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keeping up, or not

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  • jamello@aol.com
    I m in a bit of a musical funk at the moment. With so much new stuff continually coming out, I find I ve become more attuned to keeping up and, as a result,
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 30, 2000
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      I'm in a bit of a musical funk at the moment. With so much new stuff
      continually coming out, I find I've become more attuned to keeping up and, as
      a result, less likely to discover a recording that "grows on me" because
      there doesn't seem to be enough time to listen to one thing often enough.
      This is a sad development, as some of my all-time favorite recordings are not
      things which immediately struck me, but pieces which incinuated themselves
      into my subconscious (or something) over a period of time and repeat listens.


      Am I the only one who wishes there were additional hours in the day to keep
      up with the new yet still have time to enjoy the past as well? Of course,
      the simple answer is "don't buy so much new crap", easier said than done.

      BTW, this train of thought was inspired by last night's listen to "Cut" by
      the Slits, an LP which puts to shame so much that has come in its wake but
      one I hadn't listened to in years.

      -- Jack
    • sunfish
      And that s just the stuff in the shops? Add the internet and of course you ll never catch up- lifes too short to worry about it, I guess. Make sure you re
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 30, 2000
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        And that's just the stuff in the shops? Add the internet and of course
        you'll never catch up- lifes too short to worry about it, I guess. Make sure
        you're enjoying the music; it's all I ever do?
        cheers
        Chi
      • Steven Taylor
        Just make sure what you are listening to is good for you, I believe there is more good music around than I could ever enjoy in more than one lifetime and I
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 30, 2000
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          Just make sure what you are listening to is good for you, I believe there is
          more good music around than I could ever enjoy in more than one lifetime and I
          find it pretty comforting!

          Although Napster has just opened me up to so much new stuff I too feel swamped..

          sunfish wrote:

          > And that's just the stuff in the shops? Add the internet and of course
          > you'll never catch up- lifes too short to worry about it, I guess. Make sure
          > you're enjoying the music; it's all I ever do?
          > cheers
          > Chi
          >
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        • kevin king
          ... One of the most provocative statements I ve read in reaction to Napster is the last line of the otherwise not-so-terribly-informative article by Philip
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 30, 2000
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            > Although Napster has just opened me up to so much new stuff I too
            > feel swamped..

            One of the most provocative statements I've read in reaction to Napster is
            the last line of the otherwise not-so-terribly-informative article by Philip
            Sherburne in this month's issue:

            "But could it be that there's just too much music out there, and that the
            structures we impose on top of it... serve mainly to sort it out, to create
            value where value is so dubious?"
          • Steven Taylor
            ... I dont really have a strong opinion either way on the above comment, but in general I found that article to be one of the most naive and uninformed pieces
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 31, 2000
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              kevin king wrote:

              > > Although Napster has just opened me up to so much new stuff I too
              > > feel swamped..
              >
              > One of the most provocative statements I've read in reaction to Napster is
              > the last line of the otherwise not-so-terribly-informative article by Philip
              > Sherburne in this month's issue:
              >
              > "But could it be that there's just too much music out there, and that the
              > structures we impose on top of it... serve mainly to sort it out, to create
              > value where value is so dubious?"

              I dont really have a strong opinion either way on the above comment, but in
              general I found that article to be one of the most naive and uninformed pieces
              ive ever read in the Wire. The list of URLs was excellent and it has turned me
              on to many new sites, I just wish the Napster article was written with actual
              experience of the phenomenon and the community that has sprung up around it.
              (Was there even a mention of software such as Napigator, which helps you search
              for specialist music?)

              To suggest that most people dont use Napster because it is too slow is not my
              experience at all. This is disproven by the sheer numbers of people connecting
              using 56k modems that come up everytime I search (especially for more obscure
              items).
              When I find a track that I have been tracking down for 5 years, im perfectly
              willing to wait an hour or 2 for it to download, as are the countless people who
              have connected to me and downloaded large files over multiple hours. ISPs such
              as Freeserve in the UK do not make these exchanges quick but they do make them
              FREE.

              Maybe the magazine should turn to this mailing list for pointers when writing
              this kind of article and save face next time.

              Steve
            • sunfish
              ... Woo who pays your phone bill Steve? I only have downloads of interesting new people thanks to my (paid for) freephone service at Excite. I found Napster a
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 31, 2000
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                > Steve
                >
                Woo who pays your phone bill Steve? I only have downloads of interesting new
                people thanks to my (paid for) freephone service at Excite.
                I found Napster a bit confusing and I can't be on the line in the way it
                implies? If it really is rare music that matters (and I have no comment good
                or bad on Napster per se) why does it have to be part of a more complicated
                service?
              • kevin king
                ... I think many of the article s shortcomings had to do with the UK vs. US net experience (bandwith, cost of connection). Those differences are only
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 31, 2000
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                  > To suggest that most people dont use Napster because it is too
                  > slow is not my
                  > experience at all.

