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  • Stevo
    ... ok -this has been bugging me for the last week -while I ve had no access to a computer note that i said elsewhere -another list where the band i had
    Message 1 of 32 , Sep 3, 2001
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      --- In thewire@y..., Jason Witherspoon <arzachel@s...> wrote:
      > At 7:15 PM +0000 8/27/01, Stevo wrote:
      > >-somebody elsewhere was talking about bands i had a very hard time
      > >believing had any connection to being part of this
      > >-like is a band playing rock from Germany - Krautrock ?
      > >is a band playing German prog -Krautrock or German prog?

      ok -this has been bugging me for the last week -while I've had
      no access to a computer
      note that i said 'elsewhere' -another list
      where the band i had difficulty with was the Scorpions
      -whose early work I'm not familiar with but whose 80s work is hair
      metal -if i was judging the Pink Floyd by their later material I'd
      have as much difficulty with connecting to them being very good

      > If it's psychedelic/"kosmiche" German rock/folk "prog" from the
      late
      > sixties to early , then I call it Krautrock.
      >
      > >
      > >to me -not by any standards an expert
      > > krautrock is a stripped down music based on repetition and
      > >minimalism and improvisation
      > >(-can may sound full sounded but the amount they stay on the same
      > >chord is talked about in most articles)
      >
      > I think that's an exceedingly narrow definition. It certainly
      rules
      > out Amon Düül II, who generally get bandied about as an A-lister.
      > And I don't really see it applying to Can either. _Tago Mago_
      > stripped down? Can't think of any one-chord Can songs at the
      moment
      > either....



      -this is where I realise that the definition I left is different to
      the one I thought I had - what's been going around in my head is
      stripped down -i.e -no major elaboration-what is not played is as
      important as what is.no weedly- weedly guitar solos etc-no
      showboating.
      compare any krautrock to what was around at the same time and what do
      you have?
      also -i thought i said used very few chords -which i didn't
      and was therefore wondering how you could know anything about the
      music -if you disagreed
      -I'll just give the description that I thought i had done -which is
      stripped down music using few chords based on repetition -actually i
      think it was a bit longer and i was going to amend it to add
      Spontaneity over complexity
      -I was wondering why you were saying it was a very limited
      description -now i got a clearer idea
      -because i think if used in its broadest sense that description is
      way too inclusive -thinking about having given the description i
      thought i had i listened through a whole lot of music -from my broad
      collection -most of which fit -if i ignored anything about germany
      things that didn't were -Motrhers Of Invention -absolutely Free
      because of its chord content
      Jimi hendrix -same
      gentle giant
      and Deep purple's Made In Japan - because they were too busy and
      spent too much time trying to impress-and from what i hear they were
      far from the most extreme -both are thought of as 'good prog'
      from what i understand
      actually a lot of the 2nd Asian Dub Foundation cd -despite the
      group's sound -because the samples gave too full a soundpicture
      -did think that saying 'good' and 'bad' prog were somewhat similar to
      Chris Morris talking about Aids.
      -the stereotype prog music is as complex as possible -slipping in as
      many special chords as possible -you know the type that your guitar
      tutor taught you though they were really just for specialists.
      -I believe that stripping down excess as much as possible is far
      better.
      I still don't think I've repeated the description i was waiting to
      see why you had a problem with -but I would have included both
      Television and early Grateful Dead inside of it -didn't use excess
      chord variety to express how clever it was -got rid of excess-no
      showboating -I'd say both of those just mentioned actually didn't add
      to show off -I sat listening to see how many chords weere used
      throughout last week -
      I'm not a musician so I don't know chords -i get some kind of
      synaesthetic reaction -colours or something.
      Listening to the Television Live Adventures bootleg -Marquee Moon had
      most players using 2 or 3 chords and keeping them going for most
      of the track -exception being mid solo where i don't think the count
      goes up that heavily
      Dark Star by Grateful Dead is a 4 chord(?) riff repeated to end -with
      the rest of the band reacting around it -you could basically sample
      the first usage and duplicate thereon -I don't think the rest of the
      band is using much more -its basically nuance.

