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Re: [thomism] Re: Personal Reflections on Universal Salvation

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  • Avbcl111@aol.com
    Thomas, I ve read those quotes before. When Jesus became man, He united Himself with all men. He is still man even in eternity and hence, He is united with
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 30, 2005
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      Thomas,
       
      I've read those quotes before. When Jesus became man, He united Himself with all men. He is still man even in eternity and hence, He is united with every man for eternity. Also, the quotes you provided is the theology of Irenaeus' recapitulation. And for the Eastern Catholics, some believe that God is united with men forever, but those who are in heaven are in a state of beatitute while the presence of God who are in hell is "fire" to them.
       
      JMJ
      A.L. III
    • sparksthomas
      1. Pope John Paul II has clearly been teaching that all are elect and predestined for heaven; he has explicitly stated that and has done so with reference to a
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1 6:52 AM
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        1. Pope John Paul II has clearly been teaching that all are elect
        and predestined for heaven; he has explicitly stated that and has
        done so with reference to a passage from the Bible which has always
        been understood to refer to the predestination of the elect, who
        are "chosen and predestined".

        2. He has said that all are "forever united to Christ" and he has
        done so with explicit reference to the Bible passage which says that
        God intends to finally "unite all in Christ", which is historically
        associated with the doctrine of the Alexandrian Fathers of
        apokatastasis. In Catholic theology, people are "united with Christ"
        as his Mystical Body through the state of grace, which is sufficient
        for heaven at death. He has spoken of this in the context of saying
        that all are chosen and predestined.

        3. He has emphasised that God has a "plan" of universal salvation
        that he intends to accomplish. It includes everyone and passes over
        no one. Aquinas taught that God has a providential "plan" for the
        predestined while some are "passed over". The Holy Father's comments
        amount to saying, again, that all are predestined to glory, which is
        something that he is explicitly saying, any way.

        It is clear that Pope John Paul II has been saying that all are
        predestined to heaven and that all will be united with Christ
        forever in the final restoration of all things. Very many people
        have recognised that that is so, including most of the people in my
        parish whom I have spoken with in study and prayer groups.

        God is Love and eminently prudent, after all.

        I have begun to compile some resources to give some background
        information on the doctrine of apokatastasis, though the website may
        be about to disappear as the host is very right wing and has
        indicated his unwillingness to continue to host it.

        http://www.romancatholicism.org

        "`Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has
        blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly
        places' (Eph. 1:3). These words of the Letter to the Ephesians
        reveal the eternal design of God the Father, his plan of man's
        salvation in Christ. It is a universal plan, which concerns all men
        and women created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. 1:26).
        Just as all are included in the creative work of God `in the
        beginning,' so all are eternally included in the divine plan of
        salvation, which is to be completely revealed, in the `fullness of
        time,' with the final coming of Christ. In fact, the God who is
        the `Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'-these are the next words of
        the same Letter-`chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
        that we should be holy and blameless before him. He [pre]destined us
        in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the
        purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he
        freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption
        through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to
        the riches of his grace' (Eph. 1:4-7)." (Encyclical, Redemptoris
        Mater 7:1)

        "The Church's universal mission is born of faith in Jesus Christ, as
        is stated in our Trinitarian profession of faith: "I believe in one
        Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the
        Father.... For us men and for our salvation he came down from
        heaven: by the power of the Holy spirit he became incarnate from the
        Virgin Mary, and was made man." The redemption event brings
        salvation to all, "for each one is included in the mystery of the
        redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever
        through this mystery." ... Just as "by his incarnation the Son of
        God united himself in some sense with every human being," so too "we
        are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the
        possibility of sharing in the Paschal Mystery in a manner known to
        God." God's plan is "to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven
        and things on earth" (Eph 1:10)… It is necessary to keep these two
        truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ
        for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation... We
        know, however, that Jesus came to bring integral salvation, one
        which embraces the whole person and all mankind, and opens up the
        wondrous prospect of divine filiation. Why mission? Because to us,
        as to St. Paul, "this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the
        unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph 3:8). Newness of life in him is
        the "Good News" for men and women of every age: all are called to it
        and destined for it." (Encyclical, Redemptoris Missio 4, 6, 9, 11)

        "[The Church] is because of all that more serviceable for her
        mission of salvation for all: God 'desires all men to be saved and
        to come to the knowledge of the truth.' … Accordingly, what is in
        question here is man in all his truth, in his full magnitude. We are
        not dealing with the "abstract" man, but the
        real, "concrete", "historical" man. We are dealing with "each" man,
        for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with
        each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery. …
        The [Second Vatican] Council points out this very fact when,
        speaking of that likeness, it recalls that "man is the only creature
        on earth that God willed for itself". Man as "willed" by God,
        as "chosen" by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and
        glory-this is "each" man, "the most concrete" man, "the most real";
        this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has
        become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of
        the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has
        become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of
        his mother." (Encyclical Redemptor Hominis 5, 13)
      • Avbcl111@aol.com
        You just ignored what I said. He was reiterating recapitulation. May God bless and watch over John Paul the Great--more than a Christian, a little Christ. JMJ
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 1 2:54 PM
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          You just ignored what I said. He was reiterating recapitulation.
           
           
          May God bless and watch over John Paul the Great--more than a Christian, a little Christ.
           
