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  • ashley spradlin
    This isn t related to Christmas, really, but I was surprised by the Gap ad that played Red House Painters All Mixed Up too. Y know, the one with all the
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 29, 2000
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      This isn't related to Christmas, really, but I was surprised by the Gap ad
      that played Red House Painters' 'All Mixed Up' too. Y'know, the one with
      all the folks floating around?


      Ashley







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    • Jawed Ashraf
      This is sickening. Normally when a company uses really cool music for it s advert you think, hmm, cool company. Gap s clothes are, imho, some kind of faux-chic
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 29, 2000
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        This is sickening.

        Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
        hmm, cool company.

        Gap's clothes are, imho, some kind of faux-chic uniform for the illiterati
        and it pains me to discover yet another favourite band associated with them.

        This is far worse than CD covers being smaller than vinyl covers. Much much
        worse than Cale being alive-dead.

        It might even ruin Christmas.

        Bastards.

        Jawed
        (formulating a theory that in fact all the most insidious companies use
        really cool tunes - k peeps, lets make a list...)
      • Jason Jay Stevens
        ... Really? You fall for that sort of nonsense? I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason: it works people are suckers for
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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          On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:

          > This is sickening.
          >
          > Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
          > hmm, cool company.

          Really?
          You fall for that sort of nonsense?

          I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
          it works

          people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
          attractive music
          regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
          (and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)

          Just a reminder:
          corporations hire ad agencies
          which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
          who know a thing or two about music
          (and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
          for the inside scoop...)
          and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
          especially music with a cult following
          and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
          which appeals to you in your television trance state
          and suggests to you
          "hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
          I might buy some next time I go to the mall."

          smash your TV, man



          + From: JasonJayStevens
          + mediaArts&research
          + potterBelmarLabs
          + spoke@...
        • Jawed Ashraf
          I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market. (More
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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            I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls
            magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market.
            (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one of
            the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
            magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
            audience...)

            "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
            hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.

            Jawed

            >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
            >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
            >
            >> This is sickening.
            >>
            >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
            >> hmm, cool company.
            >
            >Really?
            >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
            >
            >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
            >it works
            >
            >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
            >attractive music
            >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
            >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
            >
            >Just a reminder:
            >corporations hire ad agencies
            >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
            >who know a thing or two about music
            >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
            >for the inside scoop...)
            >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
            >especially music with a cult following
            >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
            >which appeals to you in your television trance state
            >and suggests to you
            >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
            > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
            >
            >smash your TV, man
            >
            >
            >
            >+ From: JasonJayStevens
            >+ mediaArts&research
            >+ potterBelmarLabs
            >+ spoke@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
          • Steeples Paul (Mr PW)
            It sounds both opaque and interesting. In my experience, a lot of this cultural criticism incorporates interesting and probably good ideas buried under tons of
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2000
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              It sounds both opaque and interesting. In my experience, a lot of this
              cultural criticism incorporates interesting and probably good ideas buried
              under tons of jargon and footnotes (the curse of academia). Anyway, it gives
              me something to look into I'd not come across before which, in spite of the
              views of some malcontents, is what makes this forum worthwhile to me...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Manuel V. Cabrera Jr. [mailto:mandelc@...]
              Sent: 02 December 2000 17:00
              To: thewire@egroups.com
              Subject: Re: [thewire] gap


