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Re: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware

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  • twills44@cox.net
    Dan, This is a great analogy you came up with. Mine if I use it elsewhere? Tom
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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      Dan,

      This is a great analogy you came up with. Mine if I use it elsewhere?

      Tom

      >
      > From: Dan Olson <dano@...>
      > Date: 2006/02/01 Wed AM 12:21:28 EST
      > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
      >
      > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
      > > gigantic
      > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
      > > software.
      > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
      > > will
      > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
      >
      > While I agree with you, I think the people out there holding on to old
      > software wanting to get top dollar are a small minorty. I suspect that
      > most people who have written TI programs, for example, lost interest in
      > the platform many years ago and figure there's no interest, or just plain
      > forgot about something they did 25 years ago, if they're still around. I
      > suspect many of the software companies of the era have either folded, or
      > the current owners/management haven't a clue what is owned or just don't
      > care and there's no money in it. To use the car example, it's like a
      > salvage yard that has a '52 Nash covered in berry bushes that's been there
      > 30 years, none of the currently employees of the business were around back
      > then an nobody has walked in the door looking to buy a '52 Nash.....and if
      > someone did they probably wouldn't know they had it or how much they
      > should sell it for.
      >
      > Dan
      >
      >
      >
      > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
      > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
      > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
      > Send abuse reports to abuse@...
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • roundfilesilver
      It reminds me of when The Shadow was pulled from the internet. The copyright holder went around and sytematically ordered nearly all the fan sites to shut
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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        It reminds me of when "The Shadow" was pulled from the internet. The copyright holder
        went around and sytematically ordered nearly all the fan sites to shut down, and a
        company reprinting the novels had to stop making any more. Now nothing is happening,
        and they haven't used the property since 1994, other than some minor appearances in
        comic books. There are no plans to use the property, or reprint the novels.

        Glad I downloaded em when it was still legit.
        >
        > While I agree with you, I think the people out there holding on to old
        > software wanting to get top dollar are a small minorty. I suspect that
        > most people who have written TI programs, for example, lost interest in
        > the platform many years ago and figure there's no interest, or just plain
        > forgot about something they did 25 years ago, if they're still around. I
        > suspect many of the software companies of the era have either folded, or
        > the current owners/management haven't a clue what is owned or just don't
        > care and there's no money in it. To use the car example, it's like a
        > salvage yard that has a '52 Nash covered in berry bushes that's been there
        > 30 years, none of the currently employees of the business were around back
        > then an nobody has walked in the door looking to buy a '52 Nash.....and if
        > someone did they probably wouldn't know they had it or how much they
        > should sell it for.
        >
        > Dan
        >
      • James M. Postle, Sr.
        Just what the world needs now is another commitee. Members to locate and seek for the release from the many holders of the software copyrighted titles which
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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          Just what the world needs now is another commitee. Members to
          locate and seek for the release from the many holders of the
          software copyrighted titles which have been long ago parked at the
          side of the road for use of newer and better(?) programs.

          More than that, post the information to a file section at this
          website as to what is released or not. Would that not keep the
          Copyright infringement drummers in at bay. And... Maybe those who
          hold other copyrights may volenteer to release this goldmine of past
          memories.

          Items of no value to anyone other than those who visit this
          website. Now, just how much is a program worth of and for the five
          hundred plus visitiors to this site of which are the only ones in
          the "world" of need for the use of such?

          All the world wants to tell us what we can't use, but is it not now
          time to post a list as to what is currently in Public Domain.
          And... To seek what is not and see if it can be moved there. I
          know this would be a large tasking, but at least we would not
          revisit this very subject every quarter.

          Of all the Copyright posting done at this website in the last two
          years, the energy spent could well have had a project like this
          completed by now. A list to add the release information of the
          programs from by-gone years.

          Just a February 2006 Thought...

          Postle



          --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, <twills44@c...> wrote:
          >
          > Dan,
          >
          > This is a great analogy you came up with. Mine if I use it
          elsewhere?
          >
          > Tom
          >
          > >
          > > From: Dan Olson <dano@a...>
          > > Date: 2006/02/01 Wed AM 12:21:28 EST
          > > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
          > >
          > > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
          > > > gigantic
          > > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
          > > > software.
          > > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
          > > > will
          > > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
          > >
          > > While I agree with you, I think the people out there holding on
          to old
          > > software wanting to get top dollar are a small minorty. I
          suspect that
          > > most people who have written TI programs, for example, lost
          interest in
          > > the platform many years ago and figure there's no interest, or
          just plain
          > > forgot about something they did 25 years ago, if they're still
          around. I
          > > suspect many of the software companies of the era have either
          folded, or
          > > the current owners/management haven't a clue what is owned or
          just don't
          > > care and there's no money in it. To use the car example, it's
          like a
          > > salvage yard that has a '52 Nash covered in berry bushes that's
          been there
          > > 30 years, none of the currently employees of the business were
          around back
          > > then an nobody has walked in the door looking to buy a '52
          Nash.....and if
          > > someone did they probably wouldn't know they had it or how much
          they
          > > should sell it for.
          > >
          > > Dan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
          > > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
          > > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at
          http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
          > > Send abuse reports to abuse@t...
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • roundfilesilver
          I think a website should be built. Good idea. James
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I think a website should be built. Good idea.

