Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Women & Music

Expand Messages
  • Anders Dahl
    ... It would be helpful with a short description with the musicians, so one can know what to check out first :-) Or better yet, you take your last Maxell
    Message 1 of 13 , May 29, 1997
    • 0 Attachment
      > I'm going to have a trawl through my collection when I get home
      >and come up with some reccomendations for you all... (right now I'm at
      >college & I'm supposed to be pretending to do some psychological
      >research...:-)) But just off the top of my head, in no particular
      >order.....

      It would be helpful with a short description with the musicians, so one can
      know what to check out first :-) Or better yet, you take your last Maxell
      XLII-S100 and compile the ultimate female aac/m collection and I'll trade
      you. I'm not trying to make this mailinglist a pirate music trading list!
      If these musicians is as good as Anna claims the trade will commersially
      benefit the creators as a secondary effect.

      >Becker gives readings from the brothers Grimm, and
      >interprets traditional German folk music and the songs of Brecht, Weill,
      >Einsturzende Neubauten and Brahms

      ...Ironically only male composers... sorry ... didn't mean to....forget that.


      anders.
    • Anders Dahl
      ... I m sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all the time. I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don t have to
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 1997
      • 0 Attachment
        > I'm happy to look through my collection to see what I can share
        >with you... but I don't think I have to prove anything to you... You make
        >it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
        >is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
        >possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....
        >
        > Anna
        >
        I'm sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all
        the time.

        I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don't have to prove
        that. I only wanted to get tuned on to some new great music.

        A somewhat insulted Anders.
      • Anna Clare McDuff
        ... The amazing thing is that there *is*..... unbelievable, I know, when you consider how little notice they get, but there you go... I think there s also a
        Message 3 of 13 , May 29, 1998
        • 0 Attachment
          On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anders Dahl wrote:
          >
          > I mean counting how large share of earths population is male "alternative
          > alternative composers/musicians". There cannot possibly be a major share of
          > female ones.

          The amazing thing is that there *is*..... unbelievable, I know,
          when you consider how little notice they get, but there you go... I think
          there's also a problem in that when women *do* get noticed, they're taken
          to be not-as-serious as their male counterparts....

          Its like if you read in the archives of the 30's and 40's music
          press, and see how they treated Black musicians then.... THe music press
          of the time refused to take Black musicians seriously as a creative force,
          and portrayed them as being only capable of light entertainment... No one
          today could make such an argument, because with increased coverage of
          different music made by Black musicians the music press is coming to
          realise that Black musicians are just as capable of innovation & diversity
          & sheer stunning beauty and passion as their White colleagues.....Black
          music has always been fabulously rich, but its only recently that the
          White-dominated music press has put their prejudices aside to see
          this....

          I think there are some pretty obvious parallels with the treatment
          of women composers & musicians in the music press today.... Music made by
          women is taken to be a pale shadow of that made by men, or as light
          entertainment....

          I have to admit I only have one female aac/m (alternative
          > alternative composers/musicians) in my record collection, Pauline
          > Olivieros. Probably due to underexposure. But I'm just as curious as Paul
          > Gough.

          I'm going to have a trawl through my collection when I get home
          and come up with some reccomendations for you all... (right now I'm at
          college & I'm supposed to be pretending to do some psychological
          research...:-)) But just off the top of my head, in no particular
          order.....


          Maggie Nichols
          Sylvia Hallett
          Sue Ferrar
          Gloria Coates
          Miranda Sex Garden (+ solo)
          Julia Wolfe
          Sheila Chandra
          Diamanda Galas
          Natacha Atlas
          Lisa Gerrard
          Meret Becker
          Gudrun Gut/ Miasma (GG + Myra Davies)
          Anita Lane
          Jane Siberry
          Laurie Anderson


          Ohhhhhh..... I could go on and on... I will post more later....
          but before I go, I must first tell you all to go and do *whatever* you
          have to to get hold of the sheer genius that is Meret Becker's
          Noctambule... (its on the EGO label). It was released in 1996 and I've
          been trying to get hold of it since then, but what with one thing and
          another I only got my mits on it last week....Becker is best known as an
          actress, but she is a very talented musician as well... Noctambule was
          recorded live in Germany, and I really don't know where to start in
          describing it to you... Becker gives readings from the brothers Grimm, and
          interprets traditional German folk music and the songs of Brecht, Weill,
          Einsturzende Neubauten and Brahms. She sings and plays accordion, kazoo,
          and what roughly translates as "singing saw"... other instruments include
          the Barrel Organ, Glockenespiel, Wooden Bells... THe amazing thing is that
          the diverse instrumentation doesn't intrude at all, it all fits in
          perfectly to make a beautiful whole, even the kazoo sounds just right...
          Noctambule has that beguiling clarity and sepia-toned sweetness of a
          autumnal afternoon. It sounds effortlessly magical, though I shudder to
          think how much rehearsal must have gone in to creating something so
          seamless! Its quite an expensive album to own, because everyone
          I've played it to has begged me to tape it for them on the spot, and I'm
          almost down to my last Maxell XLII-S100...:-(

          Anna
        • Anna Clare McDuff
          ... As Per Anders s request..... ... These three are all exponents of British Improv....they gig more than they record, and I bet you ll never find their CDs
          Message 4 of 13 , May 29, 1998
          • 0 Attachment
            >

            As Per Anders's request.....