              I never thought i'd hear the cocteau twins, jim o'rourke, and nick drake
              on
              commercials, but it's happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with
              many
              marxist social theorists like frederic jameson (whom i oterwise find quite
              disagreeable) and slavoj zizek, who constantly pound at the point that
              capitalism's greatest contemporary achievement has been to successfully
              co-opt
              all of the cultural-revolutionary ambitions of modernity. the basic point
              of
              all of this is that one of the principal pretensions of much niche
              subculture is
              that it is exempt from co-optation, which allows that co-optation to occur
              all
              the more effectively. the point of folks like zizek is that it is the
              subjective relation that determines whether or not an artifact or artifacts
              will, will not be, or will have always already been co-opted into a
              capitalist
              cultural logic. for zizek, what distinguishes this cultural logic is
              cynicism/melancholy, in which one is put in the position of pining after the
              cause of one's desire (in strict contrast to the object of one's desire)
              despite
              the fact that one is still in possession of the object of one's desire. in
              the
              case of 'underground' music, a jim o'rourke song being used in a commercial
              (i
              can't remember the company that used one of his songs from 'eureka') steals
              away
              the cause of one's desire for this music: something like its 'underground'
              status. if i become nostalgic for this elite status, what i am doing is
              pining
              after the desire of the other (all those who belong to the
              'underground'--which
              functions here as a symbolic fiction), that is, after the other's unmediated
              (in
              this case, literally--unmediated by the media) access to enjoyment. for
              zizek,
              this is the structure of melancholy, and is the improper ethical stance.
              what this leaves, of course, is mourning, which for zizek conforms to
              the
              lacanian notion thereof: elevating the object to the place of The Thing,
              which
              is akin to the Kantian thing-in-itself. what this means is putting the
              object
              in the place of the desire of the other and thereby revealing the
              irreducible
              gap in the other's desire. what this really amounts to is something i'm
              still
              trying to figure out in my continuing study of Zizek's interesting
              combination
              of lacan and marx in his philosophy of social phenomena.
              the short end of it is that i ifnd zizek's perspective that nostalgia
              for
              what is often called an 'underground' status for cultural objects fits just
              perfectly into the cultural logic of capitalism, and facilitates the
              ideological
              co-optation of those cultural objects.
              apologies for the brevity and relative opacity of these comments.
              really,
              i'm not one of those jargon-tossing continental philosophy people: i just
              didn't
              want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least
              the
              comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
              and/or corrections will be wlecome.

              manuel cabrera

              Jawed Ashraf wrote:

              > I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things,
              girls
              > magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his
              market.
              > (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one
              of
              > the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
              > magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
              > audience...)
              >
              > "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
              > hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.
              >
              > Jawed
              >
              > >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
              > >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
              > >
              > >> This is sickening.
              > >>
              > >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you
              think,
              > >> hmm, cool company.
              > >
              > >Really?
              > >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
              > >
              > >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
              > >it works
              > >
              > >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening
              to
              > >attractive music
              > >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
              > >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
              > >
              > >Just a reminder:
              > >corporations hire ad agencies
              > >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
              > >who know a thing or two about music
              > >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
              > >for the inside scoop...)
              > >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
              > >especially music with a cult following
              > >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
              > >which appeals to you in your television trance state
              > >and suggests to you
              > >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
              > > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
              > >
              > >smash your TV, man
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >+ From: JasonJayStevens
              > >+ mediaArts&research
              > >+ potterBelmarLabs
              > >+ spoke@...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              > >
              > >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
              >
              >
              > UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              >
              > TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html



              UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com

              TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Manuel V. Cabrera Jr.
              I never thought i d hear the cocteau twins, jim o rourke, and nick drake on commercials, but it s happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with many
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 2, 2000
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                I never thought i'd hear the cocteau twins, jim o'rourke, and nick drake on
                commercials, but it's happened. but i take it all in stride: i agree with many
                marxist social theorists like frederic jameson (whom i oterwise find quite
                disagreeable) and slavoj zizek, who constantly pound at the point that
                capitalism's greatest contemporary achievement has been to successfully co-opt
                all of the cultural-revolutionary ambitions of modernity. the basic point of
                all of this is that one of the principal pretensions of much niche subculture is
                that it is exempt from co-optation, which allows that co-optation to occur all
                the more effectively. the point of folks like zizek is that it is the
                subjective relation that determines whether or not an artifact or artifacts
                will, will not be, or will have always already been co-opted into a capitalist
                cultural logic. for zizek, what distinguishes this cultural logic is
                cynicism/melancholy, in which one is put in the position of pining after the
                cause of one's desire (in strict contrast to the object of one's desire) despite
                the fact that one is still in possession of the object of one's desire. in the
                case of 'underground' music, a jim o'rourke song being used in a commercial (i
                can't remember the company that used one of his songs from 'eureka') steals away
                the cause of one's desire for this music: something like its 'underground'
                status. if i become nostalgic for this elite status, what i am doing is pining
                after the desire of the other (all those who belong to the 'underground'--which
                functions here as a symbolic fiction), that is, after the other's unmediated (in
                this case, literally--unmediated by the media) access to enjoyment. for zizek,
                this is the structure of melancholy, and is the improper ethical stance.
                what this leaves, of course, is mourning, which for zizek conforms to the
                lacanian notion thereof: elevating the object to the place of The Thing, which
                is akin to the Kantian thing-in-itself. what this means is putting the object
                in the place of the desire of the other and thereby revealing the irreducible
                gap in the other's desire. what this really amounts to is something i'm still
                trying to figure out in my continuing study of Zizek's interesting combination
                of lacan and marx in his philosophy of social phenomena.
                the short end of it is that i ifnd zizek's perspective that nostalgia for
                what is often called an 'underground' status for cultural objects fits just
                perfectly into the cultural logic of capitalism, and facilitates the ideological
                co-optation of those cultural objects.
                apologies for the brevity and relative opacity of these comments. really,
                i'm not one of those jargon-tossing continental philosophy people: i just didn't
                want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least the
                comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
                and/or corrections will be wlecome.

