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Re: Man O War availability in the UK

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  • leutenantbrittan
    Well I recieved the reply from GW mail order here in the UK. Heres what they said Hi, thanks for your email. We do not stock the Man O War range of ship
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2003
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      Well I recieved the reply from GW mail order here in the UK.
      Heres what they said "Hi, thanks for your email.
      We do not stock the Man O' War range of ship miniatures, but if
      US mail
      order still have some, you will be able to order from them. We do
      not have
      any copies of the old rules available or on pdf, but you may be
      able to find
      a copy of the rulebook on Ebay, or a similar website, or possibley
      in you
      local independant games stockist.
      Sorry we could not be of more help. "

      So it looks like there are no plans to even put the game on the
      site as apdf file (ala bloodbowl) But what would it cost to buy out
      the rights to Man o War and its supplements (like they did with
      warhammer roleplay) Lots of money no doubt but would it be
      worth finding out / setting up a fund etc? If enough people were
      interested it may work! And wouldnt it be cool to have the game
      re-released.
    • sineater40k
      ... I agree it would be cool to obtain the rights, it s not going to happen but it would be cool. They did allow the rpg to be reprinted but it is more
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2003
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        --- In theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com, "leutenantbrittan"
        <Richard.Goblin@b...> wrote:
        > site as apdf file (ala bloodbowl) But what would it cost to buy out
        > the rights to Man o War and its supplements (like they did with

        I agree it would be cool to obtain the rights, it's not going to
        happen but it would be cool.

        They did allow the rpg to be reprinted but it is more freestanding
        than MOW is. The problem with MOW is that it is solidly based in the
        warhammer world and i doubt they would be willing to let that slip.
        Besides even IF they some how let you license the rights they would
        keep ownership. If MOW had a come back they would undoubtably yank
        the license back and reprint it after you spent tons of money building
        it up again.

        No, what we honestly need is to find a mini designer who could make
        ships in the same scale. Rewrite the rules ourselves leaving out GW
        references. GW may indeed own copyright on words like gobo, chaos,
        vampire counts, etc. but they could never own copyright on goblins,
        orc, elves, etc.

        Those words are a part of our litature and fantasy worlds and thus
        safe from the trynany of GW :)

        IF the rules were rewrote by the FANS and not a money hungery company
        then you are more apted to get complete rules without tons of bugs.
        These days everyone seems to be publishing in PDF anyway, so my ideal
        is really not so far fetched. Once you have the rules there is nothing
        stopping you from playing in a warhammer world per say :)

        I would love to see the group pull together and do a rewrite. If not
        the entire group we could choose a small number of ourselves and they
        could do the actual work while everyone else go to throw ideals at them.

        Having worked for a game company in the late 80's early 90's i can
        tell you that your hardest sell will be to the fans. Thats the
        biggest problem with GW. You have a number of people who flat out hate
        GW, others who just can't afford to get into their games, and with
        current events still more that will never even see their product. But
        if make a broader spectrum game that is either free or reasonably
        priced you will vastly improve your odds. Rules are not even a issue,
        but the minis are! We would have to find someone who can design them
        to scale, then mass produce them to sell. Your ships would all have
        to be cast in white metal, plastic would just be to costly at this
        level. GW can get away with plastic because they are huge but the
        small fish have to be content with pewter. Molds for plastic injection
        can cost in the 100,000 range.

        Anyone game for a rewrite....oops a revision? Quick someone call Tim
        Burton :)
      • leutenantbrittan
        ... could make ... out GW ... chaos, ... goblins, ... thus ... hungery company ... bugs. ... so my ideal ... nothing ... not ... and they ... at them. ... can
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2003
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          > No, what we honestly need is to find a mini designer who
          could make
          > ships in the same scale. Rewrite the rules ourselves leaving
          out GW
          > references. GW may indeed own copyright on words like gobo,
          chaos,
          > vampire counts, etc. but they could never own copyright on
          goblins,
          > orc, elves, etc.
          >
          > Those words are a part of our litature and fantasy worlds and
          thus
          > safe from the trynany of GW :)
          >
          > IF the rules were rewrote by the FANS and not a money
          hungery company
          > then you are more apted to get complete rules without tons of
          bugs.
          > These days everyone seems to be publishing in PDF anyway,
          so my ideal
          > is really not so far fetched. Once you have the rules there is
          nothing
          > stopping you from playing in a warhammer world per say :)
          >
          > I would love to see the group pull together and do a rewrite. If
          not
          > the entire group we could choose a small number of ourselves
          and they
          > could do the actual work while everyone else go to throw ideals
          at them.
          >
          > Having worked for a game company in the late 80's early 90's i
          can
          > tell you that your hardest sell will be to the fans. Thats the
          > biggest problem with GW. You have a number of people who
          flat out hate
          > GW, others who just can't afford to get into their games, and
          with
          > current events still more that will never even see their product.
          But
          > if make a broader spectrum game that is either free or
          reasonably
          > priced you will vastly improve your odds. Rules are not even a
          issue,
          > but the minis are! We would have to find someone who can
          design them
          > to scale, then mass produce them to sell. Your ships would all
          have
          > to be cast in white metal, plastic would just be to costly at this
          > level. GW can get away with plastic because they are huge but
          the
          > small fish have to be content with pewter. Molds for plastic
          injection
          > can cost in the 100,000 range.
          >
          > Anyone game for a rewrite....oops a revision? Quick someone
          call Tim
          > Burton :)

