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Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

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  • Ben Yates
    Exactly. One reason I keep referring to it as that card. It works, but I don t have a whole lot of respect for it! ;) Wonder what a modified flex cable
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 2, 2008
      Exactly. One reason I keep referring to it as "that" card. It works, but I
      don't have a whole lot of respect for it! ;)

      Wonder what a "modified" flex cable interface card is like in this
      situation...


      > From: Tursi <yahoogroup@...>
      > Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:14:26 -0400
      > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
      >
      > One thing to remember when thinking about the length of the signal drive
      > is that with the 4A console the original signal is only driven as far as
      > the flex interface card. There's a buffer in there and there's another
      > buffer at the other end of the cable where it plugs into the TI.
      >
      > Now whether you're seeing oddness from those two extra buffers might be
      > worth a look - flex interface card going?
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Ben Yates" <ti99_forever@...>
      > To: "TI Olug" <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:01 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
      >
      >
      >> But the PEB backplane is a passive bus. And Myarc, I'm sure, knew any
      >> pitfalls that the design might have had that TI might not have known
      >> when
      >> they created the PEB and that interface card.
      >>
      >>
      >>> From: "Sullivan, Bill" <sullivanbill@...>
      >>> Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:22:06 -0700
      >>> To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
      >>>
      >>> However, we have to believe that the PEB was designed for the TI
      >>> Console, as the Geneve didn't exist at the time. ;-) In any case, the
      >>> shorter bus has to be an advantage. I wouldn't have a clue as to
      >>> whether
      >>> or not the Interface Cable (boot) was the culprit or not, but Tim did
      >>> get the same results with another one. I also know that an HRD I have
      >>> failed in the TI when the batteries were just a little low, but
      >>> worked
      >>> great in the Geneve, so maybe proof of the shorter bus effect, maybe?
      >>>
      >>> Bill S
      >
    • mark wills
      Well, (theorising here) perhaps the buffers in the flex card are on their way out? It would be very difficult to measure the load on the data/address bus with
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 2, 2008
        Well, (theorising here) perhaps the buffers in the flex card are on their way out? It would be very difficult to measure the load on the data/address bus with the HRD and Geneve in the box, but one theory could be that the buffers in the flex card or the console end (they're acting as acting as line drivers afterall) are just not up to the job...

        I remember years ago my baby son (he's 15 now!) pulled the connector out of the side of the console. Blew the buffers in the console end of the cable. I replaced the buffers with HCT equivalents IIRC.

        Mark.


        Mark Wills, MSc MIAP
        http://www.markwills.co.uk



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Ben Yates <ti99_forever@...>
        To: TI Olug <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 2 July, 2008 9:18:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question


        Exactly. One reason I keep referring to it as "that" card. It works, but I
        don't have a whole lot of respect for it! ;)

        Wonder what a "modified" flex cable interface card is like in this
        situation...

        > From: Tursi <yahoogroup@harmless lion.com>
        > Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>
        > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:14:26 -0400
        > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>
        > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
        >
        > One thing to remember when thinking about the length of the signal drive
        > is that with the 4A console the original signal is only driven as far as
        > the flex interface card. There's a buffer in there and there's another
        > buffer at the other end of the cable where it plugs into the TI.
        >
        > Now whether you're seeing oddness from those two extra buffers might be
        > worth a look - flex interface card going?
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Ben Yates" <ti99_forever@ yahoo.com>
        > To: "TI Olug" <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:01 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
        >
        >
        >> But the PEB backplane is a passive bus. And Myarc, I'm sure, knew any
        >> pitfalls that the design might have had that TI might not have known
        >> when
        >> they created the PEB and that interface card.
        >>
        >>
        >>> From: "Sullivan, Bill" <sullivanbill@ sbcglobal. net>
        >>> Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>
        >>> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:22:06 -0700
        >>> To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>
        >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
        >>>
        >>> However, we have to believe that the PEB was designed for the TI
        >>> Console, as the Geneve didn't exist at the time. ;-) In any case, the
        >>> shorter bus has to be an advantage. I wouldn't have a clue as to
        >>> whether
        >>> or not the Interface Cable (boot) was the culprit or not, but Tim did
        >>> get the same results with another one. I also know that an HRD I have
        >>> failed in the TI when the batteries were just a little low, but
        >>> worked
        >>> great in the Geneve, so maybe proof of the shorter bus effect, maybe?
        >>>
        >>> Bill S
        >