                manuel cabrera

                Jawed Ashraf wrote:

                > I lived with an advertising creative. He read, amongst other things, girls
                > magazines like More (teen, virtually pre-teen), in order to know his market.
                > (More is actually a good laugh - the sexual position of the week was one of
                > the best bits - and then there's the irony of something like that in a
                > magazine for 12-15 year olds though it also seems to have a 20-something
                > audience...)
                >
                > "Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
                > hmm, cool company" was rhetorical.
                >
                > Jawed
                >
                > >===== Original Message From Jason Jay Stevens <spoke@...> =====
                > >On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Jawed Ashraf wrote:
                > >
                > >> This is sickening.
                > >>
                > >> Normally when a company uses really cool music for it's advert you think,
                > >> hmm, cool company.
                > >
                > >Really?
                > >You fall for that sort of nonsense?
                > >
                > >I guess advertising is a multi-ka-trillon dollar bizness for a reason:
                > >it works
                > >
                > >people are suckers for attractive images of attractive people listening to
                > >attractive music
                > >regardless of what the company behind the ad really represents
                > >(and as far as Gap goes...let's not go there...)
                > >
                > >Just a reminder:
                > >corporations hire ad agencies
                > >which hire savvy young liberal arts grads
                > >who know a thing or two about music
                > >(and maybe subscribe to hip lists like this one...
                > >for the inside scoop...)
                > >and search out obscure music (which doesn't cost as much as the hits)
                > >especially music with a cult following
                > >and mix it with images to foster a favorable emotional response
                > >which appeals to you in your television trance state
                > >and suggests to you
                > >"hey this company must make some pretty cool clothes
                > > I might buy some next time I go to the mall."
                > >
                > >smash your TV, man
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >+ From: JasonJayStevens
                > >+ mediaArts&research
                > >+ potterBelmarLabs
                > >+ spoke@...
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                > >
                > >TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
                >
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE = mailto:thewire-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                >
                > TheWire List Info Page: http://www.msu.edu/user/forddavi/wirelist.html
              • Jason Jay Stevens
                ... Oh--it was the melancholy bit for which I needed clarification. The rest came relatively easily (relatively being the keyWord). do you (or your pundits)
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 3, 2000
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                  On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, Manuel V. Cabrera Jr. wrote:
                  > want to write an email so long that no one would read it. i hope at least the
                  > comments on melancholy will be somewhat clear. of course, any objections
                  > and/or corrections will be wlecome.

                  Oh--it was the melancholy bit for which I needed clarification.
                  The rest came relatively easily (relatively being the keyWord).

                  do you (or your pundits) imply that capitalism possesses a gravity
                  towards cynicism and melancholy?

                  p.s. we Do live in self-proclaimed "post-modern capitalist" times.
                  however, capitalism by-and-large functions as it did one -two hundred
                  years ago.
                  post-modernism has more to do with the global-awareness and
                  history-awareness that our culture has developed-- and our novel
                  relationship to the global and to history.

                  ...........as I understand it..........


                  + From: JasonJayStevens
                  + mediaArts&research
                  + potterBelmarLabs
                  + spoke@...
                • ZURAW,BRYAN LAWRENCE
                  Folks who liked the Davis bio might be interested to read an essay by Quincy Troupe (Miles co-author) about his impressions of Miles. It appeared in
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 4, 2000
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                    Folks who liked the Davis bio might be interested to read
                    an essay by Quincy Troupe (Miles' co-author) about his
                    impressions of Miles.

                    It appeared in Conjunctions 16 in 1991. It's an entire
                    issue dedicated tomusical topics including an interview
                    with Philip Corner, a piece on jazz by Hayden Carruth,
                    Jackson MacLow , Gearld Early, Nathaniel Mackey, Amiri Baraka,
                    Lukas Foss and lots more. Should be available in university libraries.

                    Bryan
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