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Re: The Rise & Fall of Animal Rights: Holding Activists Accountable By

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  • Greg
    Yes that was a compliment, rain. Yes you are more reserved and articulate. CONGRATS on you graduation!!! What is your major? Sounds like the same old stuff
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 4, 2003
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      Yes that was a compliment, rain. Yes you are more reserved and
      articulate. CONGRATS on you graduation!!! What is your major?

      "Sounds like the same old stuff to me ... and I find it rather
      offensive that I'm expected to read this long-winded, detailed
      drivel from this guy when he brushes aside Animal Rightists'
      concerns about animals used for human gain without looking at the
      details of the issues."

      What rain, there is no dribble posted on this board? Come on, you
      don't use animals to your benefit?

      "For example, he says, "They (Animal Rightists) have called on
      doctors to stop prescribing drugs like Premarin, which is produced
      from the estrogen-rich urine of pregnant mares." As if Animal
      Rightists just decided to do this with no reason behind it
      whatsoever. Believe it or not, there IS a reason to object to this
      practice."

      Well they have, haven't they? As if I haven't already heard
      the reasons, let's hear them again.

      "I suggest you stop letting people make your decisions for you
      with these generalizations and this propaganda, and look at the
      issues individually and decide for yourself what is right."

      No problem with that. The ARA's aren't guilty of that? They
      are not trying to shove things done others throat?

      "And, I notice, NOWHERE in this article did he address the REAL
      issues: How ARE the seals killed? In a humane manner? Or are
      they clubbed to death? (Because I have seen an animal clubbed to
      death, and believe me, it is NOT a humane death.)"

      He most certainly did. Reread. Did you not understand the ARA's
      lied? Can you say money? Twas the just of the article. I don't
      want to read about the clubbing you witnessed, but how does that
      relate to the lies of ARA's? How are you so certain the two relate?

      "Why were hunters allowed to kill hundreds of thousands more
      seals than the legal quota last year with no ramifications? What IS
      the trend of the seal populations?"

      How much does a seal eat? Think it might effect other species? It
      must be healthy from the stats you have given.

      "It seems to me that THESE are the things that this guy would be
      knowledgeable about, NOT the why's and wherefore's of the Animal
      Rights movement, so I have to ask myself WHY didn't he address these
      issues?"

      You missed the point. I know you to be compassionate about animals.
      I actually do understand that. I too have compassion for animals but
      see it differently. He's NOT questioning YOUR compassion.

      "perhaps I should have an Animal Rightist answer these questions
      for me."

      That's a disclaimer. Very confused.



