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FORTH

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  • rgminutillo
    I think I can foresee the answers I ll get, but does anyone know of a brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be pretty good at it;
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 3, 2008
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      I think I can foresee the answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
      brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
      pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
      Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
      FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
      start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
      figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
      disks, that sort of thing.

      I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
      will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
      of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?

      RGM
    • Marc Hull
      I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............ rgminutillo wrote: I think I can foresee the answers I ll get,
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 3, 2008
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        I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............

        rgminutillo <rgminutillo@...> wrote: I think I can foresee the answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
        brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
        pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
        Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
        FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
        start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
        figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
        disks, that sort of thing.

        I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
        will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
        of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?

        RGM






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nadav Ben Ami
        Hello. speaking of this language, does anyone have the FAST loading TI forth series of disks? Here is an odd question.. there are three files on forth disk:
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 3, 2008
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          Hello. speaking of this language, does anyone have the FAST loading TI forth series of disks? Here is an odd question.. there are three files on forth disk: FORTH 6 D/F
          FORTHSAVE 39 PGM, AND SYS-SCRNS 313 D/F 128 I think.. How does one write forth programs with only those three files?


          ________________________________
          > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
          > From: marc.hull@...
          > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:24:56 -0700
          > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] FORTH
          >
          >
          > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............
          >
          > rgminutillo <rgminutillo@...> wrote: I think I can foresee the answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
          > brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
          > pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
          > Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
          > FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
          > start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
          > figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
          > disks, that sort of thing.
          >
          > I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
          > will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
          > of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?
          >
          > RGM
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
          http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008
        • Ksarul
          It is because the programs are stored in the SYS-SCRNS file--it is actually a giant program storage space. On larger disks, you have more screen space and
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 3, 2008
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            It is because the programs are stored in the SYS-SCRNS file--it is actually
            a giant program storage space. On larger disks, you have more screen space
            and thus, more space to store programs.

            Jim

            -----Original Message-----
            From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Nadav Ben Ami
            Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:17 PM
            To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] FORTH


            Hello. speaking of this language, does anyone have the FAST loading TI forth
            series of disks? Here is an odd question.. there are three files on forth
            disk: FORTH 6 D/F
            FORTHSAVE 39 PGM, AND SYS-SCRNS 313 D/F 128 I think.. How does one write
            forth programs with only those three files?


            ________________________________
            > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            > From: marc.hull@...
            > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:24:56 -0700
            > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] FORTH
            >
            >
            > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............
            >
            > rgminutillo <rgminutillo@...> wrote: I think I can foresee the
            answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
            > brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
            > pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
            > Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
            > FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
            > start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
            > figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
            > disks, that sort of thing.
            >
            > I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
            > will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
            > of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?
            >
            > RGM
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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            _getintouch_042008
            ------------------------------------

            For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
            Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
            Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
            Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
          • Gregg Eshelman
            ... I felt a great disturbance in the FORTH, as if millions of lines of code had been written and were suddenly deleted..
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 3, 2008
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              --- Marc Hull <marc.hull@...> wrote:

              > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the
              > force............

              I felt a great disturbance in the FORTH, as if
              millions of lines of code had been written and were
              suddenly deleted..


              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
              http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
            • Sullivan, Bill
              Shiver me timbers, I believe you re right! Someone other than myself mentioned Forth, but at the time I was deep in the development of the X4th99 MMS (1MB AMS
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 4, 2008
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                Shiver me timbers, I believe you're right! Someone other than myself
                mentioned Forth, but at the time I was deep in the development of the
                X4th99 MMS (1MB AMS memory management system). Actually I'm reworking
                the Forth+ MMS for X4th99. Lots of changes are necessary, and I'm
                making them as I recall just how I came up with this dazzling 24bit
                scheme for my 2MB MDOS Geneve that can't work as is for X4th99's
                AMS/SAMS 1MB memory, but I will find a way to adapt it--lots of tricks
                are needed to do it the TI-99/4A/P way. I'm beginning to learn why I
                liked MDOS so much.

