Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: DJs say you're doing it

Expand Messages
  • Taylor McLaren
    ... If anybody is interested in a reasonably hands-off approach to the debate (at least in terms of there being no obvious political agenda advanced beyond a
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      MEEP! Dave <pure@...> wrote:
      >While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
      >anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
      >seems to be more accurate.
      If anybody is interested in a reasonably hands-off approach to the debate
      (at least in terms of there being no obvious political agenda advanced
      beyond a fairly strong desire to see some sort of peace found in the
      region), Arthur Milner's play, _Masada_, provides a neat take on the
      history of Israel in the form of a lecture to a community group that is
      derailed toward the end by some ultra-nationalist chest-beating. At least
      in terms of showing how one train of thought can easily be switched over to
      a different track, it's a worthwhile (and very quick) read. (Canadian
      readers with access to a university library should find it fairly easily in
      the collection _Singular Voices_, put out by Playwrights Canada Press back
      in 1994... other folks might find it easiest to contact PCP directly;
      e-mail me if you want more information.)

      -me
    • Andy Wilson
      ... Hash: SHA1 ... redgrave wasn t in the risible rcp, she was in the risible wrp..... - ------------------------------------ Andy Wilson Technical Director
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
        Hash: SHA1

        john, points taken, except:

        > Miners as "Red Scum" - although the less said about the
        > risible RCP, the
        > better....

        redgrave wasn't in the risible rcp, she was in the risible wrp.....

        - ------------------------------------
        Andy Wilson
        Technical Director
        ZINC
        http://andyw.zinc.co.uk/
        http://www.zinc.co.uk/
        97 Charlotte Street
        London� W1P 1LB
        T: 0171 533 0519
        T: 0171 533 0533
        M: 0956 902 438
        F: 0171 533 0534
        - ------------------------------------



        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: John Everall [mailto:john.sentrax@...]
        > Sent: 06 April 1999 09:27
        > To: thewire@onelist.com
        > Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
        >
        >
        > From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
        >
        > Andy Wilson wrote:
        >
        > >and was
        > > jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ?
        >
        > According to the limited correspodence I had with him in the early
        > eighties, yes, I would say he undoubtedly was.
        >
        > > in all, i would be very careful before making such easy
        > equations as:
        > > extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
        >
        > The original reference was to Jones' anti-semitism, not simply to
        his
        > anti-zionist stance. Vanessa Redgrave supported the PLO & made
        > anti-zionist statements, although, unlike Jones, was careful
        > to distance
        > her political viewpoint from a racially-based blanket denunciation
        of
        > Jewish people generally.However, I never heard her refer to striking

        > Miners as "Red Scum" - although the less said about the
        > risible RCP, the
        > better....
        >
        > > ASIDE: re. the elephant table lp, i remember interviewing
        > nigel ayers
        > > and graham from SPK in the early eighties and both being
        > rather angry
        > > about the elitism implicit in anyones labelling their own work as
        > > 'difficult'....
        >
        > Can't say that I blame them.......
        >
        > John Everall.
        >
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------
        > ----------
        > Looking to expand your world?
        > http://www.ONElist.com
        > ONElist has over 115,000 e-mail communities from which to chose!
        > --------------------------------------------------------------
        > ----------
        > TheWire List Info Page:
        http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
        >

        -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
        Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i

        iQA/AwUBNwsQ744/q+o32G9lEQLIMwCg27ltz1E1eBLfJhN7J9nJrfG3wygAoNI5
        Gfj0quaTofqHVGgyliX2XFV1
        =Uh+V
        -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
      • Franco Ingrassia
        ... Shame on you. ... De: Jonathan Meade Para: thewire@onelist.com Fecha: Miércoles, 07 de Abril de 1999
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
          >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

          >Jon

          :o(

          Shame on you.

