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Re: DJs say you're doing it

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  • John Everall
    ... Agreed. It is difficult. Whenever I come to fill-in the File Under section of a One-Sheet for distributors I am forced to resort to using such
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 5, 1999
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      Nigel Ayers wrote:
      >
      > From: "Nigel Ayers" <nigel.ayers@...>

      > Wherever you went Muslimgauze records were always to be found in the
      > "experimental" sections under "M". I know this because my own records were
      > filed close by them under "N" and I was signed to the same labels,
      > Soleilmoon and Staalplaat. Sometimes you might find Bryn's stuff in the
      > "world music" section, if there was one.

      Agreed. It is difficult. Whenever I come to fill-in the "File Under" section of a One-Sheet
      for distributors I am forced to resort to using such descriptions. I suppose it is
      unavoidable: indie isn't independent, ambient is rarely ambient, "experimental" is rarely
      *experimental*. But it does help one to locate a specific CD in a record shop.....

      > Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the Elephant Table
      > "difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s. Wire readers
      > wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it said on the sleeve.

      I recall Mensa member (absolutely true!), Gary Bushell, saying this was the worst album of
      all time! I wonder if him & Dave Henderson came to blows over this is the Sounds office...


      > I interviewed him for Network News back in 1990 when his records were
      > allegedly blacklisted in the USA because of his support for the PLO.

      You should have given him a copy of the Miners benefit album you released. I recall getting
      a letter from him at the time of the Miners Strike asking how I could support "Moscow/KGB
      funded Red Scum such as Scargill & the Miners". And a letter in current Wire praises him for
      his contribution to art & politics! I sent Bryn a reply at the time asking how he could
      support CIA-funded anti-Soviet Muhjahadeen (sp?) *freedom fighters* in Afghanistan who took
      a delight in killing and skinning sympathetic Western journalists & for good measure I told
      him I was Gay AND Jewish as a wind-up. Never heard from him since....

      > What I found problematic then as now is the reactionary motivation he had
      > for his music, and his support for middle eastern theocrats who are
      > responsible for various unpleasantness that is taking place outside of this
      > cosy little community.

      Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12" were actually American pro-Nazi
      sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently couldn't see their crime. Maybe
      the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I think Brian Duguid mentioned
      anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish to speak ill of the dead, just
      that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....


      John.
    • John Everall
      ... According to the limited correspodence I had with him in the early eighties, yes, I would say he undoubtedly was. ... The original reference was to Jones
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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        Andy Wilson wrote:

        >and was
        > jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ?

        According to the limited correspodence I had with him in the early
        eighties, yes, I would say he undoubtedly was.

        > in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
        > extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism

        The original reference was to Jones' anti-semitism, not simply to his
        anti-zionist stance. Vanessa Redgrave supported the PLO & made
        anti-zionist statements, although, unlike Jones, was careful to distance
        her political viewpoint from a racially-based blanket denunciation of
        Jewish people generally.However, I never heard her refer to striking
        Miners as "Red Scum" - although the less said about the risible RCP, the
        better....

        > ASIDE: re. the elephant table lp, i remember interviewing nigel ayers
        > and graham from SPK in the early eighties and both being rather angry
        > about the elitism implicit in anyones labelling their own work as
        > 'difficult'....

        Can't say that I blame them.......

        John Everall.
      • Burton Thomas
        Nigel: Blacklisted by whom? I know you used the word alledgedly but I can t imagine who would have even known of Muslimgauze, in 1990 here in the US, who
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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          Nigel:

          Blacklisted by whom? I know you used the word "alledgedly" but I can't
          imagine who would have even known of Muslimgauze, in 1990 here in the US,
          who had enough "clout" to put him on any list, let alone a blacklist
          (actually I can for the latter).

          Just curious.

          At 12:29 AM 5/7/99 +0100, you wrote:
          >From: "Nigel Ayers" <nigel.ayers@...>
          >
          >I interviewed him for Network News back in 1990 when his records were
          >allegedly blacklisted in the USA because of his support for the PLO.
          >
        • Davis Ford
          ... Yeah, I m curious about this too. I wasn t listening to Muslimgauze in 1990, so I can t recall if I *did* or *did not* see any of his records around then,
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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            > Nigel:
            >
            > Blacklisted by whom? I know you used the word "alledgedly" but I can't
            > imagine who would have even known of Muslimgauze, in 1990 here in the US,
            > who had enough "clout" to put him on any list, let alone a blacklist
            > (actually I can for the latter).
            >
            > Just curious.