      I'm trying to work out if Modal music as a whole stops working the
      more complex you make it. I read tthrough the section of the Miles
      Davis autobiography where he talks about getting pete Cosey in the
      band -he goes on about too many blended colours turning the paint
      brown-yuk(sorry paraphrase)
      Outside my Door off Can's first lp has the line -any colour is bad
      which i think was a central philosophical statement-as i go into
      further later.
      Davis also talks about very complex one chord music that he was
      making with the band -intricate drum beats /rhythms etc -but very
      little chord variation.
      I sat watching Enter The DRagon last night listening to the 2nd disc
      of Dark magus over and over because i thought i must be hearing too
      much chord variation -2or 3 per instrument per track.
      meant I missed Lalo Schiffrin's soundtrack which was a drag.
      Saw the 79 britflick Bloody Kids last night where they had an Ennio
      Morricone rip off -very little individual instrumental colour - i
      assume Morricone's the same only better.
      What about the Coltyrane Live iN japan My Favourite things -I don't
      think it was remotely about chords anymore.

      also Troutmask replica -very little chord variation -3 or 4 at the
      most per instrument per track -its all based on simple guitar lines
      deeply repeated -I rerad that Van Vliet had picked up on Reich -to
      the extent that that coming out to show them on Moonlight on Vermont
      was acvtually a quote from Reich's famous 65 track -where i always
      took it as mimicking a preacher
      http://www.furious.com/perfect/beefheart/troutmaskreplica3.html

      In Yeti by Amon Duul II I hear -continually evolving 4-chord
      primitive repetitive riffs -where does the guitar sound excessive -in
      fact where does anything sound excessive - i don't think stripped
      down goes too far from good description -unless its in comparison
      with the Ramones -which it certainly neever meant to be.
      and you don't think Faust are stripped down? -god what have you
      heard by them -the 2nd lp is based on 2 chord riffs and pounding drums
      -i guess i wasn't the first person to think of No Harm as a cubist
      take on Sister Ray -just came to me trippiong on strong coffe last
      week as i sat there listening to it.
      -the first is even sparser -can you describe to me every individual
      instrumental part and not call it stripped down.
      noodles -whereat?



      I was going to say that that you had a problem with the description
      probably meant you werre coming from the right place.
      The wrong place being -complexity for complexity's sake rules
      -if you don't understand that, you're stupid etc -which seems to be
      the prog rock apologist party line.
      I think from what else you say that isn't what you're talking about
      -I thought maybe you got shortsighted since you thought you got
      flamed.
      I think I said above that you didn't - I don't think those bands you
      mentioned disagree with my idea. stripped down music using few chords
      based on group improvisation -sorry i still can't get what i had
      earlier right -i knew i should have written it down.
      I think the Scorpions may be in or outside of it depending on what
      i've heard - Barrett Pink Floyd are inside -Velvet Underground
      inside, Stooges inside Black Sabbath inside -Zappa doesn't quite
      because hes too chordy but conforms to most of what i was thinking -
      especially sponmtraneity over complexity
      -Deep Purple -too weedly weedly

      -what i would exclude is -anything that thought adding to a sound
      making it more complex was an end in itself -and strings

      I was going to go into Flaming -or rather why i think its one of the
      lowest forms of abuse possible -again its down to showboating .
      The flamer thinks he is inherently superior to the flamee -which is
      normally a joke beghind which lies a supremely smug person -the kind
      who think that showing off shows you are intelligent.
      -normal stereotype first line flame -I'll run your low IQ ass ragged -
      for example -what this shows is a deeply confused level of pomposity.
      -um didn't the IQ test get rebuffed as being too white boy public
      school type-centric?
      -see any gathering of attention to your intelligence puts it in
      question.
      normally winds up with people thinking that the flamer has severe
      mental problems.
      also -showboating -this is a public list -are people really
      interested in flamer's inflated self opinion?
      Please note this is not adressed to the person the rest of this is
      addressed to -its actually about why i wouldn't come onto a list and
      start by flaming -which i assume Jim took it as.

