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Re: Copyright

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  • andypatrick@ntlworld.com
    I think it s clear that GW don t understand that they have competition now. It wasn t really the case before the internet - if you wanted to play a non-GW
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 1, 2009
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      I think it's clear that GW don't understand that they have competition now. It wasn't really the case before the internet - if you wanted to play a non-GW wargame, to all intents and purposes you couldn't. You had nowhere to buy rules, let alone anywhere to compare them before buying, and if you were lucky you had a model shop in your town that sold some models, but good luck finding an opponent!

      GW, however, had the GW stores, and that meant that thousands of people suddenly had somewhere to buy the rules and models, with knowledgeable staff, and places to not only meet opponents but actually play the games too. People would be minding their own business, walking down the high street, see a GW store and half an hour later they're a hobbyist spending all their money on toy soldiers. NO other company had such an arrangement so GW stores were a massive commercial advantage to them. Granted, to actually run the shops cost money, so their models became more expensive - but there was nothing to compare to, and anyway they were worth the extra money because you could actually do something with them.

      Nowadays the stores are a millstone around GW's neck. You can find other rules, models, and opponents online, and you can do a straight-up price comparison and find that (because they still have to run the shops) GW plastic models cost the same as other companies metal, but aren't any better and you have to buy them in boxes of 20 at a time. The GW metal models, even if we assume they are better (itself arguable recently) are a truly ridiculous price nowadays - £7 for one figure seems to be the going rate.

      And make no mistake about this, GW are panicking. They are losing turnover hand over fist as everyone heads to other companies (or simply eBay) and they don't make enough profit compared to turnover for lowering prices to be possible. They've closed some stores in unprofitable regions, but as of yet resisted in the core territories, and are now finding they have to squeeze every penny out of people, which is turning them away. The only way they will really be able to survive is to either (a) reduce prices, which will mean closing all stores except probably Lenton and Plaza or (b) increase quality so dramatically as to once more justify the price difference, which is basically impossible as they're among the best (if not actually the best any more) already. One is unappealling, the other impossible, so they act out of desperation. (Not evil, as I described before).

      The tragedy in all this is that many people (myself firmly included) *love* the GW worlds. Sorry, but (although the models are pretty) War Machine and Hordes are pale imitations of Warhammer and 40K... but I can't argue that they're not more accessible nowadays. I personally am happy to pay a small premium for GW products because of that love - a lot of which probably arises from nostalgia, I accept, so may not apply to others, and I'm not prepared to pay a large premium any more. (I find the constant Flames of War mentions bizarre, as they're not actually any cheaper at all, considerably less good to look at, and the rules are a mess. Sure if you like WWII you'll probably like FoW but otherwise I don't get it).

      So I can understand people turning away from GW products. But I have to say I don't understand the point of throwing away the GW stuff you already own... that doesn't make much sense to me. So when people saying they're getting rid of MoW stuff in protest at GW "shafting the community" I get very confused. What are you trying to achieve? You don't need GW's permission to play games unless you're playing in GW stores. Do what the heck you like, and why not. GW won't notice if you stop playing old games... but you'll notice that you're no longer playing a game you like.

      Anyway, that was a LOT longer an email than I expected, so I'd better refrain from further comment I think!

      Andy
    • cell72004
      But it read like a poem ... very well written and with logical reasoning. I d like to add that the GWs (increased) ventures into boardgames (through Fantasy
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 1, 2009
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        But it read like a poem ... very well written and with logical reasoning. I'd like to add that the GWs (increased) ventures into boardgames (through Fantasy Flight) and computer games of late, are probably a part of their crysis management.
        I also don't understand the whole "I've banned GW from my house". Money is a pretty strong voting mechanism when it comes to telling a company which of their stuff works and what doesn't. I can only imagine the fury in the GW management when they see the cult following and the organised events of the Blood Bowl, or the awe that colourful creatoins of the MoW enthusiasts cause in casual observers. I wholeheartedly encourage the anger unleashed at the GWs latest comedies, to be chanelled into passionate creativity, which will have great potential at atracting newcommers to the hobby as a whole.
        Because in the end as I often say; fantasy naval wrgamers are too small a crew not to stick together, hold fast and show 'em teeth to the storm. :)

         Tue, 12/1/09, andypatrick@... <andypatrick@...> wrote:






         











        Anyway, that was a LOT longer an email than I expected, so I'd better refrain from further comment I think!