            James
            >
            > Just what the world needs now is another commitee. Members to
            > locate and seek for the release from the many holders of the
            > software copyrighted titles which have been long ago parked at the
            > side of the road for use of newer and better(?) programs.
            >
            > More than that, post the information to a file section at this
            > website as to what is released or not. Would that not keep the
            > Copyright infringement drummers in at bay. And... Maybe those who
            > hold other copyrights may volenteer to release this goldmine of past
            > memories.
            >
            > Items of no value to anyone other than those who visit this
            > website. Now, just how much is a program worth of and for the five
            > hundred plus visitiors to this site of which are the only ones in
            > the "world" of need for the use of such?
            >
            > All the world wants to tell us what we can't use, but is it not now
            > time to post a list as to what is currently in Public Domain.
            > And... To seek what is not and see if it can be moved there. I
            > know this would be a large tasking, but at least we would not
            > revisit this very subject every quarter.
            >
            > Of all the Copyright posting done at this website in the last two
            > years, the energy spent could well have had a project like this
            > completed by now. A list to add the release information of the
            > programs from by-gone years.
            >
            > Just a February 2006 Thought...
            >
            > Postle
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, <twills44@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dan,
            > >
            > > This is a great analogy you came up with. Mine if I use it
            > elsewhere?
            > >
            > > Tom
            > >
            > > >
            > > > From: Dan Olson <dano@a...>
            > > > Date: 2006/02/01 Wed AM 12:21:28 EST
            > > > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
            > > >
            > > > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
            > > > > gigantic
            > > > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
            > > > > software.
            > > > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
            > > > > will
            > > > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
            > > >
            > > > While I agree with you, I think the people out there holding on
            > to old
            > > > software wanting to get top dollar are a small minorty. I
            > suspect that
            > > > most people who have written TI programs, for example, lost
            > interest in
            > > > the platform many years ago and figure there's no interest, or
            > just plain
            > > > forgot about something they did 25 years ago, if they're still
            > around. I
            > > > suspect many of the software companies of the era have either
            > folded, or
            > > > the current owners/management haven't a clue what is owned or
            > just don't
            > > > care and there's no money in it. To use the car example, it's
            > like a
            > > > salvage yard that has a '52 Nash covered in berry bushes that's
            > been there
            > > > 30 years, none of the currently employees of the business were
            > around back
            > > > then an nobody has walked in the door looking to buy a '52
            > Nash.....and if
            > > > someone did they probably wouldn't know they had it or how much
            > they
            > > > should sell it for.
            > > >
            > > > Dan
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
            > > > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
            > > > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at
            > http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
            > > > Send abuse reports to abuse@t...
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Hal Shanafield
            The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the 52 Nash, and has the right to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to steal it, you can.
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
              to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
              steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
              because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
              start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
              copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
              retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
              written, unless I have sold those rights to the various publications
              in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my pieces
              without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
              somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
              software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
              doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
              their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
              little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in high
              moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison," we
              are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
              --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- twills44@... wrote:
              >
              > > My observation here is that most of this is really
              > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
              > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
              > > more insight.
              >
              > Old software is much like an old car.
              >
              > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
              > behind his
              > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
              > ain't for
              > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
              > year!"
              > as it rusts into the ground.
              >
              > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
              > that
              > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
              > claim it's
              > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
              > decide to
              > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
              > there,
              > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
              > appreciate it
              > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
              > the
              > few of them that still use it.
              >
              > If it's not making the company or author any money and
              > has
              > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
              > penny
              > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
              > into the
              > mists of time?
              >
              > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
              > program, they'd
              > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
              > to be
              > bought. Not making old software available to be
              > purchased,
              > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
              > net is
              > a bit hypocritical.
              >
              > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
              > Megagames titles
              > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
              > how many
              > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
              > old software
              > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
              > really
              > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
              > what
              > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
              > eBay auction
              > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
              > never
              > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
              > not
              > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
              > that
              > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
              > worth $29.95
              > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
              > _might_ buy it
              > at $5.95, might not.
              >
              > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
              > gigantic
              > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
              > software.
              > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
              > will
              > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
              >
              > It will be total Fandemonium!
              > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
              > http://www.fandemonium.org
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • Matthew Hagerty
              I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access to that work due to
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.

                I'm all for people making money on their creations, by all means they
                should reap the fruits of their labors. But is it really unreasonable
                for someone to use 20 year old software after exhausting every means
                to find and contact the copyright owner of the work?

                Also, old car analogies are fine, except software is different than an
                old car sitting outside someone's house. In the case of the car, you
                can knock on the door and talk to the owner, or at lease go to the
                county and find out who owns the land and contact them that way. With
                software it's different. If all you have is a name that's 20 years
                old, then you are basically dealing with a search that is as difficult
                as finding a missing person.

                My two cents.

                Matthew

                --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield" <hals12@...> wrote:
                >
                > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
                > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
                > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
                > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
                > retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
                > written, unless I have sold those rights to the various publications
                > in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my pieces
                > without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
                > somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
                > software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
                > doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
                > their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
                > little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in high
                > moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison," we
                > are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
                > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- twills44@ wrote:
                > >
                > > > My observation here is that most of this is really
                > > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
                > > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
                > > > more insight.
                > >
                > > Old software is much like an old car.
                > >
                > > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
                > > behind his
                > > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
                > > ain't for
                > > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
                > > year!"
                > > as it rusts into the ground.
                > >
                > > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
                > > that
                > > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
                > > claim it's
                > > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
                > > decide to
                > > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
                > > there,
                > > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
                > > appreciate it
                > > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
                > > the
                > > few of them that still use it.
                > >
                > > If it's not making the company or author any money and
                > > has
                > > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
                > > penny
                > > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
                > > into the
                > > mists of time?
                > >
                > > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
                > > program, they'd
                > > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
                > > to be
                > > bought. Not making old software available to be
                > > purchased,
                > > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
                > > net is
                > > a bit hypocritical.
                > >
                > > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
                > > Megagames titles
                > > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
                > > how many
                > > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
                > > old software
                > > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
                > > really
                > > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
                > > what
                > > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
                > > eBay auction
                > > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
                > > never
                > > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
                > > not
                > > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
                > > that
                > > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
                > > worth $29.95
                > > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
                > > _might_ buy it
                > > at $5.95, might not.
                > >
                > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                > > gigantic
                > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                > > software.
                > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                > > will
                > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                > >
                > > It will be total Fandemonium!
                > > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                > > http://www.fandemonium.org
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                > >
                >
              • James M. Postle, Sr.
                I know what I have is what I paid for once. To have it on a MASS Transfer Format would be wonderful. So if I paid for my right to use a program, would it be
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  I know what I have is what I paid for once. To have it on a MASS
                  Transfer Format would be wonderful. So if I paid for my right to
                  use a program, would it be stealing if I again received the same
                  material in a different format that was neither available nor even
                  thought about at the time of the origial copyright.

                  I don't think it would be stealing if I received any of the 208
                  programs and more counting Disks and Tapes I have, in a different
                  format. The author was already paid for "my" use of these program
                  once and by me personally. Anything above that he would be stealing
                  from me...