                As for Forth tutorials; if one could get a hold of a copy of Doctor Ron
                Albright's "Ophan Survial Handbook" they would be in possession of 4 or
                5 TI FORTH tutorials. I don't know if they're still available or not.
                I also have a copy of "Getting Started with TI-FORTH" from TSS-SOFTWARE,
                written by Richard Schneider. I don't recall where I got it, but it is
                clearly a "copy", so maybe OK to copy. Anyone know? TSS-SOFTWARE was
                located at 8249 Bunnelll Hill Road in Springboro, Ohio.

                Bill

                Marc Hull wrote:
                >
                > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............
                >
                > rgminutillo <rgminutillo@... <mailto:rgminutillo%40gmail.com>>
                > wrote: I think I can foresee the answers I'll get, but does anyone
                > know of a
                > brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
                > pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
                > Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
                > FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
                > start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
                > figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
                > disks, that sort of thing.
                >
                > I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
                > will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
                > of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?
                >
                > RGM
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Sullivan, Bill
                The SYS-SCRNS file is just there so standard disk managers won t try to use any part of the disk for additional files TI FORTH actually treats the whole disk
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 4, 2008
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                  The SYS-SCRNS file is just there so standard disk managers won't try to
                  use any part of the disk for additional files TI FORTH actually treats
                  the whole disk as sector I/O, but the area that would contain 1K Forth
                  BLOCKS at 8 through 19 are used for the real files FORTH & FORTHSAVE, so
                  they can't be used by Forth programmers without destroying the program.

                  However, once booted a newly TI formatted disk can be used as is for 1K
                  Forth BLOCKS; a 90K disk can contain 90 1K Forth BLOCKS, 180K disk 180,
                  and so on up to 720K, if you have a controller that supports it. If you
                  have more than 1 floppy drive the second and third and 4th drives can
                  also be used as Forth BLOCKS by setting DISK_SIZE & DISK_HI
                  appropriately. If the disk capacities of all drives are the same, say
                  720K, then the maximum capacity would be 2880 1K BLOCKS with the last
                  one being accessed by 2879 BLOCK or 2879 EDIT using a TI FORTH editor.
                  Therefore, a single TI FORTH program could be up to 2.949MB!

                  Bill S


                  Ksarul wrote:
                  >
                  > It is because the programs are stored in the SYS-SCRNS file--it is
                  > actually
                  > a giant program storage space. On larger disks, you have more screen space
                  > and thus, more space to store programs.
                  >
                  > Jim
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                  > Behalf Of
                  > Nadav Ben Ami
                  > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:17 PM
                  > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: RE: [TI-99/4A] FORTH
                  >
                  > Hello. speaking of this language, does anyone have the FAST loading TI
                  > forth
                  > series of disks? Here is an odd question.. there are three files on forth
                  > disk: FORTH 6 D/F
                  > FORTHSAVE 39 PGM, AND SYS-SCRNS 313 D/F 128 I think.. How does one write
                  > forth programs with only those three files?
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > From: marc.hull@... <mailto:marc.hull%40sbcglobal.net>
                  > > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:24:56 -0700
                  > > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] FORTH
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the force............
                  > >
                  > > rgminutillo <rgminutillo@... <mailto:rgminutillo%40gmail.com>>
                  > wrote: I think I can foresee the
                  > answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
                  > > brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
                  > > pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
                  > > Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
                  > > FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
                  > > start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
                  > > figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
                  > > disks, that sort of thing.
                  > >
                  > > I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
                  > > will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
                  > > of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?
                  > >
                  > > RGM
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
                  > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh
                  > <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh>
                  > _getintouch_042008
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                  > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
                  > <http://www.ti99hof.org/.>
                  > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
                  > <http://www.ti99ers.org/.>
                  > Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                  > <mailto:abuse%40ti99ers.orgYahoo>! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                • Sullivan, Bill
                  Doesn t matter. I have backups of backups on my TI and Geneves, and more backup of the backups on two PCs also. I believe I have enough to fill the largest
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 4, 2008
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                    Doesn't matter. I have backups of backups on my TI and Geneves, and
                    more backup of the backups on two PCs also. I believe I have enough to
                    fill the largest Black Hole to capacity! :-) :-) :-)

                    Bill S

                    Gregg Eshelman wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Marc Hull <marc.hull@...
                    > <mailto:marc.hull%40sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I bet Bill Sullivan felt a disturbance in the
                    > > force............
                    >
                    > I felt a great disturbance in the FORTH, as if
                    > millions of lines of code had been written and were
                    > suddenly deleted..
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of
                    > Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                    > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                    > <http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com>
                    >
                    >
                  • kabldb
                    Maybe you can use this ... http://www.forth.com/starting-forth
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 4, 2008
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                      Maybe you can use this ...

                      http://www.forth.com/starting-forth

                      :-)
                    • Jacques Groslouis
                      The folder 9640news CAT17 on the whtech site contains a few TI Forth tutorials. Jacques ... From: rgminutillo To:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 4, 2008
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                        The folder \9640news\CAT17 on the whtech site contains a few TI Forth
                        tutorials.

