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Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?

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  • Rob Thornton
    ... don t have much of the Upsetter s oeuvre, but _Heart of the Congos_ is a mighty work indeed and well worth yr money. an ace Blood & Fire reissue! robt
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 2 6:30 PM
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      On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Jason Witherspoon wrote:

      > At 8:45 PM -0400 4/2/01, Jess Harvell wrote:
      > >There are moments of Scratch, however brief, which justify every accolade
      > >ever heaped upon him...dub's moment as hipster music of choice has passed
      > >though (like krautrock and tropicalia after it) and I think he'll assume his
      > >place in the pantheon, a little larger and a little less deserving, than his
      > >more modest peers...
      >
      > The Congas, _Heart of the Congas_. Possibly the finest jewel to come
      > from the Black Ark.

      don't have much of the Upsetter's oeuvre, but _Heart of the Congos_ is a
      mighty work indeed and well worth yr money. an ace Blood & Fire reissue!

      robt
    • Rob Thornton
      ... Just in case, folks, we re definitely talking about the Congos. The Congas are a late 70s Perry side project with Mongo Santamaria! (belated April Fools,
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 2 8:36 PM
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        On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Rob Thornton wrote:

        > On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Jason Witherspoon wrote:
        >
        > > At 8:45 PM -0400 4/2/01, Jess Harvell wrote:
        > > >There are moments of Scratch, however brief, which justify every accolade
        > > >ever heaped upon him...dub's moment as hipster music of choice has passed
        > > >though (like krautrock and tropicalia after it) and I think he'll assume his
        > > >place in the pantheon, a little larger and a little less deserving, than his
        > > >more modest peers...
        > >
        > > The Congas, _Heart of the Congas_. Possibly the finest jewel to come
        > > from the Black Ark.
        >
        > don't have much of the Upsetter's oeuvre, but _Heart of the Congos_ is a
        > mighty work indeed and well worth yr money. an ace Blood & Fire reissue!
        >

        Just in case, folks, we're definitely talking about the Congos. The Congas
        are a late '70s Perry side project with Mongo Santamaria! (belated April
        Fools, ok?)

        robt
      • Keith McColl
        also i dig secret laboratory from 1990 - his finest electronic reggae journey -= plus ace sleeve . its like william orbit producin lee perry - sounds shit in
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 3 1:09 AM
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          also i dig 'secret laboratory' from 1990 - his finest electronic reggae
          journey -= plus ace sleeve . its like william orbit producin lee perry -
          sounds shit in theory but many a post mondays blissful sunny 1990 daytime
          spent trippin checkin the perryoid

          ***sleep trickled down around me,and the happy tune dissolved away into my
          dreams ***
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Gary Atkins [SMTP:gatki@...]
          > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 9:34 PM
          > To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?
          >
          > Funny you mention Mr. Perry today, feeling cheerful and Springy today, I
          > drove in to town to the sounds of "Super Ape".
          >
          > The Arkology comp. is a great 'un...
          >
          > the only problem I have with it is that the "versions" often immediately
          > follow the actual songs, and not always being in the mood to hear three
          > consecutive arrangements of the same track in a row--I often use the
          > random
          > play.
          >
          > But for overall content, recording quality, and packaging--it's a gem.
          >
          > Gary
          >
          >
          > >From: "Coral Rumsey" <coral@...>
          > >Reply-To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: <thewire@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Subject: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?
          > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 20:48:29 +0100
          > >
          > >As someone looking to find out more about Scratch (knowing him primarily
          > by
          > >reputation) can anyone tell me if the 'Arkology' triple-discer
          > compilation
          > >is a good 'un?
          > >
          > >ta
          > >
          > >Simon Fay
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > >
          > >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
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          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
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        • Jason Witherspoon
          ... Whoops! (Why I always got B- s on my Spanish homework-- as , os , what s the diff??) -- Jason Witherspoon ICQ #62837760
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 3 1:17 AM
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            At 8:36 PM -0700 4/2/01, Rob Thornton wrote:
            >Just in case, folks, we're definitely talking about the Congos. The Congas
            >are a late '70s Perry side project with Mongo Santamaria! (belated April
            >Fools, ok?)
            >
            >robt

            Whoops! (Why I always got B-'s on my Spanish homework-- "as", "os",
            what's the diff??)