            Yeah, I'm curious about this too. I wasn't listening to Muslimgauze in
            1990, so I can't recall if I *did* or *did not* see any of his records
            around then, but I find it odd that he would be blacklisted. The only
            censorship the US has really seen has been through Tipper Gore and the PMRC,
            and I they were more concerned with rap, punk, and metal artists of the day
            (actually they blacklisted tons of other popular music records, too.) Their
            censorship was based almost entirely on language, sex, and violence. I
            can't think of anything they mentioned that had political motivations.
            Incidentally, did anyone else catch that story in The Onion about "Tipper
            Gore Jerking Arithmetically at Local Ball"? I can't find it anymore. I
            say, if you haven't already, do yourself a favor and check out The Onion.
            www.theonion.com The new book they just released is probably the funniest
            thing I have ever witnessed.

            davis
          • R. Lim
            ... I think they were more concerned about artists people heard of or could actually buy at normal record stores (Wendy O Williams, RIP). Their tactic was to
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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              On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Davis Ford wrote:

              > Yeah, I'm curious about this too. I wasn't listening to Muslimgauze in
              > 1990, so I can't recall if I *did* or *did not* see any of his records
              > around then, but I find it odd that he would be blacklisted. The only
              > censorship the US has really seen has been through Tipper Gore and the PMRC,
              > and I they were more concerned with rap, punk, and metal artists of the day

              I think they were more concerned about artists people heard of or could
              actually buy at normal record stores (Wendy O' Williams, RIP). Their
              tactic was to exert pressure on the major labels through popular
              protest/lobbying- their lasting legacy is the "Explicit Content" warning
              label (and perhaps clean versions of popular rap albums- the two are sort
              of interchangable to me).

              In order for any real kind of govt (or even industry) sponsored censorship
              to have kicked in, somebody would have had to noticed and the material
              would have to be deemed obscene or otherwise detrimental to society. I
              somehow doubt that Mgauze would have fit either bill.

              If I remember correctly, Muslimgauze records (as a general class of
              things) weren't all that hard to come by in 1990. Though I guess you
              probably would've had to look in the "goth," "industrial" or
              "Palestine-friendly" section (depending on your local buyer).

              just a PG kid in an X-rated society,

              -rob
            • Matthew Weber
              ... sleeve. ... the worst album of ... Sounds office... I don t think it s that bad--there s good stuff (the NWW track e.g.) and bad (Bushido?!), like any
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                At 04:17 PM 04/06/1999 +1040, you wrote:
                >From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                >
                >Nigel Ayers wrote:

                >> Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the Elephant Table
                >> "difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s. Wire readers
                >> wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it said on the
                sleeve.
                >
                >I recall Mensa member (absolutely true!), Gary Bushell, saying this was
                the worst album of
                >all time! I wonder if him & Dave Henderson came to blows over this is the
                Sounds office...

                I don't think it's that bad--there's good stuff (the NWW track e.g.) and
                bad (Bushido?!), like any other comp. I remember that Wm. Bennett reviewed
                it in a KATA and blasted Dave Henderson with both barrels...

                >> What I found problematic then as now is the reactionary motivation he had
                >> for his music, and his support for middle eastern theocrats who are
                >> responsible for various unpleasantness that is taking place outside of this
                >> cosy little community.
                >
                >Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12" were actually
                American pro-Nazi
                >sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently couldn't see
                their crime. Maybe
                >the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I think Brian Duguid
                mentioned
                >anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish to speak ill
                of the dead, just
                >that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....

                This isn't an exact quote (I don't have the printed material close by), but
                Jones was asked whether he would ever consider talking to an Israeli, and
                his reply was something like "No, I wouldn't, they're all horrible people,
                so no." Reading between the lines, the connection between his detestation
                of "KGB/Red scum" and the Israelis, and his espousal of pro-fascist symps
                seems fairly clear.


                Matthew Weber
                Circulation Supervisor
                Music Library
                University of California, Berkeley

                Malt does more than Milton can
                To justify God's ways to man.
                Alfred Edward Housman, "Terence, This Is Stupid Stuff...", 1896
              • Andy Wilson
                ... Hash: SHA1 ... er... you ve lost me. Israelis are KGB / Red Scum ? or what ? and was jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ? seems to me from
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                  > Reading between the lines, the connection between
                  > his detestation
                  > of "KGB/Red scum" and the Israelis, and his espousal of
                  > pro-fascist symps
                  > seems fairly clear.

                  er... you've lost me. Israelis are KGB / Red Scum ? or what ? and was
                  jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ?

                  seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
                  palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
                  Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
                  mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
                  me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
                  the ideology.

                  in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
                  extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism

                  ASIDE: re. the elephant table lp, i remember interviewing nigel ayers
                  and graham from SPK in the early eighties and both being rather angry
                  about the elitism implicit in anyones labelling their own work as
                  'difficult'....