            >
            > Maggie Nichols
            > Sylvia Hallett
            > Sue Ferrar

            These three are all exponents of British Improv....they gig more
            than they record, and I bet you'll never find their CDs in Sweden, so not
            much point in listing them really, but if you're ever at an Improv
            Festival you might be lucky enough to hear them........

            > Gloria Coates

            A composer... as I type I have her Symphony # 4, Chiaroscuro
            (1984/1990) on my walkman, and utterly stunning it is, too...

            > Miranda Sex Garden (+ solo)

            Have done various things, mainly in the field of early music...
            best known for their albums of madrigals...

            > Julia Wolfe

            Another composer... Amazing use of dissonance! I was listening to
            Steam, just a few minutes ago... *very* good....

            > Sheila Chandra
            > Diamanda Galas

            Two incomparible experimental vocalists....Galas is coming from an
            operatic tradition (trained with Xenakis amongst others) and Chandra from
            a traditional Asian perspective (remember Monsoon and Indipop?) for Galas,
            start with Plague Mass, for Chandra, I'd reccommend either ABoneCroneDrone
            or the Zen Kiss as starting points....

            > Natacha Atlas

            We were talking about her earlier... Belgian Arabic Jewish British
            vocalist and bellydancer....has worked with transglobal uNderground and
            the Invaders of the Heart amongst others... get "Diaspora" for the
            achingly lovely "Duden"

            > Lisa Gerrard
            >
            Vocalist.... works/worked with Dead Can Dance... (are they
            still going?) medaeval influences... get the Mirror Pool, or some DCD
            albums....she has a new one out, but I've not heard it yet....

            Meret Becker

            I told you about her...a goddesss!

            > Gudrun Gut/ Miasma (GG + Myra Davies)

            Gudrun Gut was a founding member of Einsturzende Neubauten, works
            mostly in the electronic field these days... (also ex Mania D, Matador &
            Malaria) she creates sweeping oceanic electronica, and has a lovely deep
            rich voice... get Members of the Ocean Club, or her new project with Myra
            Davies Miasma2: clear and cold at the higher elevations... Myra Davies is
            a Canadian poet, also with a gorgeous deep voice...

            > Anita Lane
            >
            Australian.... as someone once wrote "she's turned non singing
            into her own personal art form".... get Dirty Pearl... or wait for her new
            album that will be out soon...an inspired vocal stylist... if you've never
            heard her sing "Sexual Healing" or "Bonnie & Clyde" you haven't lived....

            Jane Siberry

            Canadian Singer Songwriter.....complete and total genius. Get "the
            Walking". Now.

            > Laurie Anderson
            >
            Come on, I don't believe you've never heard of Laurie Anderson....


            Anna
          • Anna Clare McDuff
            ... I should think so.... what s the idea, that women have to isolate themselves from all male influence to be taken seriously? That if there s any male input
            Message 5 of 13 , May 29, 1998
            • 0 Attachment
              On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anders Dahl wrote:
              > >Becker gives readings from the brothers Grimm, and
              > >interprets traditional German folk music and the songs of Brecht, Weill,
              > >Einsturzende Neubauten and Brahms
              >
              > ...Ironically only male composers... sorry ... didn't mean to....forget that.
              >
              I should think so.... what's the idea, that women have to isolate
              themselves from all male influence to be taken seriously? That if
              there's any male input to a project at all, then all the credit must go to
              the men? Do men isolate themselves from women when composing/recording?
              Refuse to speak to women, just in case they might get some female input?
              Interestingly enough, it looks very likely that a lot of Brecht's stuff
              may have been written by women.... Its certain that a lot of his stuff
              was heavily influenced by women...That was how women got their voices
              heard in those days... either they had to take on male psuedonyms, or
              they had their collaborations with men go out under his name only...

              We are half the human species, not creatures from Mars.... As
              Becker is reinterpreting german culture for the 1990s don't you think that
              a lot of her source material is going to be male? And don't you think this
              might have something to do with women being denied the opportunity to
              contribute to that culture until very recently? And it still being
              incredibly difficult for women to get their voices heard? Think about
              it.... It would be incredibly tedious if womens music continued to be
              consigned to the ghetto/mariana trench of "Female Stuff". It's _Human_
              stuff... I love music irregardless of whether its performed/ composed by
              women or men... Quality, not gender is what is important to me...what
              burns me up is that so often the "Women's Music" I love is my own little
              secret, and thus I must infer that there is a whole world of stuff I
              haven't got to hear about... considering I got 6 tapes in the post this
              morning containing lots of fabulous stuff by male artists I'd heard of and
              women artists that I'd never previously heard of, I think this is a fair
              inference....

              I'm happy to look through my collection to see what I can share
              with you... but I don't think I have to prove anything to you... You make
              it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
              is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
              possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....