          Sounds like a good idea for the long term but for the present
          getting ships to use would be great. There are lots of
          manufacturers out there who produce great ships usable for
          empire etc but none for orks/ chaos / elves and so on. Could
          someone go about releasing miniatures for these races and
          rename them as evil fleet, orc/ goblin, or generic elvish and evil
          elves?
          Would it be worth contacting a few companies about such a
          possibility. Brigade models of the UK would be a good starting
          place as they produce miniatures for aeronef by Wessex games
          (who also have a fantasy naval system using 1/1200 scale
          vessels!) See their websites at brigademodels.co.uk and
          http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.homepage.html. Be
          warned the naval game is rumoured to be poor but Brigade have
          some excellent minis at very reasonable prices!
        • m_carss
          ... hi could you post that link again because that one isnt correct. ill mention the idea of making some similar ships to my friend who does casting, how big
          Message 4 of 19 , May 3, 2003
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            > Sounds like a good idea for the long term but for the present
            > getting ships to use would be great. There are lots of
            > manufacturers out there who produce great ships usable for
            > empire etc but none for orks/ chaos / elves and so on. Could
            > someone go about releasing miniatures for these races and
            > rename them as evil fleet, orc/ goblin, or generic elvish and evil
            > elves?
            > Would it be worth contacting a few companies about such a
            > possibility. Brigade models of the UK would be a good starting
            > place as they produce miniatures for aeronef by Wessex games
            > (who also have a fantasy naval system using 1/1200 scale
            > vessels!) See their websites at brigademodels.co.uk and
            > http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.homepage.html. Be
            > warned the naval game is rumoured to be poor but Brigade have
            > some excellent minis at very reasonable prices!


            hi
            could you post that link again because that one isnt correct.

            ill mention the idea of making some similar ships to my friend who
            does casting, how big would the market be though? any ideas?

            Michael
          • leutenantbrittan
            ... who ... ideas? ... AARGH! Sorry about that!! heres the correct address http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.homepage.html Note the only thing wrong
            Message 5 of 19 , May 3, 2003
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              > hi
              > could you post that link again because that one isnt correct.
              >
              > ill mention the idea of making some similar ships to my friend
              who
              > does casting, how big would the market be though? any
              ideas?
              >
              > Michael

              AARGH!

              Sorry about that!! heres the correct address

              http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.homepage.html

              Note the only thing wrong was the full stop at the end of the link!
              But anyway I think that there could be quite a market for fantasy
              naval miniatures as think how many people play naval
              wargaming, a fantasy range would be perfect for them to
              encourage present warhammer players to try something
              different but still recognisable. Also the game aeronef seems to
              have captured peoples imaginations with the idea of victorian
              aerial battleships, and isnt the idea of huge fleets of fantasy
              vessels just as cool, if not cooler?
              Also with the widespread use of the internet these days it would
              have a larger fan base than the original man o war. With some
              more quality web pages with ideas, painted minis, projects,
              conversions and fluff like this one I wouldnt be surprised if there
              was a real boost in fantasy naval warfare!! An example is the
              miniatures page which is where I first found out about this site.
              Some topics/ links and advertisements on wargamers sites
              such as this could well get people interested.
              I would be interested to hear everynes views on this.
            • snooty01uk
              The warmaster naval game was mentioned in the UK white dwarf last year in the bulet points part of the news section so they have known for some time as for the
              Message 6 of 19 , May 7, 2003
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                The warmaster naval game was mentioned in the UK white dwarf last
                year in the bulet points part of the news section so they have known
                for some time as for the minis and rules in the UK I had Heard that
                all the moulds were destroyed when they moved headquarters to lenton
                as they only had limited room and it was the only game that was out
                of print at the time. the US must still have the moulds but they seem
                to be two seperate companies as you would think they could get the
                moulds over here to copy but no, the fools.
                cheers
                Chris
              • jpattern@aol.com
                ... GW began referring to a new version of MOW in a larger scale (I think Epic-scale was mentioned at least once) just a year or two after they originally
                Message 7 of 19 , May 8, 2003
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                  Chris wrote:

                  > The Warmaster naval game was mentioned in the UK white dwarf last
                  > year in the bullet points part of the news section so they have known
                  > for some time.