        Andy







        _






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      • Victor Garcia
        That last paragraph is pure gold. I love Warhammer universe, but hate GW Corp, Ltd, Inc, Mgb, CA, etc. I will keep my armies, fleets, bands and teams. But the
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 1, 2009
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          That last paragraph is pure gold.

          I love Warhammer universe, but hate GW Corp, Ltd, Inc, Mgb, CA, etc.

          I will keep my armies, fleets, bands and teams. But the willingness to support them when some friends start talking of Warmachine, Hordes, or any other figure game is gone for now.

          Victor in Lustria


          From: andypatrick

          <<Big SNIP>>


          So I can understand people turning away from GW products. But I have to say I don't understand the point of throwing away the GW stuff you already own... that doesn't make much sense to me. So when people saying they're getting rid of MoW stuff in protest at GW "shafting the community" I get very confused. What are you trying to achieve? You don't need GW's permission to play games unless you're playing in GW stores. Do what the heck you like, and why not. GW won't notice if you stop playing old games... but you'll notice that you're no longer playing a game you like.



          Anyway, that was a LOT longer an email than I expected, so I'd better refrain from further comment I think!



          Andy













          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Zamor
          Andy,   I think you said it well and I agree with your last paragraph especially.  I already own what I own, so it would not serve me well to symbolically
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 1, 2009
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            Andy,
             
            I think you said it well and I agree with your last paragraph especially.  I already own what I own, so it would not serve me well to symbolically can my collection.  Since I bought all of it on ebay anyway, as i do all of my GW stuff, I won't punish myself by getting rid of it. Plus GW has gotten whatever money was spend at their stores anyway.
             
            Despite it all, Man o War rocks and I can hardly wait until I can introduce it to my young ones.  I am looking for things that I can play that are un-GW in the mean time though.  Someday there will be myriad of choices out there and GW won't be able to be as cavalier in their contempt for their consumers.  I think they are opening the door and one of these days someone is going come bursting through it with quality gaming products (like warmachine and FoW).  When this happens, we all need to remember these frustrations and embrace these competitors if their product warrants it.  In the end, it is win for everyone.  If the competition causes GW to rectify distasteful policies and forces them to also get off their laurels to create a wider array of gaming choices then we will also win.

            Z

             




            --- On Tue, 12/1/09, andypatrick@... <andypatrick@...> wrote:


            From: andypatrick@... <andypatrick@...>
            Subject: [The Sea Of Claws] Re: Copyright
            To: theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 4:25 PM


             



            I think it's clear that GW don't understand that they have competition now. It wasn't really the case before the internet - if you wanted to play a non-GW wargame, to all intents and purposes you couldn't. You had nowhere to buy rules, let alone anywhere to compare them before buying, and if you were lucky you had a model shop in your town that sold some models, but good luck finding an opponent!

            GW, however, had the GW stores, and that meant that thousands of people suddenly had somewhere to buy the rules and models, with knowledgeable staff, and places to not only meet opponents but actually play the games too. People would be minding their own business, walking down the high street, see a GW store and half an hour later they're a hobbyist spending all their money on toy soldiers. NO other company had such an arrangement so GW stores were a massive commercial advantage to them. Granted, to actually run the shops cost money, so their models became more expensive - but there was nothing to compare to, and anyway they were worth the extra money because you could actually do something with them.