          JMJ
          A.L. III
        • rafalrap
          Are you kidding? The Pope s encyclical clearly points to the reality that God the Father graciously intends and desires that all be saved, and the Church
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2 12:11 PM
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            Are you kidding?  The Pope's encyclical clearly points to the reality that God the Father graciously intends and desires that all be saved, and the Church proclaiims the Good News in the shadow of God's gracious action at work universally to dispose mankind to the Good News,  This does not imply that all or even a majority will co-operate with God's grace.  Our predestination is heralded by our hatred of Sin and our re-orientation to do Good to our neighbor.   "For many are called, but few are chosen (the Kingdom).                                                                                                                     sparksthomas <sparksthomas@...> wrote:

            1. Pope John Paul II has clearly been teaching that all are elect
            and predestined for heaven; he has explicitly stated that and has
            done so with reference to a passage from the Bible which has always
            been understood to refer to the predestination of the elect, who
            are "chosen and predestined".

            2. He has said that all are "forever united to Christ" and he has
            done so with explicit reference to the Bible passage which says that
            God intends to finally "unite all in Christ", which is historically
            associated with the doctrine of the Alexandrian Fathers of
            apokatastasis. In Catholic theology, people are "united with Christ"
            as his Mystical Body through the state of grace, which is sufficient
            for heaven at death. He has spoken of this in the context of saying
            that all are chosen and predestined.

            3. He has emphasised that God has a "plan" of universal salvation
            that he intends to accomplish. It includes everyone and passes over
            no one. Aquinas taught that God has a providential "plan" for the
            predestined while some are "passed over". The Holy Father's comments
            amount to saying, again, that all are predestined to glory, which is
            something that he is explicitly saying, any way.

            It is clear that Pope John Paul II has been saying that all are
            predestined to heaven and that all will be united with Christ
            forever in the final restoration of all things. Very many people
            have recognised that that is so, including most of the people in my
            parish whom I have spoken with in study and prayer groups.

            God is Love and eminently prudent, after all.

            I have begun to compile some resources to give some background
            information on the doctrine of apokatastasis, though the website may
            be about to disappear as the host is very right wing and has
            indicated his unwillingness to continue to host it.

            http://www.romancatholicism.org

            "`Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has
            blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly
            places' (Eph. 1:3). These words of the Letter to the Ephesians
            reveal the eternal design of God the Father, his plan of man's
            salvation in Christ. It is a universal plan, which concerns all men
            and women created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. 1:26).
            Just as all are included in the creative work of God `in the
            beginning,' so all are eternally included in the divine plan of
            salvation, which is to be completely revealed, in the `fullness of
            time,' with the final coming of Christ. In fact, the God who is
            the `Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'-these are the next words of
            the same Letter-`chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
            that we should be holy and blameless before him. He [pre]destined us
            in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the
            purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he
            freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption
            through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to
            the riches of his grace' (Eph. 1:4-7)." (Encyclical, Redemptoris
            Mater 7:1)

            "The Church's universal mission is born of faith in Jesus Christ, as
            is stated in our Trinitarian profession of faith: "I believe in one
            Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the
            Father.... For us men and for our salvation he came down from
            heaven: by the power of the Holy spirit he became incarnate from the
            Virgin Mary, and was made man." The redemption event brings
            salvation to all, "for each one is included in the mystery of the
            redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever
            through this mystery." ... Just as "by his incarnation the Son of
            God united himself in some sense with every human being," so too "we
            are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the
            possibility of sharing in the Paschal Mystery in a manner known to
            God." God's plan is "to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven
            and things on earth" (Eph 1:10)� It is necessary to keep these two
            truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ
            for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation... We
            know, however, that Jesus came to bring integral salvation, one
            which embraces the whole person and all mankind, and opens up the
            wondrous prospect of divine filiation. Why mission? Because to us,
            as to St. Paul, "this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the
            unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph 3:8). Newness of life in him is
            the "Good News" for men and women of every age: all are called to it
            and destined for it." (Encyclical, Redemptoris Missio 4, 6, 9, 11)

            "[The Church] is because of all that more serviceable for her
            mission of salvation for all: God 'desires all men to be saved and
            to come to the knowledge of the truth.' � Accordingly, what is in
            question here is man in all his truth, in his full magnitude. We are
            not dealing with the "abstract" man, but the
            real, "concrete", "historical" man. We are dealing with "each" man,
            for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with
            each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery. �
            The [Second Vatican] Council points out this very fact when,
            speaking of that likeness, it recalls that "man is the only creature
            on earth that God willed for itself". Man as "willed" by God,
            as "chosen" by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and
            glory-this is "each" man, "the most concrete" man, "the most real";
            this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has
            become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of
            the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has
            become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of
            his mother." (Encyclical Redemptor Hominis 5, 13)





          • cazeno@webtv.net
            I will go along with the following by the Holy Father s Letter to Priests on Holy Thursday: 4.) Hoc est enim corpus meum quod pro vobis tradetur. The body and
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2 12:48 PM
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              I will go along with the following by the
              Holy Father's Letter to Priests on Holy
              Thursday:
              4.) Hoc est enim corpus meum quod pro vobis tradetur. The body and blood
              of Christ are given for the salvation of the whole_man and of all_men.
              This salvation is integral_and at the same time universal_, because no
              one, unless
              he freely chooses, is excluded from the saving
              power of Christ's blood: qui pro vobis et pro
              multis effundetur. It is a sacrifice offered for
              "many", as the Biblical text says . . . this
              typical Semitic expression refers to the
              multitude who are saved by Christ, the one
              Redeemer, yet at the same time it implies
              the_totality_of_human_beings_ to whom
              salvtion is offered: the lord's blood is shed_
              for_you_and_for_all, as some translations
              legitimately makes explicit. Christ's flesh is
              truly given "for the life of the world" . . . .
              I would emphasize 'BECAUSE NO ONE,
              UNLESS HE FREELY CHOOSES, IS
              EXCLUDED FROM THE SAVING POWER
              OF CHRIST'S BLOOD." There will be
              some goats.
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