                  I think many of the article's shortcomings had to do with the UK vs. US net
                  experience (bandwith, cost of connection). Those differences are only
                  momentary of course. I can't imagine it being worthwhile to download mp3's
                  on a slow pay-as-you-go connection because of all the inconsistencies
                  mentioned in the article (bad rips, dropped connections, etc.).
                • JacobM
                  RE: napster .. http://news.excite.com/news/ap/001031/16/napster-bertelsmann new in .. napster finally joins with a large media company .. does this mean £10 a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 1, 2000
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                    RE: napster ..
                    http://news.excite.com/news/ap/001031/16/napster-bertelsmann

                    new in .. napster finally joins with a large media company ..
                    does this mean £10 a mp3?




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: kevin king [mailto:kwking@...]
                    Sent: 31 October 2000 18:28
                    To: thewire@egroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [thewire] keeping up, or not


                    > To suggest that most people dont use Napster because it is too
                    > slow is not my
                    > experience at all.

                    I think many of the article's shortcomings had to do with the UK vs. US net
                    experience (bandwith, cost of connection). Those differences are only
                    momentary of course. I can't imagine it being worthwhile to download mp3's
                    on a slow pay-as-you-go connection because of all the inconsistencies
                    mentioned in the article (bad rips, dropped connections, etc.).



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                  • Øivind Idsø
                    ... Well, with all of its major, MAJOR shortcomings (faulty downloads, crappy encoded MP3s, timeouts...you name it) I really wouldn´t pay much more than a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 1, 2000
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                      JacobM wrote:

                      > new in .. napster finally joins with a large media company ..
                      > does this mean £10 a mp3?

                      Well, with all of its major, MAJOR shortcomings (faulty downloads, crappy
                      encoded MP3s, timeouts...you name it) I really wouldn´t pay much more than a
                      dime for using Napster. IMHO.

                      /Øivind/
                    • John Farrar
                      ... a ... Bit of shooting the messenger. Napster is just the medium for linking seekers to tracks. It s hardly their fault if people have crap communications
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                        > JacobM wrote:
                        >
                        > > new in .. napster finally joins with a large media company ..
                        > > does this mean £10 a mp3?
                        >
                        > Well, with all of its major, MAJOR shortcomings (faulty downloads, crappy
                        > encoded MP3s, timeouts...you name it) I really wouldn´t pay much more than
                        a
                        > dime for using Napster. IMHO.
                        >
                        > /Øivind/

                        Bit of shooting the messenger. Napster is just the medium for linking
                        seekers to tracks. It's hardly their fault if people have crap
                        communications equipment and mp3s.

                        John

                        BTW, am I the only person impressed by the new GSYBE?
                      • Andrew Cox
                        ... ... Nope - it s growing on me, especially the second disc. The production s a bit thin though - perhaps they can get Jim Steinman to do the next
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                          Thursday, November 02, 2000, 8:21:08 PM John wrote:


                          >> JacobM wrote:
                          <snip>
                          > BTW, am I the only person impressed by the new GSYBE?

                          Nope - it's growing on me, especially the second disc. The
                          production's a bit thin though - perhaps they can get Jim Steinman to
                          do the next one...
                        • Øivind Idsø
                          ... Agree, but if Napster will charge me for linking to a bunch of faulty MP3s they really don´t have a very attractive product to offer. Of course, making
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                            John Farrar wrote:

                            > Bit of shooting the messenger. Napster is just the medium for linking
                            > seekers to tracks. It's hardly their fault if people have crap
                            > communications equipment and mp3s.

                            Agree, but if Napster will charge me for linking to a bunch of faulty MP3s they
                            really don´t have a very attractive product to offer. Of course, making this a
                            centralized endeavour, where there´s a pool of properly encoded MP3s located at
                            a stable server, would definitely make it easy for record companies to penalize
                            them, so I can see the problem(s).

                            Guess buying CDs still has its place. ;)

                            /Øivind/
                          • themoonstealingproject@yahoo.com
                            ... to ... I liked it fine enough.... still don t get what all the hoopla is all about. I probably couldn t seperate this from their other releases in a blind
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                              > > BTW, am I the only person impressed by the new GSYBE?
                              >
                              > Nope - it's growing on me, especially the second disc. The
                              > production's a bit thin though - perhaps they can get Jim Steinman
                              to
                              > do the next one...