                        Jacques

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "rgminutillo" <rgminutillo@...>
                        To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:19 PM
                        Subject: [TI-99/4A] FORTH


                        >I think I can foresee the answers I'll get, but does anyone know of a
                        > brief tutorial or quick-reference card for TI FORTH? I used to be
                        > pretty good at it; wrote a nice game and a small article for FORTH
                        > Dimensions, but now I'm trying to actually boot up my old customized
                        > FORTH diskettes after 30 or so years, and I barely know where to
                        > start: just simple stuff like getting in and out of the the editor,
                        > figuring out where screens start and stop, now to manage screens and
                        > disks, that sort of thing.
                        >
                        > I have the docs, which are tedious and poorly organized, (and which I
                        > will nevertheless pour through) but as I said, a quick-reference type
                        > of doc would be nice. If there is one. Anyone know of or have one?
                        >
                        > RGM
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                        > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
                        > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
                        > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • rgminutillo
                        And what does FORTHSAVE actually do? I m on my way to getting reacquainted with TI Forth, and I do have Brodie s book (complete with my old penciled in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                          And what does FORTHSAVE actually do?

                          I'm on my way to getting reacquainted with TI Forth, and I do have
                          Brodie's book (complete with my old penciled in annotations: "not in
                          TI".) I haven't quite figured out my old "customized' startup disk. It
                          sets DISK_HI to 180, so I assume it was double sided, but the 3.5"
                          copy I'm working with stops at SCREEN 90, right in the middle of the
                          old game I was trying to recover. I need to go back to the 5 1/4"
                          version I guess.

                          Of course one of the maddening things about TI Forth (there are many)
                          is that the screen numbering is absolute and always starts with the
                          disk in drive 1, so I need to rig up a system with a 5 1/4" DSK1. And
                          who ever heard of a system that defaults to the assumption that your
                          printer is on RS232/2, no less!

                          Ah well, breakfast.

                          RGM
                        • rgminutillo
                          Good thought, but I have the book.. RGM
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                            Good thought, but I have the book..

                            RGM
                            --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, kabldb <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Maybe you can use this ...
                            >
                            > http://www.forth.com/starting-forth
                            >
                            > :-)
                            >
                          • rgminutillo
                            I had looked there, but didn t see any tutorials just a few diskette images and the documentation which I had assembled into a formatted 2-column PC document
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                              I had looked there, but didn't see any tutorials just a few diskette
                              images and the "documentation" which I had assembled into a formatted
                              2-column PC document which is a lot easier to print, read and bind.
                              I'm working on a 'cheat sheet.'

                              Anyway I'll look again in CAT17.

                              RGM


                              --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Groslouis" <jgroslou@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The folder \9640news\CAT17 on the whtech site contains a few TI Forth
                              > tutorials.
                              >
                            • rgminutillo
                              I looked again and found the Smith and the Winkler tutorials. Now I need to decide whether to deal with the pesky ARK format or just cut and paste them up into
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                I looked again and found the Smith and the Winkler tutorials. Now I
                                need to decide whether to deal with the pesky ARK format or just cut
                                and paste them up into PC readable/printable documents.

                                Thanks for prodding me to go back and search properly.

                                RGM


                                --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Groslouis" <jgroslou@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The folder \9640news\CAT17 on the whtech site contains a few TI Forth
                                > tutorials.
                              • mark wills
                                Ooh! I spent hours reading that site recently. The story of the evoulution of FORTH is compelling reading:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                  Ooh! I spent hours reading that site recently. The 'story' of the evoulution of FORTH is compelling reading:

                                  http://www.forth.com/resources/evolution/evolve_0.html




                                  Mark Wills, MSc MIAP
                                  http://www.markwills.co.uk



                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: kabldb <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                  To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, 4 April, 2008 6:23:25 PM
                                  Subject: [TI-99/4A] Re: FORTH

                                  Maybe you can use this ...