            Nowadays the stores are a millstone around GW's neck. You can find other rules, models, and opponents online, and you can do a straight-up price comparison and find that (because they still have to run the shops) GW plastic models cost the same as other companies metal, but aren't any better and you have to buy them in boxes of 20 at a time. The GW metal models, even if we assume they are better (itself arguable recently) are a truly ridiculous price nowadays - £7 for one figure seems to be the going rate.

            And make no mistake about this, GW are panicking. They are losing turnover hand over fist as everyone heads to other companies (or simply eBay) and they don't make enough profit compared to turnover for lowering prices to be possible. They've closed some stores in unprofitable regions, but as of yet resisted in the core territories, and are now finding they have to squeeze every penny out of people, which is turning them away. The only way they will really be able to survive is to either (a) reduce prices, which will mean closing all stores except probably Lenton and Plaza or (b) increase quality so dramatically as to once more justify the price difference, which is basically impossible as they're among the best (if not actually the best any more) already. One is unappealling, the other impossible, so they act out of desperation. (Not evil, as I described before).

            The tragedy in all this is that many people (myself firmly included) *love* the GW worlds. Sorry, but (although the models are pretty) War Machine and Hordes are pale imitations of Warhammer and 40K... but I can't argue that they're not more accessible nowadays. I personally am happy to pay a small premium for GW products because of that love - a lot of which probably arises from nostalgia, I accept, so may not apply to others, and I'm not prepared to pay a large premium any more. (I find the constant Flames of War mentions bizarre, as they're not actually any cheaper at all, considerably less good to look at, and the rules are a mess. Sure if you like WWII you'll probably like FoW but otherwise I don't get it).

            So I can understand people turning away from GW products. But I have to say I don't understand the point of throwing away the GW stuff you already own... that doesn't make much sense to me. So when people saying they're getting rid of MoW stuff in protest at GW "shafting the community" I get very confused. What are you trying to achieve? You don't need GW's permission to play games unless you're playing in GW stores. Do what the heck you like, and why not. GW won't notice if you stop playing old games... but you'll notice that you're no longer playing a game you like.

            Anyway, that was a LOT longer an email than I expected, so I'd better refrain from further comment I think!

            Andy










            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marell Le Fou
            I liked your very sane mail too. And yes, of course we don t have to throw out of the window our games. The most important thing in this affaire is still to
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 1, 2009
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              I liked your very sane mail too.

              And yes, of course we don't have to throw out of the window our games. The most important thing in this affaire is still to keep enjoying what we like.

              I like your analysis of the economic situation with GW shops.

              I'm not sure they are really panicing at this moment... But they should.

              I don't know if someone here works at a GW store or something like that. If yes, please, speak. We won't throw you anything :)

              Tell us what is the situation.

              Marell

              --- En date de : Mar 1.12.09, cell72004 <cell72004@...> a écrit :

              De: cell72004 <cell72004@...>
              Objet: Re: [The Sea Of Claws] Re: Copyright
              À: theseaofclaws@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mardi 1 Décembre 2009, 18h07







               









              But it read like a poem ... very well written and with logical reasoning. I'd like to add that the GWs (increased) ventures into boardgames (through Fantasy Flight) and computer games of late, are probably a part of their crysis management.

              I also don't understand the whole "I've banned GW from my house". Money is a pretty strong voting mechanism when it comes to telling a company which of their stuff works and what doesn't. I can only imagine the fury in the GW management when they see the cult following and the organised events of the Blood Bowl, or the awe that colourful creatoins of the MoW enthusiasts cause in casual observers. I wholeheartedly encourage the anger unleashed at the GWs latest comedies, to be chanelled into passionate creativity, which will have great potential at atracting newcommers to the hobby as a whole.

              Because in the end as I often say; fantasy naval wrgamers are too small a crew not to stick together, hold fast and show 'em teeth to the storm. :)



               Tue, 12/1/09, andypatrick@ ntlworld. com <andypatrick@ ntlworld. com> wrote:



               



              Anyway, that was a LOT longer an email than I expected, so I'd better refrain from further comment I think!



              Andy



              _



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