                  No one stated today to use any of the programs without permission.
                  I suggested we post at this website a listing of what is known to be
                  Public Domain and what is not. Most of that job is completed with
                  the many Module list which have been put forth within the community.

                  Further, I would think we should put forth a concentrated effort to
                  find the authors or copyright holders and see if the programs are
                  available for release to Public Domain and the TI-99/4A community
                  or "NOT".

                  I am almost sixty three years old. I have yet to steal anything
                  from anyone. I have spent the last two years or more in Divorce
                  Court trying to get what is and was legally mine before the
                  marriage. California and my wife's lawyer have some funny notions
                  about what Seperate Property is. So I know about possession and
                  individual rights. And... Most of all, I know about those who
                  don't tell the truth to make their life better on "my" dime.

                  Point being, the advancement of the TI-99/4A community is on hold
                  until the release of the programs. Or: Some think we are. Some of
                  this may well be needless. Posting who owns what and/or what and
                  where I might send some monies to, to pay for my use of the program
                  is a good thing.

                  It is an interesting point being the community is about two break
                  away from old media transfer to the more current methods of mass
                  information transfer.

                  Having a message posted on occasion does not support or provide
                  fully for the TI community's needs. A central location with an
                  accepted Public Domain list reinforced with a letter from an author
                  would work nicely.

                  I can just about promise you, I am one of the very, very few who
                  ever paid Tony McGovern any monies for FunnelWeb and its upgrades.
                  It may not have been what the McGoverens felt their work was worth,
                  but I did send money down under to Tony.

                  So if anyone is using FunnelWeb or one of the Disk Manager Programs
                  and never paid for its use, now is the time to post an address where
                  the monies can be sent.

                  So what is purposed here by me is a dual sided sword. One side
                  tells the community what is free and can be used without legal
                  actions.

                  The other side cuts to and expains the dues which may need to be
                  paid to the author or copyright holder for the use of a program.
                  Hopefully, also where to make contact and payment. A WIN WIN
                  situation for everyone.

                  Think about where we would be today: If this website took a pro
                  active interest in listing of software and its owners and points of
                  contact. No One gets paid if there is no place to send the monies
                  too. Or... Ask for permission for and pay of use.

                  Respectfully,

                  Postle

                  --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield" <hals12@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the
                  right
                  > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want
                  to
                  > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                  > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying
                  to
                  > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                  > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
                  > retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
                  > written, unless I have sold those rights to the various
                  publications
                  > in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my
                  pieces
                  > without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
                  > somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
                  > software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
                  > doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
                  > their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
                  > little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in
                  high
                  > moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison,"
                  we
                  > are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
                  > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- twills44@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > My observation here is that most of this is really
                  > > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
                  > > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
                  > > > more insight.
                  > >
                  > > Old software is much like an old car.
                  > >
                  > > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
                  > > behind his
                  > > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
                  > > ain't for
                  > > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
                  > > year!"
                  > > as it rusts into the ground.
                  > >
                  > > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
                  > > that
                  > > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
                  > > claim it's
                  > > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
                  > > decide to
                  > > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
                  > > there,
                  > > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
                  > > appreciate it
                  > > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
                  > > the
                  > > few of them that still use it.
                  > >
                  > > If it's not making the company or author any money and
                  > > has
                  > > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
                  > > penny
                  > > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
                  > > into the
                  > > mists of time?
                  > >
                  > > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
                  > > program, they'd
                  > > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
                  > > to be
                  > > bought. Not making old software available to be
                  > > purchased,
                  > > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
                  > > net is
                  > > a bit hypocritical.
                  > >
                  > > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
                  > > Megagames titles
                  > > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
                  > > how many
                  > > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
                  > > old software
                  > > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
                  > > really
                  > > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
                  > > what
                  > > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
                  > > eBay auction
                  > > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
                  > > never
                  > > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
                  > > not
                  > > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
                  > > that
                  > > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
                  > > worth $29.95
                  > > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
                  > > _might_ buy it
                  > > at $5.95, might not.
                  > >
                  > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                  > > gigantic
                  > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                  > > software.
                  > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                  > > will
                  > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                  > >
                  > > It will be total Fandemonium!
                  > > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                  > > http://www.fandemonium.org
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  >
                • rmcarmany@aol.com
                  Tony is still at the address on the Fairware notice. Tony McGovern 215 Grinsell St. Kotara, NSW Australia Will has married and moved out. The last I heard, he
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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                    Tony is still at the address on the Fairware notice.

                    Tony McGovern
                    215 Grinsell St.
                    Kotara, NSW Australia

                    Will has married and moved out. The last I heard, he was in the Silicon
                    Valley (CA).

                    Bob Carmany


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Keith Bergman
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      <I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                      some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                      to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                      created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                      some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                      that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.>

                      <snip>

                      I think what Hal is saying (and what I agree with) is that it doesn't really
                      matter WHAT you, or I, or anyone but the original author, thinks.
                      Statements like "they should not deny access" and "expecting current prices
                      is unreasonable" are your opinions. No matter how commonly held they may
                      be, the creator of the software has the right to be as "unreasonable" as he
                      wants. He made it, he owns it, and he can set up a lemonade stand out front
                      of his house and sell shrinkwrapped copies of it in clamshell boxes with
                      full-color artwork for $99.99 if he wants. Our opinions of his choices are
                      just that - opinions - and have no bearing on anything, really.

                      What isn't being said here is that we're all being pretty academic on this
                      point, and mainly because the longtime "disk swap" between friends and on
                      BBS's is now becoming more transparent and public as we move the 99/4a
                      programming canon into the new media. The few 99'ers I've met personally in
                      the past have all had scads of copied software, Xeroxed docs, etc. Some of
                      them had file cabinet drawers full of more stuff than they were ever even
                      gonna look at or use. I think if anything, some of the authors from back in
                      the mid-80's and early 90's that balk at releasing their software to PD are
                      doing it out of a knee-jerk reaction to that earlier piracy.