          -----Mensaje original-----
          De: Jonathan Meade <jon.meade@...>
          Para: thewire@onelist.com <thewire@onelist.com>
          Fecha: Mi�rcoles, 07 de Abril de 1999 07:05 a.m.
          Asunto: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it


          >From: "Jonathan Meade" <jon.meade@...>
          >
          >
          >
          >----------
          >>From: Dave <pure@...>
          >>To: thewire@onelist.com
          >>Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
          >>Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 4:30
          >>
          >
          >> From: Dave <pure@...>
          >>
          >> At 05:01 PM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
          >>>From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
          >>>seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
          >>>palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
          >>>Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
          >>>mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
          >>>me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
          >>>the ideology.
          >>>
          >>>in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
          >>>extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
          >>
          >> While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
          >> anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
          >> seems to be more accurate. I remember a few years back when there were a
          >> lot of Russian gentils emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic
          >> citizenship because of an Israeli law which grants it to anyone with a
          >> Jewish grandfather, that there was talk of repealling the law in order
          to,
          >> in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
          >> Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free
          to
          >> disagree.
          >>
          >> -dave
          >
          >
          >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
          >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
          >
          >Jon
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >Did you know that ONElist hosts some of the largest lists on the Internet?
          >http://www.ONElist.com
          >Our scaleable system is the most reliable free e-mail service on the
          Internet!
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
        • Jonathan Meade
          ... This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck s sake Jon
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            ----------
            >From: Dave <pure@...>
            >To: thewire@onelist.com
            >Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
            >Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 4:30
            >

            > From: Dave <pure@...>
            >
            > At 05:01 PM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
            >>From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
            >>seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
            >>palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
            >>Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
            >>mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
            >>me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
            >>the ideology.
            >>
            >>in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
            >>extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
            >
            > While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
            > anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
            > seems to be more accurate. I remember a few years back when there were a
            > lot of Russian gentils emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic
            > citizenship because of an Israeli law which grants it to anyone with a
            > Jewish grandfather, that there was talk of repealling the law in order to,
            > in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
            > Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
            > disagree.
            >
            > -dave


            This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
            Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

            Jon
          • George Papanagiotou
            ... well, with no intention to disagree, it is indeed ironic to read your next message referring to the agony of the consumer/cultist which in many terms is a
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              > This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
              > Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
              >
              > Jon

              well, with no intention to disagree, it is indeed ironic to read your next
              message referring to the agony of the consumer/cultist which in many terms
              is a political comment. If only life spheres could be easily separated..
              right Jon?

              anyway people, I am new in this list and I just wish to express my gratitude
              for the volume of information one can retrieve.

              George
            • ori gordon
              since some of you found interest in muslimgauze s interview in israli newspapers, i m going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in these
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                since some of you found interest in muslimgauze's interview in israli
                newspapers, i'm going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in
                these papers, so i can get the file, but i guess it will take some time.

                more important than that, Dave wrote:
                " I remember a few years back when there were a lot of Russian gentils
                emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic citizenship because of an Israeli
                law which grants it to anyone with a Jewish grandfather, that there was talk
                of repealling the law in order to,
                in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                disagree."

                no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his empirical
                basis for it is very poor.
                i don't believe any israli minister SAY anything about "the purity of the
                jewish state", and if you can find the exact name & words i'll thank you and
                use it in my leftfield propaganda.
                though no minister will SAY it, many will believe it. in fact, this law is
                used in even more racist way than dave noticed: it is applied automaticaly
                for respected white russians, but not so automaticaly for black ethiopians.
                and by the way, it is the mother's/grandmother's religion that determines
                whether one is jewish or not. judism and islam are not the same oriental
                shit.
                and last thing about dave's mail: i'm glad to find political awareness here.

                jonathan meade wrote:
                "This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake"

                music functions in a cultural surrounding, and in many cases one can't say
                much interesting things about music (or love of music) without getting into
                politics.
                if one uses music to find peace of mind in a distrorted world, he may enjoy
                it, but it won't make the world any better. the worse case is when consuming
                "pure art" becomes THE way of coping with reality.

                back to muslimgauze: so how does his music relate to his political ideas?
                sadly, in too many cases it is no more than a pale exotic illustration,
                though exploring hip-hop made the relation less trivial, and more culturaly
                interesting.
              • Matthew Weber
                ... No, this is a music *list*. ... Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote from and unaffected by politics? (For fuck s sake.)
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 11:06 AM 04/07/1999 +0000, you wrote:

                  >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics

                  No, this is a music *list*.

                  >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

                  Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote from and
                  unaffected by politics? (For fuck's sake.)


                  Matthew Weber
                  Circulation Supervisor
                  Music Library
                  University of California, Berkeley

                  I look into my glass,
                  And view my wasting skin,
                  And say, "would god it came to pass
                  My heart had shrunk as thin!"