            --


            Jason Witherspoon
            ICQ #62837760

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          • Jan Miloszewski
            Perry s prolific output as artist and producer over a 35 year period is very patchy indeed - but his best stuff certainly justifies the hype and his influence
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 3 1:07 PM
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              Perry's prolific output as artist and producer over a 35 year period is very
              patchy indeed - but his best stuff certainly justifies the hype and his
              influence on other artists is incalculable. he was at his peak in the mid to
              late 70's though there's plenty of good records before then, but I'd be very
              wary of anything from the 80's onwards. "Arkology" has some great tracks on
              it but suffers from containing too much filler material. if you want to hear
              some more - out of the millions of albums available you could do a lot worse
              than these....

              Super ape
              (classic mainly instrumental/dub album from the mid 70's)
              Return of the super ape
              (excellent album from 1978, also reissued as "The original super ape" with
              extra tracks)
              The Congos - Heart of the Congos
              (his best album as a producer, superbly reissued/repackaged by Blood & Fire)
              Revolution dub
              (there's a huge number of mostly very average Lee Perry dub albums on the
              market but this is a good one and is available at budget price on various
              labels)
              Voodooism
              (good compilation album on Pressure Sounds)

              rgs

              jklm
              co sie polepszy to sie popiepszy


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gary Atkins <gatki@...>
              To: <thewire@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 9:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?


              > Funny you mention Mr. Perry today, feeling cheerful and Springy today, I
              > drove in to town to the sounds of "Super Ape".
              >
              > The Arkology comp. is a great 'un...
              >
              > the only problem I have with it is that the "versions" often immediately
              > follow the actual songs, and not always being in the mood to hear three
              > consecutive arrangements of the same track in a row--I often use the
              random
              > play.
              >
              > But for overall content, recording quality, and packaging--it's a gem.
              >
              > Gary
              >
              >
              > >From: "Coral Rumsey" <coral@...>
              > >Reply-To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: <thewire@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Subject: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?
              > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 20:48:29 +0100
              > >
              > >As someone looking to find out more about Scratch (knowing him primarily
              by
              > >reputation) can anyone tell me if the 'Arkology' triple-discer
              compilation
              > >is a good 'un?
              > >
              > >ta
              > >
              > >Simon Fay
            • R. Lim
              ... Agreed, though his more song-focused production work stands up pretty well from a consistency perspective. E.g. the 70s Upsetters singles (several 2CD
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 4 3:50 PM
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                On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Jess Harvell wrote:

                > Scratch can be exceedingly spotty, even at his Black Ark peak, and has left

                Agreed, though his more song-focused production work stands up pretty well
                from a consistency perspective. E.g. the 70s Upsetters singles (several
                2CD volumes in a handsomely bound book package) and earlier rude boy
                material (compiled on various CDs, my favorite of which is Chicken Scratch
                on Heartbeat- actually the Wailers but released under Perry's name). It's
                not 100% dub, but it is 100% great- I never really understood how someone
                could listen only to dub and neglect all of the other fine offerings from
                Jamaica.

                Dubwise, I'll second the recommendation for Voodoism and also put in my
                vote for Blackboard Jungle Dub, whose title track (version 1) is one of
                the finest examples of dub murk around. A friend once remarked that she
                likes that album because it doesn't really sound like anything else she's
                ever heard and I agree. It's been reissued as part of the 2fer CD Scratch
                Attack, on Ras.

