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Re: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000

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  • Paolo Bagnaresi
    It s ok, Bill. I think I can manage. The list was also a way to let the community know what is going on on the OmniFlop side. ... From: FDOS
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1 4:50 AM
      It's ok, Bill.
      I think I can manage. The list was also a way to let the community know what is going on on the OmniFlop side.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "FDOS" <fdosbrs@...>
      To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:35 PM
      Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000


      > Paolo,
      >
      > I would like very much to help you, but not only do I not have time
      > right now, I also don't have the expertise in this area. I only know
      > the basics of the different diskette capacities.
      >
      > Bill S
      >
      > Paolo Bagnaresi wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >> On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
      >> to the TI...,
      >> I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
      >> of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
      >> (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
      >> <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>).
      >>
      >> This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
      >> Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista. While
      >> TI99-PC is effective under Windows 95, 98, 98SE and Me, the NT
      >> architecture set by Microsoft on Win 2000, XP and Vista prevents any
      >> "direct talking" to the PC hardware to third party code that does not
      >> belong to the OS. OmniFlop can do it, though. It does it by replacing
      >> the MS floppy driver.
      >>
      >> At the moment, OmniFlop is TI unaware. So, there are restrictions as to
      >> reading and writing a TI floppy disk too. It is somewhat limited to
      >> single side disks, but I am still experimenting with it, so I might come
      >> up with a solution.
      >>
      >> Also, I have been unable to format a TI disk up to now.
      >>
      >> For the above reasons I wrote to Jason Watton, the OmniFlop's author.
      >>
      >> He's very interested and kind. I am now to provide him with all the
      >> basic parameters related to the TI floppy disk structure and formats.
      >>
      >> I prepared a table for him. Unfortunately, the full table gets distorted
      >> when viewed on an e-mail message. Those who would like to see it would
      >> please write me to my private address. Below is a short version of it.
      >> Please see if there are mistaks in it or I happened to leave out
      >> something important. Thus, I will be able to correct it, before sending
      >> it to Jason Watton.
      >>
      >> Thank you.
      >>
      >> ----------------------------------------------------------
      >>
      >> TI-99/4A Floppy Disk Formats
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | | |Fmtted| Disk |Den |Total |Sctrs |Total|Total|
      >> | #| | as |Capacity|sity|Sectors|/Track|Trks |Sides|
      >> | | | | (KB) | | | | | |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 1|40/1/9x256 |SS/SD | 90 |Sngl| 360 | 9 | 40 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 2|40/2/9x256 |DS/SD | 180 |Sngl| 720 | 9 | 40 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 3|40/1/18x256 |SS/DD | 180 |Dbl | 720 | 18 | 40 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 4|40/2/18x256 |DS/DD | 360 |Dbl | 1440 | 18 | 40 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 5|40/1/36x256 |SS/HD | 360 |High| 1440 | 36 | 40 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 6|40/2/36x256 |DS/HD | 720 |High| 2880 | 36 | 40 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 7|80/1/9x256 |SS/SD | 180 |Sngl| 720 | 9 | 80 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 8|80/2/9x256 |DS/SD | 360 |Sngl| 1440 | 9 | 80 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> | 9|80/1/18x256 |SS/DD | 360 |Dbl | 1440 | 18 | 80 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> |10|80/2/18x256 |DS/DD | 720 |Dbl | 2880 | 18 | 80 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> |11|80/1/36x256 |SS/HD | 720 |High| 2880 | 36 | 80 | 1 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >> |12|80/2/36x256 |DS/HD | 1440 |High| 5760 | 36 | 80 | 2 |
      >> +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
      >>
      >> Double Step should be user selectable on all the 40 track/disk.
      >>
      >> Sectors are always 256 bytes long.
      >>
      >> Transfer Rate: - 250 kbps on 3.5" and 360KB 5.25" drives.
      >> - 300 kbps on 1.2M 5.25" drives.
      >> - 500 kbps on 1.44M 3.5" floppies.
      >>
      >> GAP#3 length: 20 bytes
      >>
      >> Popular formats: #1 [40/1/9x256 (TI-99/4A SS/SD) 90 KB]
      >> #2 [40/2/9x256 (TI-99/4A DS/SD) 180 KB]
      >> #4 [40/2/18x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) 360 KB]
      >>
      >>
      >
    • Paolo Bagnaresi
      Hi Jeff, thank you for your help. Your note has been sent to Jason Watton. Indeed, my first attempt at explaining how sectors are places inside a double side
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1 5:51 AM
        Hi Jeff,

        thank you for your help. Your note has been sent to Jason Watton.