              Anna
            • James Patrick Moran
              ... I was agreeing with the point made about the existence artists in this genre(whatever it is) When I thought of someone I saw while living in Atlanta. Idont
              Message 6 of 13 , May 29, 1998
              • 0 Attachment
                On Fri, 29 May 1998, Anna Clare McDuff wrote:

                > From: Anna Clare McDuff <psp01acm@...>
                >
                > >
                >
                > As Per Anders's request.....
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > > Maggie Nichols
                > > Sylvia Hallett
                > > Sue Ferrar
                >
                > These three are all exponents of British Improv....they gig more
                > than they record, and I bet you'll never find their CDs in Sweden, so not
                > much point in listing them really, but if you're ever at an Improv
                > Festival you might be lucky enough to hear them........
                >
                > > Gloria Coates
                >
                > A composer... as I type I have her Symphony # 4, Chiaroscuro
                > (1984/1990) on my walkman, and utterly stunning it is, too...
                >
                > > Miranda Sex Garden (+ solo)
                >
                > Have done various things, mainly in the field of early music...
                > best known for their albums of madrigals...
                >
                > > Julia Wolfe
                >
                > Another composer... Amazing use of dissonance! I was listening to
                > Steam, just a few minutes ago... *very* good....
                >
                > > Sheila Chandra
                > > Diamanda Galas
                >
                > Two incomparible experimental vocalists....Galas is coming from an
                > operatic tradition (trained with Xenakis amongst others) and Chandra from
                > a traditional Asian perspective (remember Monsoon and Indipop?) for Galas,
                > start with Plague Mass, for Chandra, I'd reccommend either ABoneCroneDrone
                > or the Zen Kiss as starting points....
                >
                > > Natacha Atlas
                >
                > We were talking about her earlier... Belgian Arabic Jewish British
                > vocalist and bellydancer....has worked with transglobal uNderground and
                > the Invaders of the Heart amongst others... get "Diaspora" for the
                > achingly lovely "Duden"
                >
                > > Lisa Gerrard
                > >
                > Vocalist.... works/worked with Dead Can Dance... (are they
                > still going?) medaeval influences... get the Mirror Pool, or some DCD
                > albums....she has a new one out, but I've not heard it yet....
                >
                > Meret Becker
                >
                > I told you about her...a goddesss!
                >
                > > Gudrun Gut/ Miasma (GG + Myra Davies)
                >
                > Gudrun Gut was a founding member of Einsturzende Neubauten, works
                > mostly in the electronic field these days... (also ex Mania D, Matador &
                > Malaria) she creates sweeping oceanic electronica, and has a lovely deep
                > rich voice... get Members of the Ocean Club, or her new project with Myra
                > Davies Miasma2: clear and cold at the higher elevations... Myra Davies is
                > a Canadian poet, also with a gorgeous deep voice...
                >
                > > Anita Lane
                > >
                > Australian.... as someone once wrote "she's turned non singing
                > into her own personal art form".... get Dirty Pearl... or wait for her new
                > album that will be out soon...an inspired vocal stylist... if you've never
                > heard her sing "Sexual Healing" or "Bonnie & Clyde" you haven't lived....
                >
                > Jane Siberry
                >
                > Canadian Singer Songwriter.....complete and total genius. Get "the
                > Walking". Now.
                >
                > > Laurie Anderson
                > >
                > Come on, I don't believe you've never heard of Laurie Anderson....
                >
                >
                > Anna

                I was agreeing with the point made about the existence artists in this
                genre(whatever it is) When I thought of someone I saw while living in
                Atlanta. Idont even know if she has anything out you can buy, but I was
                very impressed seeing her live. Her name is Jill Burton and she's an
                amazing performer. Why hasn't anyone covered her. Idon;t know? It's fodder
                for thought
                Jill Burton's web page:www.purplefrog.com/~christy/red-mona/jill.html
              • Oeivind Idsoe
                ... I think maybe you are being a bit paranoid here... Because I can t believe that most men, including myself, would have any objections whatsover towards
                Message 7 of 13 , May 29, 1998
                • 0 Attachment
                  Anna Clare McDuff wrote:

                  > I should think so.... what's the idea, that women have to isolate
                  > themselves from all male influence to be taken seriously? That if
                  > there's any male input to a project at all, then all the credit must go to
                  > the men? Do men isolate themselves from women when composing/recording?
                  > Refuse to speak to women, just in case they might get some female input?

                  I think maybe you are being a bit paranoid here...

                  Because I can't believe that most men, including myself, would have any
                  objections
                  whatsover towards working together with women, but as some have already pointed
                  out: There are not many women around who are involved in music-making or
                  playing!
                  I'm speaking from personal experience (and from other musicians' experiences),
                  and
                  the female interest (in general) in music isn't nearly as obsessive and
                  time-consuming as is the case with many of the members of their "genderous"
                  counter-part.

                  We could do a demographic on this list, for instance, and I feel confident it
                  wouldn't reveal any major representation on the part of women. One could argue,
                  of
                  course, that this is due to the fact that The Wire doesn't cover as many female
                  artists as females would like, and that most women therefore have no interest in
                  subscribing to the magazine or to this list. However, I don't think this is the
                  case.

