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Re:RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?

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  • Tommy Foster
    One thing I m picking up on my re-reads of his cyberspace books this time around are that, after Neuromancer, his characters spend less and less time in
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 14 6:57 AM
      One thing I'm picking up on my re-reads of his cyberspace books this time around are that, after Neuromancer, his characters spend less and less time in cyberspace while on stage. In Count Zero, we get some activity at the very beginning, and a bit more again at the end. In Mona Lisa Overdrive, there's virtually nothing until near the very end of the book.

      My memory of the Bridge trilogy is a bit hazy, but if I'm rembering correctly, the most net activity in those books takes place in the second book, Idoru.

      >From: "the lazarus corporation" <lazarus@...>
      >To: <thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
      >Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:21:31 +0100
      >
      >
      >Hi,
      >
      >My first post, and I think it might be a controversial one...
      >
      >I really like Pattern Recognition.
      >
      >I also really like his 3(and a bit) Sprawl books and the 3 Virtual Light
      >series books. I just like them in different ways.
      >
      >As Michael said, Pattern Recognition isn't cyberpunk - it's contemporary
      >fiction written in the style of cyberpunk, and with all the iconography of
      >cyberpunk migrated "back" to the present day. It's like viewing
      >contemporary society as if it were the future, and it all ties in with what
      >Gibson once said about the future already being here, but just not being
      >evenly distributed.
      >
      >In many ways, PR is a contemporary re-write of one of the story-arcs from
      >Count Zero - a female freelancer is given a seemingly limitless credit
      >account by a very rich patron and told to search out the creator of some
      >mysterious anonymous artwork, but PR seems (to me) less contrived than Count
      >Zero.
      >
      >Don't misunderstand me - I love Count Zero, but when writing about
      >contemporary society, any author has to be more convicing than when writing
      >SF - readers are far less forgiving of deux ex machina endings and more
      >likely to cry out "that's not right - that would never happen" when the
      >setting is a world you're personally familiar with. And if Gibson returns
      >to writing SF, then I think that this discipline can only enhance the
      >quality of his writing.
      >
      >Cheers
      >
      >Paul
      >the lazarus corporation - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk
      >
      > a.. discussion forum - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/forum
      > b.. lazarus books - http://books.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/
      > c.. rss news feed - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/feed.php
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: M. Houmann [mailto:houmann@...]
      > Sent: 14 October 2004 16:59
      > To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
      >
      >
      > That would be my point exactly... I mean, Gibson has over the course of
      > his first six novels been less and less cyberpunkish... I would go so
      > far as to say that PR actually ISN'T cyberpunk (more along the lines of
      > postmodern mainstream fiction), but has motives and themes in common
      > with his other works...
      >
      > And Neuromancer a strong 9? I don't disagree... what's a 10 then?
      > According to what I've read sofar, critics more or less agree that
      > Neuromancer would be a clean 10...
      >
      > Nothing on the chronological order of the nocels in Burning Chrome?
      > Hmm... guess I have to find that elsewhere..
      >
      > /Michael
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Joel Zimba [mailto:jzimba@...]
      > Sent: 14. oktober 2004 17:16
      > To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
      >
      >
      > I'd say that's pretty high when most of the qualities of cyberpunk don't
      > seem to be present.
      >
      > The most obvious technology would be in the internet. ... It could
      > easily
      > be a contemporary story of today... Oh wait that's what it was.
      >
      > So, potentially, extremely very near future sci-fi... Maybe...
      >
      > I'd think fof it as high-tech thriller/mystery...
      >
      > Which ain't CP
      >
      > But since it was written by WG, maybe a .1 rather then a 0...?
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:11 AM
      > To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
      >
      >
      > PR = a low 5 or a high 4
      > Neuromancer? A strong 9!

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    • M. Houmann
      Hi all... I m currently researching Gibsons collection of short stories Burning Chrome ... do any of you have an idea of the chronological order in which
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 14 7:00 AM
        Hi all...

        I'm currently researching Gibsons collection of short stories "Burning
        Chrome"... do any of you have an idea of the chronological order in
        which Gibson wrote them? I know that Fragments of a Hologram Rose was
        the first, but other than that, I'm kinda lost...