                  GW began referring to a new version of MOW "in a larger scale" (I think
                  Epic-scale was mentioned at least once) just a year or two after they
                  originally discontinued MOW. When was that, '94 or '95?

                  Then, just about as soon as Warmaster was announced a couple years back, they
                  started referring to a Warmaster-scale version of MOW, with significant
                  changes to background, mechanics, and rules. I wouldn't be surprised to find
                  that the reason they created the Warmaster-scale Empire ship and Dwarf
                  airships was at least in part to gauge the market.

                  More recently, they've made references to "darkening" the game, similar to
                  what's happened in Warhammer. Compare sculpts, Army books, paint schemes, and
                  background from the current edition with earlier editions: much darker,
                  (somewhat) more realistic, much less humor. One of the statements (from Rick?
                  Jervis?) was along the lines of, "A Skaven fleet in MOW? What were we
                  thinking?" And lo, there was much gnashing of incisors among Skaven Admirals
                  everywhere.

                  So, yes, GW has been bouncing around the idea of a new version of MOW for
                  almost a decade now.

                  Whereas most of us in this group, as well as most of the gaming community who
                  ever played MOW, would love to see a bound reprint of the original 3 MOW
                  rulebooks, incorporating the various White Dwarf and Journal articles,
                  Q-and-A's, and rules clarifications. Something like the Necromunda bound book
                  of a few years back. Shoot, they could hire a summer intern or co-op to do
                  that much. As to why they haven't done this yet, and aren't likely to in the
                  future, the most common theory on the Net is that when GW (eventually)
                  releases its new naval wargame, they don't want a bunch of copies of MOW
                  floating around to dilute the market for the new game.

                  > The US must still have the moulds but they seem
                  > to be two separate companies as you would think they could get the
                  > moulds over here to copy but no, the fools.

                  I've heard that GWUS has a set of the MOW molds, but no master minis. That's
                  why when a mold wears out, such as the Corsairs mold, they can't create a new
                  mold; they have no master minis to work from. Now, they could create a mold
                  from an existing mini, but for some reason they haven't done so. Maybe GWUK
                  won't let them; maybe they're concerned about the lack of quality of a
                  copy-of-a-copy; maybe they simply can't spare the mold-makers.

                  The same reasoning applies to why GWUK hasn't requested a new set of MOW
                  molds from GWUS: they could, but for some reason they don't want to. And,
                  again, the most common theory I've seen is that GW doesn't want a ready
                  supply of the older ships to be available when they release their new naval
                  game. If MOW is (roughly) 2mm-scale, and Warmaster is 10mm-scale, all you'd
                  have to do is use the new rules and the old MOW ships, and scale distances by
                  1/5. And I guarantee that the new ships will be a *lot* more expensive than
                  the old ships, even factoring in Ebay prices. The current Empire ship with
                  just one sail, equivalent to a MOW Wargalley, is $42US; imagine the cost of
                  even *one* small fleet of, say, 10 ships! Now, granted, there will probably
                  be some plastic ships released, which will reduce the cost somewhat, but I
                  still suspect that the larger ships, as well as all the ships for the more
                  "unusual" fleets, will be released in resin by Forge World.

                  I think the lesson in all of this is, if you ever want to play MOW, now or in
                  the future, buy all the ships you think you'll ever need from GWUS (whole
                  ships and parts for conversions) before all the molds are worn out and
                  retired, because when they're gone, they're probably gone for good. And if
                  you think Ebay prices for the ships are bad now, wait until the GWUS source
                  is gone.

                  Disclaimer: Almost all of the conclusions drawn in this post are based on
                  years of second- and thirdhand rumors, plus a handful of direct quotes from
                  GW. So take it all with a grain of salt. And, yes, I'd love for Andy Chambers
                  or someone else at GW who belongs to this group to post and clarify any
                  mistakes I've made. :)

                  Jeff Moore
                  jpattern@...


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • manowarplayer
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 10, 2003
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                    <<<sineater40k" Wrote>>> They did allow the rpg to be reprinted but it
                    is more freestanding than MOW is. The problem with MOW is that it is
                    solidly based in the warhammer world and i doubt they would be willing
                    to let that slip. Besides even IF they some how let you license the
                    rights they would keep ownership. If MOW had a come back they would
                    undoubtably yank the license back and reprint it after you spent tons
                    of money building it up again.>>>

                    Exactly. Unless someone had a TON of money and could negotiate some
                    long term rights to the game, it doesnt make sense to try and do any
                    kind of of large scale fan based resurection ourselves. We need to
                    either keep helping each other find ships/ rules ect... or start
                    pestering GW to let us create a .pdf file of the rules and host it
                    here with proper credit/links to GW ect...