      --- In therealpeta@yahoogroups.com, september_rain_33f
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Hey, Wilson. Thanks for the compliment, I think. :)
      >
      > How have I changed? The only difference is that I'm not as
      stressed
      > because I graduated from school in May. Maybe I've lightened up a
      > little.
      >
      > --- In therealpeta@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <gwilson45107@y...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > Hmmmm.....damn rain you have changed. Not too shaby of a post.
      The
      > > article is from 1997, just so ya know.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In therealpeta@yahoogroups.com, september_rain_33f
      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > Sounds like the same old stuff to me ... and I find it rather
      > > > offensive that I'm expected to read this long-winded, detailed
      > > drivel
      > > > from this guy when he brushes aside Animal Rightists' concerns
      > > about
      > > > animals used for human gain without looking at the details of
      the
      > > > issues.
      > > >
      > > > For example, he says, "They (Animal Rightists) have called on
      > > doctors
      > > > to stop prescribing drugs like Premarin, which is produced
      from
      > > the
      > > > estrogen-rich urine of pregnant mares." As if Animal Rightists
      > > just
      > > > decided to do this with no reason behind it whatsoever.
      Believe
      > it
      > > or
      > > > not, there IS a reason to object to this practice.
      > > >
      > > > This is just another propaganda attempt to try to make the
      Animal
      > > > Rights movement look bad. It's basically the only way people
      can
      > > > fight against a movement that is making people evaluate what
      is
      > > right
      > > > and what is wrong. I suggest you stop letting people make your
      > > > decisions for you with these generalizations and this
      propaganda,
      > > and
      > > > look at the issues individually and decide for yourself what
      is
      > > right.
      > > >
      > > > And, I notice, NOWHERE in this article did he address the REAL
      > > > issues: How ARE the seals killed? In a humane manner? Or are
      > they
      > > > clubbed to death? (Because I have seen an animal clubbed to
      > death,
      > > > and believe me, it is NOT a humane death.) Why were hunters
      > > allowed
      > > > to kill hundreds of thousands more seals than the legal quota
      > last
      > > > year with no ramifications? What IS the trend of the seal
      > > populations?
      > > >
      > > > It seems to me that THESE are the things that this guy would
      be
      > > > knowledgeable about, NOT the why's and wherefore's of the
      Animal
      > > > Rights movement, so I have to ask myself WHY didn't he address
      > > these
      > > > issues? Obviously he thought the best defense was an attempt
      at
      > an
      > > > offense. Oh well ... perhaps I should have an Animal Rightist
      > > answer
      > > > these questions for me.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In therealpeta@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <gwilson45107@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > by Alan Herscovici
      > > > >
      > > > > Alan Herscovici, a Montreal-based writer and consultant
      > > > specializing
      > > > > in environmental issues, is the author of "Second Nature:
      The
      > > > Animal-
      > > > > Rights Controversy" (Stoddart, 1991.) Raised in the fur
      trade,
      > > > > Herscovici now serves as executive vice-president with the
      Fur
      > > > > Council of Canada, a non-profit, national industry
      association
      > > with
      > > > > members representing every sector of the Canadian fur trade.
      > The
      > > > > views expressed are the author's. IT'S A SURE SIGN OF SPRING
      > > when
      > > > > animal-rights activists put aside placards denouncing the
      evils
      > > of
      > > > > hamburgers, circuses, medical research, and the fur trade,
      to
      > > > launch
      > > > > their annual campaign against the Canadian seal hunt. Few of
      > > > today's
      > > > > ardent young crusaders were even born when the first "shock"
      > > images
      > > > > of the seal hunt were broadcast by Radio Canada more than
      > thirty
      > > > > years ago, in 1964. Magdalene Island hunter Gustave Poirier
      > > later
      > > > > testified that he was paid by the film crew to torment seals
      > for
      > > > > their cameras. The wave of international protest he helped
      to
      > > > > unleash, however, would soon generate more money than
      Poirier
      > > and
      > > > > the entire Canadian seal hunt had ever produced.
      > > > >
      > > > > Brian Davies, a Canadian army recruit and recent immigrant
      from
      > > > > Wales, led the New Brunswick SPCA's first "Save the Seals"
      > > campaign
      > > > > in 1965. By 1969 (heady days of student revolt and anti-war
      > > demos)
      > > > > Davies spun off his own International Fund for Animal
      Welfare
      > > > (IFAW)
      > > > > and set to work wooing US and European media coverage. But
      it
      > > was
      > > > > only in 1976-77 that the seal-hunt protests reached their
      full
      > > > > intensity, with the arrival of Greenpeace and Brigitte
      Bardot
      > on
      > > > the
      > > > > ice.
      > > > >
      > > > > By then, new regulations (and the extension of Canadian
      > > territorial
      > > > > waters) had already addressed most of the original
      conservation
      > > and
      > > > > animal-welfare concerns. Scientists no longer worried that
      the
      > > seal
      > > > > stocks were endangered, and the killing grounds were
      monitored
      > > by
      > > > an
      > > > > annual parade of veterinary pathologists. But dramatic
      images
      > of
      > > > > brutish hunters clubbing fluffy white seal pups had became a
      > > > > powerful symbol of modern man's supposed insensitivity to
      > > nature.
      > > > >
      > > > > As Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore later told me: "What
      the
      > > > seal
      > > > > hunt represented was the paramount focus for public