        Indeed, my first attempt at explaining how sectors are places inside a double side TI disk were not very successful.

        Paolo

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jeff White" <jhwhite@...>
        To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:42 AM
        Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000


        > An important note to send along is how the TI handles the 2nd side of a
        > floppy disk. The first half of the sectors are written from the outer track
        > (track 0) inward on side 1, and the last half of the sectors are written
        > from the inner track (track 40/80) outward on side 2. This is unlike the
        > standard PC floppies, which alternate sides of the disk as the data is
        > written (when formatted double sided).
        >
        > The disk files used by the emulators/simulators need not worry about the
        > physical layout. The advantage the TI has is that the first half of a DSSD
        > can be read by a single-sided drive. The advantage the PC has is that the
        > heads do not need to step across as many tracks (on average) to read a file.
        >
        > Jeff White
        > jhwhite@...
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@...>
        > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:41 AM
        > Subject: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk
        > under Windows XP, Vista, 2000
        >
        >
        >> On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
        >> to the TI...,
        >> I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
        >> of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
        >> (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm).
        > <snip>
        >
        >
      • Ksarul
        Paolo, just to be complete, the table should also include the 40/1/16x256, etc, all the way to 80/2/16x256. That way we cover every possible format from every
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 2 4:23 AM
          Paolo, just to be complete, the table should also include the 40/1/16x256,
          etc, all the way to 80/2/16x256. That way we cover every possible format
          from every possible TI controller (the TI DSDD and Myarc controllers will
          format 16 sectors per track--and the TI DSDD controller can't format 18
          sectors at all).

          Jim Fetzner

          -----Original Message-----
          From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Paolo Bagnaresi
          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42 AM
          To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk
          under Windows XP, Vista, 2000

          On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
          to the TI...,
          I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
          of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
          (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm).

          This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
          Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista. While
          TI99-PC is effective under Windows 95, 98, 98SE and Me, the NT
          architecture set by Microsoft on Win 2000, XP and Vista prevents any
          "direct talking" to the PC hardware to third party code that does not
          belong to the OS. OmniFlop can do it, though. It does it by replacing
          the MS floppy driver.

          At the moment, OmniFlop is TI unaware. So, there are restrictions as to
          reading and writing a TI floppy disk too. It is somewhat limited to
          single side disks, but I am still experimenting with it, so I might come
          up with a solution.

          Also, I have been unable to format a TI disk up to now.

          For the above reasons I wrote to Jason Watton, the OmniFlop's author.

          He's very interested and kind. I am now to provide him with all the
          basic parameters related to the TI floppy disk structure and formats.

          I prepared a table for him. Unfortunately, the full table gets distorted
          when viewed on an e-mail message. Those who would like to see it would
          please write me to my private address. Below is a short version of it.
          Please see if there are mistaks in it or I happened to leave out
          something important. Thus, I will be able to correct it, before sending
          it to Jason Watton.

          Thank you.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          TI-99/4A Floppy Disk Formats
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | | |Fmtted| Disk |Den |Total |Sctrs |Total|Total|
          | #| | as |Capacity|sity|Sectors|/Track|Trks |Sides|
          | | | | (KB) | | | | | |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 1|40/1/9x256 |SS/SD | 90 |Sngl| 360 | 9 | 40 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 2|40/2/9x256 |DS/SD | 180 |Sngl| 720 | 9 | 40 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 3|40/1/18x256 |SS/DD | 180 |Dbl | 720 | 18 | 40 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 4|40/2/18x256 |DS/DD | 360 |Dbl | 1440 | 18 | 40 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 5|40/1/36x256 |SS/HD | 360 |High| 1440 | 36 | 40 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 6|40/2/36x256 |DS/HD | 720 |High| 2880 | 36 | 40 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 7|80/1/9x256 |SS/SD | 180 |Sngl| 720 | 9 | 80 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 8|80/2/9x256 |DS/SD | 360 |Sngl| 1440 | 9 | 80 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          | 9|80/1/18x256 |SS/DD | 360 |Dbl | 1440 | 18 | 80 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          |10|80/2/18x256 |DS/DD | 720 |Dbl | 2880 | 18 | 80 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          |11|80/1/36x256 |SS/HD | 720 |High| 2880 | 36 | 80 | 1 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+
          |12|80/2/36x256 |DS/HD | 1440 |High| 5760 | 36 | 80 | 2 |
          +--+------------+------+--------+----+-------+------+-----+-----+

          Double Step should be user selectable on all the 40 track/disk.

