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Re: [thewire] Composers who will last

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  • Kraig Grady
    Hello George! In the past, it has not always been those that won such contest that survived. Louis Spohr was far more famous than Beethoven, and who has a
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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      Hello George!
      In the past, it has not always been those that won such contest that
      survived. Louis Spohr was far more famous than
      Beethoven, and who has a recording of him now. In the future though, such "music
      by the pound" might be the only way one
      can survive.
      Another question altogether, will composers as we know of it survive. To
      get performances has become such a "political" act and the complete lack of
      "patrons" per se (at least in the states) leave little method of such animal to
      even exist for long
      periods. Such positions of compromise there are, are not indicative towards a
      furthering of the art in general.
      There are so many other fruitful mediums for those who wish to engage in a
      creative molding of sound besides the printed
      score, with more possibilities, that the old fashioned methods are and will be
      on the decline. The orchestra art his point has
      become the great expresser of nostalgia of which these two you mentioned have
      infused a few moments of live into. As
      innovative as the music of the second half of the 20th century has been, it is
      also a period of the greatest musical
      Cul-de-sacs. In the sense of music that cannot be taken much further in concept,
      like those hybridized plants and flowers that
      produce no fertile offspring after the initial year. Fortunately a few viable
      plants are with us. Some of these might be referred to as "weeds". Often what
      happens to plants though is that they are cultivated and then they are ignored
      are revert back to a their
      state, but because of cultivation, they are stronger. these are referred to as
      "Escaped Cultivores" and some of the most vibrant
      direction music has taken is just from such quarters.
      I have warned myself not to engage in such diatribes, but here i have done
      so, and are not wise enough to delete it either.


      George Cruickshank wrote:

      > What about Arvo Part and John Tavener ?
      >
      > I know more people who own more recordings of work by these guys than all of
      > the others put together, with the possible exception of Glass.
      >
      > George
      > www.ultimathule.info
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steeples Paul (Mr PW) [mailto:paul.steeples@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 2:32 AM
      > To: 'Wire'
      > Subject: [thewire] Composers who will last
      >
      > In an obituary of Luciano Berio, the English composer Michael Berkeley
      > said
      > that he and the pianist Alfred Brendel had included Berio in a list they
      > had
      > compiled a couple of years ago of the five or six living composers whose
      > work was likely to be remembered by history. He wouldn't say directly who
      > the others were, but said that (other than Berio) one was English, one
      > Hungarian, one American and one French, with a German as the debatable
      > sixth.
      >
      > At a guess, this gives us Harrison Birtwistle, Georgy Ligeti, Elliot
      > Carter,
      > and Pierre Boulez, with Karlheinz Stockhausen as the debatable one. I
      > suppose the Hungarian could be Kurtag, the American Glass or Reich and the
      > German Henze, but I doubt it.
      >
      > This is a distressingly conventional line-up, and, with the possible
      > exception of Birtwistle, could have been put forward at any time since the
      > mid '60s. Does anyone have a more exciting list? Or is this really proof
      > that contemporary classical music is pretty much moribund?
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > the wire mailing list
      > post: thewire@yahoogroups.com
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thewire/
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > the wire mailing list
      > post: thewire@yahoogroups.com
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thewire/
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      -- -Kraig Grady
      North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
      http://www.anaphoria.com
      The Wandering Medicine Show
      KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
    • gradyfinklemyer
      The Beating of Wings and Alphabed, on ztt, are both good places to start. The latest, Time at Rest Devouring Its Secret is good too, although more electronic.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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        The Beating of Wings and Alphabed, on ztt, are both good places to
        start. The latest, Time at Rest Devouring Its Secret is good too,
        although more electronic.

        --- In thewire@yahoogroups.com, "gplcob" <g.cobert@t...> wrote:
        > > Poppy is a UK
        > > minimalist, or was when I heard stuff by him some years ago (the
        > ZTT label
        > > promoted him quite heavily at one stage). Not heard anything
        recent
        > by him
        > > at all.
        >
        > The same ZTT label that I know mostly for industrial and techno
        > records ??? anyway, your description of the guy looks interesting,
        is
        > there any specific record you could recommend to discover his
        music ?
        > Thanks in advance
        > Gwendal
      • gary goldfinch
        ... and he wrote the theme for The Tube. not that that helps really. .g ________________________________________________ www.garyleeg.f9.co.uk
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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          >> Poppy is a UK
          >> minimalist, or was when I heard stuff by him some years ago (the
          >ZTT label
          >> promoted him quite heavily at one stage). Not heard anything recent
          >by him
          >> at all.
          >

          and he wrote the theme for The Tube.

          not that that helps really.