                  - ------------------------------------
                  Andy Wilson
                  Technical Director
                  ZINC
                  http://andyw.zinc.co.uk/
                  http://www.zinc.co.uk/
                  97 Charlotte Street
                  London� W1P 1LB
                  T: 0171 533 0519
                  T: 0171 533 0533
                  M: 0956 902 438
                  F: 0171 533 0534
                  - ------------------------------------



                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Matthew Weber [mailto:mweber@...]
                  > Sent: 06 April 1999 16:52
                  > To: thewire@onelist.com
                  > Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Matthew Weber <mweber@...>
                  >
                  > At 04:17 PM 04/06/1999 +1040, you wrote:
                  > >From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                  > >
                  > >Nigel Ayers wrote:
                  >
                  > >> Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the
                  > Elephant Table
                  > >> "difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s.
                  > Wire readers
                  > >> wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it
                  > said on the
                  > sleeve.
                  > >
                  > >I recall Mensa member (absolutely true!), Gary Bushell,
                  > saying this was
                  > the worst album of
                  > >all time! I wonder if him & Dave Henderson came to blows
                  > over this is the
                  > Sounds office...
                  >
                  > I don't think it's that bad--there's good stuff (the NWW
                  > track e.g.) and
                  > bad (Bushido?!), like any other comp. I remember that Wm.
                  > Bennett reviewed
                  > it in a KATA and blasted Dave Henderson with both barrels...
                  >
                  > >> What I found problematic then as now is the reactionary
                  > motivation he had
                  > >> for his music, and his support for middle eastern theocrats who
                  are
                  > >> responsible for various unpleasantness that is taking
                  > place outside of this
                  > >> cosy little community.
                  > >
                  > >Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12"
                  > were actually
                  > American pro-Nazi
                  > >sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently
                  > couldn't see
                  > their crime. Maybe
                  > >the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I
                  > think Brian Duguid
                  > mentioned
                  > >anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish
                  > to speak ill
                  > of the dead, just
                  > >that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....
                  >
                  > This isn't an exact quote (I don't have the printed material
                  > close by), but
                  > Jones was asked whether he would ever consider talking to an
                  > Israeli, and
                  > his reply was something like "No, I wouldn't, they're all
                  > horrible people,
                  > so no." Reading between the lines, the connection between
                  > his detestation
                  > of "KGB/Red scum" and the Israelis, and his espousal of
                  > pro-fascist symps
                  > seems fairly clear.
                  >
                  >
                  > Matthew Weber
                  > Circulation Supervisor
                  > Music Library
                  > University of California, Berkeley
                  >
                  > Malt does more than Milton can
                  > To justify God's ways to man.
                  > Alfred Edward Housman, "Terence, This Is Stupid Stuff...", 1896
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ----------
                  > Is ONElist important to you? Has it changed your life?
                  > http://www.onelist.com
                  > Come visit our new web site and share with us your stories
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------
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                • Matthew Weber
                  ... To certain far-right extremists, they are linked as part of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy: in their view it was the Jews who were responsible for the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                    At 05:01 PM 04/06/1999 +0100, you wrote:
                    >From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
                    >
                    >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                    >Hash: SHA1
                    >
                    >> Reading between the lines, the connection between
                    >> his detestation
                    >> of "KGB/Red scum" and the Israelis, and his espousal of
                    >> pro-fascist symps
                    >> seems fairly clear.
                    >
                    >er... you've lost me. Israelis are KGB / Red Scum ? or what ?

                    To certain far-right extremists, they are linked as part of the worldwide
                    Jewish conspiracy: in their view it was the Jews who were responsible for
                    the Russian Revolution and the establishment of Communist totalitarianism
                    in the East.

                    >and was
                    >jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ?

                    I don't think I addressed this, but as far as I am aware Bryn Jones never
                    wore any army's uniform.

                    >seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
                    >palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
                    >Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
                    >mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
                    >me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
                    >the ideology.

                    I'm not a fan of either extremity. The extreme Zionists are just as bad as
                    far as I'm concerned.

                    >in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
                    >extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism

                    I think *theocracy* -> proto-fascism is an obvious, never mind easy,
                    equation (I have no problem calling Meir Kahane a fascist either). I'm
                    sure you're aware of the neo-Nazi trope equating the Red Menace with the
                    Zionist Occupation Government; that's what I was alluding to in my earlier
                    message.

                    I'm sure I've only managed to muddy the waters further...