                      Think about it - they busted their hump on Program XYZ, released it, sold a
                      piddling few copies, watched it get copied and distributed six ways to
                      Sunday, had to deal with the complaints of irate users (many who didn't pay
                      for it)... then years later, out of the woodwork, people start exhorting
                      them to dump their work into the public domain "for the good of the
                      community." Their opinion may be "what did the TI community ever do for
                      me?" And they may have a point, not that there's anything to be done about
                      it now.

                      Just because you want something doesn't mean it's the author's obligation to
                      give it to you, "reasonable" or not. And frankly, it's not like you aren't
                      gonna be able to get it some way or another.

                      Keith



                      Matthew

                      --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield" <hals12@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
                      > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
                      > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                      > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
                      > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                      > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
                      > retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
                      > written, unless I have sold those rights to the various publications
                      > in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my pieces
                      > without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
                      > somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
                      > software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
                      > doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
                      > their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
                      > little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in high
                      > moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison," we
                      > are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
                      > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- twills44@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > My observation here is that most of this is really
                      > > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
                      > > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
                      > > > more insight.
                      > >
                      > > Old software is much like an old car.
                      > >
                      > > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
                      > > behind his
                      > > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
                      > > ain't for
                      > > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
                      > > year!"
                      > > as it rusts into the ground.
                      > >
                      > > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
                      > > that
                      > > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
                      > > claim it's
                      > > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
                      > > decide to
                      > > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
                      > > there,
                      > > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
                      > > appreciate it
                      > > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
                      > > the
                      > > few of them that still use it.
                      > >
                      > > If it's not making the company or author any money and
                      > > has
                      > > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
                      > > penny
                      > > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
                      > > into the
                      > > mists of time?
                      > >
                      > > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
                      > > program, they'd
                      > > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
                      > > to be
                      > > bought. Not making old software available to be
                      > > purchased,
                      > > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
                      > > net is
                      > > a bit hypocritical.
                      > >
                      > > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
                      > > Megagames titles
                      > > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
                      > > how many
                      > > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
                      > > old software
                      > > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
                      > > really
                      > > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
                      > > what
                      > > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
                      > > eBay auction
                      > > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
                      > > never
                      > > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
                      > > not
                      > > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
                      > > that
                      > > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
                      > > worth $29.95
                      > > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
                      > > _might_ buy it
                      > > at $5.95, might not.
                      > >
                      > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                      > > gigantic
                      > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                      > > software.
                      > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                      > > will
                      > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                      > >
                      > > It will be total Fandemonium!
                      > > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                      > > http://www.fandemonium.org
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      >






                      For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                      Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                      Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                      Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Tom Wills
                      Well, the author can sit on it if he desires, as he does own it. I agree that I think it is stupid to thing to do. One reason some are sitting on it is in the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well, the author can sit on it if he desires, as he does own it. I agree
                        that I think it is stupid to thing to do. One reason some are sitting on it
                        is in the early days a lot of software was pirated. So the authors, in
                        effect, said "Screw You!" and took it off the market. We are now reaping the
                        rewards of those who did all the pirating.

                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: Matthew Hagerty
                        Date: 02/01/06 17:27:30
                        To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware

                        I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                        some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                        to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                        created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                        some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                        that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.

                        I'm all for people making money on their creations, by all means they
                        should reap the fruits of their labors. But is it really unreasonable
                        for someone to use 20 year old software after exhausting every means
                        to find and contact the copyright owner of the work?

                        Also, old car analogies are fine, except software is different than an
                        old car sitting outside someone's house. In the case of the car, you
                        can knock on the door and talk to the owner, or at lease go to the
                        county and find out who owns the land and contact them that way. With
                        software it's different. If all you have is a name that's 20 years
                        old, then you are basically dealing with a search that is as difficult
                        as finding a missing person.

                        My two cents.

                        Matthew

                        --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield" <hals12@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
                        > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
                        > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                        > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
                        > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                        > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
                        > retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
                        > written, unless I have sold those rights to the various publications
                        > in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my pieces
                        > without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
                        > somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
                        > software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
                        > doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
                        > their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
                        > little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in high
                        > moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison," we
                        > are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
                        > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- twills44@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > My observation here is that most of this is really
                        > > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
                        > > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
                        > > > more insight.
                        > >
                        > > Old software is much like an old car.
                        > >
                        > > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
                        > > behind his
                        > > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
                        > > ain't for
                        > > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
                        > > year!"
                        > > as it rusts into the ground.
                        > >
                        > > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
                        > > that
                        > > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
                        > > claim it's
                        > > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
                        > > decide to
                        > > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
                        > > there,
                        > > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
                        > > appreciate it
                        > > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
                        > > the
                        > > few of them that still use it.
                        > >
                        > > If it's not making the company or author any money and
                        > > has
                        > > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
                        > > penny
                        > > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
                        > > into the
                        > > mists of time?
                        > >
                        > > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
                        > > program, they'd
                        > > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
                        > > to be
                        > > bought. Not making old software available to be
                        > > purchased,
                        > > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
                        > > net is
                        > > a bit hypocritical.
                        > >
                        > > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
                        > > Megagames titles
                        > > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
                        > > how many
                        > > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
                        > > old software
                        > > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
                        > > really
                        > > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
                        > > what
                        > > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
                        > > eBay auction
                        > > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
                        > > never
                        > > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
                        > > not
                        > > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
                        > > that
                        > > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
                        > > worth $29.95
                        > > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
                        > > _might_ buy it
                        > > at $5.95, might not.
                        > >
                        > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                        > > gigantic
                        > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                        > > software.
                        > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                        > > will
                        > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                        > >
                        > > It will be total Fandemonium!
                        > > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                        > > http://www.fandemonium.org
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________________________
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        >






                        For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                        Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                        Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                        Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                        Yahoo! Groups Links







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • TI Los
                        Bill Gates would agree with you too.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Bill Gates would agree with you too.