                -rob
              • jamello@aol.com
                In a message dated 01-04-02 17:47:18 EDT, you write:
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 4 4:26 PM
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                  In a message dated 01-04-02 17:47:18 EDT, you write:

                  <<
                  P.S. To have said something useful in this post: could anyone comment on
                  releases by the label Bad Vugum? Are any essential listening? I've heard
                  some good things about Circle, but nothing else. Looks enigmatic.
                  >>

                  There are at least a half dozen wonderful Circle CDs, check the online
                  catalog at Aquarius Records for details. Haven't heard anything else on the
                  label, I believe they release stuff long ago (probably out of print) from
                  pre-Sahko Jimi Tenor's early band.
                • R. Lim
                  ... Oh yeah- the album is out of print (recorded under the name Jimi Tenor and His Shamans), but there s a couple of exclusive tracks on the in-print
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 4 4:31 PM
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                    On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 jamello@... wrote:

                    > catalog at Aquarius Records for details. Haven't heard anything else on the
                    > label, I believe they release stuff long ago (probably out of print) from
                    > pre-Sahko Jimi Tenor's early band.

                    Oh yeah- the album is out of print (recorded under the name Jimi Tenor and
                    His Shamans), but there's a couple of exclusive tracks on the in-print
                    compilation "Surprising Encounters." I haven't heard any of it, but I
                    just wanted to mention that the Dr. Gunni 7" with Doktor Motterfokker (or
                    whatever) is pretty sweet- it's also on a 7" on the pre-606 Vinyl
                    Communications which was a "sampler" of the two Bad Vugum singles.

                    -rob

                    ps- Heart of the Congos is an amazing album
                  • Kristopher S. Handley
                    ... I m having a bit of trouble finding this; what s it called, how available is it, what label, etc.? Thanks, ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 5 9:10 AM
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                      >From: "R. Lim" <r-lim-1@...>
                      >E.g. the 70s Upsetters singles (several
                      >2CD volumes in a handsomely bound book package)

                      I'm having a bit of trouble finding this; what's it called, how available is
                      it, what label, etc.?

                      Thanks,

                      ---s
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                    • Jess Harvell
                      ... Agreed, of course, so let s get into the one area which no self-conscious Wire hipster seems to talk about...modern Jamaican dancehall... I ve really
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 5 2:40 PM
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                        >I never really understood how someone
                        >could listen only to dub and neglect all of the other fine offerings from
                        >Jamaica.

                        Agreed, of course, so let's get into the one area which no self-conscious
                        Wire hipster seems to talk about...modern Jamaican dancehall... I've really
                        gotten into this stuff over the last couple of years...mostly through
                        compilations like Greensleeves "Best Ragga Dancehall Of [Insert Year
                        Here]"... Aside from the obligatory gat popping and ho slappin, I'm amazed
                        at how completely funked up the rhythms are... Beenie Man's "Moses Cry" is
                        like '91 Belg-core techno slowed down to 1/3 the speed... There's an
                        Elephant Man track that's basically hard acid...wouldn't sound completely
                        out of place in a Richie Hawtin set... Even at their worst, the rest have a
                        similar skittery, fitful energy as the best Swiz Beats or Timbaland track...
                        Am I alone here in my facinated flirtation with this stuff??

                        -Sprout
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                      • Ryan Whitehead
                        ... not at all. beyond roots and dub most people have no concept of the depth of jamaican music . . . even the fact that all jamaican music is referred to as
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 5 4:17 PM
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                          >Am I alone here in my facinated flirtation with this stuff??

                          not at all. beyond roots and dub most people have no concept of the depth of
                          jamaican music . . . even the fact that all jamaican music is referred to as
                          "reggae" when, one could argue, the true "reggae" period was built up
                          to--from mento, to ska, to rocksteady, through the rebel period, to early
                          reggae, and true reggae--and then moved beyond--through dub, deejays,
                          dancehall, ragga, conscious ragga, etc.