        Thanks,
        Michael (Denmark)

        PS: On a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being UltraCyberpunk, how would you
        rate Pattern Recognition? Neuromancer?
      • Petrol
        PR = a low 5 or a high 4 Neuromancer? A strong 9!
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 14 7:10 AM
          PR = a low 5 or a high 4
          Neuromancer? A strong 9!
        • Joel Zimba
          I d say that s pretty high when most of the qualities of cyberpunk don t seem to be present. The most obvious technology would be in the internet. ... It
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 14 8:15 AM
            I'd say that's pretty high when most of the qualities of cyberpunk don't
            seem to be present.

            The most obvious technology would be in the internet. ... It could easily
            be a contemporary story of today... Oh wait that's what it was.

            So, potentially, extremely very near future sci-fi... Maybe...

            I'd think fof it as high-tech thriller/mystery...

            Which ain't CP

            But since it was written by WG, maybe a .1 rather then a 0...?



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
            Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:11 AM
            To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


            PR = a low 5 or a high 4
            Neuromancer? A strong 9!


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          • M. Houmann
            That would be my point exactly... I mean, Gibson has over the course of his first six novels been less and less cyberpunkish... I would go so far as to say
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 14 8:58 AM
              That would be my point exactly... I mean, Gibson has over the course of
              his first six novels been less and less cyberpunkish... I would go so
              far as to say that PR actually ISN'T cyberpunk (more along the lines of
              postmodern mainstream fiction), but has motives and themes in common
              with his other works...

              And Neuromancer a strong 9? I don't disagree... what's a 10 then?
              According to what I've read sofar, critics more or less agree that
              Neuromancer would be a clean 10...

              Nothing on the chronological order of the nocels in Burning Chrome?
              Hmm... guess I have to find that elsewhere..

              /Michael

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Joel Zimba [mailto:jzimba@...]
              Sent: 14. oktober 2004 17:16
              To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


              I'd say that's pretty high when most of the qualities of cyberpunk don't
              seem to be present.

              The most obvious technology would be in the internet. ... It could
              easily
              be a contemporary story of today... Oh wait that's what it was.

              So, potentially, extremely very near future sci-fi... Maybe...

              I'd think fof it as high-tech thriller/mystery...

              Which ain't CP

              But since it was written by WG, maybe a .1 rather then a 0...?



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
              Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:11 AM
              To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


              PR = a low 5 or a high 4
              Neuromancer? A strong 9!


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            • the lazarus corporation
              Hi, My first post, and I think it might be a controversial one... I really like Pattern Recognition. I also really like his 3(and a bit) Sprawl books and the 3
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 14 9:21 AM
                Hi,

                My first post, and I think it might be a controversial one...

                I really like Pattern Recognition.

                I also really like his 3(and a bit) Sprawl books and the 3 Virtual Light
                series books. I just like them in different ways.

                As Michael said, Pattern Recognition isn't cyberpunk - it's contemporary
                fiction written in the style of cyberpunk, and with all the iconography of
                cyberpunk migrated "back" to the present day. It's like viewing
                contemporary society as if it were the future, and it all ties in with what
                Gibson once said about the future already being here, but just not being
                evenly distributed.

                In many ways, PR is a contemporary re-write of one of the story-arcs from
                Count Zero - a female freelancer is given a seemingly limitless credit
                account by a very rich patron and told to search out the creator of some
                mysterious anonymous artwork, but PR seems (to me) less contrived than Count
                Zero.

                Don't misunderstand me - I love Count Zero, but when writing about
                contemporary society, any author has to be more convicing than when writing
                SF - readers are far less forgiving of deux ex machina endings and more
                likely to cry out "that's not right - that would never happen" when the
                setting is a world you're personally familiar with. And if Gibson returns
                to writing SF, then I think that this discipline can only enhance the
                quality of his writing.

                Cheers

                Paul
                the lazarus corporation - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk

                a.. discussion forum - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/forum
                b.. lazarus books - http://books.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/
                c.. rss news feed - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/feed.php
                -----Original Message-----
                From: M. Houmann [mailto:houmann@...]
                Sent: 14 October 2004 16:59
                To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


                That would be my point exactly... I mean, Gibson has over the course of
                his first six novels been less and less cyberpunkish... I would go so
                far as to say that PR actually ISN'T cyberpunk (more along the lines of
                postmodern mainstream fiction), but has motives and themes in common
                with his other works...