                          Tom Wills wrote:
                          > So the authors, in effect, said "Screw You!" and took it off the market. We are now reaping the
                          > rewards of those who did all the pirating.
                          >
                          > -------Original Message-------
                          >
                          > From: Matthew Hagerty
                          > Date: 02/01/06 17:27:30
                          > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
                          >
                          > I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                          > some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                          > to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                          > created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                          > some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                          > that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.
                          >
                        • Walid Maalouli
                          In a community such as the TI one where there is hardly any commercial software that is less than 10 years old, and where there is practically no meaningful
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a community such as the TI one where there is hardly any commercial
                            software that is less than 10 years old, and where there is
                            practically no meaningful opportunity to make money on new TI
                            software, this whole discussion is rather moot.
                            Yes, we can argue about intellectual property rights until we are blue
                            in the face, but as far as I am concerned I will continue to make
                            available as much TI game software as I can manage on the
                            tigameshelf.net website because it would be an absolute shame to let
                            all this body of work sink into oblivion. If a copyright holder has an
                            issue with that, all he/she has to do is contact me and their software
                            piece will be removed and promptly forgotten. On the other hand, I
                            absolutely will not post any software which is still beeing marketed
                            and sold, not that I have seen any in recent memory...
                            At the last two Chicago Faires I have attended, there was NO software
                            on sale by an original author or publisher.
                            In the end, no one is making any money from this (I actually pay money
                            to keep the site up): it's just my way of recognizing present and past
                            TI programmers and keeping them in the limelight a little longer...

                            Walid
                          • Dan Olson
                            It s all yours, copyright and all :) Dan
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It's all yours, copyright and all :)

                              Dan


                              On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 twills44@... wrote:

                              > Dan,
                              >
                              > This is a great analogy you came up with. Mine if I use it elsewhere?
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >>
                              >> From: Dan Olson <dano@...>
                              >> Date: 2006/02/01 Wed AM 12:21:28 EST
                              >> To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                              >> Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
                              >>
                              >>> The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                              >>> gigantic
                              >>> clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                              >>> software.
                              >>> The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                              >>> will
                              >>> never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                              >>
                              >> While I agree with you, I think the people out there holding on to old
                              >> software wanting to get top dollar are a small minorty. I suspect that
                              >> most people who have written TI programs, for example, lost interest in
                              >> the platform many years ago and figure there's no interest, or just plain
                              >> forgot about something they did 25 years ago, if they're still around. I
                              >> suspect many of the software companies of the era have either folded, or
                              >> the current owners/management haven't a clue what is owned or just don't
                              >> care and there's no money in it. To use the car example, it's like a
                              >> salvage yard that has a '52 Nash covered in berry bushes that's been there
                              >> 30 years, none of the currently employees of the business were around back
                              >> then an nobody has walked in the door looking to buy a '52 Nash.....and if
                              >> someone did they probably wouldn't know they had it or how much they
                              >> should sell it for.
                              >>
                              >> Dan
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                              >> Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                              >> Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                              >> Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                              > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                              > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                              > Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Dan Olson
                              ... At the risk of getting a little off topic, this is another example of where compairing software and a car doesn t work. If you steel the car, you ve taken
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Hal Shanafield wrote:

                                > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
                                > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
                                > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                                > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
                                > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                                > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I

                                At the risk of getting a little off topic, this is another example of
                                where compairing software and a car doesn't work. If you steel the car,
                                you've taken Farmer Brown's car and he'll never be able to restore and
                                enjoy it. Piracy is like having a giant car photocopier, now you've got
                                an exact duplicate of Farmer Brown's car, but he still has a copy sitting
                                in the field. Making copies without permission takes away the owner's
                                ability to make money from selling copies, but the owner still has the
                                origional.

                                Dan
                              • Dan Olson
                                ... You probably have to read the fine print but usually if you own a legal copy, you are able to make an archival copy on another media for your own use or
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > I know what I have is what I paid for once. To have it on a MASS
                                  > Transfer Format would be wonderful. So if I paid for my right to
                                  > use a program, would it be stealing if I again received the same
                                  > material in a different format that was neither available nor even
                                  > thought about at the time of the origial copyright.
                                  >
                                  > I don't think it would be stealing if I received any of the 208
                                  > programs and more counting Disks and Tapes I have, in a different
                                  > format. The author was already paid for "my" use of these program
                                  > once and by me personally. Anything above that he would be stealing
                                  > from me...

                                  You probably have to read the fine print but usually if you own a legal
                                  copy, you are able to make an "archival copy" on another media for your
                                  own use or backup purposes. Besides, almost all software you get now
                                  days, they expect that it'll get copied from the origional media to a hard
                                  drive when you install.

                                  Dan
                                • Gregg Eshelman
                                  Ever notice how when someone mentions how a copyright holder that chooses to do nothing with their work is just letting it go to waste, someone ALWAYS tries to
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Ever notice how when someone mentions how a copyright
                                    holder that chooses to do nothing with their work
                                    is just letting it go to waste, someone ALWAYS tries
                                    to claim the person that brought it up is saying
                                    that people should steal or copy it?

                                    DON'T PUT WORDS IN WHAT I WROTE THAT I DID NOT!

                                    I NEVER said that a program author that isn't offering
                                    it for sale should have it ripped off, stolen,
                                    "pirated" etc.

                                    To make it VERY SIMPLE for people who apparently can
                                    magically read words and meanings not written,

                                    Letting something you own rust away or gather dust
                                    in a file cabinet is a waste! Why not sell it
                                    (if it's a material object) or allow it to be copied
                                    and shared (for software)? It'll be enjoyed, restored,
                                    appreciated, used, and will make people happy.

                                    But if you choose to let what you have rot away, go
                                    ahead. You can't take it with you when you die.

                                    --- Dan Olson <dano@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Hal Shanafield wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52
                                    > Nash, and has the right
                                    > > to do anything he wants with it. It is his
                                    > property. If you want to
                                    > > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give
                                    > it to you just
                                    > > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot
                                    > simpler than trying to
                                    > > start an old car, but should we expect authors to
                                    > give up their
                                    > > copyrights just because they aren't making any
                                    > money from them? I
                                    >
                                    > At the risk of getting a little off topic, this is
                                    > another example of
                                    > where compairing software and a car doesn't work.
                                    > If you steel the car,
                                    > you've taken Farmer Brown's car and he'll never be
                                    > able to restore and
                                    > enjoy it. Piracy is like having a giant car
                                    > photocopier, now you've got
                                    > an exact duplicate of Farmer Brown's car, but he
                                    > still has a copy sitting
                                    > in the field. Making copies without permission
                                    > takes away the owner's
                                    > ability to make money from selling copies, but the
                                    > owner still has the
                                    > origional.