      attention
      > on
      > > > the
      > > > > need to change our basic attitude and relationship to nature
      > and
      > > to
      > > > > the species that make it up...it fundamentally came down to
      a
      > > > > question of morality."
      > > > >
      > > > > In other words, the issue was no longer how many seals were
      > > killed,
      > > > > or how, but whether we ought to hunt seals at all. Few
      > > understood
      > > > > that this raised a much more troublesome question: "Do we
      have
      > > the
      > > > > right to kill any wildlife or, for that matter, any animals
      at
      > > > all?"
      > > > >
      > > > > This is precisely the question posed by Australian
      philosopher
      > > > Peter
      > > > > Singer in his 1975 best-seller Animal Liberation: A New
      Ethics
      > > for
      > > > > our Treatment of Animals. Protesting the slaughter of baby
      > seals
      > > in
      > > > > Canada while continuing to eat meat, Singer wrote, "is like
      > > > > denouncing apartheid in South Africa while asking your
      > > neighbours
      > > > > not to sell their houses to blacks."
      > > > >
      > > > > Singer's book became the manifesto of a radical new movement
      > > that
      > > > > opposes any use of animals, even for food or medical
      research.
      > > > > According to Ingrid Newkirk, founder of the Maryland-based
      > > People
      > > > > for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA): "Animal
      > > liberationists
      > > > > do not separate out the human animal, so there is no
      rational
      > > basis
      > > > > for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a
      > pig
      > > is
      > > > > a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."
      > > > >
      > > > > Many of these ideas were explored over one hundred years ago
      by
      > > the
      > > > > American reformer Henry Salt (Animals' Rights: Considered in
      > > > > Relation to Social Progress, 1894.) Much earlier, Leonardo
      da
      > > > Vinci,
      > > > > Pythagorus, and other notables are said to have adopted
      various
      > > > > forms of ethical vegetarianism. Through most of human
      history,
      > > > > however, vegetarianism was usually more a matter of
      necessity
      > > than
      > > > > morality.
      > > > >
      > > > > By the 1970s, western society had changed. The great
      majority
      > of
      > > > the
      > > > > population was urban. And there was television, a fickle
      medium
      > > > > where emotional celebrities trump dry scientific reports,
      and
      > > > > complex issues are reduced to competing soundbites - the
      > > electronic
      > > > > equivalent of a protester's placard. Television also plays
      > > tricks
      > > > > with context: slaughtering methods that are perfectly
      > legitimate
      > > > > among people who wrest their livings from land and sea
      indeed
      > > > > become "shocking" when projected into pristine suburban
      living-
      > > > > rooms.
      > > > >
      > > > > Above all, television thrives on controversy. And television
      > > > > coverage provided publicity for well-oiled fund-raising
      drives
      > > > > which, as seal-protest veteran Stephen Best observed,
      heralded
      > > the
      > > > > arrival of the "professional animal-rights activist."
      > > > >
      > > > > The protests climaxed in 1983 with a European Community (EC)
      > ban
      > > on
      > > > > the import of "whitecoats" and "bluebacks", the skins of
      young
      > > harp
      > > > > and hooded seal pups. Seals taken by aboriginal people were
      > > > > officially exempted from this law, and Canada sought to
      appease
      > > > > European sensibilities by stopping the hunt of young pups.
      By
      > > then,
      > > > > however, negative publicity had effectively destroyed
      > > established
      > > > > markets for all sealskin products, ending a way of life for
      > many
      > > > > coastal Newfoundland, Quebec, and Arctic Inuit communities.
      For
      > > the
      > > > > emerging animal-rights movement, this was only a beginning.
      > > > >
      > > > > Using media, political, and fund-raising skills honed during
      > the
      > > > > seal wars, animal-rights activists have launched campaigns
      > > against
      > > > > eating meat, eggs, or dairy products. They reject the use of
      > > > natural
      > > > > fur, leather, wool (sheep are nicked), or even silk (worms
      are
      > > > > boiled). They abhor hunters and fishermen, and want animals
      out
      > > of
      > > > > research labs, circuses, and aquariums. They have called on
      > > doctors
      > > > > to stop prescribing drugs like Premarin, which is produced
      from
      > > the
      > > > > estrogen-rich urine of pregnant mares. Some activists even
      > worry
      > > > > about eating honey, using seeing-eye dogs - or keeping pets.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yet what has the animal-rights movement really accomplished?
      > > > > Virtually none of the money they collect is used to fund
      humane
      > > > > shelters, develop better animal husbandry methods, or find
      > cures
      > > > for
      > > > > diseases. Instead, donations pay the salaries of
      professional
      > > > > organizers, subsidize more fund-raising, and fuel
      > sensationalist
      > > > > campaigns against animal-use industries.
      > > > >
      > > > > Despite what most people (including many journalists) still
      > > > believe,
      > > > > this movement does not seek reforms to improve the treatment
      of
      > > > > animals we use. According to the Animal Alliance of Canada,
      > > animal
      > > > > rights "goes to the roots of the problem to extirpate
      > > exploitation
      > > > > at its source, rather than initiating half-measures and
      > treating
      > > > > symptoms rather than causes, as the animal welfare/humane
      > > movement
      > > > > has traditionally done."
      > > > >
      > > > > Responsible trapping (farming, research, etc.) standards
      > > reinforce
      > > > > consumer acceptance of animal-based products and services.
      So
      > > > animal-