                                  http://www.forth com/starting- forth

                                  :-)





                                  ___________________________________________________________
                                  Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference

                                  http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jacques Groslouis
                                  If you install Fred Kaal s TiDir program you can access the ark files and print the tutorials on your PC. Shortcut to: http://home.wanadoo.nl/fgkaal/index.html
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                    If you install Fred Kaal's TiDir program you can access the ark files and
                                    print the tutorials on your PC. Shortcut to:
                                    http://home.wanadoo.nl/fgkaal/index.html

                                    Jacques

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "rgminutillo" <rgminutillo@...>
                                    To: <ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 8:39 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] FORTH


                                    >I looked again and found the Smith and the Winkler tutorials. Now I
                                    > need to decide whether to deal with the pesky ARK format or just cut
                                    > and paste them up into PC readable/printable documents.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for prodding me to go back and search properly.
                                    >
                                    > RGM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Groslouis" <jgroslou@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> The folder \9640news\CAT17 on the whtech site contains a few TI Forth
                                    >> tutorials.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                                    > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org/.
                                    > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/.
                                    > Send abuse reports to abuse@...! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Sullivan, Bill
                                    The file FORTH on the disk is the object file that sets up the Forth environment, includes the AL forth support routines, and loads FORTHSAVE which is a binary
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                      The file FORTH on the disk is the object file that sets up the Forth
                                      environment, includes the AL forth support routines, and loads FORTHSAVE
                                      which is a binary image of the entire TI FORTH kernel.

                                      DISK_HI sets the maximum number of Forth BLOCKS available on disk.
                                      DISK_SIZE sets the number of Forth BLOCKS per drive. If these values
                                      are the same then Forth expects that you have only one drive with that
                                      capacity of 1K Forth BLOCKS. If DISK_HI is double the value of
                                      DISK_SIZE then Forth will behave as if your system has two disk drives
                                      with each one containing the number of Forth BLOCKS specified by the
                                      value in DISK_SIZE. This means if you request a Forth BLOCK that is
                                      greater than the value in DISK_SIZE it will access that BLOCK on the
                                      second drive. You could also access the Forth BLOCKS on the second
                                      drive as if they were on the first drive by executing the Forth word
                                      DR1, and return to normal operation with DR0. A third drive could be
                                      added in the same fashion by increasing DISK_HI to 3 times the value of
                                      DISK_SIZE (provided all drives are the same capacity, of course). It
                                      too could be accessed by specifying a Forth BLOCK that is more than
                                      double the value in DISK_SIZE or by executing DR2.

                                      You can change the printer specification on (standard TI FORTH
                                      distribution disk) SCREEN/BLOCK #72, line #4, with the TI FORTH editor
                                      of your choice. This is easily done by loading the Editor, but not
                                      -PRINT until the change is made. Be sure to FLUSH after you're done. :-)

                                      Bill S

                                      rgminutillo wrote:
                                      >
                                      > And what does FORTHSAVE actually do?
                                      >
                                      > I'm on my way to getting reacquainted with TI Forth, and I do have
                                      > Brodie's book (complete with my old penciled in annotations: "not in
                                      > TI".) I haven't quite figured out my old "customized' startup disk. It
                                      > sets DISK_HI to 180, so I assume it was double sided, but the 3.5"
                                      > copy I'm working with stops at SCREEN 90, right in the middle of the
                                      > old game I was trying to recover. I need to go back to the 5 1/4"
                                      > version I guess.
                                      >
                                      > Of course one of the maddening things about TI Forth (there are many)
                                      > is that the screen numbering is absolute and always starts with the
                                      > disk in drive 1, so I need to rig up a system with a 5 1/4" DSK1. And
                                      > who ever heard of a system that defaults to the assumption that your
                                      > printer is on RS232/2, no less!
                                      >
                                      > Ah well, breakfast.
                                      >
                                      > RGM
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • rgminutillo
                                      Thanks Bill. So here s where I m at with FORTH. I m trying to recover my old TI FORTH skills for no other reason than to be able to look again and figure out
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                        Thanks Bill.