          Sectors are always 256 bytes long.

          Transfer Rate: - 250 kbps on 3.5" and 360KB 5.25" drives.
          - 300 kbps on 1.2M 5.25" drives.
          - 500 kbps on 1.44M 3.5" floppies.

          GAP#3 length: 20 bytes

          Popular formats: #1 [40/1/9x256 (TI-99/4A SS/SD) 90 KB]
          #2 [40/2/9x256 (TI-99/4A DS/SD) 180 KB]
          #4 [40/2/18x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) 360 KB]



          ------------------------------------

          For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
          Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
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        • Matthew Hagerty
          ... I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives work at
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 2 7:47 AM
            --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:
            >
            > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
            > to the TI...,
            > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
            > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
            > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm).
            >
            > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
            > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.

            I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern (since the late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD and DSHD formats.

            I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI floppies though. :-)

            Please correct me where I'm wrong.

            Matthew
          • Paolo Bagnaresi
            Yes, siree! Please find below the updated table. The 16 sector formats are from #13 through #16. Let s hope Jason Watton won t get scared of this list. It s
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 2 9:13 AM
              Yes, siree! Please find below the updated table. The 16 sector formats are from #13 through #16.
              Let's hope Jason Watton won't get scared of this list. It's getting huge :-)

              Thank you, Jim.

              Paolo

              TI-99/4A Floppy Disk Formats (Updated March 2, 2009)
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | | |Fmtted| Disk |Dnsity|Total |Sctrs |Total|Total|
              | #| SHORT DESCRIPTION | as |Capacity| |Sectors|/Track|Trks |Sides|
              | | | | (KB) | | | | | |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 1|40/1/9x256 (TI-99/4A SS/SD) |SS/SD | 90 |Single| 360 | 9 | 40 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 2|40/2/9x256 (TI-99/4A DS/SD) |DS/SD | 180 |Single| 720 | 9 | 40 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 3|40/1/18x256 (TI-99/4A SS/DD) |SS/DD | 180 |Double| 720 | 18 | 40 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 4|40/2/18x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) |DS/DD | 360 |Double| 1440 | 18 | 40 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 5|40/1/36x256 (TI-99/4A SS/HD) |SS/HD | 360 |High | 1440 | 36 | 40 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 6|40/2/36x256 (TI-99/4A DS/HD) |DS/HD | 720 |High | 2880 | 36 | 40 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 7|80/1/9x256 (TI-99/4A SS/SD) |SS/SD | 180 |Single| 720 | 9 | 80 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 8|80/2/9x256 (TI-99/4A DS/SD) |DS/SD | 360 |Single| 1440 | 9 | 80 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              | 9|80/1/18x256 (TI-99/4A SS/DD) |SS/DD | 360 |Double| 1440 | 18 | 80 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |10|80/2/18x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) |DS/DD | 720 |Double| 2880 | 18 | 80 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |11|80/1/36x256 (TI-99/4A SS/HD) |SS/HD | 720 |High | 2880 | 36 | 80 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |12|80/2/36x256 (TI-99/4A DS/HD) |DS/HD | 1440 |High | 5760 | 36 | 80 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |13|40/1/16x256 (TI-99/4A SS/DD) |SS/DD | 160 |Double| 640 | 16 | 40 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |14|40/2/16x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) |DS/DD | 320 |Double| 1280 | 16 | 40 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |15|80/1/16x256 (TI-99/4A SS/DD) |SS/DD | 320 |Double| 1280 | 18 | 80 | 1 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+
              |16|80/2/16x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) |DS/DD | 640 |Double| 2560 | 18 | 80 | 2 |
              +--+-----------------------------+------+--------+------+-------+------+-----+-----+



              Double Step should be user selectable on all the 40 track/disk.

              Transfer Rate: - 250 kbps on 3.5" and 360KB 5.25" drives.
              - 300 kbps on 1.2M 5.25" drives.
              - 500 kbps on 1.44M 3.5" floppies.