          .g







          ________________________________________________
          www.garyleeg.f9.co.uk
        • George Cruickshank
          Hi Kraig, I think longevity has a lot to do with listenability. Unfortunately, whilst a lot of 20th century western classical music is historically important
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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            Hi Kraig,

            I think longevity has a lot to do with listenability. Unfortunately, whilst
            a lot of 20th century western classical music is "historically important"
            it's also tends to sound like utter crap - which is a fairly difficult
            handicap to be saddled with in a world where holding people's attention for
            anything more than 3 minutes at a time (or 30 seconds in the US!) is an
            increasinly competitive business.

            Composers whose work at least partly recognises that populism has always
            been an important creative driver, and who can "connect" with their audience
            at a level profound enough to make them part with their money are, to my
            mind, far more likely to have an extended historic legacy than those who
            don't.

            I'm not entirely in agreement with the proposition that the western
            classical tradition is in terminal decline; if it is, then I don't see that
            that decline is greater than that of any other musical tradition. We are
            still a long way from a true global monoculture, and until we get there
            external cultural influences are still capable of throwing up unique and
            interesting artistic outputs.

            One of the best I've recently encountered has been "Supreme Silence" by
            Estonian composer Peeter Vahi, which very effectively infuses western
            classical forms with those of Tibetan Buddhism.

            George
            www.ultimathule.info

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@...]
            Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 3:00 AM
            To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [thewire] Composers who will last


            Hello George!
            In the past, it has not always been those that won such contest that
            survived. Louis Spohr was far more famous than
            Beethoven, and who has a recording of him now. In the future though, such
            "music
            by the pound" might be the only way one
            can survive.
            Another question altogether, will composers as we know of it survive.
            To
            get performances has become such a "political" act and the complete lack
            of
            "patrons" per se (at least in the states) leave little method of such
            animal to
            even exist for long
            periods. Such positions of compromise there are, are not indicative
            towards a
            furthering of the art in general.
            There are so many other fruitful mediums for those who wish to engage
            in a
            creative molding of sound besides the printed
            score, with more possibilities, that the old fashioned methods are and
            will be
            on the decline. The orchestra art his point has
            become the great expresser of nostalgia of which these two you mentioned
            have
            infused a few moments of live into. As
            innovative as the music of the second half of the 20th century has been,
            it is
            also a period of the greatest musical
            Cul-de-sacs. In the sense of music that cannot be taken much further in
            concept,
            like those hybridized plants and flowers that
            produce no fertile offspring after the initial year. Fortunately a few
            viable
            plants are with us. Some of these might be referred to as "weeds". Often
            what
            happens to plants though is that they are cultivated and then they are
            ignored
            are revert back to a their
            state, but because of cultivation, they are stronger. these are referred
            to as
            "Escaped Cultivores" and some of the most vibrant
            direction music has taken is just from such quarters.
            I have warned myself not to engage in such diatribes, but here i have
            done
            so, and are not wise enough to delete it either.


            George Cruickshank wrote:

            > What about Arvo Part and John Tavener ?
            >
            > I know more people who own more recordings of work by these guys than
            all of
            > the others put together, with the possible exception of Glass.
            >
            > George
            > www.ultimathule.info
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Steeples Paul (Mr PW) [mailto:paul.steeples@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 2:32 AM
            > To: 'Wire'
            > Subject: [thewire] Composers who will last
            >
            > In an obituary of Luciano Berio, the English composer Michael Berkeley
            > said
            > that he and the pianist Alfred Brendel had included Berio in a list
            they
            > had
            > compiled a couple of years ago of the five or six living composers
            whose
            > work was likely to be remembered by history. He wouldn't say directly
            who
            > the others were, but said that (other than Berio) one was English, one
            > Hungarian, one American and one French, with a German as the debatable
            > sixth.
            >
            > At a guess, this gives us Harrison Birtwistle, Georgy Ligeti, Elliot
            > Carter,
            > and Pierre Boulez, with Karlheinz Stockhausen as the debatable one. I
            > suppose the Hungarian could be Kurtag, the American Glass or Reich and
            the
            > German Henze, but I doubt it.
            >
            > This is a distressingly conventional line-up, and, with the possible
            > exception of Birtwistle, could have been put forward at any time since
            the
            > mid '60s. Does anyone have a more exciting list? Or is this really
            proof
            > that contemporary classical music is pretty much moribund?
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > the wire mailing list
            > post: thewire@yahoogroups.com
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thewire/
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > the wire mailing list
            > post: thewire@yahoogroups.com
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thewire/
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            -- -Kraig Grady
            North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
            http://www.anaphoria.com
            The Wandering Medicine Show
            KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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          • Guillaume Grenier
            ... One name: Wolfgang Rihm Here s some words I wrote about him in a message I sent to another list ... g. -- Guillaume Grenier - grenier.g@videotron.ca in
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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              On 25/06/03 04:17, Steeples Paul (Mr PW) said in living color:

              > Scelsi isn't alive, but wrote some excellent music. Arguably, Xenakis would
              > have counted when they compiled the list, because I think he died quite
              > recently. Lou Harrison is dead too, but not sure about McPhee. Harvey is
              > intense religious music with very creative use of electronics. Poppy is a UK
              > minimalist, or was when I heard stuff by him some years ago (the ZTT label
              > promoted him quite heavily at one stage). Not heard anything recent by him
              > at all.
              >
              > My problem is that many of my favoured candidates - Feldman, Schnittke,
              > Xenakis, Scelsi - are dead, hence my concern about contemporary classical
              > music becoming moribund. But I've enjoyed stuff by Gavin Bryars, Kaija
              > Saariaho, LaMonte Young, Glenn Branca and Giya Kancheli, and hope it might
              > outlast them. Andriessen's stuff has never worked for me, I'm afraid, but
              > plenty of people seem to like him.

              One name: Wolfgang Rihm

              Here's some words I wrote about him in a message I sent to another list
              recently:

              > I have three (and a half) Rihm releases currently (planning on getting
              > more...). I think readers of this list would enjoy "Étude d'après Séraphin"
              > (edition zkm/Wergo), a very dark, ominous piece which mixes an instrumental
              > ensemble (percussion, trombones, double-basses, etc.) and a tape.
              >
              > In a completely different style, "Jagden und Formen" (Hunts and Forms; DG
              > 20/21) is very, very good. This one is much more all over the place than
              > "Séraphin", which, aesthetically speaking, is pretty consistent from beginning
              > to end. It's a bit reminiscent of recent Boulez (e.g. Répons) maybe, with that
              > prismatic treatment of harmony... and it's also the result (stage) of a
              > work-in-progress, like much of what Boulez does.




              About still-living composers of importance -- still from an earlier posting:

              > Eotvos, Ferneyhough, Glass, Gubaidulina, Knussen, Lachenmann, Lindberg,
              > Murail, Reich, Rihm, Rzewski, Saarihao, Sciarrino

              g.

              --
              Guillaume Grenier - grenier.g@...

              in space there is no north in space there is no south
              in space there is no east in space there is no west
            • Kraig Grady
              Hello George ... yes and this of course changes but not everything is accepted as so many thought it would be. ... I would say that those who can speak the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 25, 2003
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                Hello George

                George Cruickshank wrote:

                > Hi Kraig,
                >
                > I think longevity has a lot to do with listenability.

                yes and this of course changes but not everything is accepted as so many thought
                it would be.

                >
                > Composers whose work at least partly recognises that populism has always
                > been an important creative driver, and who can "connect" with their audience
                > at a level profound enough to make them part with their money are, to my
                > mind, far more likely to have an extended historic legacy than those who
                > don't.

                I would say that those who can speak the language of their tribe on some level
                are the ones that last. But often what sells today ends up in the bin tomorrow,
                in fact it is the rule these days. Few composers who have lasted did the best
                economically. Feldman couldn't get anything recorded until he died basically.

                >
                >
                > I'm not entirely in agreement with the proposition that the western
                > classical tradition is in terminal decline; if it is, then I don't see that
                > that decline is greater than that of any other musical tradition.

                the problem is in the economics. Lets take a composer like Reich who wrote great
                works when he choose the instrumenttation. As soon as he was forced into taken
                commisions, the natural flow seem to be interfered with and none of it has this
                freshness, even though he has written some good works.

                > We are
                > still a long way from a true global monoculture, and until we get there
                > external cultural influences are still capable of throwing up unique and
                > interesting artistic outputs.

                I hope we don't reach a monoculture and outside of superficialities, many of the
                worlds music are incompatable. For instance , as soon as you change the tuning
                of some non western music , you have basically taken away it idenity and often
                its musical meaning from where it came. but this is one of my particular field
                of interest/study. Personally, even being a westerner, i find the use of western
                tuning , and for the most part its instruments, of little use to what i wish to
                accomplish. Sure many players can play in different tunings now, but the entire
                timbre of the instrument evolved according to what it was playing. hence it
                doesn't sound right playing such things.


