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Re: cap10midknight

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  • cap10midknight
    Hello Bravo! ... the ... be ... CHARLIE: Okay, say the universe has a beginning, what makes you think God did it? You mention the example of a knife; it s
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2002
      Hello Bravo!

      BRAVO:
      --- In theteenatheists@y..., "bravopro67" <bravopro67@y...> wrote:
      > You didn't answer my question Charlie. Yes or No. Back to Big Bang
      > Theory.
      >
      > According to the theory, the universe starts from zero volume that
      > mean nothing. The universe starts from finite times and therefore
      the
      > size also finite. Because it has a start, it means that there will
      be
      > an end too.
      >
      > Do you think anything can start from nothing without anything start
      > or create it?
      >
      > Regards

      CHARLIE:
      Okay, say the universe has a beginning, what makes you think God did
      it? You mention the example of a knife; it's purpose is to cut.
      That seems obvious. But what exactly is the entire
      universe "created" for?

      And back to your example of the knife. How many people did it take
      to finally invent the knife? Are they alive still? What
      characteristics about the knife-creator(s) can you reasonably
      deduce? Likewise, how many things did it take to finally create the
      universe? Are they/it still alive? What characteristics about
      the "its" can you reasonably deduce?

      Also, if you believe that something can't come from nothing, then how
      did God come into the picture?


      Cordially,
      Charlie
    • Farhan Noor
      The best proof for the existence of God is our own existence, rather the existence of the universe. If we believe that the universe exists, we must accept
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 1, 2002
        The best proof for the existence of God is our own
        existence, rather the existence of the universe.

        If we believe that the universe exists, we must accept
        basically one of the three positions:

        1. That the universe was created, or
        2. That it was not created, but it has existed on its
        own from the �beginning�, or
        3. That it was neither created, nor has it existed
        from the beginning, but it came into being on its own
        in a process of evolution.

        If we believe 1, that the universe was created, then
        the question �Who created it?� arises. The answer is
        God.

        If we believe 2, that the universe has existed on its
        own from �the beginning�, then we have to accept the
        idea of the existence of anyone on their own from �the
        beginning�. So we cannot rule out the existence of God
        from �the beginning�.

        If we believe 3, that the universe is the result of a
        process of evolution, then we must presume that this
        evolution was a random one and that there was no plan
        or purpose behind this evolution, that is, if we want
        to deny the existence of God. Or we can hold the view
        that the process of evolution was not random and it
        had a plan behind it.

        ......... speaking on knife, why not think it this
        way.. who created the brain, who acquired the
        knowledge of creating a knife? Did man create his own
        brain? So, basically its irrelevant who created the
        knife and are they alive or dead. Secondly, that knife
        can be created by you and me both. Its a laymans job.
        But can anyone in the world, even all of us put
        together, create universe? Its not a laymans job.
        Obviously after that, God is not going to create the
        knife for you.. He gave us the brain to help our
        ownselves to create whatever we like (within limits)
        ofcourse.

        by the way.. for your information.. man will never
        EVER reach SUN, and that is said so in the Quran. And
        even thou we may try and try to do just that, we'll
        never succeed.. coz God hasnt give our brains the
        knowledge it must has to get our asses up there.

        ........ there is a lot to learn from Quran. Even for
        non-muslims and atheists. It has everything listed.
        again, thousands years back, in the land of desert, it
        comes out with the creation of a "cell"... stating it
        is made up of 80% water.. and aint that right..

        and the most funny thing is.. People dont reject
        Quran.. They agree of the miracles.. but they just
        dont want to believe and comply to what being asked of
        you in that Book..

        cheers,
        farhan i.e.




        But what exactly is the entire
        > universe "created" for?
        >
        > And back to your example of the knife. How many
        > people did it take
        > to finally invent the knife? Are they alive still?
        > What
        > characteristics about the knife-creator(s) can you
        > reasonably
        > deduce? Likewise, how many things did it take to
        > finally create the
        > universe? Are they/it still alive? What
        > characteristics about
        > the "its" can you reasonably deduce?
        >
        > Also, if you believe that something can't come from
        > nothing, then how
        > did God come into the picture?
        >
        >
        > Cordially,
        > Charlie
        >
        >


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      • cap10midknight
        Hello Farhan! You seem to miss the point I made earlier: that there is no contradiction in supposing that the universe has always been--that is, without a
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 4, 2002
          Hello Farhan!