                                        So here's where I'm at with FORTH. I'm trying to recover my old TI
                                        FORTH skills for no other reason than to be able to look again and
                                        figure out some old FORTH code I wrote. I've made some progress, but I
                                        have a problem which I'm not sure how to solve.

                                        My original system, like all of yours, featured 5 1/4" floppy
                                        diskettes. My main 'reconstituted' system, however, uses 3 1/2"
                                        diskatte drives. In my PEB, DSK1 and DSK2 are 3 1/4" while DSK3 and
                                        DSK4 are 5 1/4". That's all well and good.

                                        My old 'fixed' FORTH system diskette BLOADS my customized context
                                        vocabulary, which among other things defines DISK_SIZE at 180. (I
                                        don't think FORTH did double density, but it did support double
                                        sided.) Anyway, there are 720 sectors and 180 screens on that
                                        diskette. But the diskette still identifies itself as SSSD, and
                                        SYS-SCRNS is 313 only sectors long, not 673. So when I use TI99-PC to
                                        make an image I lose the sectors on side 2 that have SCREENS 90 - 179;
                                        my images don't have those screens and the 3 1/4" diskettes I make
                                        from those images lack them as well.

                                        As has been mentioned, FORTH itself just accesses sectors, and with
                                        DISK_SIZE set at 180 FORTH expects SCREENS 0 - 179 on DSK1, 180 - 359
                                        on DSK2 360 - 539 on DSK3, etc. So I boot with my incomplete 3 1/4" in
                                        DSK1 and I put the original, complete 5 1/4" diskette in DSK3, and I
                                        can see SCREENS 449 - 539. So they are there.

                                        Although the manual states that you MUST set the variable DISK_HI to
                                        the correct multiple of DISK_SIZE, I found that I could access sector
                                        numbers higher that DISK_HI. So it should have been simple to used
                                        SMOVE (actually a conservative series of SMOVE commands) to transfer
                                        screens from my original 180 screen 5 1/4" floppy in DSK3 to my 'new'
                                        3 1/2" floppy in DSK1. Unfortunately, it didn't work, at first.

                                        The problem was that my 3 1/2" diskette had been originally formatted
                                        as SSSD by Paolo's TI99-PC program, and the sector marks for the
                                        second side were never, ever written to the disk. When I tried to
                                        write to SCREEN 90 or higher I got 'disk error.'

                                        So I took another 3 1/2" diskette and pre-formatted it as DSSD. After
                                        that, when Paolo's program re-wrote the SSSD image onto that diskette,
                                        it left the second side intact, including sector marks. So Now I has a
                                        FORTH diskette that could write to sectors 90 - 179, and my SMOVE
                                        commands worked as designed.

                                        I imagine that's how I made the original 'master' 5 1/4" floppy: I
                                        must have pre-formatted it with DM as DSSD, then used FORTH-COPY to
                                        copy the original SSSD master onto it.

                                        Alas I've still ended up with a diskette that thinks it's SSSD, so I
                                        still can't use Paolo's neat utility to make a complete 720 sector
                                        image copy.

                                        I'd much rather be dealing with images and emulators than 'real'
                                        floppies and my ancient hardware, so I think the next thing I'll try
                                        is to hack the header of a copy of my now-complete FORTH system
                                        diskette and tell it that it's DSSD. I'm hoping that Paolo's program
                                        will then dutifully copy what it believes are 'empty' sectors on side
                                        two, and I'll have a complete image.

                                        RGM

                                        By the way, Bill, I must have figured out (or read) how to redirect
                                        SWCH to PIO instead of RS232/2, because my restored master diskette
                                        does just that. And I had either forgotten about or never known about
                                        the DR1, DR2... commands. However, I still would have had to use the
                                        absolute screen numbers to make the SMOVE commands work. And of course
                                        ALL of your diskettes have to be formatted to the same size, you can't
                                        mix and match SSSD and DSDD.