                >
                >
                > One of the best I've recently encountered has been "Supreme Silence" by
                > Estonian composer Peeter Vahi, which very effectively infuses western
                > classical forms with those of Tibetan Buddhism.

                But the amount of this music that is capable of being assimulated is very
                little. but many beginnings often result in misunderstandings, and i guess on a
                certain level , we should not be afraid to misunderstand.

                >
                >
                > George
                > www.ultimathule.info
                >

                -- -Kraig Grady
                North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
                http://www.anaphoria.com
                The Wandering Medicine Show
                KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
              • R. Lim
                ... I think it has less to do with listenability and more to do with the ability to influence subsequent music production. This is what s happening when
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 26, 2003
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                  On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Kraig Grady wrote:

                  > > I think longevity has a lot to do with listenability.
                  >
                  > yes and this of course changes but not everything is accepted as so many thought
                  > it would be.

                  I think it has less to do with listenability and more to do with the
                  ability to influence subsequent music production. This is what's
                  happening when people are considered to be "ahead of their time" (which
                  they basically help to create/define in a weird way). Recent examples of
                  this would probably include the MC5, the Velvets and even stuff like Neu
                  and Rallizes Denudes.

                  By the way, I'm somewhat disappointed that nobody's mentioned Kraig's new
                  CD here. Where's the Wire-list love? I haven't heard the whole thing,
                  but the bit I managed to catch sounded very nice- fans of organic drone
                  (Organum pops to mind) would be well advised to investigate. Now if
                  someone would clue me into some of its participants (besides the estimable
                  Rod Poole, of course)...

                  -rob

                  --
                  This Saturday 6/28 @ 2AM Eastern: Mandog live on the Janitor From Mars/WFMU
                  Internet broadcast available at http://www.wfmu.org
                • Kraig Grady
                  Hello Rob! ... no zoviet France or Hafler trio? ... Thanks for the plug Rob and someone will think this was preplanned :) It starts off melodic with narrow
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 26, 2003
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                    Hello Rob!

                    "R. Lim" wrote:

                    >
                    > I think it has less to do with listenability and more to do with the
                    > ability to influence subsequent music production. Recent examples of
                    > this would probably include the MC5, the Velvets and even stuff like Neu
                    > and Rallizes Denudes.

                    no zoviet France or Hafler trio?

                    >
                    > By the way, I'm somewhat disappointed that nobody's mentioned Kraig's new
                    > CD here. Where's the Wire-list love? I haven't heard the whole thing,
                    > but the bit I managed to catch sounded very nice- fans of organic drone
                    > (Organum pops to mind) would be well advised to investigate.

                    Thanks for the plug Rob and someone will think this was preplanned :)
                    It starts off melodic with narrow bands for quite a while ,but by the end it is
                    something else (very last track). if you play it just loud enough one can hear a
                    resultant beat pattern generated by the tuning of the instruments.

                    > Now if
                    > someone would clue me into some of its participants (besides the estimable
                    > Rod Poole, of course)...

                    Most are just making there name known here but have already made a mark in the music
                    scene here.
                    Jessica Catron, Harris Eisenstadt and TJ troy are well known in LA as part of the
                    vibrant Free improv scene. Fortunately they are also skilled enough to deal with this
                    more predetermined music.
                    Mike Robbins has been responsible for numerous great Steve Reich performances
                    including Music from 18 musicians and Drumming. these continue to be great
                    performances of these and a real treat since they are hard to hear live.
                    Erin Barnes is my constant performing partner as part of the ensemble of 31 birds
                    which includes often Tara Tavi and Whitney Arnold (also a part of my Shadow theater
                    group).
                    Daphne Chen Is now a violinist with Quezal.
                    Pete McRae is another microtonal guitar glayer but has played in numerous rock bands.

                    Rod's contribution was limited to recording the middle section. Although we both work
                    in Just intonation, we have taken our work in opposite direction, pitch and
                    otherwise. Regardless we have been sharing bills here for years

                    All in all, i shy away from the classically trained , if that is all they do

                    >
                    >
                    > -rob
                    >
                    >