      > > > > rights campaigners ignore the wide range of improvements
      which
      > > have
      > > > > already been made by industry, often in cooperation with
      > > > traditional
      > > > > animal-welfare organizations. They cite unresolved problems
      or
      > > > > occasional abuses as proof that reform is not possible.
      > > > >
      > > > > The question remains why some people feel so passionate a
      need
      > > to
      > > > > dictate what the rest of us should eat, wear, think, or do.
      > > > >
      > > > > Animal advocates may consider themselves more ethically
      evolved
      > > > than
      > > > > most of us. "The Activist", a newsletter published by
      Toronto-
      > > based
      > > > > ARK II, recently advised: "If our friends, family, or co-
      > workers
      > > > > want to laugh at us [for speaking out for animals], then let
      > > them.
      > > > > They are the unfortunate ones, for they don't have the
      > > sensitivity
      > > > > and compassion that would allow them to do the same."
      > > > >
      > > > > The sensitivity and compassion of animal rights doesn't
      embrace
      > > > > Inuit hunters or Newfoundland fishermen, however, except in
      the
      > > > most
      > > > > paternalistic sense: "They should do something else." Nor
      does
      > > it
      > > > > take much account of those suffering from AIDS and other
      > > diseases
      > > > > which medical researchers are working to cure.
      > > > >
      > > > > Ironically, animal rights is often described by its
      advocates
      > as
      > > an
      > > > > extension of the civil rights or feminist
      movements. "Speaking
      > > for
      > > > > the animals", however, offers some definite advantages over
      > > these
      > > > > models for the leadership: the oppressed cannot question
      their
      > > > > policies. Human supporters have little say either, since
      many
      > > large
      > > > > animal-rights groups don't bother with voting memberships or
      > > > elected
      > > > > Boards.
      > > > >
      > > > > Having dispensed with democratic procedures in their own
      ranks,
      > > it
      > > > > is not surprising that many animal activists now
      > propose "direct
      > > > > action" to impose their views on the rest of society. ARK II
      > > > invites
      > > > > readers of their newsletter to join the Animal Liberation
      Front
      > > > > Support Group and publishes the "ALF Guidelines". These
      > > > include: "to
      > > > > inflict economic damage on those who profit from the misery
      and
      > > > > exploitation of animals." Research facilities, farms, meat
      and
      > > fish
      > > > > packing plants, and hunting outfitters have been recent
      targets
      > > of
      > > > > ALF vandalism and arson in Canada.
      > > > >
      > > > > The militancy of animal activism may prove its undoing.
      Harold
      > > A.
      > > > > Herzog Jr. reported in the November issue of American
      > > Psychologist
      > > > > that media coverage of animal-rights issues increased
      > > dramatically
      > > > > through the 1980s, but has declined significantly since
      1990.
      > > > > Journalists generally try to avoid promoting extremist
      groups;
      > > they
      > > > > become more cautious as they learn more about the real
      animal-
      > > > rights
      > > > > agenda.
      > > > >
      > > > > But decreasing press coverage may also reflect a more
      ominous
      > > > change
      > > > > of tactics: animal-rights groups are abandoning noisy street
      > > > > protests as professional activists devote more of their
      > > attention
      > > > to
      > > > > infiltrating government legislative committees and targeting
      > > school
      > > > > children with the assistance of sympathetic teachers.
      > > > >
      > > > > To generate publicity, animal activists are returning to
      well-
      > > > > rehearsed themes. As it has done many times since 1984, the
      > > > > International Fund for Animal Welfare is once again calling
      for
      > > a
      > > > > British boycott of Canadian tinned salmon to protest the
      > > > > continuation of the seal hunt. The fact that Pacific coast
      > > salmon
      > > > > fishermen live a continent away from the Atlantic seal hunt
      > will
      > > > > probably not be highlighted in IFAW fund-raising letters.
      > > > >
      > > > > So long as they can pose as idealistic crusaders,
      contributions
      > > > will
      > > > > flow into the animal-rights coffers. According to Stephen
      Best
      > > (now
      > > > > with the International Wildlife Coalition), "today the
      animal-
      > > > rights
      > > > > movement is in every sense of the word an industry." Best
      > > portrays
      > > > > animal-rights campaigns as "products" to be marketed
      > > > > through "promotion." He also believes that "the public is
      more
      > > > > likely to respond to more radical and extreme positions than
      > > > > conservative ones."
      > > > >
      > > > > Dan Matthews, PeTA's whiz-kid campaigner, brushes aside
      > > criticisms
      > > > > of his media stunts with the observation that "people don't
      > want
      > > to
      > > > > be informed, they want to be entertained." (People Magazine,
      > > > > February 13, 1995.) With well-meaning contributors pouring
      more
      > > > than
      > > > > $10 million into PeTA's bank accounts each year, perhaps he
      > just
      > > > > can't resist being smug.
      > > > >
      > > > > But if Matthews and Best are right, perhaps it's time that
      > > animal
      > > > > activists were held more accountable for the accuracy and
      > impact
      > > of
      > > > > their campaigns - just like any other industry.
    • september_rain_33f
      Good Lord, it s going to take me hours to answer all of this ... and I m going to see Finding Nemo tonight, so I don t have time for it all ... but, here s a
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 5, 2003
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        Good Lord, it's going to take me hours to answer all of this ... and
        I'm going to see "Finding Nemo" tonight, so I don't have time for it
        all ... but, here's a start...