                And Neuromancer a strong 9? I don't disagree... what's a 10 then?
                According to what I've read sofar, critics more or less agree that
                Neuromancer would be a clean 10...

                Nothing on the chronological order of the nocels in Burning Chrome?
                Hmm... guess I have to find that elsewhere..

                /Michael

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Joel Zimba [mailto:jzimba@...]
                Sent: 14. oktober 2004 17:16
                To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


                I'd say that's pretty high when most of the qualities of cyberpunk don't
                seem to be present.

                The most obvious technology would be in the internet. ... It could
                easily
                be a contemporary story of today... Oh wait that's what it was.

                So, potentially, extremely very near future sci-fi... Maybe...

                I'd think fof it as high-tech thriller/mystery...

                Which ain't CP

                But since it was written by WG, maybe a .1 rather then a 0...?



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
                Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:11 AM
                To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


                PR = a low 5 or a high 4
                Neuromancer? A strong 9!




                Yahoo! Groups Links







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              • Dexter K. Flowers
                Check out this page: William Gibson--Bibliography Summary Fragments was first published in 1984, but it
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 14 10:03 AM
                  Check out this page:

                  William Gibson--Bibliography Summary
                  <http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?William_Gibson>

                  "Fragments" was first published in 1984, but it wasn't the first.
                  Gibson's first stories were published in 1981, several (if I'm not
                  mistaken) in Omni magazine.

                  If you haven't come across it yet, Lance Olsen's site has tons of stuff
                  on Gibson in general and BURNING CHROME in particular. Here's the link:

                  Cafe Zeitgeist <http://www.cafezeitgeist.com/burningchrome.html>

                  Now, as far as the scale, I agree with whoever gave NEUROMANCER a 9. For
                  me, COUNT ZERO would get the 10. It's G's best work stylistically,
                  coming closer to a true voice of the future than the neo-noir in
                  NEUROMANCER. But CZ gets my 10 because it's much more disorienting and
                  strange than NEUROMANCER. As far as PR, 0. It's not cyberpunk at all,
                  but something other, as if our "present" has side-stepped a cyberpunk
                  "future" altogether and left it looking quaint, almost nostalgic by
                  comparison.

                  And speaking of what could come after cyberpunk, has anyone read Richard
                  Morgan's ALTERED CARBON, or Simon Logan's I-O? Here are some links:

                  Richard Morgan <http://www.richardkmorgan.com/>
                  Simon Logan <http://www.coldandalone.com/intro.asp>

                  If Gibson has an heir at all it might be one of these guys.

                  Dexter

                  M. Houmann wrote:

                  > Hi all...
                  >
                  > I'm currently researching Gibsons collection of short stories "Burning
                  > Chrome"... do any of you have an idea of the chronological order in
                  > which Gibson wrote them? I know that Fragments of a Hologram Rose was
                  > the first, but other than that, I'm kinda lost...
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Michael (Denmark)
                  >
                  > PS: On a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being UltraCyberpunk, how would you
                  > rate Pattern Recognition? Neuromancer?
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Petrol
                  Idoru a Bridge Trilogy book? Think I ll have to re-read it for the 4928th time, since I don t recall it being as such. Could be wrong though... usually am. --
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 14 1:04 PM
                    Idoru a Bridge Trilogy book?
                    Think I'll have to re-read it for the 4928th time, since I don't recall
                    it being as such. Could be wrong though... usually am.

                    --

                    Tommy Foster wrote:
                    >
                    > One thing I'm picking up on my re-reads of his cyberspace books this time around are that, after Neuromancer, his characters spend less and less time in cyberspace while on stage. In Count Zero, we get some activity at the very beginning, and a bit more again at the end. In Mona Lisa Overdrive, there's virtually nothing until near the very end of the book.
                    >
                    > My memory of the Bridge trilogy is a bit hazy, but if I'm rembering correctly, the most net activity in those books takes place in the second book, Idoru.
                  • Tommy Foster
                    It is indeed a wonderful site, and I ve enjoyed it for many years now. I started calling that second trilogy the bridge trilogy pretty much because that s
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 14 11:49 PM
                      It is indeed a wonderful site, and I've enjoyed it for many years now. I started calling that second trilogy the 'bridge' trilogy pretty much because that's how it is referred to on that site. Gibson's never really put a name to either trilogy of books, so I was willing to go along with 'cyberspace trilogy' and 'bridge trilogy', though it could be anything.