                    <<<No, what we honestly need is to find a mini designer who could make
                    ships in the same scale. Rewrite the rules ourselves leaving out GW
                    references. GW may indeed own copyright on words like gobo, chaos,
                    vampire counts, etc. but they could never own copyright on goblins,
                    orc, elves, etc.>>>

                    A great idea though extremely ambitious. I have often thought of
                    creating my own Fantasy based naval game using some concepts from both
                    MOW and Avalon Hill's old Wooden Ships and Iron Men. It's probably a
                    pipe dream, but still, it has motivated me on several occasions to
                    finish other MOW based projects I had been working on. I did a "not so
                    official" Newsletter for MOW that I printed and put out at a local
                    gaming convention about 4 years ago and believe it or not GW got wind
                    of it and had their legal department kindly ask me to stop as I was
                    using their MOW logo without permission. The most amazing thing was I
                    had only printed 150 copies and distributed them by hand to people who
                    stopped by the game I was running!

                    <<< I would love to see the group pull together and do a rewrite. If
                    not the entire group we could choose a small number of ourselves and
                    they could do the actual work while everyone else go to throw ideals
                    at them. >>>

                    Well, we have collaborated on some of the ship designs in here and it
                    worked out fine. The process was usually along the lines of: someone
                    posts an idea for a ship, people comment and make suggestions, the
                    designer takes them into consideration and makes changes if he agreed
                    with the suggestions and then reposted the new version. Rules would
                    be much more difficult I fear. Even in some of the house rules we came
                    up with, our group would debate them for near eternity and we still
                    have some we like and some we dont.


                    <<< We would have to find someone who can design them to scale, then
                    mass produce them to sell. Your ships would all have to be cast in
                    white metal, plastic would just be to costly at this level. GW can get
                    away with plastic because they are huge but the small fish have to be
                    content with pewter. Molds for plastic injection can cost in the
                    100,000 range.>>>

                    This is probably the single biggest thing keeping me from doing my own
                    rewrite and atempting to publish it. Once it's made, People STILL have
                    to find some source for fantasy based miniature ships. It would be
                    different if MOW was still around and you were simply coming up with a
                    new rule set, but ships are hard to find for a lot of people and
                    whether you have one new rule set or want the older, more difficult to
                    obtain one, you still need ships.


                    <<Anyone game for a rewrite....oops a revision? Quick someone call
                    Tim
                    > Burton :)>>>


                    Anyone wanna sculpt some ships??


                    Scott
                  • manowarplayer
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 10, 2003
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                      <<<Jeff (good 'ole Jeff) wrote>>>The Warmaster naval game was
                      mentioned in the UK white dwarf last year in the bullet points part of
                      the news section so they have known for some time. GW began referring
                      to a new version of MOW "in a larger scale" (I think Epic-scale was
                      mentioned at least once) just a year or two after they originally
                      discontinued MOW. When was that, '94 or '95?>>>

                      I remember that too, it seemed like a great idea as it was going to be
                      along the lines of EPIC 40K.


                      <<<Then, just about as soon as Warmaster was announced a couple years
                      back, they started referring to a Warmaster-scale version of MOW, with
                      significant changes to background, mechanics, and rules. I wouldn't be
                      surprised to find that the reason they created the Warmaster-scale
                      Empire ship and Dwarf airships was at least in part to gauge the
                      market.>>>

                      It didnt seem to make sense to add MOW to Warmaster as the scale was
                      all wrong and the more the thought about it the more they realised it
                      I think.


                      <<<More recently, they've made references to "darkening" the game,
                      similar to what's happened in Warhammer. Compare sculpts, Army books,
                      paint schemes, and background from the current edition with earlier
                      editions: much darker, (somewhat) more realistic, much less humor. One
                      of the statements (from Rick? Jervis?) was along the lines of, "A
                      Skaven fleet in MOW? What were we thinking?" And lo, there was much
                      gnashing of incisors among Skaven Admirals everywhere.>>>

                      I read that article too and that comment ALWAYS bugged me! Quite
                      frankly, I don't see the need to "bash" MOW to promote another game.
                      Having Skaven fleets in no way EVER seemed silly to me. If you are
                      going to take that route, then the idea of Skaven doing ANYTHING human
                      like is ridiculous. The recent changes to the Warhammer system reflect
                      the idea of making the game "more grown up" it seems, possibly to
                      appeal to more than just teenage boys. I am puzzled however by some of
                      the "misfires" like the splitting of the Undead into 2 completely
                      different armies. What is next? a seperate Goblin army from the orcs??