                              I liked it fine enough.... still don't get what all the hoopla is all
                              about. I probably couldn't seperate this from their other releases in
                              a blind taste test. It just seemed very formulaic to me.

                              Formulaic......but........ummmm......nice




                              jason___
                            • Manuel V. Cabrera Jr.
                              i agree. besides, my impression has been that a good number of napsterites are folks like myself--college students, who have little money and access to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                i agree. besides, my impression has been that a good number of napsterites are
                                folks like myself--college students, who have little money and access to high-speed
                                connections. the problem i have with napster is simply that mp3's aren't usually of
                                very good quality--often badly encoded, plus the fact that they are compressed
                                files, they simply aren't as good as most cd's. but who can look a gift horse in
                                the mouth? besides, as long as mp files are of poorer quality than original
                                recordings, this may keep people buying those original recordings. of course, all
                                the rarities i've found on napster: many of them are songs i couldn't find anywhere
                                else for a reasonable price.

                                manuel cabrera

                                Steven Taylor wrote:

                                > kevin king wrote:
                                >
                                > > > Although Napster has just opened me up to so much new stuff I too
                                > > > feel swamped..
                                > >
                                > > One of the most provocative statements I've read in reaction to Napster is
                                > > the last line of the otherwise not-so-terribly-informative article by Philip
                                > > Sherburne in this month's issue:
                                > >
                                > > "But could it be that there's just too much music out there, and that the
                                > > structures we impose on top of it... serve mainly to sort it out, to create
                                > > value where value is so dubious?"
                                >
                                > I dont really have a strong opinion either way on the above comment, but in
                                > general I found that article to be one of the most naive and uninformed pieces
                                > ive ever read in the Wire. The list of URLs was excellent and it has turned me
                                > on to many new sites, I just wish the Napster article was written with actual
                                > experience of the phenomenon and the community that has sprung up around it.
                                > (Was there even a mention of software such as Napigator, which helps you search
                                > for specialist music?)
                                >
                                > To suggest that most people dont use Napster because it is too slow is not my
                                > experience at all. This is disproven by the sheer numbers of people connecting
                                > using 56k modems that come up everytime I search (especially for more obscure
                                > items).
                                > When I find a track that I have been tracking down for 5 years, im perfectly
                                > willing to wait an hour or 2 for it to download, as are the countless people who
                                > have connected to me and downloaded large files over multiple hours. ISPs such
                                > as Freeserve in the UK do not make these exchanges quick but they do make them
                                > FREE.
                                >
                                > Maybe the magazine should turn to this mailing list for pointers when writing
                                > this kind of article and save face next time.
                                >
                                > Steve
                                >
                                >
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                                >
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                              • sunfish
                                ... they ... this a ... located at ... penalize ... Maybe not, as Napster is enfolded in BMG s wings most other artists will be on line for a piece of what
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                  > Agree, but if Napster will charge me for linking to a bunch of faulty MP3s
                                  they
                                  > really don´t have a very attractive product to offer. Of course, making
                                  this a
                                  > centralized endeavour, where there´s a pool of properly encoded MP3s
                                  located at
                                  > a stable server, would definitely make it easy for record companies to
                                  penalize
                                  > them, so I can see the problem(s).
                                  >
                                  > Guess buying CDs still has its place. ;)
                                  >
                                  > /Øivind/
                                  >
                                  Maybe not, as Napster is enfolded in BMG's wings most other artists will be
                                  on line for a piece of what money it can raise. So most artists will be ok
                                  to swap (whent hey are paid for it)- so maybe there will be some limited
                                  upload space for the new 'paid up' members if only to keep a better eye on
                                  what's being swapped- hey can I get a piece of that cash Mr.?
                                  Chi
                                • kevin king
                                  ... But, as more and more people get faster bandwith... and a wider variety of file share software becomes available, Napster won t even matter. Furthermore,
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                    > Maybe not, as Napster is enfolded in BMG's wings most other
                                    > artists will be
                                    > on line for a piece of what money it can raise. So most artists will be ok
                                    > to swap (whent hey are paid for it)- so maybe there will be some limited
                                    > upload space for the new 'paid up' members if only to keep a better eye on
                                    > what's being swapped- hey can I get a piece of that cash Mr.?

                                    But, as more and more people get faster bandwith... and a wider variety of
                                    file share software becomes available, Napster won't even matter.
                                    Furthermore, if Napster hadn't started this fuss, something else would have.
                                    (I disagree about the inability to rip at cd quality.. if this were true,
                                    the same uproar would have happened over realaudio). Regardless, it's the
                                    increasing transferability of data that's at issue. And as everything more
                                    and moreso becomes data, well...