              GAP#3 length: 20 bytes

              Popular formats: #1 [40/1/9x256 (TI-99/4A SS/SD) 90 KB]
              #2 [40/2/9x256 (TI-99/4A DS/SD) 180 KB]
              #4 [40/2/18x256 (TI-99/4A DS/DD) 360 KB]

              Sector layout: where logical sectors go
              (by Jeff White, jhwhite@...)
              =======================================
              The first half of the sectors are written from the outer track
              (track 0) inward on side 1, and the last half of the sectors are written
              from the inner track (track 40/80) outward on side 2. This is unlike the
              standard PC floppies, which alternate sides of the disk as the data is
              written (when formatted double sided).

              The disk files used by the emulators/simulators need not worry about the
              physical layout. The advantage the TI has is that the first half of a DSSD
              can be read by a single-sided drive. The advantage the PC has is that the
              heads do not need to step across as many tracks (on average) to read a file.









              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ksarul" <vze23g4a@...>
              To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:23 PM
              Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000


              > Paolo, just to be complete, the table should also include the 40/1/16x256,
              > etc, all the way to 80/2/16x256. That way we cover every possible format
              > from every possible TI controller (the TI DSDD and Myarc controllers will
              > format 16 sectors per track--and the TI DSDD controller can't format 18
              > sectors at all).
              >
              > Jim Fetzner
              >
            • FDOS
              Matthew, The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25 floppy disk drives. All 3.5 floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do 5.25
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 2 9:45 AM
                Matthew,

                The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disk drives.
                All 3.5" floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do
                5.25" drives of DSDD or lower capacities.

                Bill S

                Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                >
                >
                > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
                > > to the TI...,
                > > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
                > > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
                > > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>).
                > >
                > > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
                > > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.
                >
                > I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was
                > the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives
                > work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern (since the
                > late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD and
                > DSHD formats.
                >
                > I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock
                > controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI
                > floppies though. :-)
                >
                > Please correct me where I'm wrong.
                >
                > Matthew
                >
                >
              • Matthew Hagerty
                Thanks Bill, that s good to know! So what does a 1.2MB 5.25 drive do when reading / writing a 360K DSDD disk? Are they dual speed? Matthew
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 2 10:25 AM
                  Thanks Bill, that's good to know! So what does a 1.2MB 5.25" drive do when reading / writing a 360K DSDD disk? Are they dual speed?

                  Matthew

                  --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, FDOS <fdosbrs@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Matthew,
                  >
                  > The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disk drives.
                  > All 3.5" floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do
                  > 5.25" drives of DSDD or lower capacities.
                  >
                  > Bill S
                  >
                  > Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
                  > > > to the TI...,
                  > > > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
                  > > > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
                  > > > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                  > > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>).
                  > > >
                  > > > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
                  > > > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.
                  > >
                  > > I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was
                  > > the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives
                  > > work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern (since the
                  > > late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD and
                  > > DSHD formats.
                  > >
                  > > I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock
                  > > controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI
                  > > floppies though. :-)
                  > >
                  > > Please correct me where I'm wrong.
                  > >
                  > > Matthew
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • FDOS
                  Yes, they are dual speed, both 300RPM/360RPM. Bill S
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 2 10:47 AM
                    Yes, they are dual speed, both 300RPM/360RPM.

                    Bill S

                    Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks Bill, that's good to know! So what does a 1.2MB 5.25" drive do
                    > when reading / writing a 360K DSDD disk? Are they dual speed?
                    >
                    > Matthew
                    >
                    > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>, FDOS
                    > <fdosbrs@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Matthew,
                    > >
                    > > The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disk drives.
                    > > All 3.5" floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do
                    > > 5.25" drives of DSDD or lower capacities.
                    > >
                    > > Bill S
                    > >
                    > > Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on
                    > tranferring files
                    > > > > to the TI...,
                    > > > > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason
                    > Watton
                    > > > > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
                    > > > > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                    > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>
                    > > > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                    > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>>).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format
                    > a non
                    > > > > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.
                    > > >
                    > > > I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI
                    > floppies was
                    > > > the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD
                    > drives
                    > > > work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern
                    > (since the
                    > > > late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD
                    > and
                    > > > DSHD formats.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock
                    > > > controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI
                    > > > floppies though. :-)
                    > > >
                    > > > Please correct me where I'm wrong.
                    > > >
                    > > > Matthew
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • Paolo Bagnaresi
                    Further, try dividing 360 by 300 and 300 by 250. You ll get the same value. What does it mean? It means that in a 5.25 drive rotating at 360 rpm with a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 2 11:50 AM
                      Further, try dividing 360 by 300 and 300 by 250. You'll get the same value. What does it mean?
                      It means that in a 5.25" drive rotating at 360 rpm with a transfer rate of 300 kbps encodes the data at the same interval of a 5.25"
                      drive rotating at 300 rpm with a transfer rate of 250 kbps.
                      That is 360/300=300/250.