                      <<< So, yes, GW has been bouncing around the idea of a new version of
                      MOW for almost a decade now. Whereas most of us in this group, as well
                      as most of the gaming community who ever played MOW, would love to
                      see a bound reprint of the original 3 MOW rulebooks, incorporating the
                      various White Dwarf and Journal articles, Q-and-A's, and rules
                      clarifications. Something like the Necromunda bound book of a few
                      years back. Shoot, they could hire a summer intern or co-op to do that
                      much. As to why they haven't done this yet, and aren't likely to in
                      the future, the most common theory on the Net is that when GW
                      (eventually) releases its new naval wargame, they don't want a bunch
                      of copies of MOW floating around to dilute the market for the new
                      game.>>>

                      IF they ever release a new naval game. Something I doubt anyone at GW
                      is even considering. Hell I would compile all that stuff for them!! A
                      simple compilation with no revisions would SELL!

                      <<<I think the lesson in all of this is, if you ever want to play MOW,
                      now or in the future, buy all the ships you think you'll ever need
                      from GWUS (whole ships and parts for conversions) before all the molds
                      are worn out and retired, because when they're gone, they're probably
                      gone for good. And if you think Ebay prices for the ships are bad now,
                      wait until the GWUS source is gone.>>>

                      You are 100% correct Jeff. I have yet to see any indication that MOW
                      is even on the Radar screen at GW.

                      <<<Disclaimer: Almost all of the conclusions drawn in this post are
                      based on years of second- and thirdhand rumors, plus a handful of
                      direct quotes from GW. So take it all with a grain of salt. And, yes,
                      I'd love for Andy Chambers or someone else at GW who belongs to this
                      group to post and clarify any mistakes I've made. :)>>>

                      I know we have at least one GW employee here. But I think they prefer
                      to keep a low profile to protect them from potential bashing and a
                      total deluge of questions to which they have no answers. Most likely
                      they are just a fan like us and enjoy the information they can obtain
                      here - Which is cool by me!


                      Thanks for a great post (as usual) Jeff,

                      Scott
                    • manowarplayer
                      (JEFF S COMMENT)More recently, they ve made references to darkening the game, similar to what s happened in Warhammer. Compare sculpts, Army
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 11, 2003
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                        <<<I Wrote>>> (JEFF'S COMMENT)More recently, they've made references
                        to "darkening" the game, similar to what's happened in Warhammer.
                        Compare sculpts, Army books, paint schemes, and background from the
                        current edition with earlier editions: much darker, (somewhat) more
                        realistic, much less humor. One of the statements (from Rick? Jervis?)
                        was along the lines of, "A Skaven fleet in MOW? What were we
                        thinking?" And lo, there was much gnashing of incisors among Skaven
                        Admirals everywhere.


                        (MY REPLY) I read that article too and that comment ALWAYS bugged me!
                        Quite frankly, I don't see the need to "bash" MOW to promote another
                        game. Having Skaven fleets in no way EVER seemed silly to me. If you
                        are going to take that route, then the idea of Skaven doing ANYTHING
                        human like is ridiculous. The recent changes to the Warhammer system
                        reflect the idea of making the game "more grown up" it seems, possibly
                        to appeal to more than just teenage boys. I am puzzled however by some
                        of the "misfires" like the splitting of the Undead into 2 completely
                        different armies. What is next? a seperate Goblin army from the orcs??>>>


                        Here is a link to those comments by Jervis:

                        http://www.felixent.force9.co.uk/warmaster_scenery.html

                        Making matters WORSE he included the Orcs in that comment!!!
                        Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghhh!

                        Scott
                      • Victor Garcia
                        ... I bet the bretonnians will loose all the guns, making them some kind of norse fleet, only knights and some archers :-( Victor in Lustria -- -- [Non-text
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 11, 2003
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                          >
                          >Making matters WORSE he included the Orcs in that comment!!!
                          >Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghhh!
                          >
                          >Scott
                          >
                          I bet the bretonnians will loose all the guns, making them some kind
                          of norse fleet, only knights and some archers :-(

                          Victor in Lustria
                          --
                          --

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Brian Sweet
                          I have been considering building the models out of balsa, like the serious naval gamers do (no offense meant) I have a couple of books that describe how and
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 13, 2003
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                            I have been considering building the models out of balsa, like
                            the "serious" naval gamers do (no offense meant) I have a couple of
                            books that describe how and have seen it on the "Battlefleet"
                            website. http://www.wtj.com/games/battlefleet/ It would make each
                            ship more complicated to build and possibly less detailed. (Depends
                            on each player.) It would have two advantages; the more ramshackle
                            fleets could look more ramshackle, and it is a lot less likely that
                            GW would sick their lawyers on you.