                    Matthew Weber
                    Circulation Supervisor
                    Music Library
                    University of California, Berkeley

                    Malt does more than Milton can
                    To justify God's ways to man.
                    Alfred Edward Housman, "Terence, This Is Stupid Stuff...", 1896
                  • ori gordon
                    Matthew Weber wrote (correctly): Jones was asked whether he would ever consider talking to an Israeli, and his reply was something like No, I wouldn t,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                      Matthew Weber wrote (correctly):


                      "Jones was asked whether he would ever consider talking to an Israeli, and
                      his reply was something like "No, I wouldn't, they're all horrible people,
                      so no."

                      well, he did: about a year ago he was interviewed by Ohad Pishoff, for an
                      israely newspaper. it was published in two israly newspapers (local ones,
                      but the biggest local newspapers in israel). i think i can get the text &
                      translate it back to english, if anyone is interested, but as far as i
                      remember you won't find much surprises there.
                    • DeeDee
                      if anyone is interested, but as far as ... Please do ! I´m dying to read that. Cheers, DeeDee _________________________________________________________ Do You
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                        if anyone is interested, but as far as
                        > i
                        > remember you won't find much surprises there.


                        Please do ! I�m dying to read that.

                        Cheers,
                        DeeDee
                        _________________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • Dave
                        ... While I m not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism - proto-facism, seems to be more
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                          At 05:01 PM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
                          >From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
                          >seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
                          >palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
                          >Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
                          >mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
                          >me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
                          >the ideology.
                          >
                          >in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
                          >extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism

                          While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
                          anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
                          seems to be more accurate. I remember a few years back when there were a
                          lot of Russian gentils emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic
                          citizenship because of an Israeli law which grants it to anyone with a
                          Jewish grandfather, that there was talk of repealling the law in order to,
                          in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                          Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                          disagree.

                          -dave

                          >- ------------------------------------
                          >Andy Wilson
                          >Technical Director
                          >ZINC
                          >http://andyw.zinc.co.uk/
                          >http://www.zinc.co.uk/
                          >97 Charlotte Street
                          >London W1P 1LB
                          >T: 0171 533 0519
                          >T: 0171 533 0533
                          >M: 0956 902 438
                          >F: 0171 533 0534
                          >- ------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >> -----Original Message-----
                          >> From: Matthew Weber [mailto:mweber@...]
                          >> Sent: 06 April 1999 16:52
                          >> To: thewire@onelist.com
                          >> Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> From: Matthew Weber <mweber@...>
                          >>
                          >> At 04:17 PM 04/06/1999 +1040, you wrote:
                          >> >From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                          >> >
                          >> >Nigel Ayers wrote:
                          >>
                          >> >> Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the
                          >> Elephant Table
                          >> >> "difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s.
                          >> Wire readers
                          >> >> wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it
                          >> said on the
                          >> sleeve.
                          >> >
                          >> >I recall Mensa member (absolutely true!), Gary Bushell,
                          >> saying this was
                          >> the worst album of
                          >> >all time! I wonder if him & Dave Henderson came to blows
                          >> over this is the
                          >> Sounds office...
                          >>
                          >> I don't think it's that bad--there's good stuff (the NWW
                          >> track e.g.) and
                          >> bad (Bushido?!), like any other comp. I remember that Wm.
                          >> Bennett reviewed
                          >> it in a KATA and blasted Dave Henderson with both barrels...
                          >>
                          >> >> What I found problematic then as now is the reactionary
                          >> motivation he had
                          >> >> for his music, and his support for middle eastern theocrats who
                          >are
                          >> >> responsible for various unpleasantness that is taking
                          >> place outside of this
                          >> >> cosy little community.
                          >> >
                          >> >Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12"
                          >> were actually
                          >> American pro-Nazi
                          >> >sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently
                          >> couldn't see
                          >> their crime. Maybe
                          >> >the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I
                          >> think Brian Duguid
                          >> mentioned
                          >> >anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish
                          >> to speak ill
                          >> of the dead, just
                          >> >that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....
                          >>
                          >> This isn't an exact quote (I don't have the printed material
                          >> close by), but
                          >> Jones was asked whether he would ever consider talking to an
                          >> Israeli, and
                          >> his reply was something like "No, I wouldn't, they're all
                          >> horrible people,
                          >> so no." Reading between the lines, the connection between
                          >> his detestation
                          >> of "KGB/Red scum" and the Israelis, and his espousal of
                          >> pro-fascist symps
                          >> seems fairly clear.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Matthew Weber
                          >> Circulation Supervisor
                          >> Music Library
                          >> University of California, Berkeley
                          >>
                          >> Malt does more than Milton can
                          >> To justify God's ways to man.
                          >> Alfred Edward Housman, "Terence, This Is Stupid Stuff...", 1896
                          >>
                          >> --------------------------------------------------------------
                          >> ----------
                          >> Is ONElist important to you? Has it changed your life?
                          >> http://www.onelist.com
                          >> Come visit our new web site and share with us your stories
                          >> --------------------------------------------------------------
                          >> ----------
                          >> TheWire List Info Page:
                          >http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
                          >>
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                        • Taylor McLaren
                          ... In both cases, I m tempted to pull out the Eco and say something about how difficult and experimental often happen to be convenient terms for whatever
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                            MEEP! Nigel Ayers <nigel.ayers@...> wrote:
                            >Wherever you went Muslimgauze records were always to be found in the
                            >"experimental" sections under "M"... [deletia]
                            >Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the Elephant Table
                            >"difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s. Wire readers
                            >wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it said on the sleeve.
                            In both cases, I'm tempted to pull out the Eco and say something about how
                            "difficult" and "experimental" often happen to be convenient terms for
                            whatever the categorizer happens to like, as can be seen in the number of
                            college DJs who call Skinny Puppy experimental to this day, even when
                            they're playing their favourite track from _Cleanse, Fold & Manipulate_.
                            Like Everall said, those terms are handy when it comes to finding a record
                            somewhere in a big store, or even for selling a compilation to suspicious
                            distributors in the first place, but it doesn't mean much in terms of what
                            the artist's intentions for the music.
                            ...at which point I have to choke down the fact that I generally consider
                            an artist's intentions to be secondary at best, what with the fact that
                            it's awfully easy to know nothing about those intentions when hearing and
                            evaluating music for the first time (hence Puppy's enduring "experimental"
                            tag, my lack of regard for V/VM's "Machine Components" series, etc.), and
                            clumsily rationalize the contradiction by saying that maybe it only matters
                            once you've done the geek-fan thing and read a couple of interviews. Or
                            maybe make a populist statement about how one should be less concerned with
                            claims for experimental/difficult/authentic status and more with the music
                            itself, but that would interfere with my love of product. (That would be a
                            thin layer of joke on top of a healthy helping of reasonably serious
                            commentary, for those who don't know me very well.)
                            ...none of which goes very far towards answering the
                            repetition/tradition vs. experimentation point that you raised earlier, but
                            pedant that I am, the use of Muslimgauze as a counter-example got a posting
                            out of me. More than anything else these days, I'm likely to go with the
                            suggestion that audience background counts for a lot when it comes to
                            determining what something is called, how it's reviewed, etc. Big surprise,
                            and place another check mark next to "Reader Response Theory" on the tally
                            card, would you?

