Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: Re[2]: [thomism] Re: What is essence?

Expand Messages
  • Dennis Polis
    On Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:46 AM, =?Windows-1250?Q?Luk=E1=9A_Nov=E1k?= ... is a ... are ... This is not a complete vision of what happens here. The
    Message 1 of 89 , Apr 8, 2005
      On Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:46 AM, =?Windows-1250?Q?Luk=E1=9A_Nov=E1k?=
      [SMTP:lukas.novak@...] wrote:
      > Dennis Polis scripsit:
      >
      > > A passive potency is a potency to be a patient, and an active potency
      is a
      > > potency to be an agent.
      >
      > > A purely passive potency envisions the ability to be acted upon without
      > > being able to react in any way. My contention is that if your think you
      are
      > > acting on X and X does not react in some way, then however much you are
      > > exerting yourself, you are not acting on X.
      >
      > You are mixing the concepts of passion and of reaction here.
      > If a hotter body A warms up a colder body B, then there are
      > 2 processes:
      >
      > 1) The "reaction" of the colder body: it gets warmer. BUT THIS IS NOT
      > REACTION, this is not even an action, this is _passion_; there is _NO
      > NEED_ of _active_ potency in B, to allow for this. The potency to
      > become warmer is purely passive.

      This is not a complete vision of what happens here. The molecules in the
      colder body recieve thermal energy from the warmer body and react by moving
      more energetically. If they did not move more energetically, then no
      warming would occur. Thus, in point of fact, the work of the warmer body
      considered as an agent is to bring abut a new state of activity in the
      patient. If it did not, there would be no effect.

      Now we may forgive past philosophers for not being fully aware of this, but
      now that we are, we can no longer pass over this essential connection in
      silence.

      > 2) The real reaction of B: the real action of B upon A, B's making A
      > colder. This is a true action which needs an active potency in B, and
      > in A a process correpsonds to it called "repassion".

      While this does happen, it is not the point I am addressing. The point I am
      addressing is the new activity which necessarily occurs in the patient in
      response to any physical exitation of it. There is no case in which there
      is a change effected in a body that is not reflected by a new state of
      activity in that body.

      > I am speaking of active potencies here, but according to the standard
      > theory, IIRC, in the case of these natural changes the active
      > potencies are in fact really identical with the respective qualities:
      > the active potency to heat is identical with the temperature.

      There a many complexities here that i will pass over. Actual temperature
      is the measure of a determinate accident, the average energy per degree of
      freedom of the molecules in a body. Temperature in a body is a measurable,
      and so a potency to be measured in a certain way, just as any other
      quantity is a potency to be measured or counted in a certain way.

      The potency to be heated is measured by something different, the specific
      heat, which determines what change in temperature will occur when a certain
      quantity if heat (energy) is recieved.

      > Needless to say, I disgree with most of the rest od Denis's reply,
      > but I have explained my objections elsewhere.
      >
      > Lukas

      Having read your responses to Bo, I find that one of the problems we have
      been having was my assumption that you accepted something like standard
      Thomism, which you in fact reject at innumerable points. I adhere much more
      strongly to the vision and system of Aquinas than you do, and my efforts
      are aimed at bringing the sysnthesis into congruence with the advances of
      human knowledge since the 1270s.

      Peace,
      Dennis
    • Dennis Polis
      On Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:46 AM, =?Windows-1250?Q?Luk=E1=9A_Nov=E1k?= ... is a ... are ... This is not a complete vision of what happens here. The
      Message 89 of 89 , Apr 8, 2005
        On Wednesday, April 06, 2005 1:46 AM, =?Windows-1250?Q?Luk=E1=9A_Nov=E1k?=
        [SMTP:lukas.novak@...] wrote:
        > Dennis Polis scripsit:
        >
        > > A passive potency is a potency to be a patient, and an active potency
        is a
        > > potency to be an agent.
        >
        > > A purely passive potency envisions the ability to be acted upon without
        > > being able to react in any way. My contention is that if your think you
        are
        > > acting on X and X does not react in some way, then however much you are
        > > exerting yourself, you are not acting on X.
        >
        > You are mixing the concepts of passion and of reaction here.
        > If a hotter body A warms up a colder body B, then there are
        > 2 processes:
        >
        > 1) The "reaction" of the colder body: it gets warmer. BUT THIS IS NOT
        > REACTION, this is not even an action, this is _passion_; there is _NO
        > NEED_ of _active_ potency in B, to allow for this. The potency to
        > become warmer is purely passive.

        This is not a complete vision of what happens here. The molecules in the
        colder body recieve thermal energy from the warmer body and react by moving
        more energetically. If they did not move more energetically, then no
        warming would occur. Thus, in point of fact, the work of the warmer body
        considered as an agent is to bring abut a new state of activity in the
        patient. If it did not, there would be no effect.

        Now we may forgive past philosophers for not being fully aware of this, but
        now that we are, we can no longer pass over this essential connection in
        silence.

        > 2) The real reaction of B: the real action of B upon A, B's making A
        > colder. This is a true action which needs an active potency in B, and
        > in A a process correpsonds to it called "repassion".

        While this does happen, it is not the point I am addressing. The point I am
        addressing is the new activity which necessarily occurs in the patient in
        response to any physical exitation of it. There is no case in which there
        is a change effected in a body that is not reflected by a new state of
        activity in that body.

        > I am speaking of active potencies here, but according to the standard
        > theory, IIRC, in the case of these natural changes the active
        > potencies are in fact really identical with the respective qualities:
        > the active potency to heat is identical with the temperature.

        There a many complexities here that i will pass over. Actual temperature
        is the measure of a determinate accident, the average energy per degree of
        freedom of the molecules in a body. Temperature in a body is a measurable,
        and so a potency to be measured in a certain way, just as any other
        quantity is a potency to be measured or counted in a certain way.

        The potency to be heated is measured by something different, the specific
        heat, which determines what change in temperature will occur when a certain
        quantity if heat (energy) is recieved.

        > Needless to say, I disgree with most of the rest od Denis's reply,
        > but I have explained my objections elsewhere.
        >
        > Lukas

        Having read your responses to Bo, I find that one of the problems we have
        been having was my assumption that you accepted something like standard
        Thomism, which you in fact reject at innumerable points. I adhere much more
        strongly to the vision and system of Aquinas than you do, and my efforts
        are aimed at bringing the sysnthesis into congruence with the advances of
        human knowledge since the 1270s.

        Peace,
        Dennis
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.