                            --- In theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com, "leutenantbrittan"
                            <Richard.Goblin@b...> wrote:
                            > > hi
                            > > could you post that link again because that one isnt correct.
                            > >
                            > > ill mention the idea of making some similar ships to my friend
                            > who
                            > > does casting, how big would the market be though? any
                            > ideas?
                            > >
                            > > Michael
                            >
                            > AARGH!
                            >
                            > Sorry about that!! heres the correct address
                            >
                            > http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.homepage.html
                            >
                            > Note the only thing wrong was the full stop at the end of the link!
                            > But anyway I think that there could be quite a market for fantasy
                            > naval miniatures as think how many people play naval
                            > wargaming, a fantasy range would be perfect for them to
                            > encourage present warhammer players to try something
                            > different but still recognisable. Also the game aeronef seems to
                            > have captured peoples imaginations with the idea of victorian
                            > aerial battleships, and isnt the idea of huge fleets of fantasy
                            > vessels just as cool, if not cooler?
                            > Also with the widespread use of the internet these days it would
                            > have a larger fan base than the original man o war. With some
                            > more quality web pages with ideas, painted minis, projects,
                            > conversions and fluff like this one I wouldnt be surprised if
                            there
                            > was a real boost in fantasy naval warfare!! An example is the
                            > miniatures page which is where I first found out about this site.
                            > Some topics/ links and advertisements on wargamers sites
                            > such as this could well get people interested.
                            > I would be interested to hear everynes views on this.
                          • knowlton190
                            Actually, I asked GW this and they said that when a mold is made, it is slightly larger than the final product. If you took a current Corsair and made a mold
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 4, 2003
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                              Actually, I asked GW this and they said that when a mold is made, it
                              is slightly larger than the final product. If you took a current
                              Corsair and made a mold for it, the newer mini would be something
                              like 10% short than the original. I don't know why this happens, but
                              apparently all the original metals GW makes are slightly larger than
                              what we see in the stores. Thats why they just can use any mini to
                              make a mold.

                              I didn't know the Corsairs were kaput. So add that to the growing
                              list of hard to get minis. Glad I already have mine!