          You seem to miss the point I made earlier: that there is no
          contradiction in supposing that the universe has always been--that
          is, without a beginning--and hence no need for any creator(s).

          Also, you never explained what, if anything, the universe was
          designed for. Further, you never explained who or what created
          God. Surely, something as awesome as a god did not come about by
          blind cosmic forces, unless human beings created them themselves. I
          await your response.


          Cordially,
          Charlie
        • cap10midknight
          Hello Farhan! You seem to miss the point I made earlier: that there is no contradiction in supposing that the universe has always been--that is, without a
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 4, 2002
            Hello Farhan!

            You seem to miss the point I made earlier: that there is no
            contradiction in supposing that the universe has always been--that
            is, without a beginning--and hence no need for any creator(s).

            Also, you never explained what, if anything, the universe was
            designed for. Further, you never explained who or what created
            God. Surely, something as awesome as a god did not come about by
            blind cosmic forces, unless human beings created them themselves. I
            await your response.


            Cordially,
            Charlie
          • Farhan Noor
            nothing has an assured answer.. it is derived from very simple basic logic.. some very simple common sense. firstly, i have time and again defined the concept
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 4, 2002
              nothing has an assured answer.. it is derived from
              very simple basic logic.. some very simple common
              sense.

              firstly, i have time and again defined the "concept of
              God" to you and I repeat here again. The eternal One.
              In the shortest of sentences.

              Secondly, coming to logic. Suppose I create
              electricity. Nobody saw me creating electricity,
              right? But I define how it was created and how it
              works. Doesnt that make me the creator? Obviously!
              There never existed a thing called electricity, it was
              I who created it... and i stop her.

              second, If there is a Book called Quran, written a
              thousand years back states that this is how I (GOD)
              created universe. (and yes charlie it is written
              there, bin sayin' this a million times now)... doesnt
              that "GOD" become the creator of the universe?

              Similarly, when in Quran you read how a living cell
              was created, how an embryo is developed in the womb
              and a million other things... it automatically
              establishes two things.

              first of all.. God existed before all these things
              (universe, cell, embryo etc)
              second, he is the creator of all these things.

              now as to the point how God can exist forever. never
              born, never dies. This will require some faith in your
              logic and reasoning. Charlie, when you got Quran in
              your hands.. giving you miracles with scientific
              proofs over proofs, way back 1400 years back... which
              is humanly impossible.. for there were no computers,
              nasa etc... and when that same Book tells you that I
              (God) never was created.. always existed.. why do you
              have to question that?

              And if you do.. saying, still.. you need proof and it
              doesnt make any sense and that it is not possible for
              someone to exist from ever... then that would mean one
              thing and that is nothing can exist from nothing..

              and if that is the case, you have to agree there was a
              beginning point in universe. Now when there was a
              beginning point and since nothing exists from
              nothing.. from where did that beginning come from?
              (please read this para over again.. its very
              important)

              cheers.
              farhan i.e.
              PS: your questions will be best answered by Quran. You
              read National Sciences and all and derive your
              theories from there.. isnt Quran a Book as well? Why a
              second-hand treatment to it?

              __________________________________________________
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            • bravopro67
              Greetings, According to Big Bang Theory, the universe started from zero volume that mean, from nothingness. This is a proof that the universe is created. From
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 5, 2002
                Greetings,

                According to Big Bang Theory, the universe started from zero volume
                that mean, from nothingness. This is a proof that the universe is
                created.

                From the theory too, everything before the bang, is infinite. The
                time is created since the bang. Thus before that, there is no such
                thing defined as time.

                Because the creator of universe existed before the bang, it means
                that he do not has any beginning. If there is somebody who created
                the god, then the question will not be ended, who and who had created
                who. This will be never ending question.

                According to scientist, what happen before the bang, is beyond human
                thinking and unimaginable.