                          a continuation of this can be seen in the fact that those viewed as the
                          paragons of jamaican music in the world at large--bob marley and lee
                          perry--were actually unique figures standing, in many ways, outside of
                          jamaican musics more dominant threads of sound systems, dancehalls,
                          prominent producers, etc. this is particularly true of Marley . . . But
                          that's a result of what i call the marlification of reggae (i've probably
                          exposed this theory on list before)--"everyone" thinks Marley is synonymous
                          with reggae, they hear reggae and ask if it's marley even if it sounds
                          nothing like marley.

                          with that brief rant out of the way, i'd like to point to a couple of
                          producers around the legendary time of Perry that are equally worthy of
                          investigation: Niney the Observer and Keith Hudson. Niney's Blood and Fire
                          collection is unstopable, as are Keith Hudson's Pick A Dub and Studio Kinda
                          Cloudy. I hear his Flesh of My Flesh is a frightful murk--in a good
                          way--but i've yet to find a copy. A couple song oriented lee perry
                          production to augment the recommendation of the Congoes--a pause for the
                          congoes to stress that this is one of the greatest pieces of jamaican music
                          ever recorded, particularly the two disc reissue of Blood and Fire--are the
                          Junior Byles collections Curly Locks and Beat Down Babylon, and the Max
                          Romeo discs Open the Iron Gate and War Inna Babylon.

                          But this started on the ragga front. In a perverse way, the interest to
                          wire-ites makes sense: check the Ambush records releases (particularly the
                          comp Mash Up The Place, a reference to the dancehalls), anything by DJ Scud
                          (the 7" on Machinebau, "total desctruction"), and the fantastic 7"s on Scuds
                          Jah Vengeance label (Bloodclaat Gangsta Youth's--aka Dj Scud--"Kill Or Be
                          Killed" and Jah Vengeance's--aka I-Sound--"No Light"). All fuse noizecore
                          with wicked ragga sounds. Pull out the recommendations for wicked ragga . .
                          . I don't think I'm the only one that's interested.


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                        • Jason Witherspoon
                          ... What s the Niney Blood & Fire collection called? I can t find any info on their seemingly-otherwise-up-to-date website-- Completely agreed on the _Pick a
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 5 4:34 PM
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                            At 4:17 PM -0700 4/5/01, Ryan Whitehead wrote:
                            >Niney's Blood and Fire
                            >collection is unstopable, as are Keith Hudson's Pick A Dub and Studio Kinda
                            >Cloudy.

                            What's the Niney Blood & Fire collection called? I can't find any
                            info on their seemingly-otherwise-up-to-date website--

                            Completely agreed on the _Pick a Dub_-- great great album. I've also
                            been very heavily into the Chantells & Friends _Children of Jah_ B&F
                            comp; it's basically a comp of Roy Francis' tiny but excellent Phase
                            One label from '77-'79. The best stuff on here reminds me much of
                            the Congos, & there's a smattering of neato moogy action which makes
                            it all the more excellent, though the meat of the matter is the
                            wonderful songs.

                            --


                            Jason Witherspoon
                            ICQ #62837760

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                          • Ryan Whitehead
                            Oops-- couple errors. I too misspelled Congos . . . and Dj Scud s label is Full Watts, not Jah Vengeance. As I said, Jah Vengeance is a nome-de-stylus of
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 5 6:44 PM
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                              Oops--

                              couple errors. I too misspelled "Congos" . . . and Dj Scud's label is Full
                              Watts, not Jah Vengeance. As I said, Jah Vengeance is a nome-de-stylus of
                              I-Sound . . . Just the lunacy of a late night at work.

                              The Niney album is actually titled "Blood And Fire: Niney and Friends". It's
                              on Trojan. Sorry for the misleading comment . . . There's just so damned
                              much blood and fire and jah swirling around when one speaks of jamaican
                              sounds that it's hard to keep it all straight.