                            -me
                          • Taylor McLaren
                            ... If anybody is interested in a reasonably hands-off approach to the debate (at least in terms of there being no obvious political agenda advanced beyond a
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 6, 1999
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                              MEEP! Dave <pure@...> wrote:
                              >While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
                              >anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
                              >seems to be more accurate.
                              If anybody is interested in a reasonably hands-off approach to the debate
                              (at least in terms of there being no obvious political agenda advanced
                              beyond a fairly strong desire to see some sort of peace found in the
                              region), Arthur Milner's play, _Masada_, provides a neat take on the
                              history of Israel in the form of a lecture to a community group that is
                              derailed toward the end by some ultra-nationalist chest-beating. At least
                              in terms of showing how one train of thought can easily be switched over to
                              a different track, it's a worthwhile (and very quick) read. (Canadian
                              readers with access to a university library should find it fairly easily in
                              the collection _Singular Voices_, put out by Playwrights Canada Press back
                              in 1994... other folks might find it easiest to contact PCP directly;
                              e-mail me if you want more information.)

                              -me
                            • Andy Wilson
                              ... Hash: SHA1 ... redgrave wasn t in the risible rcp, she was in the risible wrp..... - ------------------------------------ Andy Wilson Technical Director
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                Hash: SHA1

                                john, points taken, except:

                                > Miners as "Red Scum" - although the less said about the
                                > risible RCP, the
                                > better....

                                redgrave wasn't in the risible rcp, she was in the risible wrp.....

                                - ------------------------------------
                                Andy Wilson
                                Technical Director
                                ZINC
                                http://andyw.zinc.co.uk/
                                http://www.zinc.co.uk/
                                97 Charlotte Street
                                London� W1P 1LB
                                T: 0171 533 0519
                                T: 0171 533 0533
                                M: 0956 902 438
                                F: 0171 533 0534
                                - ------------------------------------



                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: John Everall [mailto:john.sentrax@...]
                                > Sent: 06 April 1999 09:27
                                > To: thewire@onelist.com
                                > Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
                                >
                                >
                                > From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                                >
                                > Andy Wilson wrote:
                                >
                                > >and was
                                > > jones actually a mujahadeen supporter in Afganistan ?
                                >
                                > According to the limited correspodence I had with him in the early
                                > eighties, yes, I would say he undoubtedly was.
                                >
                                > > in all, i would be very careful before making such easy
                                > equations as:
                                > > extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
                                >
                                > The original reference was to Jones' anti-semitism, not simply to
                                his
                                > anti-zionist stance. Vanessa Redgrave supported the PLO & made
                                > anti-zionist statements, although, unlike Jones, was careful
                                > to distance
                                > her political viewpoint from a racially-based blanket denunciation
                                of
                                > Jewish people generally.However, I never heard her refer to striking