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      • Robert Tilley
        It s an easy enough fix, just remember what density your floppy disks are when testing afterwards! lol ... works, but I ... signal drive ... far as ... another
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 2, 2008
          It's an easy enough fix, just remember what density your floppy disks
          are when testing afterwards! lol

          --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Ben Yates <ti99_forever@...> wrote:
          >
          > Exactly. One reason I keep referring to it as "that" card. It
          works, but I
          > don't have a whole lot of respect for it! ;)
          >
          > Wonder what a "modified" flex cable interface card is like in this
          > situation...
          >
          >
          > > From: Tursi <yahoogroup@...>
          > > Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:14:26 -0400
          > > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
          > >
          > > One thing to remember when thinking about the length of the
          signal drive
          > > is that with the 4A console the original signal is only driven as
          far as
          > > the flex interface card. There's a buffer in there and there's
          another
          > > buffer at the other end of the cable where it plugs into the TI.
          > >
          > > Now whether you're seeing oddness from those two extra buffers
          might be
          > > worth a look - flex interface card going?
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Ben Yates" <ti99_forever@...>
          > > To: "TI Olug" <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:01 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
          > >
          > >
          > >> But the PEB backplane is a passive bus. And Myarc, I'm sure,
          knew any
          > >> pitfalls that the design might have had that TI might not have
          known
          > >> when
          > >> they created the PEB and that interface card.
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>> From: "Sullivan, Bill" <sullivanbill@...>
          > >>> Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
          > >>> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:22:06 -0700
          > >>> To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
          > >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
          > >>>
          > >>> However, we have to believe that the PEB was designed for the TI
          > >>> Console, as the Geneve didn't exist at the time. ;-) In any
          case, the
          > >>> shorter bus has to be an advantage. I wouldn't have a clue as to
          > >>> whether
          > >>> or not the Interface Cable (boot) was the culprit or not, but
          Tim did
          > >>> get the same results with another one. I also know that an HRD
          I have
          > >>> failed in the TI when the batteries were just a little low, but
          > >>> worked
          > >>> great in the Geneve, so maybe proof of the shorter bus effect,
          maybe?
          > >>>
          > >>> Bill S
          > >
          >
        • Marc Hull
          Ya know, if truth be told.....You guys may be on to something with this whole flex card issue. If timing somehow becomes a critical issue then the Geneve has
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 2, 2008
            Ya know, if truth be told.....You guys may be on to something with this whole flex card issue. If timing somehow becomes a critical issue then the Geneve has a head and shoulders advantage over the TI ! Just considering the physical location of the TI, at least 6 feet from the PEB for a round trip accounts for more than a 12 ns delay just in the physics, not to mention the delay inherent in the logic transfers. If there is another issue that otherwise would be transparent then the sum of the minor issues could create an actual issue effecting operation.

            After thinking on my theory about the 3000b being designed for the Geneve only, one thought keeps coming to mind. Why would someone do that especially with all the pains taken to make the Geneve compatable. I retract my prior theory and subscribe to the current one about timing issues. Has anyone ever tried to overcome this issue by not only doing the flex card mod but also by shortening the cable ? Do we really need that much cable ?

            Obviously the Geneve doesn't..........

            I know that you Tim are good at what you do and very knowlegable about issues TI and Geneve. What say you about this ?

            Waiting.....


            Ben Yates <ti99_forever@...> wrote:
            Ok, here is a stupid question:
            Did you by chance try a different flex-cable interface card with your TI?