        Thank you for the congratulations on my graduation. I was attending
        vet school, and am now a licensed veterinarian.

        It gets very complicated answering posts that are answers to posts,
        but I'll try to make it as uncomplicated as possible:

        *************************
        I said:
        "Sounds like the same old stuff to me ... and I find it rather
        offensive that I'm expected to read this long-winded, detailed drivel
        from this guy when he brushes aside Animal Rightists' concerns about
        animals used for human gain without looking at the details of the
        issues."

        You said:
        "What rain, there is no dribble posted on this board? Come on, you
        don't use animals to your benefit?"

        I now say:
        There is a lot of drivel posted to this board. That doesn't explain
        why this guy expects me to read his detailed drivel while he doesn't
        seem to pay attention to the details of the drivel of others. This
        seems hypocritical to me, and I've found that it's not good to be
        hypocritical when it comes to drivel. :)

        Anyway, where was it that I indicated that I don't use animals to my
        benefit? I do use animals to my benefit, although I don't eat them.
        And, my pets benefit me a lot, but I don't know if loving and caring
        for my pets can really be termed "using" them. But you see, it is the
        anti-AR community that likes to lump all of us animal protection
        people into one big AR bucket. So, even if I claim to not be an
        extremist, I will be labled one anyway. This will not keep me from
        saying that we need to evaluate the issues individually and make
        educated decisions.
        ************************

        Okay, gotta run ... will type more later.
      • Greg
        Damn rain, major congratulations!!!! Will you work for yourself? What are your plans? It s late here too. Whenever. ... and ... it ... attending ... posts, ...
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 5, 2003
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          Damn rain, major congratulations!!!! Will you work for yourself?
          What are your plans?

          It's late here too. Whenever.



          --- In therealpeta@yahoogroups.com, september_rain_33f
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Good Lord, it's going to take me hours to answer all of this ...
          and
          > I'm going to see "Finding Nemo" tonight, so I don't have time for
          it
          > all ... but, here's a start...
          >
          > Thank you for the congratulations on my graduation. I was
          attending
          > vet school, and am now a licensed veterinarian.
          >
          > It gets very complicated answering posts that are answers to
          posts,
          > but I'll try to make it as uncomplicated as possible:
          >
          > *************************
          > I said:
          > "Sounds like the same old stuff to me ... and I find it rather
          > offensive that I'm expected to read this long-winded, detailed
          drivel
          > from this guy when he brushes aside Animal Rightists' concerns
          about
          > animals used for human gain without looking at the details of the
          > issues."
          >
          > You said:
          > "What rain, there is no dribble posted on this board? Come on, you
          > don't use animals to your benefit?"
          >
          > I now say:
          > There is a lot of drivel posted to this board. That doesn't
          explain
          > why this guy expects me to read his detailed drivel while he
          doesn't
          > seem to pay attention to the details of the drivel of others. This
          > seems hypocritical to me, and I've found that it's not good to be
          > hypocritical when it comes to drivel. :)
          >
          > Anyway, where was it that I indicated that I don't use animals to
          my
          > benefit? I do use animals to my benefit, although I don't eat
          them.
          > And, my pets benefit me a lot, but I don't know if loving and
          caring
          > for my pets can really be termed "using" them. But you see, it is
          the
          > anti-AR community that likes to lump all of us animal protection
          > people into one big AR bucket. So, even if I claim to not be an
          > extremist, I will be labled one anyway. This will not keep me from
          > saying that we need to evaluate the issues individually and make
          > educated decisions.
          > ************************
          >
          > Okay, gotta run ... will type more later.
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