                                > Miners as "Red Scum" - although the less said about the
                                > risible RCP, the
                                > better....
                                >
                                > > ASIDE: re. the elephant table lp, i remember interviewing
                                > nigel ayers
                                > > and graham from SPK in the early eighties and both being
                                > rather angry
                                > > about the elitism implicit in anyones labelling their own work as
                                > > 'difficult'....
                                >
                                > Can't say that I blame them.......
                                >
                                > John Everall.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------
                                > ----------
                                > Looking to expand your world?
                                > http://www.ONElist.com
                                > ONElist has over 115,000 e-mail communities from which to chose!
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------
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                              • Franco Ingrassia
                                ... Shame on you. ... De: Jonathan Meade Para: thewire@onelist.com Fecha: Miércoles, 07 de Abril de 1999
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                  >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                  >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

                                  >Jon

                                  :o(

                                  Shame on you.

                                  -----Mensaje original-----
                                  De: Jonathan Meade <jon.meade@...>
                                  Para: thewire@onelist.com <thewire@onelist.com>
                                  Fecha: Mi�rcoles, 07 de Abril de 1999 07:05 a.m.
                                  Asunto: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it


                                  >From: "Jonathan Meade" <jon.meade@...>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >----------
                                  >>From: Dave <pure@...>
                                  >>To: thewire@onelist.com
                                  >>Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
                                  >>Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 4:30
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >> From: Dave <pure@...>
                                  >>
                                  >> At 05:01 PM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
                                  >>>From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
                                  >>>seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
                                  >>>palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
                                  >>>Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
                                  >>>mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
                                  >>>me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
                                  >>>the ideology.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
                                  >>>extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
                                  >>
                                  >> While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
                                  >> anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
                                  >> seems to be more accurate. I remember a few years back when there were a
                                  >> lot of Russian gentils emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic
                                  >> citizenship because of an Israeli law which grants it to anyone with a
                                  >> Jewish grandfather, that there was talk of repealling the law in order
                                  to,
                                  >> in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                                  >> Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free
                                  to
                                  >> disagree.
                                  >>
                                  >> -dave
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                  >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
                                  >
                                  >Jon
                                  >
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                                  >http://www.ONElist.com
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                                • Jonathan Meade
                                  ... This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck s sake Jon
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                    ----------
                                    >From: Dave <pure@...>
                                    >To: thewire@onelist.com
                                    >Subject: [thewire] Re: DJs say you're doing it
                                    >Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 4:30
                                    >

                                    > From: Dave <pure@...>
                                    >
                                    > At 05:01 PM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
                                    >>From: Andy Wilson <AndyW@...>
                                    >>seems to me from this debate that his politics were just extreme
                                    >>palestinian nationalism and, in essence, not so different from extreme
                                    >>Israeli nationalism / zionism....... *formally* speaking they're weird
                                    >>mirror images of one another, though in 99% of situations you'd find
                                    >>me marching on the side of palestinian nationalism while laughing at
                                    >>the ideology.
                                    >>
                                    >>in all, i would be very careful before making such easy equations as:
                                    >>extreme anti-zionism -> proto-fascism
                                    >
                                    > While I'm not a supporter of either extreme zionism or extreme
                                    > anti-zionism, if anything the opposite, extreme zionism -> proto-facism,
                                    > seems to be more accurate. I remember a few years back when there were a
                                    > lot of Russian gentils emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic
                                    > citizenship because of an Israeli law which grants it to anyone with a
                                    > Jewish grandfather, that there was talk of repealling the law in order to,
                                    > in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                                    > Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                                    > disagree.
                                    >
                                    > -dave


                                    This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                    Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

                                    Jon
                                  • George Papanagiotou
                                    ... well, with no intention to disagree, it is indeed ironic to read your next message referring to the agony of the consumer/cultist which in many terms is a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                      > This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                      > Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
                                      >
                                      > Jon

                                      well, with no intention to disagree, it is indeed ironic to read your next
                                      message referring to the agony of the consumer/cultist which in many terms
                                      is a political comment. If only life spheres could be easily separated..
                                      right Jon?

                                      anyway people, I am new in this list and I just wish to express my gratitude
                                      for the volume of information one can retrieve.

                                      George
                                    • ori gordon
                                      since some of you found interest in muslimgauze s interview in israli newspapers, i m going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in these
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                        since some of you found interest in muslimgauze's interview in israli
                                        newspapers, i'm going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in
                                        these papers, so i can get the file, but i guess it will take some time.