                                        --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Sullivan, Bill" <sullivanbill@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The file FORTH on the disk is the object file that sets up the Forth
                                        > environment, includes the AL forth support routines, and loads
                                        FORTHSAVE
                                        > which is a binary image of the entire TI FORTH kernel.
                                      • Sullivan, Bill
                                        I ll see if I can explain this in very simple terms. You can format diskettes to as large as your drive and controllers will allow for use with TI-FORTH, but
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                          I'll see if I can explain this in very simple terms. You can format
                                          diskettes to as large as your drive and controllers will allow for use
                                          with TI-FORTH, but understand that everything on the original
                                          distribution diskettes only support SSSD or 90K no matter the type of
                                          drive in use (5.25" or 3.5"). If you're moving everything to a PC with
                                          TI emulator then you should use the largest capacity drive you have for
                                          this purpose (unless porting to an emulator that only supports SSSD/DSSD
                                          or DSDD). You can also modify FORTH-COPY (on SCR#39, line #14) to use
                                          OFFSET @ for the high value and 1 for the low value of the DO LOOP.
                                          Copying SCR#0 from a SSSD to another diskette of larger capacity will
                                          destroy the true capacity values of the target diskette. DISK_LO should
                                          be set to 1, so that the normal process of copying BLOCKS from DSK2 to
                                          DSK1 should give an error on any attempt to write SCR#0 on DSK1.

                                          You should use SMOVE if you need to go in the other direction. Just be
                                          sure that you don't overwrite the SCR# that would be equivalent to SCR#0
                                          if the target diskette was in drive 0 (DSK1). You can also copy
                                          additional SCREENS/BLOCKS to the larger diskette from the smaller drive
                                          by changing the diskette in the samaller drive, and copy to SCR#s higher
                                          than 90 or 180, etc. The next problem will be more difficult to deal
                                          with in this manner. TI99-PC would normally not copy all the sectors on
                                          this drive (Paolo has a fix for this, but hasn't distributed it because
                                          it hasn't been verified yet), because we haven't marked all sectors
                                          used. If you know how you could do this with a sector editor or with TI
                                          FORTH. I have a Forth word in my system that will do it by creating a
                                          SYS-SCRN file of what ever size I need to make the diskette appear to be
                                          full to any TI Disk Manager program or TI99-PC.

                                          Fortunately, there is a way to make TI99-PC do this now, provided you
                                          have the most recent version, by making a TI99-PC .IMG file from this
                                          diskette, then importing that .IMG file to a V9T9.DSK image file or
                                          PC99.DSK image file as the case may be rather than the one step method
                                          that will fail to copy the sectors not marked as used.