            > From: Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...>
            > Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:02:30 -0500
            > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
            >
            >
            > Well Ben, the saga continues... here are the results:
            >
            > The horizon is working in both TI and geneve systems as of roughly an hour
            > ago.
            >
            > On the Geneve, the memory from>5800->5FFF was visible and I could read/write
            > to it. When
            > I moved the card to the TI, this same memory area was all>0000; I could not
            > write to it. This
            > made no sense at all! I was even able to load CFG and the ROS on the Geneve
            > (after executing
            > a ROMPAGE) with success yet the same operation failed on the TI with a
            > "unknown card" error.
            >
            > I decided to remove the two memory controller chips and the RAM chips and re-
            > seated all of them 2-3 times. I re-tested the card - cfg recognized the card
            > but locked up
            > when trying to load the ROS. MEGTEST showed multiple errors on U11, the 8K
            > chip, so I
            > reseated it a few times along with the memory controller chips for good
            > measure.
            >
            > The card has a few programs on it and is working for now. I guess I should
            > run the comprehensive
            > memory test next. The problem may have been corrossion-related but I can't
            > tell for certain. A bad
            > solder joint or flakey IC could as easily cause the same issues. What still
            > perplexes me is
            > how the card worked in the Geneve at the same time failing in a TI.
            >
            > One step that wasted a lot of time was discovering the dm1000 3.5 present on
            > the ROS814 disk does
            > not like the myarc floppy controller card; the program locks up! I thought my
            > Myarc card
            > was faulty because upon removal, DM1000 worked fine. But I tested a second
            > Myarc FDC and got
            > the same results. It then dawned on me my earlier RAMDISk testing was with
            > the HFDC only. So I
            > tried running dm1000 with the HFDC and confirmed it succeeded where the Myarc
            > FDC did not.
            >
            > I realize now that I need to make a few more robust utility disks for the TI.
            > So many of my utility
            > disks are geared to the Geneve except those few programs I use when repairing
            > or upgrading
            > equipment. Time to surface from the dungeon for a few hours... ;)-
            >
            >
            > Tim
            >
            >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            >> From: insane_m@...
            >> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:47:36 -0500
            >> Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi Ben, I should have noted that in my earlier reply. It -seems- that the
            >> card is
            >> visible in the>4000 range. I haven't tried writing a program to move the rOS
            >> yet;
            >> I was running the test program earlier and it produces error upon error.
            >>
            >> So, I dug up the ROS812 source code and am reviewing how CFG tests for a
            >> horizon in the hopes it
            >> lends me a clue or two. It appears that CFG turns on the card then uses>5800
            >> as the
            >> test area. CFG turns on a few different racks and tests whether the value
            >> changed or
            >> stayed the same. If the value did not change, CFG discards the card as a
            >> RAMdisk. What I'm
            >> thinking might be happening is the value on the card is possibly the same as
            >> the test value,
            >> which would render a false negative.
            >>
            >> i'll report back a bit later on my findings... thank you for the suggestions!
            >>
            >> Tim
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            >>> From: ti99_forever@...
            >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:07:24 -0400
            >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
            >>>
            >>> What happens when you page it in and poke around the>4000 space?
            >>> Does it seem to work ok?
            >>>
            >>> Have you considered writing a small program to move the ROS out to the card
            >>> like I suggested? That fixed mine once when it wasn't recognized.
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>> From: Insane Multitasker
            >>>> Reply-To:
            >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:23:13 -0500
            >>>> To:
            >>>> Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>> Thanks, Bill, I gave that a shot but no dice. I have a second 3000 that
            >>>> I've
            >>>> used for
            >>>> comparison purposes but don't see any differences yet. The second card
            >>>> works
            >>>> fine with the TI,
            >>>> I suppose I better test it with the geneve.
            >>>>
            >>>> tim
            >>>>
            >>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            >>>>> From: sullivanbill@...
            >>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:56:28 -0700
            >>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Tim,
            >>>>>
            >>>>> I had a similar experience with a 192K HRD that would work 5 x 5 in my
            >>>>> Geneve, but could not be identified in the TI. I put fresh batteries in
            >>>>> even though the batteries were just a little low, but it worked after
            >>>>> that.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Bill S
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Insane Multitasker wrote:
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> Hi folks,
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> I have a Horizon RAMdisk (3000 variety) on my workbench that's been
            >>>>>> giving me a bit of a fit.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> When I use the Horizon in a TI system, the ROS CFG program is unable
            >>>>>> to detect the RAMdisk.It
            >>>>>> comes up as "unknown device". I've swapped chips, looked at the
            >>>>>> available schematics, but
            >>>>>> still cannot determine the cause.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> Marc Hull has a similar situation with a 3000 RAMdisk he owns. During
            >>>>>> one of our exchanges he
            >>>>>> asked me if I had tried formatting the RAMdisk with a Geneve system.
            >>>>>> That got me to thinking about
            >>>>>> this RAMdisk -- I have never used it in a TI system. So, I proceeded
            >>>>>> to put together a test Geneve
            >>>>>> system, inserted the RAMdisk, launched FORM123 (Jim Schroeder's format
            >>>>>> utility) and lo-and-behold
            >>>>>> the RAMdisk was recognized as a 16-bit RAMdisk at>1600 (>1601).
            >>>>>> Functionality was as expected.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> So... my question to those who might know: Is there a modification for
            >>>>>> the Horizon 3000 that may
            >>>>>> have rendered it unusable with a TI, perhaps to obtain better
            >>>>>> performance with the Geneve?
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> Any thoughts or assistance would be greatly appreciated.
            >>>>>>
            >>>>>> -Tim
            > __________________________________________________________
            > It¹s a talkathon ­ but it¹s not just talk.
            > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
            > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
            > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
            > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
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            >
            >