                              See ya



                              --- In theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com, jpattern@a... wrote:
                              > Chris wrote:
                              >
                              > > The Warmaster naval game was mentioned in the UK white dwarf last
                              > > year in the bullet points part of the news section so they have
                              known
                              > > for some time.
                              >
                              > GW began referring to a new version of MOW "in a larger scale" (I
                              think
                              > Epic-scale was mentioned at least once) just a year or two after
                              they
                              > originally discontinued MOW. When was that, '94 or '95?
                              >
                              > Then, just about as soon as Warmaster was announced a couple years
                              back, they
                              > started referring to a Warmaster-scale version of MOW, with
                              significant
                              > changes to background, mechanics, and rules. I wouldn't be
                              surprised to find
                              > that the reason they created the Warmaster-scale Empire ship and
                              Dwarf
                              > airships was at least in part to gauge the market.
                              >
                              > More recently, they've made references to "darkening" the game,
                              similar to
                              > what's happened in Warhammer. Compare sculpts, Army books, paint
                              schemes, and
                              > background from the current edition with earlier editions: much
                              darker,
                              > (somewhat) more realistic, much less humor. One of the statements
                              (from Rick?
                              > Jervis?) was along the lines of, "A Skaven fleet in MOW? What were
                              we
                              > thinking?" And lo, there was much gnashing of incisors among Skaven
                              Admirals
                              > everywhere.
                              >
                              > So, yes, GW has been bouncing around the idea of a new version of
                              MOW for
                              > almost a decade now.
                              >
                              > Whereas most of us in this group, as well as most of the gaming
                              community who
                              > ever played MOW, would love to see a bound reprint of the original
                              3 MOW
                              > rulebooks, incorporating the various White Dwarf and Journal
                              articles,
                              > Q-and-A's, and rules clarifications. Something like the Necromunda
                              bound book
                              > of a few years back. Shoot, they could hire a summer intern or co-
                              op to do
                              > that much. As to why they haven't done this yet, and aren't likely
                              to in the
                              > future, the most common theory on the Net is that when GW
                              (eventually)
                              > releases its new naval wargame, they don't want a bunch of copies
                              of MOW
                              > floating around to dilute the market for the new game.
                              >
                              > > The US must still have the moulds but they seem
                              > > to be two separate companies as you would think they could get
                              the
                              > > moulds over here to copy but no, the fools.
                              >
                              > I've heard that GWUS has a set of the MOW molds, but no master
                              minis. That's
                              > why when a mold wears out, such as the Corsairs mold, they can't
                              create a new
                              > mold; they have no master minis to work from. Now, they could
                              create a mold
                              > from an existing mini, but for some reason they haven't done so.
                              Maybe GWUK
                              > won't let them; maybe they're concerned about the lack of quality
                              of a
                              > copy-of-a-copy; maybe they simply can't spare the mold-makers.
                              >
                              > The same reasoning applies to why GWUK hasn't requested a new set
                              of MOW
                              > molds from GWUS: they could, but for some reason they don't want
                              to. And,
                              > again, the most common theory I've seen is that GW doesn't want a
                              ready
                              > supply of the older ships to be available when they release their
                              new naval
                              > game. If MOW is (roughly) 2mm-scale, and Warmaster is 10mm-scale,
                              all you'd
                              > have to do is use the new rules and the old MOW ships, and scale
                              distances by
                              > 1/5. And I guarantee that the new ships will be a *lot* more
                              expensive than
                              > the old ships, even factoring in Ebay prices. The current Empire
                              ship with
                              > just one sail, equivalent to a MOW Wargalley, is $42US; imagine the
                              cost of
                              > even *one* small fleet of, say, 10 ships! Now, granted, there will
                              probably
                              > be some plastic ships released, which will reduce the cost
                              somewhat, but I
                              > still suspect that the larger ships, as well as all the ships for
                              the more
                              > "unusual" fleets, will be released in resin by Forge World.
                              >
                              > I think the lesson in all of this is, if you ever want to play MOW,
                              now or in
                              > the future, buy all the ships you think you'll ever need from GWUS
                              (whole
                              > ships and parts for conversions) before all the molds are worn out
                              and
                              > retired, because when they're gone, they're probably gone for good.
                              And if
                              > you think Ebay prices for the ships are bad now, wait until the
                              GWUS source
                              > is gone.
                              >
                              > Disclaimer: Almost all of the conclusions drawn in this post are
                              based on
                              > years of second- and thirdhand rumors, plus a handful of direct
                              quotes from
                              > GW. So take it all with a grain of salt. And, yes, I'd love for
                              Andy Chambers
                              > or someone else at GW who belongs to this group to post and clarify
                              any
                              > mistakes I've made. :)
                              >
                              > Jeff Moore
                              > jpattern@a...
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Michael Mitchell
                              After making my own man o war ships - sorry I don t believe that! The mold starts its life as a covering around the original, and the ships I ve made are
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 4, 2003
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                                After making my own man o'war ships - sorry I don't believe that! The
                                mold starts its life as a covering around the original, and the ships
                                I've made are defiantely not 90% of the OOP man o'war ships I've had to
                                use to make the mold.Yes there are slight differences, but not a 10%
                                volume loss!
                                Cheers,
                                Mike.

                                knowlton190 wrote:

                                > Actually, I asked GW this and they said that when a mold is made, it
                                > is slightly larger than the final product. If you took a current
                                > Corsair and made a mold for it, the newer mini would be something
                                > like 10% short than the original. I don't know why this happens, but
                                > apparently all the original metals GW makes are slightly larger than
                                > what we see in the stores. Thats why they just can use any mini to
                                > make a mold.
                                >
                                > I didn't know the Corsairs were kaput. So add that to the growing
                                > list of hard to get minis. Glad I already have mine!
                                >
                                > See ya
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • knowlton190
                                And what did u make the minis out of? Resin? Pewter may set differently than other materials. Remember how metal expands and shrinks from tempatures. I am
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                  And what did u make the minis out of? Resin? Pewter may set
                                  differently than other materials. Remember how metal expands and
                                  shrinks from tempatures. I am willing to guess it behaves a little
                                  different than resin or something.

                                  I don't think the GW guy would lie to me, and there has to be a
                                  decent explanation for GW not go just make a new mold if it were that
                                  easy. I mean, I am sure they have literally tons of spare minis
                                  everywhere, and if all it took was taking an existing mini and making
                                  a mold from it, the Chaos Dwarf fleet would still be available.

                                  GW sells a lot of random minis, and since they are in the business of
                                  selling toy soldiers, it would seem to me that they would love for
                                  you to just buy their pewter in any form, regardless if it was for
                                  40k, Necromunda, or Man O War.

                                  BTW: I was also told by GW that the molds for the Chaos Dwarf fleet
                                  were lost on Pan Am Flight 111 that blew up over Scotland. That is
                                  why those minis are the hardest to come by as their production run
                                  was shorter than the others. Yeah molds do break but these were
                                  destroyed.

                                  See ya.