                                        more important than that, Dave wrote:
                                        " I remember a few years back when there were a lot of Russian gentils
                                        emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic citizenship because of an Israeli
                                        law which grants it to anyone with a Jewish grandfather, that there was talk
                                        of repealling the law in order to,
                                        in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                                        Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                                        disagree."

                                        no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his empirical
                                        basis for it is very poor.
                                        i don't believe any israli minister SAY anything about "the purity of the
                                        jewish state", and if you can find the exact name & words i'll thank you and
                                        use it in my leftfield propaganda.
                                        though no minister will SAY it, many will believe it. in fact, this law is
                                        used in even more racist way than dave noticed: it is applied automaticaly
                                        for respected white russians, but not so automaticaly for black ethiopians.
                                        and by the way, it is the mother's/grandmother's religion that determines
                                        whether one is jewish or not. judism and islam are not the same oriental
                                        shit.
                                        and last thing about dave's mail: i'm glad to find political awareness here.

                                        jonathan meade wrote:
                                        "This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                        Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake"

                                        music functions in a cultural surrounding, and in many cases one can't say
                                        much interesting things about music (or love of music) without getting into
                                        politics.
                                        if one uses music to find peace of mind in a distrorted world, he may enjoy
                                        it, but it won't make the world any better. the worse case is when consuming
                                        "pure art" becomes THE way of coping with reality.

                                        back to muslimgauze: so how does his music relate to his political ideas?
                                        sadly, in too many cases it is no more than a pale exotic illustration,
                                        though exploring hip-hop made the relation less trivial, and more culturaly
                                        interesting.
                                      • Matthew Weber
                                        ... No, this is a music *list*. ... Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote from and unaffected by politics? (For fuck s sake.)
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                          At 11:06 AM 04/07/1999 +0000, you wrote:

                                          >This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics

                                          No, this is a music *list*.

                                          >Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake

                                          Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote from and
                                          unaffected by politics? (For fuck's sake.)


                                          Matthew Weber
                                          Circulation Supervisor
                                          Music Library
                                          University of California, Berkeley

                                          I look into my glass,
                                          And view my wasting skin,
                                          And say, "would god it came to pass
                                          My heart had shrunk as thin!"

                                          For then, I, undistressed
                                          By hearts grown cold to me,
                                          Could lonely wait my endless rest
                                          With equanimity.

                                          But Time, to make me grieve,
                                          Part steals, lets part abide;
                                          And shakes this fragile frame at eve
                                          With throbbings of noontide.
                                          Thomas Hardy (1840-1928), "I Look Into My Glass," 1898
                                        • Dave
                                          ... Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can t remember his name though. Sorry. -Dave
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                            At 04:24 PM 4/7/99 +0300, you wrote:
                                            >From: "ori gordon" <citizeng@...>
                                            >
                                            >since some of you found interest in muslimgauze's interview in israli
                                            >newspapers, i'm going to find it and translate it for you. i review music in
                                            >these papers, so i can get the file, but i guess it will take some time.
                                            >
                                            >more important than that, Dave wrote:
                                            >" I remember a few years back when there were a lot of Russian gentils
                                            >emigrating to Israel and gaining automatic citizenship because of an Israeli
                                            >law which grants it to anyone with a Jewish grandfather, that there was talk
                                            >of repealling the law in order to,
                                            >in the words of one Israeli gov't minister "preserve the purity of the
                                            >Jewish state." I found that statement mildly frightening, but feel free to
                                            >disagree."
                                            >
                                            >no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his empirical
                                            >basis for it is very poor.

                                            Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can't remember his name though.
                                            Sorry.

                                            -Dave
                                          • ori gordon
                                            ... well, all right, thanks anyway, it was nice to read your mails, and bye for now. ori gordon, tel aviv
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                              re:

                                              >Heard the minister himself say it on NPR. Can't remember his name though.
                                              >Sorry.


                                              well, all right, thanks anyway, it was nice to read your mails, and bye for
                                              now.