                                          Bill

                                          rgminutillo wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thanks Bill.
                                          >
                                          > So here's where I'm at with FORTH. I'm trying to recover my old TI
                                          > FORTH skills for no other reason than to be able to look again and
                                          > figure out some old FORTH code I wrote. I've made some progress, but I
                                          > have a problem which I'm not sure how to solve.
                                          >
                                          > My original system, like all of yours, featured 5 1/4" floppy
                                          > diskettes. My main 'reconstituted' system, however, uses 3 1/2"
                                          > diskatte drives. In my PEB, DSK1 and DSK2 are 3 1/4" while DSK3 and
                                          > DSK4 are 5 1/4". That's all well and good.
                                          >
                                          > My old 'fixed' FORTH system diskette BLOADS my customized context
                                          > vocabulary, which among other things defines DISK_SIZE at 180. (I
                                          > don't think FORTH did double density, but it did support double
                                          > sided.) Anyway, there are 720 sectors and 180 screens on that
                                          > diskette. But the diskette still identifies itself as SSSD, and
                                          > SYS-SCRNS is 313 only sectors long, not 673. So when I use TI99-PC to
                                          > make an image I lose the sectors on side 2 that have SCREENS 90 - 179;
                                          > my images don't have those screens and the 3 1/4" diskettes I make
                                          > from those images lack them as well.
                                          >
                                          > As has been mentioned, FORTH itself just accesses sectors, and with
                                          > DISK_SIZE set at 180 FORTH expects SCREENS 0 - 179 on DSK1, 180 - 359
                                          > on DSK2 360 - 539 on DSK3, etc. So I boot with my incomplete 3 1/4" in
                                          > DSK1 and I put the original, complete 5 1/4" diskette in DSK3, and I
                                          > can see SCREENS 449 - 539. So they are there.
                                          >
                                          > Although the manual states that you MUST set the variable DISK_HI to
                                          > the correct multiple of DISK_SIZE, I found that I could access sector
                                          > numbers higher that DISK_HI. So it should have been simple to used
                                          > SMOVE (actually a conservative series of SMOVE commands) to transfer
                                          > screens from my original 180 screen 5 1/4" floppy in DSK3 to my 'new'
                                          > 3 1/2" floppy in DSK1. Unfortunately, it didn't work, at first.
                                          >
                                          > The problem was that my 3 1/2" diskette had been originally formatted
                                          > as SSSD by Paolo's TI99-PC program, and the sector marks for the
                                          > second side were never, ever written to the disk. When I tried to
                                          > write to SCREEN 90 or higher I got 'disk error.'
                                          >
                                          > So I took another 3 1/2" diskette and pre-formatted it as DSSD. After
                                          > that, when Paolo's program re-wrote the SSSD image onto that diskette,
                                          > it left the second side intact, including sector marks. So Now I has a
                                          > FORTH diskette that could write to sectors 90 - 179, and my SMOVE
                                          > commands worked as designed.
                                          >
                                          > I imagine that's how I made the original 'master' 5 1/4" floppy: I
                                          > must have pre-formatted it with DM as DSSD, then used FORTH-COPY to
                                          > copy the original SSSD master onto it.
                                          >
                                          > Alas I've still ended up with a diskette that thinks it's SSSD, so I
                                          > still can't use Paolo's neat utility to make a complete 720 sector
                                          > image copy.
                                          >
                                          > I'd much rather be dealing with images and emulators than 'real'
                                          > floppies and my ancient hardware, so I think the next thing I'll try
                                          > is to hack the header of a copy of my now-complete FORTH system
                                          > diskette and tell it that it's DSSD. I'm hoping that Paolo's program
                                          > will then dutifully copy what it believes are 'empty' sectors on side
                                          > two, and I'll have a complete image.
                                          >
                                          > RGM
                                          >
                                          > By the way, Bill, I must have figured out (or read) how to redirect
                                          > SWCH to PIO instead of RS232/2, because my restored master diskette
                                          > does just that. And I had either forgotten about or never known about
                                          > the DR1, DR2... commands. However, I still would have had to use the
                                          > absolute screen numbers to make the SMOVE commands work. And of course
                                          > ALL of your diskettes have to be formatted to the same size, you can't
                                          > mix and match SSSD and DSDD.
                                          >
                                          > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ti99-4a%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > "Sullivan, Bill" <sullivanbill@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > The file FORTH on the disk is the object file that sets up the Forth
                                          > > environment, includes the AL forth support routines, and loads
                                          > FORTHSAVE
                                          > > which is a binary image of the entire TI FORTH kernel.
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • rgminutillo
                                          Bill, Actually, hacking the headers on my recovered FORTH diskette proved pretty simple. I changed bytes 0A and 0B to reflect the DSSD sector count, and
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 6, 2008
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                                            Bill,

                                            Actually, hacking the headers on my recovered FORTH diskette proved
                                            pretty simple. I changed bytes >0A and >0B to reflect the DSSD sector
                                            count, and changed byte >12 to >02 to mark the diskette as two sided.

                                            Interesting that I didn't have to modify the bitmap: it was already
                                            maxed out to show diskette full.

                                            I stopped at that point and made sure TI99-PC treated it as a double
                                            sided diskette and copied all the sectors with their newly added
                                            SCREENs. It did, no problem.

                                            I then hacked bytes >0E and >0F of the SYS-SCRNS header (sector >4) to
                                            >02A0 to change the sector count of the file. I didn't bother to
                                            modify the segment list for the file, which I probably should have,
                                            for completeness, but that shouldn't bother FORTH at all. The main
                                            point was to create a 3.5" duplicate of my old double sided 5.25"
                                            FORTH master diskette, and to be able to make a V9T9 image of it, and
                                            that, finally, is done.

                                            You'll probably be horrified to know that my old master diskette
                                            over-wrote many of the original SCREENS with a BSAVEd image of my
                                            personal favorite environment, leaving only a few critical screens
                                            (along with the 64SUPPORT editor) which could be 'forgotten' and
                                            reloaded as required. so the original screens for SWCH and/or
                                            FORTH-COPY may or may not be on the diskette. They can be added, of
                                            course.