                  I won't deny that the male dominance is some sort of "viscious circle" -- i.e.
                  many
                  men have always made music, and many men have always been running the music
                  press
                  -- where male dominance is maintained simply because they've "always been
                  around".
                  But I would still argue that women in music represent a definite minority, and
                  that
                  The Wire can't expand their coverage of them with 50% just because women
                  represent
                  50% of the population. It's just not that simple. An increase in coverage should
                  be
                  based on creativity, not gender (although this might sound a bit naive, but
                  still...).

                  (there's one exception to the above, I think: I've noticed that many women/girls
                  often join their local choir. Anyone have any ideas as to why they are more
                  comfortable in this setting rather in the ordinay band environment or, even
                  worse
                  :-) , behind a geeky computer (theory: girls are probably far too "sociable" to
                  sit
                  alone in their bedroom twiddling with knobs and programming algorithmic
                  composition
                  software)).

                  > Interestingly enough, it looks very likely that a lot of Brecht's stuff
                  > may have been written by women....

                  This certainly explains his theory about Verfremdung. ;)

                  > Its certain that a lot of his stuff was heavily influenced by women...

                  I don't think Brecht is the only male writer to be influenced by women -- I
                  would
                  say many/most male writers (and musicians and painters and sculptors and etc.)
                  are
                  heavily influenced by women!

                  >a lot of her source material is going to be male? And don't you think this

                  > might have something to do with women being denied the opportunity to
                  > contribute to that culture until very recently? And it still being
                  > incredibly difficult for women to get their voices heard? Think about
                  > it....

                  I agree. But this still doesn't mean 'many women are making music, they are just
                  not getting the coverage'. It's more a question of potential, and how this
                  potential might be released, I think.

                  > It would be incredibly tedious if womens music continued to be
                  > consigned to the ghetto/mariana trench of "Female Stuff". It's _Human_
                  > stuff... I love music irregardless of whether its performed/ composed by
                  > women or men... Quality, not gender is what is important to me...

                  Doesn't the above contradict the entire premise of your inital postings
                  concerning
                  this topic? When you say "more women should be featured in The Wire", it is an
                  argument explicitly based on gender, isn't it (as opposed to "more quality
                  artists
                  should be featured in The Wire", where gender isn't the issue)?

                  > You make
                  > it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
                  > is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
                  > possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....

                  I don't think people are sexist just because they claim women represent a
                  minority
                  in music. At least I don't hope so.

                  And just for the record: I love Laurie Anderson, Lise Gerrard, Natasha Barrett
                  (electroacoustic composer from Britain), Sheila Chandra and Anja Garbarek (!) to
                  mention a few, not to mention the brilliance of the likes of Stina Nordenstam
                  and
                  Bj�rk. But that's because they make beautiful music, not because they're women.
                  And
                  most of these names (and many from your list) have been covered in The Wire (and
                  a
                  dozen other magazines).

                  > Anna

                  /�ivind/
                • Anna Clare McDuff
                  ... No I was being sarcastic..... perrennial hazard with Brits, I m afraid ;-) You ll get used to it... ... I think Ianw disagrees with you there....I do
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 30, 1998
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Fri, 29 May 1998, Oeivind Idsoe wrote:
                    > Anna Clare McDuff wrote:
                    >
                    > > I should think so.... what's the idea, that women have to isolate
                    > > themselves from all male influence to be taken seriously? That if
                    > > there's any male input to a project at all, then all the credit must go to
                    > > the men? Do men isolate themselves from women when composing/recording?
                    > > Refuse to speak to women, just in case they might get some female input?
                    >
                    > I think maybe you are being a bit paranoid here...

                    No I was being sarcastic..... perrennial hazard with Brits,
                    I'm afraid ;-) You'll get used to it...

                    > out: There are not many women around who are involved in music-making or
                    > playing!
                    > I'm speaking from personal experience (and from other musicians' experiences),
                    > and

                    I think Ianw disagrees with you there....I do too... I know lots
                    of female musicians.... as many female ones as male ones...


                    > the female interest (in general) in music isn't nearly as obsessive and
                    > time-consuming as is the case with many of the members of their "genderous"
                    > counter-part.
                    >

                    No, we just get put off by being patronised and ignored... so
                    although I am a self confessed music addict, I don't spend much time
                    hanging around the "scene" because I all to often get the distinct feeling
                    that I am *very* unwelcome... so I do much of my obsessing in private...
                    It could be worse though... one of my close friends is really into fantasy
                    games and sci -fi and has many hilarious tales of going into fantasy/sci
                    fi shops/conventions.... she really enjoys just standing there browsing
                    and freaking out all the spotty youths and beardies who seem to have never
                    seen an actual two-X-chromosomed person up close before...


                    > We could do a demographic on this list, for instance, and I feel confident it
                    > wouldn't reveal any major representation on the part of women. One could
                    argue,

                    I wouldn't be the tiniest bit surpised if I was the only female
                    subscribed to this list... Doesn't that bother you? Don't you think that
                    says something about the list, the "serious" music scene? That it's
                    extremely sexist, for example? As I've said, and Ianw said, there are lots
                    of women involved in making music, lots of women who love hearing music,
                    lots of women who want to know more about music, and lots of women who
                    love discussing music on the net... I know, I correspond with lots.....
                    so why do they avoid the "serious" music scene? Why, when there are so
                    many women happy to post to other music lists, where some of the same
                    stuff we discuss here is discussed, are there so few women posting to
                    *this* music list...????