                              ryan


                              >From: Jason Witherspoon <arzachel@...>
                              >Reply-To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?
                              >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:34:57 -0700
                              >
                              >At 4:17 PM -0700 4/5/01, Ryan Whitehead wrote:
                              > >Niney's Blood and Fire
                              > >collection is unstopable, as are Keith Hudson's Pick A Dub and Studio
                              >Kinda
                              > >Cloudy.
                              >
                              >What's the Niney Blood & Fire collection called? I can't find any
                              >info on their seemingly-otherwise-up-to-date website--
                              >
                              >Completely agreed on the _Pick a Dub_-- great great album. I've also
                              >been very heavily into the Chantells & Friends _Children of Jah_ B&F
                              >comp; it's basically a comp of Roy Francis' tiny but excellent Phase
                              >One label from '77-'79. The best stuff on here reminds me much of
                              >the Congos, & there's a smattering of neato moogy action which makes
                              >it all the more excellent, though the meat of the matter is the
                              >wonderful songs.
                              >
                              >--
                              >
                              >
                              > Jason Witherspoon
                              > ICQ #62837760
                              >
                              > ---------
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                              > ----O----
                              > ---------

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                            • jamello@aol.com
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 6 6:09 AM
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                                < not at all. beyond roots and dub most people have no concept of the depth of jamaican music . . . even the fact that all jamaican music is referred to as
                                "reggae" when, one could argue, the true "reggae" period was built up to--from mento, to ska, to rocksteady, through the rebel period, to early
                                reggae, and true reggae--and then moved beyond--through dub, deejays, dancehall, ragga, conscious ragga, etc. >

                                Exactly the point I was going to make. I have the kind folks at Soul Jazz for opening my eyes, the four "Dynamite" comps have literally no dub tracks and clued me in to some wonderful examples of various "reggae" styles. Hell, I even went out and bought a Prince Buster compilation recently!

                                RE: dancehall, Simon Reynolds' web page has a "faves of 2000" article with an entire section devoted to the genre. He too points out how the riddims are wack, merging elements of techno and hiphop (The Elephant Man CD even concludes with a take on a DMX track.)

                                Of course, you still have to get over the playa/gangsta lyrics on some tracks, but overall a fun spin.
                              • JacobM
                                when the subject turns to ragga it always seems to end with someone mentioning Dj scud/ambush i d love to hear of any genuine ragga records that feature harder
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 6 7:12 AM
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                                  when the subject turns to ragga it always seems to end with someone
                                  mentioning Dj scud/ambush

                                  i'd love to hear of any genuine ragga records that feature harder than hard
                                  sounds..
                                  bashment records, bass saturated Dj mix tapes, etc..
                                  one to look out for..
                                  elephant man- cd killa-- voice processing cd skipping effects..

                                  any other sugestions?

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Jess Harvell [mailto:dubplatestyle@...]
                                  Sent: 05 April 2001 22:41
                                  To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?


                                  >I never really understood how someone
                                  >could listen only to dub and neglect all of the other fine offerings from
                                  >Jamaica.

                                  Agreed, of course, so let's get into the one area which no self-conscious
                                  Wire hipster seems to talk about...modern Jamaican dancehall... I've really
                                  gotten into this stuff over the last couple of years...mostly through
                                  compilations like Greensleeves "Best Ragga Dancehall Of [Insert Year
                                  Here]"... Aside from the obligatory gat popping and ho slappin, I'm amazed
                                  at how completely funked up the rhythms are... Beenie Man's "Moses Cry" is
                                  like '91 Belg-core techno slowed down to 1/3 the speed... There's an
                                  Elephant Man track that's basically hard acid...wouldn't sound completely
                                  out of place in a Richie Hawtin set... Even at their worst, the rest have a
                                  similar skittery, fitful energy as the best Swiz Beats or Timbaland track...
                                  Am I alone here in my facinated flirtation with this stuff??