                                    I don't think any of the recent goings on even begins to solve the problem
                                    of copyright. It's a logical, inevitable move for both Napster and BMG...
                                    but ultimately it's based on a threatened paradigm. File sharing will
                                    continue one way or another (I think most pro-napster arguments I've read to
                                    be narrow and ethically false, but this fact must be realized). Encryption
                                    of data will only provide speed bumps, as will 'official' sites. Unless
                                    content creators (whether they be musicians, writers, photographers or
                                    software developers) want to keep chasing their tails on this issue, a whole
                                    new paradigm has to be worked out. Perhaps this isn't possible within a
                                    system so reliant on ownership and property value. I don't pretend to have
                                    the answer, but this BMG deal ain't it.
                                  • John Farrar
                                    ... they ... this a ... located at ... penalize ... Actually, I don t use Napster for the very reason you have identified. I was merely pointing out that it
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                      > John Farrar wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Bit of shooting the messenger. Napster is just the medium for linking
                                      > > seekers to tracks. It's hardly their fault if people have crap
                                      > > communications equipment and mp3s.
                                      >
                                      Øivind wrote:
                                      > Agree, but if Napster will charge me for linking to a bunch of faulty MP3s
                                      they
                                      > really don´t have a very attractive product to offer. Of course, making
                                      this a
                                      > centralized endeavour, where there´s a pool of properly encoded MP3s
                                      located at
                                      > a stable server, would definitely make it easy for record companies to
                                      penalize
                                      > them, so I can see the problem(s).
                                      >
                                      > Guess buying CDs still has its place. ;)

                                      Actually, I don't use Napster for the very reason you have identified. I
                                      was merely pointing out that it wasn't necessarily the author of Napster's
                                      fault. I tend to use services like http://www.listen.lycos.com/ to find
                                      stuff and then its either free or if I want it, I'll buy it from people like
                                      E-music. From a Brit point of view downloading an album (last one was
                                      Merzbow/Gore Beyond Necropsy) for $8.99 is damned good value - even after
                                      adding the cost of phone connection here.

                                      John
                                    • simonsmith@readingchronicle.co.uk
                                      ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [thewire] keeping up, or not Author: MIME:jfarrar@unisonfree.net
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                        ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
                                        Subject: Re: [thewire] keeping up, or not
                                        Author: MIME:jfarrar@... at INTERNET
                                        Date: 03/11/2000 09:47


                                        True, and this is going to sound very shallow, but don't you miss the packaging??!! Especially some lovely Merzbow-esque-isms.

                                        A row of Tandy-bought CDs or MiniDiscs or somesuch doesn't quite have the aesthetic appeal of a room full of assorted vinyl, CDs in all kinds of shapes and design and a mountain of tapes occasionally tidied up into random plastic bags. Or is that just me?

                                        I told you it would sound shallow


                                        > John Farrar wrote:

                                        From a Brit point of view downloading an album (last one was Merzbow/Gore Beyond Necropsy) for $8.99 is damned good value - even after adding the cost of phone connection here.




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                                      • Jess Harvell
                                        ... Oddly, I was just thinking about this the other day...and yes, I do... My copy of Godspeed s Slow Riot EP was crushed in the trunk of a friends car
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                          >don't you miss the packaging??!!

                                          Oddly, I was just thinking about this the other day...and yes, I do...
                                          My copy of Godspeed's "Slow Riot" EP was crushed in the trunk of a friends
                                          car during a recent accident and, being broke, I went to download it...when
                                          I looked at the completed product (blank faced CDR with the name and titled
                                          scribbled on it in black felt tip,) it seemed...unequal to the music
                                          contained on...especially compared to the quality of the orignal
                                          packaging...

                                          All of my CDR's (bought in one those ridiculous bulk packs) sit in a slim,
                                          zippered binder, easily overlooked, and rather glum on my bookshelf...when
                                          searching out a listen I often forget they're even there...

                                          Ultimately the quality of the music is all that matters...but, the overall
                                          package does add to the experience...

                                          -Sprout
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                                        • Davis Ford
                                          ... In my honest opinion - there will never be a business plan that can put an end to broadband file-sharing of music. It is, without argue, impossible to
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                            > I don't think any of the recent goings on even begins to solve the problem
                                            > of copyright. It's a logical, inevitable move for both Napster and BMG...
                                            > but ultimately it's based on a threatened paradigm. File sharing will
                                            > continue one way or another (I think most pro-napster arguments I've read to
                                            > be narrow and ethically false, but this fact must be realized). Encryption
                                            > of data will only provide speed bumps, as will 'official' sites. Unless
                                            > content creators (whether they be musicians, writers, photographers or
                                            > software developers) want to keep chasing their tails on this issue, a whole
                                            > new paradigm has to be worked out. Perhaps this isn't possible within a
                                            > system so reliant on ownership and property value. I don't pretend to have
                                            > the answer, but this BMG deal ain't it.