                                    It will be total Fandemonium!
                                    August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                                    http://www.fandemonium.org

                                    __________________________________________________
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                                  • Dan Olson
                                    ... I hope you didn t think that I was somehow suggesting you said otherwise, as you replied to my message. I was just pointing out that software can be
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                      > DON'T PUT WORDS IN WHAT I WROTE THAT I DID NOT!
                                      >
                                      > I NEVER said that a program author that isn't offering
                                      > it for sale should have it ripped off, stolen,
                                      > "pirated" etc.

                                      I hope you didn't think that I was somehow suggesting you said otherwise,
                                      as you replied to my message. I was just pointing out that software can
                                      be duplicated in such a way that the owner doesn't wake up one morning
                                      to find their program is gone, just because someone "stole" it, as would
                                      be the case with a material object. Frankly, rather anyone on this list
                                      chooses to follow copyright laws or not is none of my business.

                                      Dan

                                      > To make it VERY SIMPLE for people who apparently can
                                      > magically read words and meanings not written,
                                      >
                                      > Letting something you own rust away or gather dust
                                      > in a file cabinet is a waste! Why not sell it
                                      > (if it's a material object) or allow it to be copied
                                      > and shared (for software)? It'll be enjoyed, restored,
                                      > appreciated, used, and will make people happy.
                                      >
                                      > But if you choose to let what you have rot away, go
                                      > ahead. You can't take it with you when you die.
                                      >
                                      > --- Dan Olson <dano@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Hal Shanafield wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52
                                      >> Nash, and has the right
                                      >>> to do anything he wants with it. It is his
                                      >> property. If you want to
                                      >>> steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give
                                      >> it to you just
                                      >>> because you want it. Software piracy is a lot
                                      >> simpler than trying to
                                      >>> start an old car, but should we expect authors to
                                      >> give up their
                                      >>> copyrights just because they aren't making any
                                      >> money from them? I
                                      >>
                                      >> At the risk of getting a little off topic, this is
                                      >> another example of
                                      >> where compairing software and a car doesn't work.
                                      >> If you steel the car,
                                      >> you've taken Farmer Brown's car and he'll never be
                                      >> able to restore and
                                      >> enjoy it. Piracy is like having a giant car
                                      >> photocopier, now you've got
                                      >> an exact duplicate of Farmer Brown's car, but he
                                      >> still has a copy sitting
                                      >> in the field. Making copies without permission
                                      >> takes away the owner's
                                      >> ability to make money from selling copies, but the
                                      >> owner still has the
                                      >> origional.
                                      >
                                      > It will be total Fandemonium!
                                      > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                                      > http://www.fandemonium.org
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
                                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                                      > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                                      > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                                      > Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Rick
                                      Gregg: I have and one of the most noticeable ones of late is a Mac newsgroup reader named Thoth. While it still works in MacOS X, it is in need of updating. If
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                        Gregg:

                                        I have and one of the most noticeable ones of late is a Mac newsgroup
                                        reader named Thoth. While it still works in MacOS X, it is in need of
                                        updating. If I knew how to reach the author, I would have done so by
                                        now as mail no longer gets forwarded when someone moves several times
                                        since his last release.

                                        I won't put words in your mouth that aren't there. I have this curious
                                        ability to read what is posted and not distort the meaning through
                                        wishful thinking or wishing to only read what I want to read in a message.

                                        Rick

                                        --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ever notice how when someone mentions how a copyright
                                        > holder that chooses to do nothing with their work
                                        > is just letting it go to waste, someone ALWAYS tries
                                        > to claim the person that brought it up is saying
                                        > that people should steal or copy it?
                                        >
                                        > DON'T PUT WORDS IN WHAT I WROTE THAT I DID NOT!
                                        >
                                        > I NEVER said that a program author that isn't offering
                                        > it for sale should have it ripped off, stolen,
                                        > "pirated" etc.
                                        >
                                        > To make it VERY SIMPLE for people who apparently can
                                        > magically read words and meanings not written,
                                        >
                                        > Letting something you own rust away or gather dust
                                        > in a file cabinet is a waste! Why not sell it
                                        > (if it's a material object) or allow it to be copied
                                        > and shared (for software)? It'll be enjoyed, restored,
                                        > appreciated, used, and will make people happy.
                                        >
                                        > But if you choose to let what you have rot away, go
                                        > ahead. You can't take it with you when you die.
                                        >
                                        > --- Dan Olson <dano@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Hal Shanafield wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52
                                        > > Nash, and has the right
                                        > > > to do anything he wants with it. It is his
                                        > > property. If you want to
                                        > > > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give
                                        > > it to you just
                                        > > > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot
                                        > > simpler than trying to
                                        > > > start an old car, but should we expect authors to
                                        > > give up their
                                        > > > copyrights just because they aren't making any
                                        > > money from them? I
                                        > >
                                        > > At the risk of getting a little off topic, this is
                                        > > another example of
                                        > > where compairing software and a car doesn't work.
                                        > > If you steel the car,
                                        > > you've taken Farmer Brown's car and he'll never be
                                        > > able to restore and
                                        > > enjoy it. Piracy is like having a giant car
                                        > > photocopier, now you've got
                                        > > an exact duplicate of Farmer Brown's car, but he
                                        > > still has a copy sitting
                                        > > in the field. Making copies without permission
                                        > > takes away the owner's
                                        > > ability to make money from selling copies, but the
                                        > > owner still has the
                                        > > origional.
                                        >
                                        > It will be total Fandemonium!
                                        > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                                        > http://www.fandemonium.org
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        >
                                      • twills44@cox.net
                                        Gregg, I don t recall anyone stating that you said such things that you stated below. It seems to me that what came up here was an interest in trying to get
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                          Gregg,

                                          I don't recall anyone stating that you said such things that you stated below. It seems to me that what came up here was an interest in trying to get some of the old programs that are either "abandonware" or what I like to call "NeglectWare" back into circulation. I see nothing wrong with that, and I don't recall anyone stating you were advocating piracy. I believe I was probably the only one to mention pirating, and it was in reference to what brought us to the point we are at with "NeglectWare".