                    Try a simple exercise... but you'll need a female friend to help
                    you! Go into your favourite "serious" music shop, preferably one where
                    they sell nothing but cutting edge Techno. Start browsing. Observe how the
                    staff and the other customers interact with each other and you. After five
                    minutes have your female friend walk in, and start browsing. Observe how
                    the staff and the other customers interact with each other & her... trust
                    me, there will be a big difference. I've often walked into these places
                    and wondered if my skin was bright green with purple spots... Much as I
                    love electronic music I really fucking *hate* the attitude in these
                    places... I mean this is a scene that regularly abandons clubs if too many
                    women show up, on the grounds that they're "spoilt".... Misogyny isn't
                    pretty, and its rampant there.... I have so much respect for people like
                    Gudrun Gut who continue to produce electronic music in this climate...

                    You can repeat this exercise in Instrument retailers, Hi-Fi
                    equipment shops.... I *well* remember the creep who tried to refuse to
                    sell me the tuner I wanted on the grounds that it was grey, and therefore
                    wouldn't colour co-ordinate with my other equipment... Mmmmmm.... I nearly
                    bit his head off.


                    > 50% of the population. It's just not that simple. An increase in coverage
                    should
                    > be
                    > based on creativity, not gender (although this might sound a bit naive, but
                    > still...).

                    Thats exactly what I'm saying... Women are creating a lot of music
                    and are getting much less cover than they should be getting on the grounds
                    of creativity.... So the cover needs to be increased!


                    >
                    > (there's one exception to the above, I think: I've noticed that many
                    women/girls
                    > often join their local choir. Anyone have any ideas as to why they are more
                    > comfortable in this setting rather in the ordinay band environment or, even
                    > worse
                    > :-) , behind a geeky computer (theory: girls are probably far too "sociable"
                    to
                    > sit
                    > alone in their bedroom twiddling with knobs and programming algorithmic
                    > composition
                    > software)).
                    >

                    No. See above! Thats exactly the sort of thing I'm talking
                    about... The minute you get away from these highly misogynistic
                    atmospheres so pervasive in genres like electronica you begin to see women
                    everywhere creating all sorts of fabulous stuff....And I bet you that if
                    the techno-bods got over their deep fear of women (having two x
                    chromosomes isn't contagious, you know...) you would start to see many
                    more women happily fiddling with composition software.... Its tedious and
                    stressful to constantly battle for recognition from people who despise
                    you. THats why so many women end up in the ghetto of "women's music" (a
                    term I hate, as I've said in previous postings, it all "human music")...

                    > > It would be incredibly tedious if womens music continued to be
                    > > consigned to the ghetto/mariana trench of "Female Stuff". It's _Human_
                    > > stuff... I love music irregardless of whether its performed/ composed by
                    > > women or men... Quality, not gender is what is important to me...
                    >
                    > Doesn't the above contradict the entire premise of your inital postings
                    > concerning
                    > this topic? When you say "more women should be featured in The Wire", it is an
                    > argument explicitly based on gender, isn't it (as opposed to "more quality
                    > artists
                    > should be featured in The Wire", where gender isn't the issue)?


                    No. Again you're misunderstanding me. The argument I'm making is
                    simple: There are vast numbers of female artists making music. THey are
                    getting much less coverage than they should be getting when you consider
                    how many of them there are, and the quality of their work. Therefore, that
                    coverage should be increased. OK?


                    > I don't think people are sexist just because they claim women represent a
                    > minority
                    > in music. At least I don't hope so.


                    I'm afraid that it's sexism that leads to the belief that women
                    aren't musicians.... You can hold this belief without being wilfully
                    sexist yourself, but you have to recognise the sexism in society that
                    undervalues and ignores women achievment's and makes them invisible...
                    *Persisting* in the belief that women aren't musicians after evidence to
                    the contrary *is* sexist.

                    >
                    > And just for the record: I love Laurie Anderson, Lise Gerrard, Natasha Barrett
                    > (electroacoustic composer from Britain), Sheila Chandra and Anja Garbarek (!)
                    to
                    > mention a few, not to mention the brilliance of the likes of Stina Nordenstam
                    > and
                    > Bj�rk. But that's because they make beautiful music, not because they're
                    women.

                    Thats exactly why I love them too.. haven't you been paying
                    attention to what I've been saying?


                    > And
                    > most of these names (and many from your list) have been covered in The Wire
                    (and
                    > a
                    > dozen other magazines).


                    Really? Great! In that case can you tell me all about Gloria
                    Coates & Julia Wolfe in particular? My friends and I have been wondering
                    about them, as all we have is their (stunning) music, with no background
                    info *at all* Are they alive? Are they Dead? Come on, tell me!


                    Anna
                  • Oeivind Idsoe
                    ... experiences), ... Well, then it s probably a matter of personal experience and geographics (Norway vs. England would result in a perhaps large difference
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 31, 1998
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Anna Clare McDuff wrote:

                      > > out: There are not many women around who are involved in music-making or
                      > > playing!
                      > > I'm speaking from personal experience (and from other musicians'
                      experiences),
                      > > and
                      >
                      > I think Ianw disagrees with you there....I do too... I know lots
                      > of female musicians.... as many female ones as male ones...