      Is there some kind of tradition of flaming among prog rock fans?
      http://starling.rinet.ru/music/pink.htm
      which is a russian review site that centres on prog -the reviewer
      keeps going on about hoping not to be flamed.
      and most places where i've come across flaming being a hobyy have
      been from prog -rock fans
      -normal reason p-as said before -you don't like this exteremely
      overcomplex pompous music -you must be too stupid to understand it
      -I'll show off and call you stupid.
      -levels of lack of understanding of basic freudian maxims
      (shit =gold -in your dreams)

      I'm trying to think how much variation there is in Can - i had myself
      convinced i'd said how much that was played was the same rather than
      stayed on the same chord -again throughout tracks on Cannibalism 1
      (which yes -I stuck down as 2 by mistake)-each instrument plays a
      figure then repeats it several times -so you could sample it once and
      stick it down several times -you'd lose the nuance of quiet/loud
      dynamic ok but?
      http://www.furious.com/perfect/hysterie2.html
      and where are the band overcomplicated - i've said thjat i thought
      i'd said something a little different -but still not a million miles
      from the truth -i had myself wondering if you knerw the history of
      the band -2 minimalist compsers -a guitarist who makes Cheese Martin
      of the JBs look expansive and a drummer who wanted to be a machine -
      and subsequently plays endlessly minimally varied drum loops.
      -have you heard the one guitar solo the boxset book says Michael
      Karoli plays - i guess you have -thats based on repetition and makes
      most bands rhythm lines look expansive -middle of Mother Sky.
      You talk about me being miles out in terms of 1/2 of Tago Mago -
      which? I had the lp the best part of 10 years -though not recently
      since somebody nicked it and 600 other lps from me a few years back.
      is it my memory? -the tracks on Cannibalism wouldn't sufggest it
      neither would Colchester finale from the boxset -how long without
      chord change?
      nor would seeing Sofortkontakt back in 99 in Dublin -that ex members
      of Can show -where Jaki played with about half a kit -he's stopped
      using pedals -so no bass drum
      I read through the Can book that came with the boxset and things
      turned up -the idea of the band as group improvisation -
      which i think i mixed up with things said in the AMMusic 66 cd and
      read differently to what i remembered from the 97 WIRE interview
      -that you didn't want to showboat because it took away from the group
      dynamic - i was thinking earlier about this -and it actually seems
      more like to keep the tension/group dynamic going every player has to
      make some contribution -which everybody is fighting against as much
      as possible -playing as little as possible -this isn't the quote but
      is talking about the techinique
      and comes from here
      http://www.tegiba.com/teixi/musik/CanInterv_e.html
      "This is one thing, second is that we were a group which was making
      music by listening more to what others did than what oneself did, the
      idea was to create together by listening to what the other musicians
      did. So we wanted to record together directly on a 2 track machine
      without having all these possibilities to correct like later so that
      was it fitted into the spirit of the group: direct recording created
      direct feeling for this, you couldn't take it apart anymore. So
      actually the best music was that of CAN when the technological
      standard was "primitive". But at the time totally fitted to the
      spirit of the group because playing together and listening with all
      possible awareness to the process of making music by the rest of the
      members so putting all these together immediately into a stereo
      picture without any possibity later to correct it, gives you much
      more when you're in any moment responsible for the final result of
      what are playing because you couldn't correct the balance anymore.
      This is the balance between the people and any points of musical
      factors, psychological, spiritual that ever recorded, the mental
      balance so you were responsible for the mental balance between and
      that made the quality of these records than the so-called
      primitiveness -but doesn't fitting- of the instruments."

      i think that i'm alrerady writing more than you are really going to
      want to read -or i could try to find the AMMusic article -where
      Prevost goes on about how in free group improvisation not everything
      goes -if you showboat you disturb the communication

      > >
      > >prog is a bloated music based on showing off chops
      >
      > Yes, that's right, all prog is nothing but that. Sheesh.

      I'd wathch saying things like that -somebody might think you were
      trying to be superior
      >
      > >-that might be a stereotype -which is something i'm trying to work
      out
      >
      > Well, at least you realize you're stereotyping. So easy to pick on
      > "prog", usually w/good call for the reasons you mentioned.

      as i say above you dop look like you're coming from the right place

      Having
      > said that, I don't consider any of the bands I mentioned in the
      > Krautrock thread to be primarily "prog".