                Regards
                ________________


                --- In theteenatheists@y..., "cap10midknight" <cap10midknight@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hello Farhan!
                >
                > You seem to miss the point I made earlier: that there is no
                > contradiction in supposing that the universe has always been--that
                > is, without a beginning--and hence no need for any creator(s).
                >
                > Also, you never explained what, if anything, the universe was
                > designed for. Further, you never explained who or what created
                > God. Surely, something as awesome as a god did not come about by
                > blind cosmic forces, unless human beings created them themselves.
                I
                > await your response.
                >
                >
                > Cordially,
                > Charlie
              • cap10midknight
                Farhan, Here s your logic in a nutshell: this I know for the Koran tells me so. The Koran, like other religious texts, is filled with stories of creation,
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 10, 2002
                  Farhan,

                  Here's your logic in a nutshell: "this I know for the Koran tells me
                  so." The Koran, like other religious texts, is filled with stories
                  of creation, miracles, and gods--myths, essentially. To treat a myth
                  as literal truth is not only dumb, but it has been a primary cause
                  for untold suffering. Take, for instance, these religious believers
                  who couldn't get any willing virgins in this life, but looked at
                  their religious text for inspiration and justification, and then
                  decided that "hey, if I crash this plane into this building while
                  having faith, I can get 70 virgins in Paradise! How Brilliant!" Why
                  don't you read a logic textbook rather than an elaborate, 1400 year
                  old fairy tale?
                • bravopro67
                  Greetings This is the beauty of believers. They believe in hereafter life. Whatever life on this worldly world, will not be ended just at that point. People
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 11, 2002
                    Greetings

                    This is the beauty of believers. They believe in hereafter life.
                    Whatever life on this worldly world, will not be ended just at that
                    point. People will be rewarded or punished according what they have
                    done on earth.

                    However, there were no proof whatsoever to relate the believers with
                    the incident of crashing the planes. Please ask your government to
                    release 19 people video who were accused with the incident. Everybody
                    who enter the plane, must be captured their video. Please show to the
                    public should they are responsible with the incident.

                    Even with planes in Pentagon and Pitsburgh, there is no picture
                    showing that there were any aeroplane debris on both sides. Where is
                    the proof that there were two planes crashing into the ground not to
                    say there were hijackers of both planes.

                    After almost one year, there is nothing to relate them with your
                    story.

                    Regards

                    ________________________________________________________________
                    In theteenatheists@y..., "cap10midknight" <cap10midknight@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Farhan,
                    >
                    > Here's your logic in a nutshell: "this I know for the Koran tells
                    me
                    > so." The Koran, like other religious texts, is filled with stories
                    > of creation, miracles, and gods--myths, essentially. To treat a
                    myth
                    > as literal truth is not only dumb, but it has been a primary cause
                    > for untold suffering. Take, for instance, these religious
                    believers
                    > who couldn't get any willing virgins in this life, but looked at
                    > their religious text for inspiration and justification, and then
                    > decided that "hey, if I crash this plane into this building while
                    > having faith, I can get 70 virgins in Paradise! How Brilliant!"
                    Why
                    > don't you read a logic textbook rather than an elaborate, 1400 year
                    > old fairy tale?
                  • Farhan Noor
                    this email clearly shows, mr.charlie is breaking up.. this is a work of a person in utter desperation.. trying to prove he s right and all s wrong. i think,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 12, 2002
                      this email clearly shows, mr.charlie is breaking up..
                      this is a work of a person in utter desperation..
                      trying to prove he's right and all's wrong. i think,
                      this is a pathetic effort to save ones skin.

                      i cannot believe, i have to read mr.charlie writing
                      all this crap. it makes absolute no sense at all. and
                      it makes me feel cheap to actually present a case in
                      front of this accusation. it really does..

                      sigh! mr charlie, if any atheist go and committ some
                      act, will i hold mr xyz at fault or mr atheism on the
                      whole, at fault.. gee, this is ridiculous.

                      what the hell is mr. charlie implying here? this is
                      utter stupidity.. i cannot believe, i'm responding to
                      this email.

                      accept it charlie, contradictions are suffocating you.

                      your ignorance shows on your face.

                      cheers,
                      farhan i.e.