                      >From: "M. Houmann" <houmann@...>
                      >To: <thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: RE: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
                      >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:36:07 +0200
                      >
                      >
                      >Well.. It would have to be, sitting in between Virtual Light and All
                      >Tomorrow's Parties. But you're right... not much bridge in it, since it
                      >takes places primarily in Tokyo and London, but the characters carry
                      >over to ATP, same as with VL.
                      >
                      >And with regards to G's cyberspace-books, then you're right again...
                      >less and less cyberspace (the Bridge-trilogy has even got a fully
                      >functional cyberspace, you have to put on glasses or helmets - almost
                      >like today...), but on the other hand, more and more characterization.
                      >It's like the humanity takes over from technology - and hence the
                      >development which ended in PR...
                      >
                      >Internet = cyberspace? I guess so.. it seems to be the only one we got..
                      >:)
                      >
                      >Oh .. and by the way, I found a chronological order of the contents of
                      >Burning Chrome.. German fansite in English (you probably know it) and
                      >it's really, REALLY, good... here it is:
                      >http://www.antonraubenweiss.com/gibson/index.html I recommend visiting
                      >it to read among other things, Neuromancer the Graphic Novel... kinda
                      >cool to see Case and the others...
                      >
                      >/Michael
                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
                      >Sent: 14. oktober 2004 22:05
                      >To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?
                      >
                      >
                      >Idoru a Bridge Trilogy book?
                      >Think I'll have to re-read it for the 4928th time, since I don't recall
                      >it being as such. Could be wrong though... usually am.
                      >
                      >--
                      >
                      >Tommy Foster wrote:
                      >>
                      >> One thing I'm picking up on my re-reads of his cyberspace books this
                      >time around are that, after Neuromancer, his characters spend less and
                      >less time in cyberspace while on stage. In Count Zero, we get some
                      >activity at the very beginning, and a bit more again at the end. In
                      >Mona Lisa Overdrive, there's virtually nothing until near the very end
                      >of the book.
                      >>
                      >> My memory of the Bridge trilogy is a bit hazy, but if I'm rembering
                      >correctly, the most net activity in those books takes place in the
                      >second book, Idoru.

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • M. Houmann
                      Well.. It would have to be, sitting in between Virtual Light and All Tomorrow s Parties. But you re right... not much bridge in it, since it takes places
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 15 12:36 AM
                        Well.. It would have to be, sitting in between Virtual Light and All
                        Tomorrow's Parties. But you're right... not much bridge in it, since it
                        takes places primarily in Tokyo and London, but the characters carry
                        over to ATP, same as with VL.

                        And with regards to G's cyberspace-books, then you're right again...
                        less and less cyberspace (the Bridge-trilogy has even got a fully
                        functional cyberspace, you have to put on glasses or helmets - almost
                        like today...), but on the other hand, more and more characterization.
                        It's like the humanity takes over from technology - and hence the
                        development which ended in PR...

                        Internet = cyberspace? I guess so.. it seems to be the only one we got..
                        :)

                        Oh .. and by the way, I found a chronological order of the contents of
                        Burning Chrome.. German fansite in English (you probably know it) and
                        it's really, REALLY, good... here it is:
                        http://www.antonraubenweiss.com/gibson/index.html I recommend visiting
                        it to read among other things, Neuromancer the Graphic Novel... kinda
                        cool to see Case and the others...

                        /Michael

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Petrol [mailto:foogu@...]
                        Sent: 14. oktober 2004 22:05
                        To: thesprawlofwilliamgibson@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [The Sprawl of William Gibson] Burning Chrome?


                        Idoru a Bridge Trilogy book?
                        Think I'll have to re-read it for the 4928th time, since I don't recall
                        it being as such. Could be wrong though... usually am.

                        --

                        Tommy Foster wrote:
                        >
                        > One thing I'm picking up on my re-reads of his cyberspace books this
                        time around are that, after Neuromancer, his characters spend less and
                        less time in cyberspace while on stage. In Count Zero, we get some
                        activity at the very beginning, and a bit more again at the end. In
                        Mona Lisa Overdrive, there's virtually nothing until near the very end
                        of the book.
                        >
                        > My memory of the Bridge trilogy is a bit hazy, but if I'm rembering
                        correctly, the most net activity in those books takes place in the
                        second book, Idoru.




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