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Re: Women & Music

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  • Anders Dahl
    ... I m sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all the time. I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don t have to
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 1, 1997
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      > I'm happy to look through my collection to see what I can share
      >with you... but I don't think I have to prove anything to you... You make
      >it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
      >is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
      >possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....
      >
      > Anna
      >
      I'm sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all
      the time.

      I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don't have to prove
      that. I only wanted to get tuned on to some new great music.

      A somewhat insulted Anders.
    • Anna Clare McDuff
      ... I d ... of ... they ve ... be ... I was referring more to the serious music scene being sexist than this list... One of the reasons I love music related
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
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        On Sun, 31 May 1998, Oeivind Idsoe wrote:

        > or
        > not it comes from male or female is, for me, not really relevant. Of course
        I'd
        > wish
        > more women were on the list, as they often represent a different position and
        > view
        > on things altogether, which is very refreshing, but why aren't they here? You
        > mention things being "extremely sexist" as one reason, which contradicts all
        of
        > my
        > mailing-list experiences during the last few years. I've been on lists where
        > women
        > are a definite minority, but this has never been "used against them" and
        they've
        > never been harassed in any way (at least not publically (some idiots can only
        be
        > "tough" in private, you know)).
        >


        I was referring more to the "serious" music scene being sexist
        than this list... One of the reasons I love music related mailing lists is
        that I can discuss music without getting all the crap that so often occurs
        in RL situations.... In my experience, a lot of women are put off the
        "serious" scene because they feel really unwelcome, but they love the
        music... So they wouldn't consider subscribing to this list, because
        they think it will just be the same old story....Sad, but thats the
        way it is...Thats the reason why I try to agitate for change! Its just
        *so* offputting going to "serious" shops sometimes I just don't bother....
        And I'm a fifth generation feminist and not exactly a shrinking violet (as
        you may have noticed! ;-)). Its a shame, because I love stuff on the Chain
        Reaction label (Monolake have been on my walkman often recently, and I
        find they make an excellent soundtrack for London Commuting! Fabulous
        stuff... I strongly reccommend their album "Hong Kong"... ambient
        recordings of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese cities morphed into sinous
        graceful techno... ), for example, and its often is hard to find in the
        Mainstream Alternative shops I feel more comfortable in... and yes, I do a
        lot of mail order as well! (much more than I should, considering I'm a
        perpetually broke PhD student;-))


        > > so why do they avoid the "serious" music scene?
        >
        > I have no idea. Perhaps, and with good reason!, they don't like the
        pretentious
        > attitude of "serious musicians" or "serious music listeners", and seldom feel
        > that
        > music is a question of life and death? Some men seem willing to die for their
        > convictions -- "if the rest of the world doesn't listen to Artist X something
        > really, really bad will happen" -- and I don't believe women are buying this.


        I often find pretentious musicians exceptionally hilarious and a
        bottomless source of amusement.... Anyone remember that F.S.O.L. Invisible
        Jukebox? *Still* has me in stitches....:-)


        > > I *well* remember the creep who tried to refuse to
        > > sell me the tuner I wanted on the grounds that it was grey, and therefore
        > > wouldn't colour co-ordinate with my other equipment... Mmmmmm.... I nearly
        > > bit his head off.
        >
        > But, hey, does one creep make us all creeps? I hope not! Some of us *are*
        nice,
        > you
        > know. Or at least trying to be.

        Yeah, I know.... Its just that these experiences do tend to
        rankle! I try not to be bitter, but after lots of nasty experiences you do
        tend to get a bit defensive, if you know what I mean... Since that awful
        afternoon ( I was really upset by that creep ) I've found a chain
        of retailers in the UK that has a policy of being non-patronising to
        women... they're called Richer Sounds, if anyone's interested, and I now
        buy all my hi-fi equipment there... Its *so* refreshing to walk into one
        of their shops and not be treated like a half wit! THey're very good value
        as well... *and* they do second hand stuff as well as new.... Worth
        looking out for!


        >
        > > And I bet you that if
        > > the techno-bods got over their deep fear of women (having two x
        > > chromosomes isn't contagious, you know...) you would start to see many
        > > more women happily fiddling with composition software....
        >
        > You are saying "...the techno bods...", and then "...you would start...", so I
        > guess
        > you are including me in your category of "women-hating/fearing" men, which
        just


        No I wasn't actually, though that sentence is rather ambiguous,
        sorry. The grammatically correct word in the phrase "you would start" is
        "ONE would start" but like most Brits, I hate using the pronoun ONE
        because it makes you/one sound like an inbred halfwitted aristocrat! One
        has no wish to do Prince Charles impersonations... Serious Techno Bods in
        general *do* have a serious problem with women getting into their music,
        I've noticed, but, of course there are always exceptions.... I'm glad to
        have met one! (<giggle> there's that word again, isn't the English
        Language awful!)