                    -- -Kraig Grady
                    North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
                    http://www.anaphoria.com
                    The Wandering Medicine Show
                    KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
                  • michael jackson
                    Most of my favorites are dead too ! Xenakis, Donatoni, Scelsi, Cage, Feldman, B.A. Zimmermann, Berio The idea of creating a definitve list seems rather silly
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 26, 2003
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                      Most of my favorites are dead too !
                      Xenakis, Donatoni, Scelsi, Cage, Feldman, B.A. Zimmermann, Berio
                      The idea of creating a definitve list seems rather silly
                      I'm sorry I disagree about Rihm; I've listened to several of his works and
                      they do very little for me.
                      As far as the minimalists...of course they will live on...the drivel never
                      stops ! Only kidding, as a teenager
                      the works of Riley & Reich especially were enlightening. When i discovered
                      Feldman & Scelsi (among others), however, the idea of the moment (or lack
                      thereof) took on new meaning(s).
                      I don't keep up with contemporary composers like like I did in the student
                      days, but of the living that will make an indelible mark must include
                      Ferneyhough, Carter, Stockhausen,Ligeti, Kagel & Boulez...and I hope more
                      people will discover the likes of James Dillon, Richard Barrett & Francisco
                      Guerrero(sp?)
                      I must pass on Birtwistle, Henze (save for some of the early
                      'theatre-politico' works and Glass (of course
                      it will last...it's there whether you know it or not)
                      When I was around 11 years old I bought an LP by the Art Of Noise on the ZTT
                      label...also sorry to say I know nothing of Andrew Poppy...nice name though
                      !

                      j


                      >From: "Steeples Paul (Mr PW)" <paul.steeples@...>
                      >Reply-To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: "'thewire@yahoogroups.com'" <thewire@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: RE: [thewire] Re: Composers who will last
                      >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:17:35 +0100
                      >
                      >Scelsi isn't alive, but wrote some excellent music. Arguably, Xenakis would
                      >have counted when they compiled the list, because I think he died quite
                      >recently. Lou Harrison is dead too, but not sure about McPhee. Harvey is
                      >intense religious music with very creative use of electronics. Poppy is a
                      >UK
                      >minimalist, or was when I heard stuff by him some years ago (the ZTT label
                      >promoted him quite heavily at one stage). Not heard anything recent by him
                      >at all.
                      >
                      >My problem is that many of my favoured candidates - Feldman, Schnittke,
                      >Xenakis, Scelsi - are dead, hence my concern about contemporary classical
                      >music becoming moribund. But I've enjoyed stuff by Gavin Bryars, Kaija
                      >Saariaho, LaMonte Young, Glenn Branca and Giya Kancheli, and hope it might
                      >outlast them. Andriessen's stuff has never worked for me, I'm afraid, but
                      >plenty of people seem to like him.
                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@...]
                      >Sent: 25 June 2003 06:12
                      >To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [thewire] Re: Composers who will last
                      >
                      >
                      >i don't think Colin McPhee is still alive or xenakis, or Scelsi, the first
                      >i
                      >would have to replace with Lou Harrison
                      >as a better take of simular subject albeit different islands. Don't know
                      >Jonathan Harvey or Andrew Poppy (I hate to admit, but not to proud to)
                      >would have to include
                      >La Monte Young
                      >Steve Reich
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • Perfect Sound Forever
                      Interesting discussion here! Out of curiosity, what do people here consider criteria for whether a composer and her/his work will last? I m not speaking about
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 27, 2003
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                        Interesting discussion here!

                        Out of curiosity, what do people here consider criteria for whether a
                        composer and her/his work will last? I'm not speaking about the merits
                        of their work but how can we judge whether their works have indeed
                        'lasted'?

                        Best,
                        Jason
                        --
                        Perfect Sound Forever
                        online music magazine with warped perspectives
                        http://www.perfectsoundforever.com
                      • Kraig Grady
                        i guess if your work is still performed and not all of your recordings are in the cutout bin :). i imagine a lot of great work is lost however. Personally i
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 30, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          i guess if your work is still performed and not all of your recordings are in
                          the cutout bin :).

                          i imagine a lot of great work is lost however. Personally i have a great love of
                          the organ music of Jehan Alain who was killed at 29 yet wrote some very
                          enjoyable/sometimes sinister organ music. this is my plug for someone who work
                          should last

                          Perfect Sound Forever wrote:

                          > Interesting discussion here!
                          >
                          > Out of curiosity, what do people here consider criteria for whether a
                          > composer and her/his work will last? I'm not speaking about the merits
                          > of their work but how can we judge whether their works have indeed
                          > 'lasted'?
                          >
                          > Best,
                          > Jason
                          > --
                          > Perfect Sound Forever
                          > online music magazine with warped perspectives
                          > http://www.perfectsoundforever.com
                          >
                          >

                          -- -Kraig Grady
                          North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
                          http://www.anaphoria.com
                          The Wandering Medicine Show
                          KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
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