) Was the third party seller selling the
        eprom
        > with the program
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> (Neverland?) as a 'used' product or a
        > 'new' product?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> All these factors comes into play when dealing
        > with computer software!!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com, Owen
        >>>
        >>>>>>>> Brand wrote:
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Hmmm... I know you wear your heart on
        your
        > sleeve Nadav, but I would
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>advise against what could possibly be
        > construed as potentially
        >>>
        >>>>>>> libellous
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>comments on a public forum!
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Just friendly advice! :-)
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>>Mark
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> I would have to agree with Mark. Not only
        are
        > your comments on this
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> matter libellous, but you have pretty much
        run
        > your course. We already
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> know how you feel about Kyle with your
        > "hatred with all your heart,
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> soul, and mind." Where is there to go
        > from there???? Maybe you should
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> try WORKING UP to the "death to the
        > infidels" speech. =) So you HATE
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Kyle... whatever. This particular argument
        > pertains to a copyright
        >>>
        >>>>>>> issue.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Has he infringed on any of your
        copyrights?
        > Look, the issue here isn't
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> whether people LIKE kyleti994a. I happen
        to
        > like him just fine. The
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> issue is whether his selling Marc's
        game
        > in the current format was
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> reasonable.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> What's worse... a copyright
        > maverick/outlaw? Or a hate-monger?
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Kyle's my friend... so SHUT
        IT...please.
        > You got issues with Kyle, fine.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Take them up with him. If not, then quit
        > banging your sword against
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> your shield. Marc is the only one in THIS
        > PARTICULAR circumstance
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> who has a legitimate beef, so let Marc and
        > Kyle work this thing out.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> In the meantime, SPEAK CONSTRUCTIVELY, NOT
        > DESTRUCTIVELY.
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> Owen
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have
        been
        > removed]
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>
        >>>>>>>>
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        >>>>>>>>
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        >>>>>>>>
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        >>>>>>
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        >>>>>>
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        >>>>>>
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        >>>>>>
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        >>
        >>
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        >> For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
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        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
        > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
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        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
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        ------------------------------------

        For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
        Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
        Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
        Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links





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