                                            The main thing I was aiming to recover was a bit-mapped game I had
                                            written in FORTH (terrible game) called BLUEBIRD OF HAPPINESS which
                                            had lots of nice sprites, joystick control, and a bitmap playing
                                            field; 20 SCREENs of code, 7 SCREENs of bitmaps, and a binary loader
                                            SCREEN. It works, even in emulation, but it pretty much hoses up the
                                            system on exit (just like I remembered it!)

                                            Ah! the joys of nostalgia computing. I'll probably revise my web
                                            site's TI pages (long overdue) and maybe post the image of this
                                            diskette so that everyone else can use a joystick to fly a flapping
                                            over a running dog, and push the fire button to drop an (egg?) on it.

                                            RGM
                                          • Sullivan, Bill
                                            I understand. I stated if you have that capability then do it that way. I usually try to provide methods that can be understood by newbies and those that
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 6, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I understand. I stated if you have that capability then do it that
                                              way. I usually try to provide methods that can be understood by newbies
                                              and those that come back after years of being away. Not everyone is
                                              interested in how a disk maintains the data that is stored on it or
                                              accessed from it.

                                              Yes the bitmap would be full as it was on the original disk because the
                                              SYS-SCRNS file allocated the remainder of available space no matter how
                                              the disk was formatted.

                                              As you say TI FORTH doesn't care about those niceties, just that the
                                              disk is TI formatted to the capacity or higher than specified by the
                                              value in DISK_HI.

                                              You're right! I am horrified that you BSAVE'd over original source
                                              SCREENS when you could have just used a freshly formatted disk for this
                                              purpose. I use a separate disk now in the development of X4th99 (not
                                              yet to the point of using file i/o for this purpose or I would be using
                                              files on a hard disk instead), and I use SCREEN #1 as to what is BSAVE'd
                                              where and how many SCREENS were used for the BSAVE. I also include the
                                              HERE address before and after the BSAVE as some are BSAVE's of utility
                                              code in SuperCart space rather than user dictionary space.

                                              As most everyone here can tell you I'm not much into games, so I don't
                                              contribute mush to those endeavors--not my thing as some say.

                                              Bill S

                                              rgminutillo wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Bill,
                                              >
                                              > Actually, hacking the headers on my recovered FORTH diskette proved
                                              > pretty simple. I changed bytes >0A and >0B to reflect the DSSD sector
                                              > count, and changed byte >12 to >02 to mark the diskette as two sided.
                                              >
                                              > Interesting that I didn't have to modify the bitmap: it was already
                                              > maxed out to show diskette full.
                                              >
                                              > I stopped at that point and made sure TI99-PC treated it as a double
                                              > sided diskette and copied all the sectors with their newly added
                                              > SCREENs. It did, no problem.
                                              >
                                              > I then hacked bytes >0E and >0F of the SYS-SCRNS header (sector >4) to
                                              > >02A0 to change the sector count of the file. I didn't bother to
                                              > modify the segment list for the file, which I probably should have,
                                              > for completeness, but that shouldn't bother FORTH at all. The main
                                              > point was to create a 3.5" duplicate of my old double sided 5.25"
                                              > FORTH master diskette, and to be able to make a V9T9 image of it, and
                                              > that, finally, is done.
                                              >
                                              > You'll probably be horrified to know that my old master diskette
                                              > over-wrote many of the original SCREENS with a BSAVEd image of my
                                              > personal favorite environment, leaving only a few critical screens
                                              > (along with the 64SUPPORT editor) which could be 'forgotten' and
                                              > reloaded as required. so the original screens for SWCH and/or
                                              > FORTH-COPY may or may not be on the diskette. They can be added, of
                                              > course.
                                              >
                                              > The main thing I was aiming to recover was a bit-mapped game I had
                                              > written in FORTH (terrible game) called BLUEBIRD OF HAPPINESS which
                                              > had lots of nice sprites, joystick control, and a bitmap playing
                                              > field; 20 SCREENs of code, 7 SCREENs of bitmaps, and a binary loader
                                              > SCREEN. It works, even in emulation, but it pretty much hoses up the
                                              > system on exit (just like I remembered it!)
                                              >
                                              > Ah! the joys of nostalgia computing. I'll probably revise my web
                                              > site's TI pages (long overdue) and maybe post the image of this
                                              > diskette so that everyone else can use a joystick to fly a flapping
                                              > over a running dog, and push the fire button to drop an (egg?) on it.
                                              >
                                              > RGM
                                              >
                                              >
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