                                              ori gordon, tel aviv
                                            • Huang Weijian
                                              ... from and ... Nope.God(or anyone else out there)forbid.
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 7, 1999
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                                                >
                                                >From: Matthew Weber <mweber@...>
                                                >
                                                >At 11:06 AM 04/07/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>This is a music site, talking about a love of music, not politics
                                                >
                                                >No, this is a music *list*.
                                                >
                                                >>Leave politics out of talking about music, for fuck's sake
                                                >
                                                >Does music exist in some kind of hermetically-sealed sphere remote
                                                from and
                                                >unaffected by politics? (For fuck's sake.)
                                                >
                                                Nope.God(or anyone else out there)forbid.
                                              • Oliver Brice
                                                ... empirical ... of the ... you and ... law is ... automaticaly ... ethiopians. ... determines ... oriental ... The law is also rascist in another way; it
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Apr 11, 1999
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  >no disagreement about Dave's gutt-feelings, but i suspect his
                                                  empirical
                                                  >basis for it is very poor.
                                                  >i don't believe any israli minister SAY anything about "the purity
                                                  of the
                                                  >jewish state", and if you can find the exact name & words i'll thank
                                                  you and
                                                  >use it in my leftfield propaganda.
                                                  >though no minister will SAY it, many will believe it. in fact, this
                                                  law is
                                                  >used in even more racist way than dave noticed: it is applied
                                                  automaticaly
                                                  >for respected white russians, but not so automaticaly for black
                                                  ethiopians.
                                                  >and by the way, it is the mother's/grandmother's religion that
                                                  determines
                                                  >whether one is jewish or not. judism and islam are not the same
                                                  oriental
                                                  >shit.
                                                  >

                                                  The law is also rascist in another way; it gives rights to jewish
                                                  citizens that it doesn't give to Arab citizens. However, there is a
                                                  definate tendecy for the English media at least (I don't know about
                                                  the US) to paint a picture of Israel which is not truly
                                                  representative. There are many problems here, its a rascist,
                                                  imperialist and Caplitalist society (like most [all?] of the western
                                                  world) but people do tend to attack with out knowing what they are
                                                  talking about. I agree with Ori that whatever he might think, no
                                                  Israeli politician wopuld use the term "Racial Purity". The Nazi
                                                  conatations would be the end of his political careear.

                                                  Olie
                                                • kvetner.spoog@xxxxx.xxx
                                                  ... I recall some reference to Bryn s anti-Israeli statements in a review in The Wire. The statements quoted about horrible Israelis were originally made in
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Apr 11, 1999
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    >From: John Everall <john.sentrax@...>
                                                    >Ever noticed that the folks on the photo of his first 12" were actually American pro-Nazi
                                                    >sympathisers who were tried after the War. Bryn apparently couldn't see their crime. Maybe
                                                    >the accusations of anti-semitism were true after all. I think Brian Duguid mentioned
                                                    >anti-semitic statements made by Bryn in EST. Not that I wish to speak ill of the dead, just
                                                    >that I feel Bryn Jones held some pretty repulsive views....

                                                    I recall some reference to Bryn's anti-Israeli statements in a review
                                                    in The Wire. The statements quoted about 'horrible Israelis' were
                                                    originally made in The Fifth Path fanzine, and, as mentioned in other
                                                    postings, were specifically anti-Israeli rather than anti-Semitic.
                                                    Regarding the comments to the effect that Bryn supported middle
                                                    eastern theocrats, Bryn made clear that his support was on political
                                                    (nationalist) rather than religious grounds, in the same interview.

                                                    Kvetner Spoog
                                                    Brian Duguid
                                                    brian.duguid@... www.hyperreal.org/~duguid/
                                                  • Nigel Ayers
                                                    Taylor McLaren writes: when has Bryn s music ever been considered to be experimental in any way? The answer to that is until recent years when his music
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , May 6 4:29 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Taylor McLaren writes: "when has Bryn's music ever been considered to be
                                                      experimental in any way?"

                                                      The answer to that is until recent years when his music began to be
                                                      appreciated by ravers and chill-outers.

                                                      Wherever you went Muslimgauze records were always to be found in the
                                                      "experimental" sections under "M". I know this because my own records were
                                                      filed close by them under "N" and I was signed to the same labels,
                                                      Soleilmoon and Staalplaat. Sometimes you might find Bryn's stuff in the
                                                      "world music" section, if there was one.

                                                      Aside from that, a track by Muslimgauze appeared on the Elephant Table
                                                      "difficult listening" compilation album in the early 80s. Wire readers
                                                      wouldn't find it all that difficult - but that's what it said on the sleeve.


                                                      I like some of Bryn's music despite being irritated by its sameyness, or do
                                                      we call it "consistency"?

                                                      I interviewed him for Network News back in 1990 when his records were
                                                      allegedly blacklisted in the USA because of his support for the PLO.

                                                      As far as his music-as-propaganda goes,
                                                      I would agree with him to a degree about the selective and usually
                                                      disasterous nature of USA interference in world affairs.

                                                      What I found problematic then as now is the reactionary motivation he had
                                                      for his music, and his support for middle eastern theocrats who are
                                                      responsible for various unpleasantness that is taking place outside of this
                                                      cosy little community.

                                                      Anyone out there who prefers music to product -

                                                      I have two unplayed vinyl copies of the 1982(?) Recloose Organisation "New
                                                      Internationalist" picture disc LP -featuring an excellent Muslimgauze track,
                                                      which I am willing to sell for as high price as I can get - all profits to
                                                      Kosovo refugees.





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