                      --- cap10midknight <cap10midknight@...> wrote:
                      > Farhan,
                      >
                      > Here's your logic in a nutshell: "this I know for
                      > the Koran tells me
                      > so." The Koran, like other religious texts, is
                      > filled with stories
                      > of creation, miracles, and gods--myths, essentially.
                      > To treat a myth
                      > as literal truth is not only dumb, but it has been a
                      > primary cause
                      > for untold suffering. Take, for instance, these
                      > religious believers
                      > who couldn't get any willing virgins in this life,
                      > but looked at
                      > their religious text for inspiration and
                      > justification, and then
                      > decided that "hey, if I crash this plane into this
                      > building while
                      > having faith, I can get 70 virgins in Paradise! How
                      > Brilliant!" Why
                      > don't you read a logic textbook rather than an
                      > elaborate, 1400 year
                      > old fairy tale?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
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                    • cap10midknight
                      BRAVO: Faith in an afterlife is to the believer what sand is to an ostrich. If something is too good to be true, then it probably is. In the believer s case,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 16, 2002
                        BRAVO: Faith in an afterlife is to the believer what sand is to an
                        ostrich. If something is too good to be true, then it probably is.
                        In the believer's case, it is neither good nor true. Billions
                        throughout human history have believed in an afterlife and caused
                        untold suffering as a result of this firm conviction. Yet it has
                        never been demonstrated that there is in fact an afterlife. Oh,
                        also, just in case you haven't been informed as to what happened on
                        September 11th, why not get your head out of the sand?

                        FARHAN: You're drowning in your own self-righteousness. And that's
                        only a centimeter deep, if that. Instead of getting self-righteous
                        over nothing, why not accept the fact that these Islamic
                        fundamentalists flew their planes, loaded with innocent passengers,
                        into buildings in the firm conviction that their doing so would get
                        them into Paradise? And get your head out of the sand as well.

                        --Charlie
                      • bravopro67
                        Greetings Faith in an afterlife is a subsequence of believe in God, prophets, The Armageddon (end of the universe) etc........... If you don t believe in God,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 16, 2002
                          Greetings

                          Faith in an afterlife is a subsequence of believe in God, prophets,
                          The Armageddon (end of the universe) etc........... If you don't
                          believe in God, there is no need for you to discuss about believe in
                          hereafterlife etc.

                          You are right when saying there is no physical evidence in afterlife.
                          Afterlife, God etc. is a kind of faith. It is useless for you to
                          discuss about this because you don't have faith in God.

                          I have a faith in God/Creator because I have seen this expanding
                          universe and creatures within including my self. The existence of all
                          of these with so complicated, well organised, systematic, unique etc.
                          is enough evidence for me that it is impossible all of that being
                          existence without a creator or a designer.

                          If I and the rest of human in all times if combine all of their
                          effort and energy can't to create a single mosquito or a fly, how on
                          earth to imagine the whole of universe created by chance. For sure,
                          there is a super mighty intelligence designer without doubt even I
                          can't see him physically.

                          Regards
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          --- In theteenatheists@y..., "cap10midknight" <cap10midknight@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > BRAVO: Faith in an afterlife is to the believer what sand is to an
                          > ostrich. If something is too good to be true, then it probably
                          is.
                          > In the believer's case, it is neither good nor true. Billions
                          > throughout human history have believed in an afterlife and caused
                          > untold suffering as a result of this firm conviction. Yet it has
                          > never been demonstrated that there is in fact an afterlife. Oh,
                          > also, just in case you haven't been informed as to what happened on
                          > September 11th, why not get your head out of the sand?
                          >
                          > FARHAN: You're drowning in your own self-righteousness. And that's
                          > only a centimeter deep, if that. Instead of getting self-righteous
                          > over nothing, why not accept the fact that these Islamic
                          > fundamentalists flew their planes, loaded with innocent passengers,
                          > into buildings in the firm conviction that their doing so would get
                          > them into Paradise? And get your head out of the sand as well.
                          >
                          > --Charlie
                        • Farhan Noor
                          ... Faith is believing something you have not seen-touch-smelt-felt-tasted... you were not there in the plane, or were you? Two things. you put faith in the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 17, 2002
                            > FARHAN: You're drowning in your own
                            > self-righteousness. And that's
                            > only a centimeter deep, if that. Instead of getting
                            > self-righteous
                            > over nothing, why not accept the fact that these
                            > Islamic
                            > fundamentalists flew their planes, loaded with
                            > innocent passengers,
                            > into buildings in the firm conviction that their
                            > doing so would get
                            > them into Paradise? And get your head out of the
                            > sand as well.
                            >
                            > --Charlie