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ti99_forever
            I _do_ know that adding an extension cable can cause issues. I once added one between a TI speech thermal printer extension cable PEB and started
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 2, 2008
              I _do_ know that adding an extension cable can cause issues. I once added one between a TI<->speech<->thermal printer<->extension cable<->PEB and started having a number of issues until I removed the cable.

              It worked ok with the thermal printer removed from the equation.

              --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Marc Hull <marc.hull@...> wrote:
              From: Marc Hull <marc.hull@...>
              Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question
              To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 11:27 PM











              Ya know, if truth be told.....You guys may be on to something with this whole flex card issue. If timing somehow becomes a critical issue then the Geneve has a head and shoulders advantage over the TI ! Just considering the physical location of the TI, at least 6 feet from the PEB for a round trip accounts for more than a 12 ns delay just in the physics, not to mention the delay inherent in the logic transfers. If there is another issue that otherwise would be transparent then the sum of the minor issues could create an actual issue effecting operation.



              After thinking on my theory about the 3000b being designed for the Geneve only, one thought keeps coming to mind. Why would someone do that especially with all the pains taken to make the Geneve compatable. I retract my prior theory and subscribe to the current one about timing issues. Has anyone ever tried to overcome this issue by not only doing the flex card mod but also by shortening the cable ? Do we really need that much cable ?



              Obviously the Geneve doesn't..... .....



              I know that you Tim are good at what you do and very knowlegable about issues TI and Geneve. What say you about this ?



              Waiting.....





              Ben Yates <ti99_forever@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              Ok, here is a stupid question:

              Did you by chance try a different flex-cable interface card with your TI?



              > From: Insane Multitasker <insane_m@hotmail. com>

              > Reply-To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>

              > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:02:30 -0500

              > To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com>

              > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

              >

              >

              > Well Ben, the saga continues... here are the results:

              >

              > The horizon is working in both TI and geneve systems as of roughly an hour

              > ago.

              >

              > On the Geneve, the memory from>5800->5FFF was visible and I could read/write

              > to it. When

              > I moved the card to the TI, this same memory area was all>0000; I could not

              > write to it. This

              > made no sense at all! I was even able to load CFG and the ROS on the Geneve

              > (after executing

              > a ROMPAGE) with success yet the same operation failed on the TI with a

              > "unknown card" error.

              >

              > I decided to remove the two memory controller chips and the RAM chips and re-

              > seated all of them 2-3 times. I re-tested the card - cfg recognized the card

              > but locked up

              > when trying to load the ROS. MEGTEST showed multiple errors on U11, the 8K

              > chip, so I

              > reseated it a few times along with the memory controller chips for good

              > measure.

              >

              > The card has a few programs on it and is working for now. I guess I should

              > run the comprehensive

              > memory test next. The problem may have been corrossion-related but I can't

              > tell for certain. A bad

              > solder joint or flakey IC could as easily cause the same issues. What still

              > perplexes me is

              > how the card worked in the Geneve at the same time failing in a TI.

              >

              > One step that wasted a lot of time was discovering the dm1000 3.5 present on

              > the ROS814 disk does

              > not like the myarc floppy controller card; the program locks up! I thought my

              > Myarc card

              > was faulty because upon removal, DM1000 worked fine. But I tested a second

              > Myarc FDC and got

              > the same results. It then dawned on me my earlier RAMDISk testing was with

              > the HFDC only. So I

              > tried running dm1000 with the HFDC and confirmed it succeeded where the Myarc

              > FDC did not.

              >

              > I realize now that I need to make a few more robust utility disks for the TI.