                      All this boils down to the fact that the two written disks will be equal. They can be used in both drives with no difference.

                      Why the 360rpm speed then? A gimmick, just to have an identical disk in a shorter time.

                      Paolo



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "FDOS" <fdosbrs@...>
                      To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:45 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000


                      > Matthew,
                      >
                      > The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disk drives.
                      > All 3.5" floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do
                      > 5.25" drives of DSDD or lower capacities.
                      >
                      > Bill S
                      >
                      > Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      >> "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring files
                      >> > to the TI...,
                      >> > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
                      >> > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
                      >> > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                      >> <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>).
                      >> >
                      >> > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format a non
                      >> > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.
                      >>
                      >> I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was
                      >> the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives
                      >> work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern (since the
                      >> late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD and
                      >> DSHD formats.
                      >>
                      >> I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock
                      >> controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI
                      >> floppies though. :-)
                      >>
                      >> Please correct me where I'm wrong.
                      >>
                      >> Matthew
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                    • FDOS
                      Paolo, That being the case, it begs the question, if we can put 720K on a DSDD diskette, either 3.5 or 5.25 at 300RPM and 1.44MB on a DSHD of 3.5 at 300RPM
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 2 12:20 PM
                        Paolo,

                        That being the case, it begs the question, if we can put 720K on a DSDD
                        diskette, either 3.5" or 5.25" at 300RPM and 1.44MB on a DSHD of 3.5" at
                        300RPM why weren't they (IBM or other PC mfg.) able to put 1.44MB on
                        DSHD 5.25" diskette at 360RPM or 300RPM for that matter?

                        Bill S

                        Paolo Bagnaresi wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Further, try dividing 360 by 300 and 300 by 250. You'll get the same
                        > value. What does it mean?
                        > It means that in a 5.25" drive rotating at 360 rpm with a transfer rate
                        > of 300 kbps encodes the data at the same interval of a 5.25"
                        > drive rotating at 300 rpm with a transfer rate of 250 kbps.
                        > That is 360/300=300/250.
                        >
                        > All this boils down to the fact that the two written disks will be
                        > equal. They can be used in both drives with no difference.
                        >
                        > Why the 360rpm speed then? A gimmick, just to have an identical disk in
                        > a shorter time.
                        >
                        > Paolo
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "FDOS" <fdosbrs@... <mailto:fdosbrs%40frontiernet.net>>
                        > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:45 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a
                        > TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000
                        >
                        > > Matthew,
                        > >
                        > > The 360RPM speed is only applicable to 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disk drives.
                        > > All 3.5" floppy drives (low density/high density) spin at 300RPM, as do
                        > > 5.25" drives of DSDD or lower capacities.
                        > >
                        > > Bill S
                        > >
                        > > Matthew Hagerty wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > >> "Paolo Bagnaresi" <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:
                        > >> >
                        > >> > On my last message of March 30, 2009, Re: questions on tranferring
                        > files
                        > >> > to the TI...,
                        > >> > I mentioned how I was impressed by OmniFlop, a program by Jason Watton
                        > >> > of of Sherlock Consulting Limited
                        > >> > (http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                        > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>
                        > >> <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
                        > <http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm>>).
                        > >> >
                        > >> > This program solves an old problem: how to read, write and format
                        > a non
                        > >> > Microsoft/IBM floppy disk on a PC with Windows 2000, XP and Vista.
                        > >>
                        > >> I thought the fundamental problem with reading / writing TI floppies was
                        > >> the physical disk rotation speed. The TI disk controller and SSSD drives
                        > >> work at 300RPM which you simply can't get anymore. All modern (since the
                        > >> late 80's) controllers and drives run at 360RPM to support the DSDD and
                        > >> DSHD formats.
                        > >>
                        > >> I don't think you will ever read a TI SSSD on a modern PC with a stock
                        > >> controller and standard 5.25" drive. I have a PC-XT that can read TI
                        > >> floppies though. :-)
                        > >>
                        > >> Please correct me where I'm wrong.
                        > >>
                        > >> Matthew
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Gregg Eshelman
                        ... 35 track drives/disks too? I know the TI DSSD controller will work with 35 track drives.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 2 8:40 PM
                          --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Ksarul <vze23g4a@...> wrote:

                          > From: Ksarul <vze23g4a@...>
                          > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000
                          > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 4:23 AM
                          > Paolo, just to be complete, the table should also include
                          > the 40/1/16x256,
                          > etc, all the way to 80/2/16x256. That way we cover every
                          > possible format
                          > from every possible TI controller (the TI DSDD and Myarc
                          > controllers will
                          > format 16 sectors per track--and the TI DSDD controller
                          > can't format 18 sectors at all).