                            Faith is believing something you have not
                            seen-touch-smelt-felt-tasted... you were not there in
                            the plane, or were you? Two things. you put faith in
                            the media telling us that those were islamic
                            fundamentalists blowing up planes and you put faith
                            that the plane was "loaded with innocent
                            passengers"... how come you know it was Islamic
                            fundamentalists and how come you know there were
                            "innocent passengers".... (maybe there was a serial
                            killer in it)..

                            charlie, you put faith in your sick national sciences
                            who one day say we are an evolution from apes and next
                            issue states of a new theory suggesting completly
                            different theory.

                            if i have a faith in afterlife, it has come from
                            something concrete. as in from something which has
                            stood its position a thousand years, without changing
                            a dot from its text. the QURAN. Bravo, states right..
                            since you have no faith in God.. you cannot talk of
                            faith in afterlife and etc.

                            charlie, read the QURAN and know the ISLAM before
                            going on accusing it of crimes it itself renders
                            criminal... and just for your knowledge. Islam tells
                            us Muslims, not to put down a single TREE in act of
                            WAR.. See the level of peace here, and you accuse
                            Islam of terrorism.

                            Learn your abcs before you construct a sentence.

                            cheers,
                            farhan i.e.



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                          • tolerate _00
                            islamic terrorists hide behind the symbol of islam like the national front hide behind the british flag, it gives them the protection they need to create chaos
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 17, 2002
                              islamic terrorists hide behind the symbol of islam like the national front
                              hide behind the british flag, it gives them the protection they need to
                              create chaos in the name of "morality".

                              living in a christian influenced country means i have no right to blame
                              islam for terrorism considering wat christianity has done, that goes for
                              america as well.

                              if you can be bothered to do your research and not listen to right-wing
                              tabloids or media then you would know that osama bin laden officialy hated
                              america because it betrayed him and the taliban, america set up the taliban
                              then screwed it over by abandoning them when the soviets attacked
                              afghanistan, thats why bin laden hates america the fact that he's a muslim
                              just makes it more complicated because he can base his hatred on fundamental
                              islamic beliefs.#

                              and unfortunately when it comes to the taliban u cant blame him because
                              america did betray the taliban, and all americans share the guilt of the
                              attacks through their obvious political apathy. american foreign policy has
                              so much bloodshed on it, ordinary american people should hav expected the
                              consequences sooner than later.

                              yet again im completely off the point sorry.

                              _________________________________________________________________
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                            • cap10midknight
                              Salutations, Allow me to place a drop of reason in a pool of so much confusion. TOLERATE: …the passengers on board the planes which were apparently hijacked
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 17, 2002
                                Salutations,

                                Allow me to place a drop of reason in a pool of so much confusion.


                                TOLERATE:
                                …the passengers on board the planes which were apparently hijacked
                                were no more innocent than me or you. If the plane that was hijacked
                                in Pennsylvania was a lone incident and it was a prison full of
                                convicted killers then would there be so much outrage at it? nobody
                                is innocent and it would show your dedication to your beliefs if you
                                acknowledged that…so you had a terrorist attack big deal so has
                                everyone else.

                                Cap10midknight:
                                To imply that the passengers on September 11th deserved to be
                                murdered, then immediately compare those passengers to convicted
                                criminals, and then trivialize the entire tragic event is both a
                                groundless and perverted insult to the lives and memories of those
                                murdered and their loved ones. If you, even through your
                                INTOLERANT, anti-American bias, cannot see this, it's not America's
                                problem, it's yours.


                                BRAVO:
                                You are right when saying there is no physical evidence in
                                afterlife. Afterlife, God etc. is a kind of faith…It is useless for
                                you to discuss about this because you don't have faith in God.

                                Cap10midknight:
                                A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not
                                prove anything. The reason why an afterlife and god require faith
                                is because there is no reason to believe in such absurd notions;
                                they are simply centuries-old, man-made myths. Further, since you
                                take this myth literally (i.e. believe in god), you cannot talk
                                about anything regarding intelligence.