                      Well, then it's probably a matter of personal experience and geographics (Norway
                      vs.
                      England would result in a perhaps large difference between gender-participation
                      in
                      music) ...I know quite a few musicians, but I can honestly say that there aren't
                      many women around in my "neighbourhood". They *are* around, but perhaps there's
                      a
                      different tradition in this country when it comes to the number of people
                      participating?

                      > I wouldn't be the tiniest bit surpised if I was the only female
                      > subscribed to this list... Doesn't that bother you? Don't you think that
                      > says something about the list, the "serious" music scene?

                      I know Anne Hilde (hei! :-) at The Wire is probably reading this, so you are not
                      all
                      alone...

                      Anyways, I'm basically on this list to discuss and read about music and whether
                      or
                      not it comes from male or female is, for me, not really relevant. Of course I'd
                      wish
                      more women were on the list, as they often represent a different position and
                      view
                      on things altogether, which is very refreshing, but why aren't they here? You
                      mention things being "extremely sexist" as one reason, which contradicts all of
                      my
                      mailing-list experiences during the last few years. I've been on lists where
                      women
                      are a definite minority, but this has never been "used against them" and they've
                      never been harassed in any way (at least not publically (some idiots can only be
                      "tough" in private, you know)).

                      (perhaps the general feeling of male dominance is putting them off from sub'ing
                      to
                      this list, but what else can people on the list do about this other than being
                      friendly and non-hostile once they turn up?)

                      > so why do they avoid the "serious" music scene?

                      I have no idea. Perhaps, and with good reason!, they don't like the pretentious
                      attitude of "serious musicians" or "serious music listeners", and seldom feel
                      that
                      music is a question of life and death? Some men seem willing to die for their
                      convictions -- "if the rest of the world doesn't listen to Artist X something
                      really, really bad will happen" -- and I don't believe women are buying this.

                      > Go into your favourite "serious" music shop, preferably one where
                      > they sell nothing but cutting edge Techno.

                      I don't know of *any* cutting edge Techno shops in Norway (I order all my stuff
                      from
                      abroad, the UK mostly), so this experiment would be impossible to conduct! :)

                      > I *well* remember the creep who tried to refuse to
                      > sell me the tuner I wanted on the grounds that it was grey, and therefore
                      > wouldn't colour co-ordinate with my other equipment... Mmmmmm.... I nearly
                      > bit his head off.

                      But, hey, does one creep make us all creeps? I hope not! Some of us *are* nice,
                      you
                      know. Or at least trying to be.

                      > And I bet you that if
                      > the techno-bods got over their deep fear of women (having two x
                      > chromosomes isn't contagious, you know...) you would start to see many
                      > more women happily fiddling with composition software....

                      You are saying "...the techno bods...", and then "...you would start...", so I
                      guess
                      you are including me in your category of "women-hating/fearing" men, which just
                      shows how difficult this subject is to discuss. Once you start throwing around
                      terms
                      like "women hater" or "women fearer" I find it very hard to discuss things any
                      further. How can I prove to you via a piece of e-mail that I am not a
                      women-hater/fearer? Not so easy, I'd say. ;) The fact that I disagree with you
                      on
                      certain points (not all!) doesn't necessarily make me one thing or the other, it
                      just means I disagree with you.

                      Because if things were *that* explicit, they probably wouldn't be so difficult
                      to
                      solve. Power operates in mysterious ways (like Foucault has shown), and perhaps
                      more
                      often on a micro-level rather than operating through a simple "No!".

                      (How about those wonderful chaps, Deleuze&Guattari: "Woman: we all have to
                      become
                      that, whether we are male or female." (see pages 469-471 in A Thousand Plateaus
                      for
                      the specifics concerning women (and non-whites) and the "Apparatus Of Capture"
                      --
                      it's brilliant).

                      > I'm afraid that it's sexism that leads to the belief that women aren't
                      musicians....
                      >You can hold this belief without being wilfully sexist yourself, but you have
                      to
                      recognise
                      >the sexism in society that undervalues and ignores women achievment's and makes
                      them
                      >invisible... *Persisting* in the belief that women aren't musicians after
                      evidence
                      to the
                      >contrary *is* sexist.

                      As I said, my experience has never given me the impression that the number of
                      women
                      making music are as numerous as men making music. And I've never said that women
                      aren't musicians, which is naturally a sexist claim if there ever was one. I am
                      simply stating I haven't seen so many of them around, and that if there aren't
                      that
                      many around I can understand the fact that The Wire doesn't have a 50% coverage
                      of
                      women.

                      Your experience seems quite different from mine, but I guess neither of them
                      should
                      constitute an absolute since they are only approximations and in no way
                      represent
                      the total demographics of women involved in music (or something like that).

                      And I do recognize sexism in society.

                      > > And
                      > > most of these names (and many from your list) have been covered in The Wire
                      > (and
                      > > a
                      > > dozen other magazines).
                      >
                      > Really? Great! In that case can you tell me all about Gloria
                      > Coates & Julia Wolfe in particular? My friends and I have been wondering
                      > about them, as all we have is their (stunning) music, with no background
                      > info *at all* Are they alive? Are they Dead? Come on, tell me!

