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RE: [thewire] gap

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  • Jason Jay Stevens
    ... Really? You fall for that sort of nonsense? I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason: it works people are suckers for
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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      On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:

      > This is sickening.
      >
      > Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
      > hmm, cool company.

      Really?
      You fall for that sort of nonsense?

      I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
      it works

      people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
      attractive music
      regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
      (and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)

      Just a reminder:
      corporations hire ad agencies
      which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
      who know a thing or two about music
      (and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
      for the inside scoop...)
      and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
      especially music with a cult following
      and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
      which appeals to you in your television trance state
      and suggests to you
      "hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
      I might buy some next time I go to the mall."

      smash your TV, man



      + From: JasonJayStevens
      + mediaArts&research
      + potterBelmarLabs
      + spoke@...
    • Jawed Ashraf
      I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market. (More
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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        I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls
        magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market.
        (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one of
        the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
        magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
        audience...)

        "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
        hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.

        Jawed

        >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
        >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
        >
        >> This is sickening.
        >>
        >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
        >> hmm, cool company.
        >
        >Really?
        >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
        >
        >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
        >it works
        >
        >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
        >attractive music
        >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
        >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
        >
        >Just a reminder:
        >corporations hire ad agencies
        >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
        >who know a thing or two about music
        >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
        >for the inside scoop...)
        >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
        >especially music with a cult following
        >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
        >which appeals to you in your television trance state
        >and suggests to you
        >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
        > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
        >
        >smash your TV, man
        >
        >
        >
        >+ From: JasonJayStevens
        >+ mediaArts&research
        >+ potterBelmarLabs
        >+ spoke@...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
        >
        >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
      • Steeples Paul (Mr PW)
        It sounds both opaque and interesting. In my experience, a lot of this cultural criticism incorporates interesting and probably good ideas buried under tons of
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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          It sounds both opaque and interesting. In my experience, a lot of this
          cultural criticism incorporates interesting and probably good ideas buried
          under tons of jargon and footnotes (the curse of academia). Anyway, it gives
          me something to look into I'd not come across before which, in spite of the
          views of some malcontents, is what makes this forum worthwhile to me...

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Manuel V. Cabrera Jr. [mailto:mandelc@...]
          Sent: 02 December 2000 17:00
          To: thewire@egroups.com
          Subject: Re: [thewire] gap


          I never thought i'd hear the cocteau twins, jim o'rourke, and nick drake
          on
          commercials, but it's happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with
          many
          marxist social theorists like frederic jameson (whom i oterwise find quite
          disagreeable) and slavoj zizek, who constantly pound at the point that
          capitalism's greatest contemporary achievement has been to successfully
          co-opt
          all of the cultural-revolutionary ambitions of modernity. the basic point
          of
          all of this is that one of the principal pretensions of much niche
          subculture is
          that it is exempt from co-optation, which allows that co-optation to occur
          all
          the more effectively. the point of folks like zizek is that it is the
          subjective relation that determines whether or not an artifact or artifacts
          will, will not be, or will have always already been co-opted into a
          capitalist
          cultural logic. for zizek, what distinguishes this cultural logic is
          cynicism/melancholy, in which one is put in the position of pining after the
          cause of one's desire (in strict contrast to the object of one's desire)
          despite
          the fact that one is still in possession of the object of one's desire. in
          the
          case of 'underground' music, a jim o'rourke song being used in a commercial
          (i
          can't remember the company that used one of his songs from 'eureka') steals
          away
          the cause of one's desire for this music: something like its 'underground'
          status. if i become nostalgic for this elite status, what i am doing is
          pining
          after the desire of the other (all those who belong to the
          'underground'--which
          functions here as a symbolic fiction), that is, after the other's unmediated
          (in
          this case, literally--unmediated by the media) access to enjoyment. for
          zizek,
          this is the structure of melancholy, and is the improper ethical stance.
          what this leaves, of course, is mourning, which for zizek conforms to
          the
          lacanian notion thereof: elevating the object to the place of The Thing,
          which
          is akin to the Kantian thing-in-itself. what this means is putting the
          object
          in the place of the desire of the other and thereby revealing the
          irreducible
          gap in the other's desire. what this really amounts to is something i'm
          still
          trying to figure out in my continuing study of Zizek's interesting
          combination
          of lacan and marx in his philosophy of social phenomena.
          the short end of it is that i ifnd zizek's perspective that nostalgia
          for
          what is often called an 'underground' status for cultural objects fits just
          perfectly into the cultural logic of capitalism, and facilitates the
          ideological
          co-optation of those cultural objects.
          apologies for the brevity and relative opacity of these comments.
          really,
          i'm not one of those jargon-tossing continental philosophy people: i just
          didn't
          want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least
          the
          comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
          and/or corrections will be wlecome.

          manuel cabrera

          Jawed Ashraf wrote:

          > I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things,
          girls
          > magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his
          market.
          > (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one
          of
          > the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
          > magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
          > audience...)
          >
          > "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
          > hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.
          >
          > Jawed
          >
          > >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
          > >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
          > >
          > >> This is sickening.
          > >>
          > >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you
          think,
          > >> hmm, cool company.
          > >
          > >Really?
          > >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
          > >
          > >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
          > >it works
          > >
          > >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening
          to
          > >attractive music
          > >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
          > >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
          > >
          > >Just a reminder:
          > >corporations hire ad agencies
          > >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
          > >who know a thing or two about music
          > >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
          > >for the inside scoop...)
          > >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
          > >especially music with a cult following
          > >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
          > >which appeals to you in your television trance state
          > >and suggests to you
          > >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
          > > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
          > >
          > >smash your TV, man
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >+ From: JasonJayStevens
          > >+ mediaArts&research
          > >+ potterBelmarLabs
          > >+ spoke@...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > >
          > >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          > TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Manuel V. Cabrera Jr.
          I never thought i d hear the cocteau twins, jim o rourke, and nick drake on commercials, but it s happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with many
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 2, 2000
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            I never thought i'd hear the cocteau twins, jim o'rourke, and nick drake on
            commercials, but it's happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with many
            marxist social theorists like frederic jameson (whom i oterwise find quite
            disagreeable) and slavoj zizek, who constantly pound at the point that
            capitalism's greatest contemporary achievement has been to successfully co-opt
            all of the cultural-revolutionary ambitions of modernity. the basic point of
            all of this is that one of the principal pretensions of much niche subculture is
            that it is exempt from co-optation, which allows that co-optation to occur all
            the more effectively. the point of folks like zizek is that it is the
            subjective relation that determines whether or not an artifact or artifacts
            will, will not be, or will have always already been co-opted into a capitalist
            cultural logic. for zizek, what distinguishes this cultural logic is
            cynicism/melancholy, in which one is put in the position of pining after the
            cause of one's desire (in strict contrast to the object of one's desire) despite
            the fact that one is still in possession of the object of one's desire. in the
            case of 'underground' music, a jim o'rourke song being used in a commercial (i
            can't remember the company that used one of his songs from 'eureka') steals away
            the cause of one's desire for this music: something like its 'underground'
            status. if i become nostalgic for this elite status, what i am doing is pining
            after the desire of the other (all those who belong to the 'underground'--which
            functions here as a symbolic fiction), that is, after the other's unmediated (in
            this case, literally--unmediated by the media) access to enjoyment. for zizek,
            this is the structure of melancholy, and is the improper ethical stance.
            what this leaves, of course, is mourning, which for zizek conforms to the
            lacanian notion thereof: elevating the object to the place of The Thing, which
            is akin to the Kantian thing-in-itself. what this means is putting the object
            in the place of the desire of the other and thereby revealing the irreducible
            gap in the other's desire. what this really amounts to is something i'm still
            trying to figure out in my continuing study of Zizek's interesting combination
            of lacan and marx in his philosophy of social phenomena.
            the short end of it is that i ifnd zizek's perspective that nostalgia for
            what is often called an 'underground' status for cultural objects fits just
            perfectly into the cultural logic of capitalism, and facilitates the ideological
            co-optation of those cultural objects.
            apologies for the brevity and relative opacity of these comments. really,
            i'm not one of those jargon-tossing continental philosophy people: i just didn't
            want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least the
            comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
            and/or corrections will be wlecome.

            manuel cabrera

            Jawed Ashraf wrote:

            > I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls
            > magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market.
            > (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one of
            > the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
            > magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
            > audience...)
            >
            > "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
            > hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.
            >
            > Jawed
            >
            > >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
            > >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
            > >
            > >> This is sickening.
            > >>
            > >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
            > >> hmm, cool company.
            > >
            > >Really?
            > >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
            > >
            > >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
            > >it works
            > >
            > >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
            > >attractive music
            > >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
            > >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
            > >
            > >Just a reminder:
            > >corporations hire ad agencies
            > >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
            > >who know a thing or two about music
            > >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
            > >for the inside scoop...)
            > >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
            > >especially music with a cult following
            > >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
            > >which appeals to you in your television trance state
            > >and suggests to you
            > >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
            > > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
            > >
            > >smash your TV, man
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >+ From: JasonJayStevens
            > >+ mediaArts&research
            > >+ potterBelmarLabs
            > >+ spoke@...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            > >
            > >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
            >
            >
            > UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            > TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
          • Jason Jay Stevens
            ... Oh--it was the melancholy bit for which I needed clarification. The rest came relatively easily (relatively being the keyWord). do you (or your pundits)
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 3, 2000
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              On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, Manuel V. Cabrera Jr. wrote:
              > want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least the
              > comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
              > and/or corrections will be wlecome.

              Oh--it was the melancholy bit for which I needed clarification.
              The rest came relatively easily (relatively being the keyWord).

              do you (or your pundits) imply that capitalism possesses a gravity
              towards cynicism and melancholy?

              p.s. we Do live in self-proclaimed "post-modern capitalist" times.
              however, capitalism by-and-large functions as it did one -two hundred
              years ago.
              post-modernism has more to do with the global-awareness and
              history-awareness that our culture has developed-- and our novel
              relationship to the global and to history.

              ...........as I understand it..........


              + From: JasonJayStevens
              + mediaArts&research
              + potterBelmarLabs
              + spoke@...
            • ZURAW,BRYAN LAWRENCE
              Folks who liked the Davis bio might be interested to read an essay by Quincy Troupe (Miles co-author) about his impressions of Miles. It appeared in
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 4, 2000
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                Folks who liked the Davis bio might be interested to read
                an essay by Quincy Troupe (Miles' co-author) about his
                impressions of Miles.

                It appeared in Conjunctions 16 in 1991. It's an entire
                issue dedicated tomusical topics including an interview
                with Philip Corner, a piece on jazz by Hayden Carruth,
                Jackson MacLow , Gearld Early, Nathaniel Mackey, Amiri Baraka,
                Lukas Foss and lots more. Should be available in university libraries.

                Bryan
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