                  For then, I, undistressed
                  By hearts grown cold to me,
                  Could lonely wait my endless rest
                  With equanimity.

                  But Time, to make me grieve,
                  Part steals, lets part abide;
                  And shakes this fragile frame at eve
                  With throbbings of noontide.
                  Thomas Hardy (1840-1928), "I Look Into My Glass," 1898
                • Dave
                  ... Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can t remember his name though. Sorry. -Dave
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    At 04:24 PM 4/7/99 +0300, you wrote:
                    >From: "ori gordon" <citizeng@...>
                    >
                    >since some of you found interest in muslimgauze's interview in israli
                    >newspapers, i'm going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in
                    >these papers, so i can get the file, but i guess it will take some time.
                    >
                    >more important than that, Dave wrote:
                    >" I remember a few years back when there were a lot of Russian gentils
                    >emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic citizenship because of an Israeli
                    >law which grants it to anyone with a Jewish grandfather, that there was talk
                    >of repealling the law in order to,
                    >in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                    >Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                    >disagree."
                    >
                    >no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his empirical
                    >basis for it is very poor.

                    Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can't remember his name though.
                    Sorry.

                    -Dave
                  • ori gordon
                    ... well, all right, thanks anyway, it was nice to read your mails, and bye for now. ori gordon, tel aviv
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      re:

                      >Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can't remember his name though.
                      >Sorry.


                      well, all right, thanks anyway, it was nice to read your mails, and bye for
                      now.

                      ori gordon, tel aviv
                    • Huang Weijian
                      ... from and ... Nope.God(or anyone else out there)forbid.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >
                        >From: Matthew Weber <mweber@...>
                        >
                        >At 11:06 AM 04/07/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                        >
                        >>This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                        >
                        >No, this is a music *list*.
                        >
                        >>Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
                        >
                        >Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote
                        from and
                        >unaffected by politics? (For fuck's sake.)
                        >
                        Nope.God(or anyone else out there)forbid.
                      • Oliver Brice
                        ... empirical ... of the ... you and ... law is ... automaticaly ... ethiopians. ... determines ... oriental ... The law is also rascist in another way; it
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 11, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his
                          empirical
                          >basis for it is very poor.
                          >i don't believe any israli minister SAY anything about "the purity
                          of the
                          >jewish state", and if you can find the exact name & words i'll thank
                          you and
                          >use it in my leftfield propaganda.
                          >though no minister will SAY it, many will believe it. in fact, this
                          law is
                          >used in even more racist way than dave noticed: it is applied
                          automaticaly
                          >for respected white russians, but not so automaticaly for black
                          ethiopians.
                          >and by the way, it is the mother's/grandmother's religion that
                          determines
                          >whether one is jewish or not. judism and islam are not the same
                          oriental
                          >shit.
                          >

                          The law is also rascist in another way; it gives rights to jewish
                          citizens that it doesn't give to Arab citizens. However, there is a
                          definate tendecy for the English media at least (I don't know about
                          the US) to paint a picture of Israel which is not truly
                          representative. There are many problems here, its a rascist,
                          imperialist and Caplitalist society (like most [all?] of the western
                          world) but people do tend to attack with out knowing what they are
                          talking about. I agree with Ori that whatever he might think, no
                          Israeli politician wopuld use the term "Racial Purity". The Nazi
                          conatations would be the end of his political careear.

                          Olie
                        • kvetner.spoog@xxxxx.xxx
                          ... I recall some reference to Bryn s anti-Israeli statements in a review in The Wire. The statements quoted about horrible Israelis were originally made in
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 11, 1999
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                            >Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12" were actually American pro-Nazi
                            >sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently couldn't see their crime. Maybe
                            >the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I think Brian Duguid mentioned
                            >anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish to speak ill of the dead, just
                            >that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....

                            I recall some reference to Bryn's anti-Israeli statements in a review
                            in The Wire. The statements quoted about 'horrible Israelis' were
                            originally made in The Fifth Path fanzine, and, as mentioned in other
                            postings, were specifically anti-Israeli rather than anti-Semitic.
                            Regarding the comments to the effect that Bryn supported middle
                            eastern theocrats, Bryn made clear that his support was on political
                            (nationalist) rather than religious grounds, in the same interview.

                            Kvetner Spoog
                            Brian Duguid
                            brian.duguid@... www.hyperreal.org/~duguid/
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.