                      There's that British sarcasm again, right? ;)

                      After all, I did say "many from your list", and not "your entire list". I could
                      easily give you a list of my *own* favourite musicians who haven't been
                      represented
                      in The Wire. So why don't you tell me all about Randall Smith or Jonty Harrison
                      or
                      Zoviet France or Bernard Parmegiani or Iancu Dumitrescu, and I guess we're just
                      about back to square one.

                      > Anna

                      /�ivind/
                    • Anna Clare McDuff
                      ... I d ... of ... they ve ... be ... I was referring more to the serious music scene being sexist than this list... One of the reasons I love music related
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Sun, 31 May 1998, Oeivind Idsoe wrote:

                        > or
                        > not it comes from male or female is, for me, not really relevant. Of course
                        I'd
                        > wish
                        > more women were on the list, as they often represent a different position and
                        > view
                        > on things altogether, which is very refreshing, but why aren't they here? You
                        > mention things being "extremely sexist" as one reason, which contradicts all
                        of
                        > my
                        > mailing-list experiences during the last few years. I've been on lists where
                        > women
                        > are a definite minority, but this has never been "used against them" and
                        they've
                        > never been harassed in any way (at least not publically (some idiots can only
                        be
                        > "tough" in private, you know)).
                        >


                        I was referring more to the "serious" music scene being sexist
                        than this list... One of the reasons I love music related mailing lists is
                        that I can discuss music without getting all the crap that so often occurs
                        in RL situations.... In my experience, a lot of women are put off the
                        "serious" scene because they feel really unwelcome, but they love the
                        music... So they wouldn't consider subscribing to this list, because
                        they think it will just be the same old story....Sad, but thats the
                        way it is...Thats the reason why I try to agitate for change! Its just
                        *so* offputting going to "serious" shops sometimes I just don't bother....
                        And I'm a fifth generation feminist and not exactly a shrinking violet (as
                        you may have noticed! ;-)). Its a shame, because I love stuff on the Chain
                        Reaction label (Monolake have been on my walkman often recently, and I
                        find they make an excellent soundtrack for London Commuting! Fabulous
                        stuff... I strongly reccommend their album "Hong Kong"... ambient
                        recordings of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese cities morphed into sinous
                        graceful techno... ), for example, and its often is hard to find in the
                        Mainstream Alternative shops I feel more comfortable in... and yes, I do a
                        lot of mail order as well! (much more than I should, considering I'm a
                        perpetually broke PhD student;-))


                        > > so why do they avoid the "serious" music scene?
                        >
                        > I have no idea. Perhaps, and with good reason!, they don't like the
                        pretentious
                        > attitude of "serious musicians" or "serious music listeners", and seldom feel
                        > that
                        > music is a question of life and death? Some men seem willing to die for their
                        > convictions -- "if the rest of the world doesn't listen to Artist X something
                        > really, really bad will happen" -- and I don't believe women are buying this.


                        I often find pretentious musicians exceptionally hilarious and a
                        bottomless source of amusement.... Anyone remember that F.S.O.L. Invisible
                        Jukebox? *Still* has me in stitches....:-)


                        > > I *well* remember the creep who tried to refuse to
                        > > sell me the tuner I wanted on the grounds that it was grey, and therefore
                        > > wouldn't colour co-ordinate with my other equipment... Mmmmmm.... I nearly
                        > > bit his head off.
                        >
                        > But, hey, does one creep make us all creeps? I hope not! Some of us *are*
                        nice,
                        > you
                        > know. Or at least trying to be.

                        Yeah, I know.... Its just that these experiences do tend to
                        rankle! I try not to be bitter, but after lots of nasty experiences you do
                        tend to get a bit defensive, if you know what I mean... Since that awful
                        afternoon ( I was really upset by that creep ) I've found a chain
                        of retailers in the UK that has a policy of being non-patronising to
                        women... they're called Richer Sounds, if anyone's interested, and I now
                        buy all my hi-fi equipment there... Its *so* refreshing to walk into one
                        of their shops and not be treated like a half wit! THey're very good value
                        as well... *and* they do second hand stuff as well as new.... Worth
                        looking out for!


                        >
                        > > And I bet you that if
                        > > the techno-bods got over their deep fear of women (having two x
                        > > chromosomes isn't contagious, you know...) you would start to see many
                        > > more women happily fiddling with composition software....
                        >
                        > You are saying "...the techno bods...", and then "...you would start...", so I
                        > guess
                        > you are including me in your category of "women-hating/fearing" men, which
                        just


                        No I wasn't actually, though that sentence is rather ambiguous,
                        sorry. The grammatically correct word in the phrase "you would start" is
                        "ONE would start" but like most Brits, I hate using the pronoun ONE
                        because it makes you/one sound like an inbred halfwitted aristocrat! One
                        has no wish to do Prince Charles impersonations... Serious Techno Bods in
                        general *do* have a serious problem with women getting into their music,
                        I've noticed, but, of course there are always exceptions.... I'm glad to
                        have met one! (<giggle> there's that word again, isn't the English
                        Language awful!)