              > So many of my utility

              > disks are geared to the Geneve except those few programs I use when repairing

              > or upgrading

              > equipment. Time to surface from the dungeon for a few hours... ;)-

              >

              >

              > Tim

              >

              >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com

              >> From: insane_m@hotmail. com

              >> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:47:36 -0500

              >> Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

              >>

              >>

              >>

              >> Hi Ben, I should have noted that in my earlier reply. It -seems- that the

              >> card is

              >> visible in the>4000 range. I haven't tried writing a program to move the rOS

              >> yet;

              >> I was running the test program earlier and it produces error upon error.

              >>

              >> So, I dug up the ROS812 source code and am reviewing how CFG tests for a

              >> horizon in the hopes it

              >> lends me a clue or two. It appears that CFG turns on the card then uses>5800

              >> as the

              >> test area. CFG turns on a few different racks and tests whether the value

              >> changed or

              >> stayed the same. If the value did not change, CFG discards the card as a

              >> RAMdisk. What I'm

              >> thinking might be happening is the value on the card is possibly the same as

              >> the test value,

              >> which would render a false negative.

              >>

              >> i'll report back a bit later on my findings... thank you for the suggestions!

              >>

              >> Tim

              >>

              >>

              >>

              >>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com

              >>> From: ti99_forever@ yahoo.com

              >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:07:24 -0400

              >>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

              >>>

              >>> What happens when you page it in and poke around the>4000 space?

              >>> Does it seem to work ok?

              >>>

              >>> Have you considered writing a small program to move the ROS out to the card

              >>> like I suggested? That fixed mine once when it wasn't recognized.

              >>>

              >>>

              >>>> From: Insane Multitasker

              >>>> Reply-To:

              >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:23:13 -0500

              >>>> To:

              >>>> Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

              >>>>

              >>>>

              >>>> Thanks, Bill, I gave that a shot but no dice. I have a second 3000 that

              >>>> I've

              >>>> used for

              >>>> comparison purposes but don't see any differences yet. The second card

              >>>> works

              >>>> fine with the TI,

              >>>> I suppose I better test it with the geneve.

              >>>>

              >>>> tim

              >>>>

              >>>>> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups .com

              >>>>> From: sullivanbill@ sbcglobal. net

              >>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:56:28 -0700

              >>>>> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk Question

              >>>>>

              >>>>> Tim,

              >>>>>

              >>>>> I had a similar experience with a 192K HRD that would work 5 x 5 in my

              >>>>> Geneve, but could not be identified in the TI. I put fresh batteries in

              >>>>> even though the batteries were just a little low, but it worked after

              >>>>> that.

              >>>>>

              >>>>> Bill S

              >>>>>

              >>>>> Insane Multitasker wrote:

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> Hi folks,

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> I have a Horizon RAMdisk (3000 variety) on my workbench that's been

              >>>>>> giving me a bit of a fit.

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> When I use the Horizon in a TI system, the ROS CFG program is unable

              >>>>>> to detect the RAMdisk.It

              >>>>>> comes up as "unknown device". I've swapped chips, looked at the

              >>>>>> available schematics, but

              >>>>>> still cannot determine the cause.

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> Marc Hull has a similar situation with a 3000 RAMdisk he owns. During

              >>>>>> one of our exchanges he

              >>>>>> asked me if I had tried formatting the RAMdisk with a Geneve system.

              >>>>>> That got me to thinking about

              >>>>>> this RAMdisk -- I have never used it in a TI system. So, I proceeded

              >>>>>> to put together a test Geneve

              >>>>>> system, inserted the RAMdisk, launched FORM123 (Jim Schroeder's format

              >>>>>> utility) and lo-and-behold

              >>>>>> the RAMdisk was recognized as a 16-bit RAMdisk at>1600 (>1601).

              >>>>>> Functionality was as expected.

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> So... my question to those who might know: Is there a modification for

              >>>>>> the Horizon 3000 that may

              >>>>>> have rendered it unusable with a TI, perhaps to obtain better

              >>>>>> performance with the Geneve?

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> Any thoughts or assistance would be greatly appreciated.

              >>>>>>

              >>>>>> -Tim

              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

              > It¹s a talkathon ­ but it¹s not just talk.

              > http://www.imtalkat hon.com/? source=EML_ WLH_Talkathon_ JustTalk

              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

              >

              > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!

              > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof org/.

              > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers org/.

              > Send abuse reports to abuse@ti99ers. orgYahoo! Groups Links

              >

              >

              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Insane Multitasker
              Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice. As I noted before, this is the first RAMDISK I ve had on my workbench for repair purposes,
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 5, 2008
                Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice. As I noted before, this is the
                first RAMDISK I've had on my workbench for repair purposes, even if I didn't plan for ir.

                I've essentially convinced myself that the problem with my RAMdisk was in fact related
                to bad sockets. Replacing the 8K RAM socket and the logic/buffer chip sockets eliminated the
                errors during testing and has proved to stabilize the RAMDISK on both the TI and Geneve.

                I cracked open a few of the logic chip sockets and looked at the contacts with a 10x loupe. I could
                tell that some mild corrossion had indeed set in. Additionlly, the sockets used for the logic and
                8K chip were of a poor quality. Most were single wipe and some had very little surface contact area.
                Tension between the chip and the socket was minimal creating yet another point of failure.

                Should anyone run into sporadic errors with their Horizon 3000 it would be prudent to carefully
                examine the sockets and replace any that are suspect. The parts may not have been sub-standard
                for the period but I would expect good double-wipe sockets or machine sockets would have held out
                better. (I prefer double-wipe sockets over machine sockets - to each his/her own).

                If I purchase some 128K or 512K chips to upgrade this unit, I'll most likely replace the 32 pin sockets
                at the same time. The 4 pins not in use by the 28-pin 32K chips are questionable.

                Marc Hull: I hope your RAMdisk situation is improving as well. Let us know what you found.

                Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone... I'm going to go play with my Horizon RAMdisk ;)

                Tim


                _________________________________________________________________
                Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
                http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008
              • Eric Bray
                We learned that same lesson years ago in PATIUG, we bought some less expensive sockets for a couple of projects, saving about 15%-20% on the cost of the
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 5, 2008
                  We learned that same lesson years ago in PATIUG, we bought some less
                  expensive sockets for a couple of projects, saving about 15%-20% on
                  the cost of the sockets. In the long run there were more trouble than
                  they were worth. Alan Silverstein, our hardware Guru, wound up
                  changing about 30% of those sockets.

                  From that point onwards, we always bought quality sockets and base
                  components for all of our future projects and of user produced
                  equipment failure rate dropped down to almost nothing.

                  Note: We also found "Radio Shack" was not always the BEST source for
                  quality components; many of the independent electronic shops sold
                  much higher quality parts for just a few pennies more per unit!

                  --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice.
                  As I noted before, this is the
                  > first RAMDISK I've had on my workbench for repair purposes, even if
                  I didn't plan for ir.
                  >
                  > I've essentially convinced myself that the problem with my RAMdisk
                  was in fact related
                  > to bad sockets. Replacing the 8K RAM socket and the logic/buffer
                  chip sockets eliminated the
                  > errors during testing and has proved to stabilize the RAMDISK on
                  both the TI and Geneve.
                  >
                  > I cracked open a few of the logic chip sockets and looked at the
                  contacts with a 10x loupe. I could
                  > tell that some mild corrossion had indeed set in. Additionlly,
                  the sockets used for the logic and
                  > 8K chip were of a poor quality. Most were single wipe and some had
                  very little surface contact area.
                  > Tension between the chip and the socket was minimal creating yet
                  another point of failure.
                  >
                  > Should anyone run into sporadic errors with their Horizon 3000 it
                  would be prudent to carefully
                  > examine the sockets and replace any that are suspect. The parts
                  may not have been sub-standard
                  > for the period but I would expect good double-wipe sockets or
                  machine sockets would have held out
                  > better. (I prefer double-wipe sockets over machine sockets - to
                  each his/her own).
                  >
                  > If I purchase some 128K or 512K chips to upgrade this unit, I'll
                  most likely replace the 32 pin sockets
                  > at the same time. The 4 pins not in use by the 28-pin 32K chips
                  are questionable.
                  >
                  > Marc Hull: I hope your RAMdisk situation is improving as well.
                  Let us know what you found.
                  >
                  > Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone... I'm going to go play
                  with my Horizon RAMdisk ;)
                  >
                  > Tim
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live
                  Messenger.
                  > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?
                  ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008
                  >
                • Marc Hull
                  Hey Mr.T Upon taking your advice and changing out the sockets on the logic, mapper and 62256 chips I am now Running 5x5 with no problems. So much for all the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 6, 2008
                    Hey Mr.T

                    Upon taking your advice and changing out the sockets on the logic, mapper and 62256 chips I am now Running 5x5 with no problems. So much for all the wild theories (myself included...)