                          35 track drives/disks too? I know the TI DSSD controller will work with 35 track drives.
                        • Gregg Eshelman
                          ... Now add all the 35 track formats. ;) The normal TI controller will work with 35 track drives, dunno about any 3rd party one or the TI DSDD prototypes.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 2 8:51 PM
                            --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Paolo Bagnaresi <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:

                            > From: Paolo Bagnaresi <paul.bagnaresi@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] OmniFlop - Reading, writing and formatting a TI disk under Windows XP, Vista, 2000
                            > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 9:13 AM
                            > Yes, siree! Please find below the updated table. The 16
                            > sector formats are from #13 through #16.
                            > Let's hope Jason Watton won't get scared of this
                            > list. It's getting huge :-)

                            Now add all the 35 track formats. ;) The normal TI controller will work with 35 track drives, dunno about any 3rd party one or the TI DSDD prototypes.
                          • Gregg Eshelman
                            ... It also gives a faster transfer speed for 1.2M disks. Controllers that support 2.88M drives can transfer up to 500K/second, which was required by the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 2 10:22 PM
                              --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Paolo Bagnaresi <paul.bagnaresi@...> wrote:

                              > Further, try dividing 360 by 300 and 300 by 250. You'll
                              > get the same value. What does it mean?
                              > It means that in a 5.25" drive rotating at 360 rpm
                              > with a transfer rate of 300 kbps encodes the data at the
                              > same interval of a 5.25"
                              > drive rotating at 300 rpm with a transfer rate of 250 kbps.
                              > That is 360/300=300/250.
                              >
                              > All this boils down to the fact that the two written disks
                              > will be equal. They can be used in both drives with no
                              > difference.
                              >
                              > Why the 360rpm speed then? A gimmick, just to have an
                              > identical disk in a shorter time.

                              It also gives a faster transfer speed for 1.2M disks. Controllers that support 2.88M drives can transfer up to 500K/second, which was required by the faster QIC floppy port tape drives. Still made for slow backups to the tapes, but far cheaper than a SCSI card and tape drive.
                            • Gregg Eshelman
                              ... I ve always figured it was a case of one-upping the competition. ;) In 1984 IBM introduced the PC-AT with a 1.2M floppy and a 20meg MFM (later it was upped
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 2 10:37 PM
                                --- On Thu, 4/2/09, FDOS <fdosbrs@...> wrote:

                                > That being the case, it begs the question, if we can put
                                > 720K on a DSDD
                                > diskette, either 3.5" or 5.25" at 300RPM and
                                > 1.44MB on a DSHD of 3.5" at
                                > 300RPM why weren't they (IBM or other PC mfg.) able to
                                > put 1.44MB on
                                > DSHD 5.25" diskette at 360RPM or 300RPM for that
                                > matter?

                                I've always figured it was a case of one-upping the competition. ;)

                                In 1984 IBM introduced the PC-AT with a 1.2M floppy and a 20meg MFM (later it was upped to 40meg RLL) hard drive. (YE Data introduced the format in 1982 with their YD380 drive.)

                                The 3.5" 1.44M format didn't come along until 1987. The bit of extra capacity and smaller, more rugged disks quickly doomed the 1.2M disks and drives, though for a few more years many PCs still shipped with both drives though the 5.25" drives saw little use outside of places that had some "legacy" systems without 3.5" drives, or individuals upgrading from an older PC who wanted to be able to read their old disks. It was often quite a bit of work convincing first-time PC buyers in the mid 90's that they'd have no use at all for a 5.25" drive, spend the money on some other option.

                                "Look here, for another $50 you can get a 250 megabyte hard drive instead of the 200 megabyte hard drive instead of getting the 1.2M floppy you'll never use." Ahhh, that magic time when hard drives dropped to $1 a megabyte... These days I work with video files that at 250 megs are considered "small".
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