                                            In my honest opinion - there will never be a business plan that can put
                                            an end
                                            to broadband file-sharing of music. It is, without argue, impossible to
                                            stop
                                            it. You can shut Napster down, and all the others, but you can't stop
                                            broadband
                                            file sharing. Encrypting files, etc., no one will download
                                            those, because their friend can encode the album at high-bit-rate with
                                            no encryption
                                            and they can ftp it from them. The only thing that is posing as the
                                            real limiter
                                            right now, is lack of high-speed access for many people (still using
                                            modems), and
                                            the big telco companies are working hard and fast to beat each other at
                                            grabbing
                                            the most market share for this.

                                            In my honest opinion, compact discs / vinyl will always exist as
                                            entities and will
                                            sell because people want the whole package, or they feel guilty, or
                                            both.

                                            I also have archives and archives of mp3 cd's - of which I've only had a
                                            small slice
                                            of time to listen to...(if you want to get an idea..see my homepage)
                                            I consider it a godsend, because I can now be much more discriminitave
                                            (is that a word?) about what I buy. The other day, I bought Sleep's
                                            Jerusalem, and some
                                            other albums I had on mp3 simply because they really struck a chord with
                                            me..I wanted
                                            to give some money to the artist..I wanted to blast it in my car..I
                                            wanted the artwork, etc.
                                            I also bought another record that was recommended somewhere else for
                                            people who are
                                            fans of the record I was buying as a result of having the album on mp3
                                            (that's a long sentence, eh?).

                                            However, I won't pay for mp3 albums (at least not today) - I consider it
                                            more as a really
                                            thorough musical intro system (much like the listening stations you see
                                            at record stores, but
                                            much, much better, and you can pick the albums). I also consider it a
                                            relatively easy means
                                            by which I can introduce someone else to something that I really like,
                                            and then they can
                                            go forth and explore further. This is what it's like on usenet, for
                                            instance. most all of
                                            us in there are mad posters who want other people to hear the albums
                                            that we want to tell
                                            the world about. I can honestly say, that there are almost no bands /
                                            artists I can think
                                            of in my head that I've always wanted to hear....simply because I've
                                            pretty much heard them
                                            all now, thanks to the Internet. Now, going to a record store is pretty
                                            easy, and I don't
                                            buy blindly - I buy a record cuz I know it's good.

                                            davis
                                          • John Farrar
                                            ... packaging??!! Especially some lovely Merzbow-esque-isms. ... aesthetic appeal of a room full of assorted vinyl, CDs in all kinds of shapes and design and a
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                              Simon Smith wrote:
                                              > True, and this is going to sound very shallow, but don't you miss the
                                              packaging??!! Especially some lovely Merzbow-esque-isms.
                                              >
                                              > A row of Tandy-bought CDs or MiniDiscs or somesuch doesn't quite have the
                                              aesthetic appeal of a room full of assorted vinyl, CDs in all kinds of
                                              shapes and design and a mountain of tapes occasionally tidied up into random
                                              plastic bags. Or is that just me?
                                              >
                                              > I told you it would sound shallow

                                              Ah well, nothing really beats a good quality 12" gatefold cover does it!!!

                                              I remember people getting very uptight about CDs as being useless for
                                              packaging - no-one seemed to take pre-recorded cassettes seriously anyway.

                                              However, I can put pictures in RealJukebox and have them on screen - not the
                                              same but.....

                                              John
                                            • sunfish
                                              Perhaps this isn t possible within a ... have ... Oh I agree totally. Anyway, who s going to pay- not everyone that s for sure? I was pointing out the
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                                Perhaps this isn't possible within a
                                                > system so reliant on ownership and property value. I don't pretend to
                                                have
                                                > the answer, but this BMG deal ain't it.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Oh I agree totally. Anyway, who's going to pay- not everyone that's for
                                                sure? I was pointing out the immediate (possible) consequences of the
                                                Napster/BMG situation. I'd like my music to be on that system (in theory-I
                                                don't need or want payment) if I get paid everytime someone transfers, (or
                                                as I was suggesting, downloads) a tune.
                                                Unless we have an MP3.com situation- only the popular acts get paid-
                                                everybody else working to get them paid as usual!
                                                As ever we can only see a very short way into the future (haha) but it seems
                                                obvious from everybody that a free swap service will survive whatever!
                                                Chi
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