                                  -Sprout
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                                • R. Lim
                                  ... The Complete Upsetter Singles Collection, vols 1-3 (a fourth is due next month- I haven t had a chance to hear the third one yet). They re on Trojan, so
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 6 10:44 AM
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                                    On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Kristopher S. Handley wrote:

                                    > >From: "R. Lim" <r-lim-1@...>
                                    > >E.g. the 70s Upsetters singles (several
                                    > >2CD volumes in a handsomely bound book package)
                                    >
                                    > I'm having a bit of trouble finding this; what's it called, how available is
                                    > it, what label, etc.?

                                    The Complete Upsetter Singles Collection, vols 1-3 (a fourth is due next
                                    month- I haven't had a chance to hear the third one yet). They're on
                                    Trojan, so they should run you about $30/each.

                                    -rob
                                  • Ryan Whitehead
                                    Oh, correction: this has not ended up with someone mentioning DJ Scud, but begun with someone mentioning DJ Scud. I m not sure if this is saying everyone
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 6 11:06 AM
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                                      Oh, correction: this has not ended up with someone mentioning DJ Scud, but
                                      begun with someone mentioning DJ Scud. I'm not sure if this is saying
                                      "everyone knows this stuff . . . don't mention it" or "it's crap . . . don't
                                      mention it" or just "hey, look, you mentioned it". Anyway, I think that the
                                      releases I mentioned are excellent and there aren't many other people
                                      currently integrating ragga into adventurous music--please correct me if i'm
                                      wrong. Sure, in the days of old, jungle and the bristol stuff took up
                                      dancehall/ragga and ran it well into their chosen genre's burst seams. But
                                      today it's mostly 2 Step Garage which, though a guilty pleasure of mine, is
                                      VERY conservative--morally, philosophically, musically, etc.

                                      When diving into "true" ragga, I often feel like i've just missed that
                                      energy that overwhelms the best Ambush/full watts/noizecore ragga tracks.
                                      some older stuff that's not as fried as we're looking for, but excellent
                                      nonetheless: Bounty Killer's "My Xperience", Ninja Man's "Bounty Hunter",
                                      the "Hardcore Ragga" compilation, and maybe the "Ragga Essentials: In A
                                      Dancehall Style" compilation. Though uniformly excellent, most of these are
                                      less packed with insanity than I want. I have the impression that the truly
                                      wild stuff is hidden throughout the mass production of tracks, the broken
                                      down wax factories of jamaican ghettos--am I off the mark here?

                                      Though someone already mentioned it, Simon Reynold's site does point to many
                                      promising sounding compilations. I've got the "Dancehall 101" compilations
                                      on VP, packed with good tracks and the occassional cage rattling rhythm, and
                                      several of the "Strictly The Best" compilations, which follow the same
                                      unpredictable good/great pattern. I used to be turned off by these
                                      compilations because the covers are so incredibly tacky . . . don't let that
                                      discourage. The Rough Guide to reggae also has chapters on Ragga and
                                      Dancehall that pull out the historical inflection points.