                                  --- In theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com, Michael Mitchell
                                  <themitchells@i...> wrote:
                                  > After making my own man o'war ships - sorry I don't believe that!
                                  The
                                  > mold starts its life as a covering around the original, and the
                                  ships
                                  > I've made are defiantely not 90% of the OOP man o'war ships I've
                                  had to
                                  > use to make the mold.Yes there are slight differences, but not a
                                  10%
                                  > volume loss!
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Mike.
                                  >
                                  > knowlton190 wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Actually, I asked GW this and they said that when a mold is made,
                                  it
                                  > > is slightly larger than the final product. If you took a current
                                  > > Corsair and made a mold for it, the newer mini would be something
                                  > > like 10% short than the original. I don't know why this happens,
                                  but
                                  > > apparently all the original metals GW makes are slightly larger
                                  than
                                  > > what we see in the stores. Thats why they just can use any mini
                                  to
                                  > > make a mold.
                                  > >
                                  > > I didn't know the Corsairs were kaput. So add that to the growing
                                  > > list of hard to get minis. Glad I already have mine!
                                  > >
                                  > > See ya
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • Michael Mitchell
                                  I make my miniatures out of bronze, or pewter, with a few additives. As for Games Workshop, a company that can t even put it s mail order database online -
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 6, 2003
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                                    I make my miniatures out of bronze, or pewter, with a few additives.

                                    As for Games Workshop, a company that can't even put it's mail order
                                    database online - that smacks of slackness. (Total slackness.) Man'o war
                                    is not a management priority because it's not even on the radar screen
                                    in terms of sales, and probably falls squarely on the shoulders of the
                                    Mail order division of the USA. So long as their (the US mail order)
                                    results are OK, they won't worry. That is how companies work. Games
                                    workshop is a shrewd money making organisation - just read the financial
                                    results on the site, but they focus their efforts on the popular games,
                                    and man o'war was not popular! (I think I know why ;)) Man o'war was a
                                    failure for them.

                                    Regards,
                                    Mike.

                                    knowlton190 wrote:

                                    > And what did u make the minis out of? Resin? Pewter may set
                                    > differently than other materials. Remember how metal expands and
                                    > shrinks from tempatures. I am willing to guess it behaves a little
                                    > different than resin or something.
                                    >
                                    > I don't think the GW guy would lie to me, and there has to be a
                                    > decent explanation for GW not go just make a new mold if it were that
                                    > easy. I mean, I am sure they have literally tons of spare minis
                                    > everywhere, and if all it took was taking an existing mini and making
                                    > a mold from it, the Chaos Dwarf fleet would still be available.
                                    >
                                    > GW sells a lot of random minis, and since they are in the business of
                                    > selling toy soldiers, it would seem to me that they would love for
                                    > you to just buy their pewter in any form, regardless if it was for
                                    > 40k, Necromunda, or Man O War.
                                    >
                                    > BTW: I was also told by GW that the molds for the Chaos Dwarf fleet
                                    > were lost on Pan Am Flight 111 that blew up over Scotland. That is
                                    > why those minis are the hardest to come by as their production run
                                    > was shorter than the others. Yeah molds do break but these were
                                    > destroyed.
                                    >
                                    > See ya.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com, Michael Mitchell
                                    > <themitchells@i...> wrote:
                                    > > After making my own man o'war ships - sorry I don't believe that!
                                    > The
                                    > > mold starts its life as a covering around the original, and the
                                    > ships
                                    > > I've made are defiantely not 90% of the OOP man o'war ships I've
                                    > had to
                                    > > use to make the mold.Yes there are slight differences, but not a
                                    > 10%
                                    > > volume loss!
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > Mike.
                                    > >
                                    > > knowlton190 wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Actually, I asked GW this and they said that when a mold is made,
                                    > it
                                    > > > is slightly larger than the final product. If you took a current
                                    > > > Corsair and made a mold for it, the newer mini would be something
                                    > > > like 10% short than the original. I don't know why this happens,
                                    > but
                                    > > > apparently all the original metals GW makes are slightly larger
                                    > than
                                    > > > what we see in the stores. Thats why they just can use any mini
                                    > to
                                    > > > make a mold.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I didn't know the Corsairs were kaput. So add that to the growing
                                    > > > list of hard to get minis. Glad I already have mine!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > See ya
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Brett Johnson
                                    I was speaking to a ExGW moulder in the UK and to make a mould costs AT LEAST 5,000 pounds and they need to make them in a production lot with other minatures.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 6, 2003
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                                      I was speaking to a ExGW moulder in the UK and to make a mould costs
                                      AT LEAST 5,000 pounds and they need to make them in a production lot
                                      with other minatures. So lets see a CD fleet has what 4 ship types
                                      not counting flyers thats 20K pounds outlay! So there is no way GW is
                                      going to do this they could not generate the required revenue for it.
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