                        > Because if things were *that* explicit, they probably wouldn't be so difficult
                        > to
                        > solve. Power operates in mysterious ways (like Foucault has shown), and
                        perhaps
                        > more
                        > often on a micro-level rather than operating through a simple "No!".
                        >
                        > (How about those wonderful chaps, Deleuze&Guattari: "Woman: we all have to
                        > become
                        > that, whether we are male or female." (see pages 469-471 in A Thousand
                        Plateaus
                        > for
                        > the specifics concerning women (and non-whites) and the "Apparatus Of Capture"
                        > --
                        > it's brilliant).


                        I agree there are many subtlties in the interaction between
                        genders, things are never black or white, but I also argue that there are
                        many instances of unsubtle oppression. A century of campaigning in the
                        West has meant that these are less common than they once were, but there
                        are still plenty to go around! Things have improved for female
                        musicians/composers... they now get merely ignored, which is a lot better
                        than being forbidden to compose or having to put your works out under a
                        man's name, but it still sucks....


                        Anna
                      • Anna Clare McDuff
                        ... Well, I m sorry if you didn t mean to be insulting, but *I* was insulted when I wrote that email... I hate having to prove to people that women can do this
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Anders Dahl wrote:

                          > From: Anders Dahl <anders@...>
                          >
                          > > I'm happy to look through my collection to see what I can share
                          > >with you... but I don't think I have to prove anything to you... You make
                          > >it sound like the idea that women can create beautiful, worthwhile music
                          > >is a dangerously radical one that must be backed up by as much proof as
                          > >possible...Thats the sort of sexist crap that makes my head spin....
                          > >
                          > > Anna
                          > >
                          > I'm sorry you interpret everything I write in the worst possible way all
                          > the time.
                          >
                          > I know women can ( and do ) produce great music so you don't have to prove
                          > that. I only wanted to get tuned on to some new great music.
                          >
                          > A somewhat insulted Anders.

                          Well, I'm sorry if you didn't mean to be insulting, but *I* was
                          insulted when I wrote that email... I hate having to prove to people that
                          women can do this or that... you'd think it wouldn't be necessary any
                          more, but it still is, sometimes, & it pisses me off! Its *unbelievably*
                          depressing to have to fight the same battles my great great grandmother
                          Maud had to fight... I'm working on another annotated list to share with
                          you all, but it will probably take a week or more as I'm hideously busy at
                          the mo'.... so much so that I may even be <gasp> off line for a while....


                          Anna
                        • Tom Ewing
                          ... Rough Trade almost always have a wide range of CR stuff, as you doubtless know :). I second the Monolake recommendation, by the way - one of my favourite
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 1, 1998
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Anna Clare McDuff wrote:
                            >
                            > you may have noticed! ;-)). Its a shame, because I love stuff on the Chain
                            > Reaction label (Monolake have been on my walkman often recently, and I
                            > find they make an excellent soundtrack for London Commuting! Fabulous
                            > stuff... I strongly reccommend their album "Hong Kong"... ambient
                            > recordings of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese cities morphed into sinous
                            > graceful techno... ), for example, and its often is hard to find in the
                            > Mainstream Alternative shops I feel more comfortable in... and yes, I do a
                            > lot of mail order as well! (much more than I should, considering I'm a
                            > perpetually broke PhD student;-))

                            Rough Trade almost always have a wide range of CR stuff, as you doubtless
                            know :). I second the Monolake recommendation, by the way - one of my
                            favourite recent records, and probably the easiest way into the Chain
                            Reaction aesthetic (are there any clubs where this stuff actually gets
                            played loud?). I found the latest CD (Substance) a bit disappointing,
                            though.

                            My one facile contribution to the women and hi-fi shops debate: I find it
                            very annoying how people in hi-fi shops assume you know exactly what
                            you're after because you're a man. :) I know sweet f.a. about my hi-fi,
                            and regard even the fact that it works with religious awe, so I wish
                            hi-fi shop people would funnel some patronisation my way. Maybe drag.

                            Thanks for the info re. improv, by the way. I work in london though don't
                            live in it. I do know there's a kind of mini-festival going on at the
                            moment, so when my paycheque comes through this month I'll investigate
                            (Evan Parker is playing soon, and since he's a name I recognise, he might
                            be a good place to start.)

                            Cheers,
                            Tom.
                          • Mark Hadley
                            Hello :) RE: the recent discussion about Women & Music. I ve just been talking to Phil Earle who runs Law & Auder records (see the latest Wire (172) : the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 11, 1998
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello :)

                              RE: the recent discussion about Women & Music.

                              I've just been talking to Phil Earle who runs Law & Auder records (see
                              the latest Wire (172) : the subscription offer) And one of his up &
                              coming CD comps is a Women Only Electronica Compilation, (he likes these
                              themed things!), he's already got quite a lot a tracks but if you know
                              of any female electronic artists that might be interested then you can
                              drop him a line at:

                              PEarle@...


                              Bye,


                              Mark.
                              --

                              * * * * * * * * * * * * * + * * * *

                              Mark Hadley:mark.hadley@...
                              ?
                              http://freespace.virgin.net/mark.hadley/mark/go.html
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.