                                          This was/is a good thread. It has been civil and very active. Plus it has been a very intelligent discussion in my opinion. Hopefully we can get some of the old abandoned or neglected software back into circulation because of this thread. I hope some of the authors of older programs have seen this thread, or are at least aware of it, and that they will at least consider releasing their old programs to the community.

                                          Tom

                                          >
                                          > From: Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@...>
                                          > Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 12:29:56 EST
                                          > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
                                          >
                                          > Ever notice how when someone mentions how a copyright
                                          > holder that chooses to do nothing with their work
                                          > is just letting it go to waste, someone ALWAYS tries
                                          > to claim the person that brought it up is saying
                                          > that people should steal or copy it?
                                          >
                                          > DON'T PUT WORDS IN WHAT I WROTE THAT I DID NOT!
                                          >
                                          > I NEVER said that a program author that isn't offering
                                          > it for sale should have it ripped off, stolen,
                                          > "pirated" etc.
                                          >
                                          > To make it VERY SIMPLE for people who apparently can
                                          > magically read words and meanings not written,
                                          >
                                          > Letting something you own rust away or gather dust
                                          > in a file cabinet is a waste! Why not sell it
                                          > (if it's a material object) or allow it to be copied
                                          > and shared (for software)? It'll be enjoyed, restored,
                                          > appreciated, used, and will make people happy.
                                          >
                                          > But if you choose to let what you have rot away, go
                                          > ahead. You can't take it with you when you die.
                                          >
                                          [snip]
                                        • Matthew Hagerty
                                          You are absolutely correct, this is just my opinion, overly optimistic as usual. ;-) Yes, the original author does have the right to do what they want with
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                            You are absolutely correct, this is just my opinion, overly optimistic
                                            as usual. ;-) Yes, the original author does have the right to do what
                                            they want with their work regardless of what you, or I, or anyone else
                                            thinks is right or wrong.

                                            > Think about it - they busted their hump on Program XYZ, released it,
                                            sold a
                                            > piddling few copies, watched it get copied and distributed six ways to
                                            > Sunday, had to deal with the complaints of irate users (many who
                                            didn't pay
                                            > for it)... then years later, out of the woodwork, people start exhorting
                                            > them to dump their work into the public domain "for the good of the
                                            > community." Their opinion may be "what did the TI community ever do for
                                            > me?" And they may have a point, not that there's anything to be
                                            done about
                                            > it now.

                                            Well, no one forced them to bust their hump making software, it was a
                                            business choice they made. Creating software has always gone hand in
                                            hand with protecting your work in ways other than just some printed
                                            symbol on the documentation. However, there is no such thing as 100%
                                            protection, so anyone making software needs to understand this
                                            *before* they spend months on a project. Piracy is a calculated risk
                                            in a software business and must be accounted for. If piracy of your
                                            software is going to bother you emotionally, then simply don't write
                                            software. I'm not supporting piracy at all, but it is a fact of
                                            software, like it or not. But don't let the bad apples ruin the pie
                                            for the rest of us.

                                            It was not me, or you, or any one of a great many people in this
                                            current-day TI community who did the copying, so why should I suffer
                                            for what people were doing 20 years ago? I never thought we were
                                            asking the authors to give up their work to the common good of the
                                            community... I'd gladly still pay for some TI software that was
                                            valuable to me, if I had a way to do so.

                                            Again, just my two cents.