                                      rw out*

                                      >when the subject turns to ragga it always seems to end with someone
                                      >mentioning Dj scud/ambush
                                      >
                                      >i'd love to hear of any genuine ragga records that feature harder than hard
                                      >sounds..
                                      > bashment records, bass saturated Dj mix tapes, etc..
                                      >one to look out for..
                                      >elephant man- cd killa-- voice processing cd skipping effects..
                                      >
                                      >any other sugestions?
                                      >
                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                      >From: Jess Harvell [mailto:dubplatestyle@...]
                                      >Sent: 05 April 2001 22:41
                                      >To: thewire@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [thewire] Lee Perry - a Jamaican Holger Czukay?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >I never really understood how someone
                                      > >could listen only to dub and neglect all of the other fine offerings from
                                      > >Jamaica.
                                      >
                                      >Agreed, of course, so let's get into the one area which no self-conscious
                                      >Wire hipster seems to talk about...modern Jamaican dancehall... I've
                                      >really
                                      >gotten into this stuff over the last couple of years...mostly through
                                      >compilations like Greensleeves "Best Ragga Dancehall Of [Insert Year
                                      >Here]"... Aside from the obligatory gat popping and ho slappin, I'm amazed
                                      >at how completely funked up the rhythms are... Beenie Man's "Moses Cry" is
                                      >like '91 Belg-core techno slowed down to 1/3 the speed... There's an
                                      >Elephant Man track that's basically hard acid...wouldn't sound completely
                                      >out of place in a Richie Hawtin set... Even at their worst, the rest have
                                      >a
                                      >similar skittery, fitful energy as the best Swiz Beats or Timbaland
                                      >track...
                                      >Am I alone here in my facinated flirtation with this stuff??
                                      >
                                      >-Sprout
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                                    • Jess Harvell
                                      ... No, I think you re bang on...that was kinda what I was trying to say when I started (this end) of the thread...(I guess in the vain hopes that there would
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 7 5:16 AM
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                                        >I have the impression that the truly
                                        >wild stuff is hidden throughout the mass production of tracks, the broken
                                        >down wax factories of jamaican ghettos--am I off the mark here?

                                        No, I think you're bang on...that was kinda what I was trying to say when I
                                        started (this end) of the thread...(I guess in the vain hopes that there
                                        would be someone here that was inordinantly expertised in the genre)...I
                                        think to find the truly out there one offs you have to be "living the life,"
                                        i.e. scouring dingy record stores wallpapered with little 7" singles...it's
                                        like any subculture, throw a newbie into the mix and he's not gonna be able
                                        to distinguish DJ Hype from Aquasky, Napalm Death from Stryper...except by
                                        listening, exploring, yadda, yadda...also, I think we're missing a lot of
                                        the impact of these songs listening to them on the frictionless digital
                                        surface of a CD...namely: the bass intensive club sound system, the crowd,
                                        the drugs, the mix (such as it is...there ain't a lot of seamless/banal
                                        Oakentroll trance mixing goin on in the dancehall), basically the vibe...

                                        >I used to be turned off by these
                                        >compilations because the covers are so incredibly tacky . . . don't let
                                        >that
                                        >discourage.

                                        I use to feel the same way...but a decade of house & jungle comps (is it de
                                        rigeur for these things to have uniformly awful covers?) and hardcore rap
                                        (alla those post-No Limit glittering, fisheyed letters..) - not to mention
                                        all the metal I listen to as a teen - cured me of that...sometimes you just
                                        gotta swallow your taste and your pride...;)

                                        -Sprout

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                                      • trommer
                                        a side note... ...jamaica isn t the only source for dancehall, ragga, etc.... toronto has the largest concentration of jamaicans outside of kingston, and has
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 7 6:12 AM
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                                          a side note...
                                          ...jamaica isn't the only source for dancehall, ragga, etc....
                                          toronto has the largest concentration of jamaicans outside of kingston,
                                          and has always quite a thriving scene with many small labels, vinyl
                                          cutters, a shit-load of little mom & pop hole-in-the-wall record stores
                                          (on eglinton ave: the black uhuru song 'youth of eglinton' is about the
                                          neighbourhood and michael rose has since relocated there)
                                          when d&b was in its infancy (when it was still popularily known as
                                          'jungle') there was alot of wicked hard raw ragga-jungle coming out of
                                          that scene...the whole dancehall scene is still very active here as
                                          well...