                    I found the same issues you did particularly with the 14 pin sockets.

                    I guess you should always make sure there's gas in the tank before you tear down the engine. Well I guess I had better stretch that flex cable back out. Now where is my board stretcher? ;-p

                    Hannibal....

                    Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...> wrote:

                    Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice. As I noted before, this is the
                    first RAMDISK I've had on my workbench for repair purposes, even if I didn't plan for ir.

                    I've essentially convinced myself that the problem with my RAMdisk was in fact related
                    to bad sockets. Replacing the 8K RAM socket and the logic/buffer chip sockets eliminated the
                    errors during testing and has proved to stabilize the RAMDISK on both the TI and Geneve.

                    I cracked open a few of the logic chip sockets and looked at the contacts with a 10x loupe. I could
                    tell that some mild corrossion had indeed set in. Additionlly, the sockets used for the logic and
                    8K chip were of a poor quality. Most were single wipe and some had very little surface contact area.
                    Tension between the chip and the socket was minimal creating yet another point of failure.

                    Should anyone run into sporadic errors with their Horizon 3000 it would be prudent to carefully
                    examine the sockets and replace any that are suspect. The parts may not have been sub-standard
                    for the period but I would expect good double-wipe sockets or machine sockets would have held out
                    better. (I prefer double-wipe sockets over machine sockets - to each his/her own).

                    If I purchase some 128K or 512K chips to upgrade this unit, I'll most likely replace the 32 pin sockets
                    at the same time. The 4 pins not in use by the 28-pin 32K chips are questionable.

                    Marc Hull: I hope your RAMdisk situation is improving as well. Let us know what you found.

                    Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone... I'm going to go play with my Horizon RAMdisk ;)

                    Tim

                    __________________________________________________________
                    Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
                    http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Insane Multitasker
                    Awesome! I ve not heard of board stretchers but I do recall at least one person who used his Geneve circuit board as a cheese grater... i would bet only hard
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 6, 2008
                      Awesome!

                      I've not heard of board stretchers but I do recall at least one person
                      who used his Geneve circuit board as a cheese grater... i would bet only
                      hard cheeses like parmesan gave the desired result.


                      > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: marc.hull@...
                      > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:32:56 -0700
                      > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk -solution-
                      >
                      > Hey Mr.T
                      >
                      > Upon taking your advice and changing out the sockets on the logic, mapper and 62256 chips I am now Running 5x5 with no problems. So much for all the wild theories (myself included...)
                      >
                      > I found the same issues you did particularly with the 14 pin sockets.
                      >
                      > I guess you should always make sure there's gas in the tank before you tear down the engine. Well I guess I had better stretch that flex cable back out. Now where is my board stretcher? ;-p
                      >
                      > Hannibal....
                      >
                      > Insane Multitasker wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice. As I noted before, this is the
                      > first RAMDISK I've had on my workbench for repair purposes, even if I didn't plan for ir.
                      >
                      > I've essentially convinced myself that the problem with my RAMdisk was in fact related
                      > to bad sockets. Replacing the 8K RAM socket and the logic/buffer chip sockets eliminated the
                      > errors during testing and has proved to stabilize the RAMDISK on both the TI and Geneve.
                      >
                      > I cracked open a few of the logic chip sockets and looked at the contacts with a 10x loupe. I could
                      > tell that some mild corrossion had indeed set in. Additionlly, the sockets used for the logic and
                      > 8K chip were of a poor quality. Most were single wipe and some had very little surface contact area.
                      > Tension between the chip and the socket was minimal creating yet another point of failure.
                      >
                      > Should anyone run into sporadic errors with their Horizon 3000 it would be prudent to carefully
                      > examine the sockets and replace any that are suspect. The parts may not have been sub-standard
                      > for the period but I would expect good double-wipe sockets or machine sockets would have held out
                      > better. (I prefer double-wipe sockets over machine sockets - to each his/her own).
                      >
                      > If I purchase some 128K or 512K chips to upgrade this unit, I'll most likely replace the 32 pin sockets
                      > at the same time. The 4 pins not in use by the 28-pin 32K chips are questionable.
                      >
                      > Marc Hull: I hope your RAMdisk situation is improving as well. Let us know what you found.
                      >
                      > Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone... I'm going to go play with my Horizon RAMdisk ;)
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________________
                      > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
                      > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                      > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
                      > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
                      > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ti99-4a/
                      >
                      > Your email settings:
                      > Individual Email | Traditional
                      >
                      > To change settings online go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ti99-4a/join
                      > (Yahoo! ID required)
                      >
                      > To change settings via email:
                      > mailto:ti99-4a-digest@yahoogroups.com
                      > mailto:ti99-4a-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > ti99-4a-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Making the world a better place one message at a time.
                      http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace
                    • Marc Hull
                      Board stretchers are what we use in the cabinet business to stretch boards that accidentally get cut to short. We keep them over by the left handed
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 6, 2008
                        Board stretchers are what we use in the cabinet business to stretch boards that accidentally get cut to short. We keep them over by the left handed screwdrivers and cans of stripped paint. I don't know about a cheese grater but that rough back surface could easily be used as rough grit sandpaper. I wonder :-)