                                            Matthew


                                            --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bergman" <kbergman@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > <I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                                            > some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                                            > to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                                            > created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                                            > some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                                            > that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.>
                                            >
                                            > <snip>
                                            >
                                            > I think what Hal is saying (and what I agree with) is that it
                                            doesn't really
                                            > matter WHAT you, or I, or anyone but the original author, thinks.
                                            > Statements like "they should not deny access" and "expecting current
                                            prices
                                            > is unreasonable" are your opinions. No matter how commonly held
                                            they may
                                            > be, the creator of the software has the right to be as
                                            "unreasonable" as he
                                            > wants. He made it, he owns it, and he can set up a lemonade stand
                                            out front
                                            > of his house and sell shrinkwrapped copies of it in clamshell boxes with
                                            > full-color artwork for $99.99 if he wants. Our opinions of his
                                            choices are
                                            > just that - opinions - and have no bearing on anything, really.
                                            >
                                            > What isn't being said here is that we're all being pretty academic
                                            on this
                                            > point, and mainly because the longtime "disk swap" between friends
                                            and on
                                            > BBS's is now becoming more transparent and public as we move the 99/4a
                                            > programming canon into the new media. The few 99'ers I've met
                                            personally in
                                            > the past have all had scads of copied software, Xeroxed docs, etc.
                                            Some of
                                            > them had file cabinet drawers full of more stuff than they were ever
                                            even
                                            > gonna look at or use. I think if anything, some of the authors from
                                            back in
                                            > the mid-80's and early 90's that balk at releasing their software to
                                            PD are
                                            > doing it out of a knee-jerk reaction to that earlier piracy.
                                            >
                                            > Think about it - they busted their hump on Program XYZ, released it,
                                            sold a
                                            > piddling few copies, watched it get copied and distributed six ways to
                                            > Sunday, had to deal with the complaints of irate users (many who
                                            didn't pay
                                            > for it)... then years later, out of the woodwork, people start exhorting
                                            > them to dump their work into the public domain "for the good of the
                                            > community." Their opinion may be "what did the TI community ever do for
                                            > me?" And they may have a point, not that there's anything to be
                                            done about
                                            > it now.
                                            >
                                            > Just because you want something doesn't mean it's the author's
                                            obligation to
                                            > give it to you, "reasonable" or not. And frankly, it's not like you
                                            aren't
                                            > gonna be able to get it some way or another.
                                            >
                                            > Keith
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Matthew
                                            >
                                            > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield" <hals12@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash, and has the right
                                            > > to do anything he wants with it. It is his property. If you want to
                                            > > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give it to you just
                                            > > because you want it. Software piracy is a lot simpler than trying to
                                            > > start an old car, but should we expect authors to give up their
                                            > > copyrights just because they aren't making any money from them? I
                                            > > retain the rights to all the stories and articles that I have
                                            > > written, unless I have sold those rights to the various publications
                                            > > in which they appeared. If someone were to reprint one of my pieces
                                            > > without my permission, on the grounds "they couldn't find me," or
                                            > > somesuch other reason, I would be mad as hell. I agree that many
                                            > > software authors no longer regard their work as valuable, but that
                                            > > doesn't give us the right to demand they surrender their rights to
                                            > > their own creations. If someone wants to pirate software there is
                                            > > little anyone can do about it, but let's not cloak that theft in high
                                            > > moral purpose. We are not liberating software from some "prison," we
                                            > > are stealing it. Just my two cents worth. --Hal
                                            > > --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- twills44@ wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > My observation here is that most of this is really
                                            > > > > opinion. I am researching this stuff, especially the
                                            > > > > WIPO comments. I have passed to along to others for
                                            > > > > more insight.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Old software is much like an old car.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > 80 year old Farmer Brown has a 1952 Nash sitting out
                                            > > > behind his
                                            > > > barn. He's been "Gonna fix it up one of these days,
                                            > > > ain't for
                                            > > > sale!" for 40 years, "It's getting more valuable every
                                            > > > year!"
                                            > > > as it rusts into the ground.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Companies and individual authors have lots of software
                                            > > > that
                                            > > > they haven't sold a copy of in a decade, yet they
                                            > > > claim it's
                                            > > > "worth a lot of money" and "One of these days I might
                                            > > > decide to
                                            > > > write a new and updated version." Meanwhile it sits
                                            > > > there,
                                            > > > doing nothing, nobody gets to see and use and
                                            > > > appreciate it
                                            > > > other than the people who bought copies years ago and
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > few of them that still use it.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > If it's not making the company or author any money and
                                            > > > has
                                            > > > approximately zero potential of ever producing another
                                            > > > penny
                                            > > > of income, why just sit on it and let it fade away
                                            > > > into the
                                            > > > mists of time?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Then there's the "If people really wanted my old
                                            > > > program, they'd
                                            > > > pay for it!" Well, first you have to make it available
                                            > > > to be
                                            > > > bought. Not making old software available to be
                                            > > > purchased,
                                            > > > then complaining when people copy it and put it on the
                                            > > > net is
                                            > > > a bit hypocritical.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Whomever currently owns the old Apogee and Epic
                                            > > > Megagames titles
                                            > > > does have them available for purchase, but I wonder
                                            > > > how many
                                            > > > copies they've actually sold? If you _do_ have your
                                            > > > old software
                                            > > > available for purchase, but nobody is buying, does it
                                            > > > really
                                            > > > still have any monetary value? Anything is only worth
                                            > > > what
                                            > > > people are willing to pay for it. I could start an
                                            > > > eBay auction
                                            > > > on a box of Kleenex with a $1,000 reserve, but it'll
                                            > > > never
                                            > > > sell because nobody will bid that much, therefore it's
                                            > > > not
                                            > > > worth $1,000. If nobody will pay $29.95 NOW for a game
                                            > > > that
                                            > > > was a hot seller in 1992 at $29.95, it's no longer
                                            > > > worth $29.95
                                            > > > no matter what the author thinks about it. They
                                            > > > _might_ buy it
                                            > > > at $5.95, might not.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The software bargain bins at stores ought to be a
                                            > > > gigantic
                                            > > > clue to people and companies holding copyrights on old
                                            > > > software.
                                            > > > The "value" of their product had a finite lifespan and
                                            > > > will
                                            > > > never ever appreciate back up to its original sale price.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It will be total Fandemonium!
                                            > > > August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                                            > > > http://www.fandemonium.org
                                            > > >
                                            > > > __________________________________________________
                                            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                            > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > For users/owners of TI-99/4A Geneve 9640 computers everywhere!
                                            > Visit the TI99'ers Hall of Fame at http://www.ti99hof.org
                                            > Check out the TI99ers On-Line User Group at
                                            http://www.ti99ers.org/home/.
                                            > Send abuse reports to abuse@...
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                          • Matthew Hagerty
                                            HAHA! Sorry, but that s funny! I laughed out loud. Matthew ... market. We are now reaping the
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                              HAHA! Sorry, but that's funny! I laughed out loud.

                                              Matthew


                                              --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, TI Los <tilos@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Bill Gates would agree with you too.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Tom Wills wrote:
                                              > > So the authors, in effect, said "Screw You!" and took it off the
                                              market. We are now reaping the
                                              > > rewards of those who did all the pirating.
                                              > >
                                              > > -------Original Message-------
                                              > >
                                              > > From: Matthew Hagerty
                                              > > Date: 02/01/06 17:27:30
                                              > > To: ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Subject: [TI-99/4A] Re: slighty OT: info on abandonware
                                              > >
                                              > > I agree with you on this point, however, if someone holds rights to
                                              > > some piece of work that others can enjoy, they should not deny access
                                              > > to that work due to their own stubbornness if the work was originally
                                              > > created for others to use (and was indeed made available to others at
                                              > > some point in the past.) Also, expecting current prices for something
                                              > > that is 20 years old is unreasonable and greedy.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Gregg Eshelman
                                              ... Right here. I wrote nothing at all that would imply this. ... and has the right ... property. If you want to ... it to you just ... It will be total
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 4, 2006
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                                                --- twills44@... wrote:

                                                > Gregg,
                                                >
                                                > I don't recall anyone stating that you said such
                                                > things that you stated below.

                                                Right here. I wrote nothing at all that would imply
                                                this.

                                                --- In ti99-4a@yahoogroups.com, "Hal Shanafield"
                                                <hals12@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > The thing is, Farmer Brown still OWNS the '52 Nash,
                                                and has the right
                                                > to do anything he wants with it. It is his
                                                property. If you want to
                                                > steal it, you can. Just don't demand that he give
                                                it to you just
                                                > because you want it.

                                                It will be total Fandemonium!
                                                August (Fri) 4th, (Sat) 5th & (Sun) 6th, 2006
                                                http://www.fandemonium.org

                                                __________________________________________________
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                                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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