                                          worth checking out.
                                        • ZURAW,BRYAN LAWRENCE
                                          ... i think yr right about this and it goes even further. it s been a long time since i went to dances (in montreal, and not all that much) but it was an
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 7 10:24 AM
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                                            > surface of a CD...namely: the bass intensive club sound system, the crowd,
                                            > the drugs, the mix (such as it is...there ain't a lot of seamless/banal
                                            > Oakentroll trance mixing goin on in the dancehall), basically the vibe...
                                            >
                                            i think yr right about this and it goes even further. it's been a long
                                            time since i went to dances (in montreal, and not all that much) but
                                            it was an ear-opening experience. the records are like dj tools - they're
                                            mixed with a live DJ (ie MC) and soemtimes a live singer too and cut in
                                            with lots of dubplates etc... i've never heard any dj scud/ambush stuff yr
                                            discussing, but the dancehall performance of a good sound seems
                                            to approach that density. if you can find good reggae radio shows -
                                            you also get a taste of this experience. i find this is the case with
                                            club oriented scenes generally - the records as is only give part of
                                            the flavour of the aural experience in the club, even discounting the
                                            lights, dancers and drugs and the pa.

                                            bryan

                                            ps. i live in la, and if anyone knows of such a radio show out here,
                                            please inform.
                                          • Jason Witherspoon
                                            ... I dunno-- a comp like _Family Planning_ really points to an outer edge for the whole 2 Step vibe-- or is that comp more shiki shiki ? -- Jason Witherspoon
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Apr 7 12:17 PM
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                                              At 11:06 AM -0700 4/6/01, Ryan Whitehead wrote:
                                              >But
                                              >today it's mostly 2 Step Garage which, though a guilty pleasure of mine, is
                                              >VERY conservative--morally, philosophically, musically, etc.

                                              I dunno-- a comp like _Family Planning_ really points to an outer
                                              edge for the whole 2 Step vibe-- or is that comp more "shiki shiki"?

                                              --


                                              Jason Witherspoon
                                              ICQ #62837760

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                                            • Jess Harvell
                                              ... Yeah...which is why most of these musics have yet to dent the American pop scene...rock crits are too blindered by devotion to the album format, deriving
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Apr 7 3:04 PM
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                                                >i find this is the case with
                                                >club oriented scenes generally - the records as is only give part of
                                                >the flavour of the aural experience in the club, even discounting the
                                                >lights, dancers and drugs and the pa.
                                                >
                                                Yeah...which is why most of these musics have yet to dent the American pop
                                                scene...rock crits are too blindered by devotion to the album format,
                                                deriving "meaning" from music in the standard, approved, literary way...and
                                                many tracks which can sound amazing "en mix" sound pitiable heard in
                                                isolation...so much of my favorite jungle (of the jump-up/hardstep variety)
                                                sounds thin and smallish as tracks...a sing songy bassline and a million
                                                Amen variations...dancehall even goes one step further...all those hundreds
                                                of tracks with a simple variation on the same riddim, like
                                                "doorslam"...dancehall radio shows in the US, at least the ones I've heard
                                                on NYC's Hot 97 and Philly's Power 99, tend to sound more like a pirate or a
                                                live mix: rowdy, party in studio vibe, if not "mixing" per se...certainly
                                                more energy than yer average MOR station...I think all music...the further
                                                it moves away from its "intended" (the club, the concert hall, the tightly
                                                focused pair of headphones) loses something, either in sound or vibe or
                                                both...and home listening of any sort is usually an approximation...

                                                -sprout

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                                              • Ed Lynch-Bell
                                                Speaking of Lee Perry. Has anyone written a good bio on him? Ed -- Ed Lynch-Bell mailto:dali@zerointegrity.co.uk http://www.zerointegrity.co.uk/ ICQ:100711886
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Apr 9 12:22 AM
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                                                  Speaking of Lee Perry. Has anyone written a good bio on him?

                                                  Ed
                                                  --
                                                  Ed Lynch-Bell
                                                  mailto:dali@...
                                                  http://www.zerointegrity.co.uk/
                                                  ICQ:100711886
                                                  tel:(+39) 0348 855 8586
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