        > Because if things were *that* explicit, they probably wouldn't be so difficult
        > to
        > solve. Power operates in mysterious ways (like Foucault has shown), and
        perhaps
        > more
        > often on a micro-level rather than operating through a simple "No!".
        >
        > (How about those wonderful chaps, Deleuze&Guattari: "Woman: we all have to
        > become
        > that, whether we are male or female." (see pages 469-471 in A Thousand
        Plateaus
        > for
        > the specifics concerning women (and non-whites) and the "Apparatus Of Capture"
        > --
        > it's brilliant).


        I agree there are many subtlties in the interaction between
        genders, things are never black or white, but I also argue that there are
        many instances of unsubtle oppression. A century of campaigning in the
        West has meant that these are less common than they once were, but there
        are still plenty to go around! Things have improved for female
        musicians/composers... they now get merely ignored, which is a lot better
        than being forbidden to compose or having to put your works out under a
        man's name, but it still sucks....


        Anna
      • Anna Clare McDuff
        ... Well, I m sorry if you didn t mean to be insulting, but *I* was insulted when I wrote that email... I hate having to prove to people that women can do this
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
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          On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Anders Dahl wrote:

          > From: Anders Dahl <anders@...>
          >
          > > I'm happy to look through my collection to see what I can share
          > >with you... but I don't think I have to prove anything to you... You make
          > >it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
          > >is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
          > >possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....
          > >
          > > Anna
          > >
          > I'm sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all
          > the time.
          >
          > I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don't have to prove
          > that. I only wanted to get tuned on to some new great music.
          >
          > A somewhat insulted Anders.

          Well, I'm sorry if you didn't mean to be insulting, but *I* was
          insulted when I wrote that email... I hate having to prove to people that
          women can do this or that... you'd think it wouldn't be necessary any
          more, but it still is, sometimes, & it pisses me off! Its *unbelievably*
          depressing to have to fight the same battles my great great grandmother
          Maud had to fight... I'm working on another annotated list to share with
          you all, but it will probably take a week or more as I'm hideously busy at
          the mo'.... so much so that I may even be <gasp> off line for a while....


          Anna
        • Tom Ewing
          ... Rough Trade almost always have a wide range of CR stuff, as you doubtless know :). I second the Monolake recommendation, by the way - one of my favourite
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
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            Anna Clare McDuff wrote:
            >
            > you may have noticed! ;-)). Its a shame, because I love stuff on the Chain
            > Reaction label (Monolake have been on my walkman often recently, and I
            > find they make an excellent soundtrack for London Commuting! Fabulous
            > stuff... I strongly reccommend their album "Hong Kong"... ambient
            > recordings of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese cities morphed into sinous
            > graceful techno... ), for example, and its often is hard to find in the
            > Mainstream Alternative shops I feel more comfortable in... and yes, I do a
            > lot of mail order as well! (much more than I should, considering I'm a
            > perpetually broke PhD student;-))

            Rough Trade almost always have a wide range of CR stuff, as you doubtless
            know :). I second the Monolake recommendation, by the way - one of my
            favourite recent records, and probably the easiest way into the Chain
            Reaction aesthetic (are there any clubs where this stuff actually gets
            played loud?). I found the latest CD (Substance) a bit disappointing,
            though.

            My one facile contribution to the women and hi-fi shops debate: I find it
            very annoying how people in hi-fi shops assume you know exactly what
            you're after because you're a man. :) I know sweet f.a. about my hi-fi,
            and regard even the fact that it works with religious awe, so I wish
            hi-fi shop people would funnel some patronisation my way. Maybe drag.

            Thanks for the info re. improv, by the way. I work in london though don't
            live in it. I do know there's a kind of mini-festival going on at the
            moment, so when my paycheque comes through this month I'll investigate
            (Evan Parker is playing soon, and since he's a name I recognise, he might
            be a good place to start.)

            Cheers,
            Tom.
          • Mark Hadley
            Hello :) RE: the recent discussion about Women & Music. I ve just been talking to Phil Earle who runs Law & Auder records (see the latest Wire (172) : the
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 11, 1998
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              Hello :)

              RE: the recent discussion about Women & Music.

              I've just been talking to Phil Earle who runs Law & Auder records (see
              the latest Wire (172) : the subscription offer) And one of his up &
              coming CD comps is a Women Only Electronica Compilation, (he likes these
              themed things!), he's already got quite a lot a tracks but if you know
              of any female electronic artists that might be interested then you can
              drop him a line at:

              PEarle@...


              Bye,


              Mark.
              --

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * + * * * *

              Mark Hadley:mark.hadley@...
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              http://freespace.virgin.net/mark.hadley/mark/go.html
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