                                FARHAN:
                                Two things. You put faith in the media telling us that those were
                                Islamic fundamentalists blowing up planes and you put faith that the
                                plane was `loaded with innocent passengers'…how come you know it was
                                Islamic fundamentalists and how come you know there were `innocent
                                passengers'…(maybe there was a serial killer in it)..

                                Cap10midknight:
                                The evidence is clear. They were Islamic. Their identities are
                                known. If they were not fundamentalists, they would not have done
                                it. These facts are not in dispute. The only points of dispute are
                                about those who inspired the hijackers, not who they were.
                              • Farhan Noor
                                What evidence are you talking about Charlie? The evidence made public by the Americans, right? The names, the photos and every single detail.. right? And you
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 18, 2002
                                  What evidence are you talking about Charlie? The
                                  evidence made public by the Americans, right? The
                                  names, the photos and every single detail.. right? And
                                  you put your faith in it. On what basis, just because
                                  it makes "logic"?.. right?

                                  Then on what basis do you reject Quran? When 1400
                                  years back it said how an embryo is developed in a
                                  womb, or how universe was created, or that every
                                  living thing is made up of water... doesnt it all make
                                  one absolute beginners logic, that by saying all
                                  this.. 1400 years back (with no American technology
                                  and all).. the writer must be beyond "Human
                                  Intelligence".. and that He may only be "God?"

                                  Now you dont put your faith in that. Americans hand
                                  you out the photos and names of Arabs, calling them
                                  terrorists and you put your faith in that. Then again,
                                  what about Quran? Why not Quran? Why not faith in
                                  Quran?

                                  Name one thing in Quran which is proven false (even by
                                  America!) Not one thing contradicts.. While the Sept
                                  11 theories take U-turns every single news bulletin.
                                  Yet you put your faith in it, that the terrorists were
                                  Arabs. What makes you so absolute sure?

                                  This is not a political debate, tolerate. Its about
                                  accepting theres a God. And believing in Faith.
                                  Charlie seems to contradict himself in every email he
                                  writes. He puts faith in National Sciences and in
                                  American Theory of Sept 11, yet he does not put faith
                                  in Quran (miracles of which are proven time &
                                  again)... and compares faith which ostrich's head in
                                  sand.

                                  we believe in what we want to believe in. Not in
                                  righteousness or falsehood. Not that which makes
                                  sense, but can be turned around to make sense. That is
                                  why charlie ends up believing in National Sciences and
                                  not in Quran, yet agreeable by all.. Quran is absolute
                                  Authentic.

                                  Tolerate.. you an atheist? Do you believe in Quran?

                                  When one put a faith in something, theres no room for
                                  conditions. Charlie, puts his faith in Americans fact
                                  that OBL is the mastermind behind Sept 11. Bravo, in
                                  his last email mentioned that there is no plane debris
                                  at pentagon even..(proven).. so lets just wait and let
                                  the time do all the talking...

                                  And before I end, dont forget.. 1400 years and yet
                                  time has laid not one single black dot on Quran.

                                  �'ve said it time and again.. but this time its for
                                  tolerate... If you change one word from Quran, the
                                  entire text will change... for it is bounded with a
                                  mathematical lock. Again, 1400 years back...

                                  Yet there are people, knowing this and shown on their
                                  faces... refuse to accept Islam.

                                  How unfortunate.
                                  KH,
                                  Farhan i.e.









                                  > FARHAN:
                                  > Two things. You put faith in the media telling us
                                  > that those were
                                  > Islamic fundamentalists blowing up planes and you
                                  > put faith that the
                                  > plane was `loaded with innocent passengers'�how come
                                  > you know it was
                                  > Islamic fundamentalists and how come you know there
                                  > were `innocent
                                  > passengers'�(maybe there was a serial killer in
                                  > it)..
                                  >
                                  > Cap10midknight:
                                  > The evidence is clear. They were Islamic. Their
                                  > identities are
                                  > known. If they were not fundamentalists, they would
                                  > not have done
                                  > it. These facts are not in dispute. The only
                                  > points of dispute are
                                  > about those who inspired the hijackers, not who they
                                  > were.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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