      I don't think i would either -you weren't the person i referred to.
      His site says that Guru Gurus 4th(?) lp is dead good and Tangerine
      DReam get better -from Phaedra


      Improv-oriented rock
      > w/tinges of jazz, folk, "world", what have you. It's certainly
      > progressive music w/o being Progressive music; the key difference
      > being that the latter is today perceived as being completely caught
      > up in own cleverness/technical adroitness.
      >
      > Still, open minded prog fans could readily claim Can or Faust,
      > certainly, as prog exemplars.
      I'd say way bette examplars than wghat is normally chosen
      -I'm currently listening to in the Land Of gRey and Pink by Caravan
      -which is still acceptable - i heard they got really overblown
      shortly afterward -wish there was less of the 2 guys voices +lyrics
      though
      -good prog(for which I'd rather not use the p word) King
      Crimson,Gentle Giant,Gong,Henry Cow, -I'm sure there are others -
      >
      > I'd even want to include heavy groove jazz-rock outfits like
      Wolfgang
      > Dauner, Volker Kriegel, & the MPS work of the Dave Pike Set as
      > Krautrock sympathizers. I tend towards inclusivity rather than
      > exclusivity, obviously. From Stevo's def. you'd have, let's see,
      > Neu, early Kraftwerk, maybe a small part of Can's work, & that's
      > about it. Faust certainly doesn't fit the narrow definition,

      you've heard the band then?

      right -so we've established this is based on a misunderstanding?
      you think that krautriock is maximalist?
      sorry -joking -but you think that Faust can't be described as
      mimimalist?
      -i was also thinking of what crossed over in terms ofinfluence -which
      is basically -minimalist funk -straightening out of lines -smooth
      curves -think Bowie -Low
      Fall -whole ouevre
      Joy Division
      Simple Minds (main reason they were ever any good)
      Wire -which is basically a very good summary of influences -discard
      extraneous waste-don't overimbellish etc

      I think that the description i gave above > krautrock is a stripped
      down music based on repetition and
      > >minimalism and improvisation
      is pretty close to what would strike most people as the recognisable
      krautrock sound
      i hope you're only thinking that it doesn't because you thought i was
      excluding what you said -doubt it-haven't heard most of them.
      but if you have a problem with my amended Can review -and where
      Holger plays more than a couple of notes in a bassline and Micheal
      plays more than a couple of chords -you'll have to show me
      -could you please listen to the music.i.e. earphones etc
      -makes me wonder exactly how familiar you are with the music to try
      to debunk things in this way?
      is saying that > >(-can may sound full sounded but the amount they
      stay on the same
      > >chord is talked about in most articles)(which it is )
      very far from the truth -and if so how far ? 2? 3?4? (chords)?

      I'll say it clearly -i came in here trying to stop myself from
      believing you're stupid - i think that i've succeeded -that maybe i
      was a little out but i don't think very far -why argue?
      >
      Stevo
    • ralph2391311@yahoo.com
      I ll be sending your email to the same abuse address. The one where you invite me down to the Bay Area for a fistfight. I was just responding to your
      Message 32 of 32 , Sep 5, 2001
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        I'll be sending your email to the same "abuse" address. The one
        where you invite me "down to the Bay Area" for a fistfight. I was
        just responding to your initial invitation.

        --- In thewire@y..., Jason Witherspoon <arzachel@s...> wrote:
        > At 09:52 AM 9/5/01 +0000, ralph2391311@y... wrote:
        > > It was a typo. Sorry. Of course you never make them. Thanks
        > >for "condescending" and letting me know how to spell it. Speaking
        of
        > >grammar, I think you need to learn how to read. How many times are
        > >you going to trot out that mis-quote? I never in any of my emails
        > >wrote what you keep quoting. And don't tell me your bringing up
        > >the "sad skinhead" was not a lame attempt at baiting me.
        >
        > No, it wasn't, you paranoid freak. It just happened to be one of
        the 3
        > Faust songs I know how to play on the guitar. Since it was the one
        that
        > had the most chords, it best proved my point. You know, the point
        I was
        > making in a conversation that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO W/YOU?
        >
        > I wasn't thinking about you in the least (this is a state I strive
        for
        > 24/7, incidentally). Do you really think I'd transcribe a whole
        song for
        > the list just to get your goat?
        >
        > >Fuck you and
        > >the cockhorse you rode in on. And furthermore, if you're
        threatening
        > >me, maybe I should "come down there" and knock your fucking teeth
        > >down your throat.
        >
        > This is ENOUGH of this shit. Moderators?
        >
        > I'm sending this to abuse@y... Just as I will w/the next phony
        > address you start skulking around under once they take this one
        away.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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