                        Insane Multitasker <insane_m@...> wrote:
                        Awesome!

                        I've not heard of board stretchers but I do recall at least one person
                        who used his Geneve circuit board as a cheese grater... i would bet only
                        hard cheeses like parmesan gave the desired result.

                        > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: marc.hull@...
                        > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:32:56 -0700
                        > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] Horizon 3000 RAMdisk -solution-
                        >
                        > Hey Mr.T
                        >
                        > Upon taking your advice and changing out the sockets on the logic, mapper and 62256 chips I am now Running 5x5 with no problems. So much for all the wild theories (myself included...)
                        >
                        > I found the same issues you did particularly with the 14 pin sockets.
                        >
                        > I guess you should always make sure there's gas in the tank before you tear down the engine. Well I guess I had better stretch that flex cable back out. Now where is my board stretcher? ;-p
                        >
                        > Hannibal....
                        >
                        > Insane Multitasker wrote:
                        >
                        > Hey folks, first of all thanks to those who have offered advice. As I noted before, this is the
                        > first RAMDISK I've had on my workbench for repair purposes, even if I didn't plan for ir.
                        >
                        > I've essentially convinced myself that the problem with my RAMdisk was in fact related
                        > to bad sockets. Replacing the 8K RAM socket and the logic/buffer chip sockets eliminated the
                        > errors during testing and has proved to stabilize the RAMDISK on both the TI and Geneve.
                        >
                        > I cracked open a few of the logic chip sockets and looked at the contacts with a 10x loupe. I could
                        > tell that some mild corrossion had indeed set in. Additionlly, the sockets used for the logic and
                        > 8K chip were of a poor quality. Most were single wipe and some had very little surface contact area.
                        > Tension between the chip and the socket was minimal creating yet another point of failure.
                        >
                        > Should anyone run into sporadic errors with their Horizon 3000 it would be prudent to carefully
                        > examine the sockets and replace any that are suspect. The parts may not have been sub-standard
                        > for the period but I would expect good double-wipe sockets or machine sockets would have held out
                        > better. (I prefer double-wipe sockets over machine sockets - to each his/her own).
                        >
                        > If I purchase some 128K or 512K chips to upgrade this unit, I'll most likely replace the 32 pin sockets
                        > at the same time. The 4 pins not in use by the 28-pin 32K chips are questionable.
                        >
                        > Marc Hull: I hope your RAMdisk situation is improving as well. Let us know what you found.
                        >
                        > Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone... I'm going to go play with my Horizon RAMdisk ;)
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________________
                        > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
                        > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                        > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
                        > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
                        > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ti99-4a/
                        >
                        > Your email settings:
                        > Individual Email | Traditional
                        >
                        > To change settings online go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ti99-4a/join
                        > (Yahoo! ID required)
                        >
                        > To change settings via email:
                        > mailto:ti99-4a-digest@yahoogroups.com
                        > mailto:ti99-4a-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > ti99-4a-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >

                        __________________________________________________________
                        Making the world a better place one message at a time.
                        http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace




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