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Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky

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  • Steve Stubbs
    ... Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J. indicated he was a great fan of celibacy and hoped women could someday produce babies by
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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      --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
      > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time

      Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J.
      indicated he was a great fan of "celibacy" and hoped women could
      someday produce babies by "occult" means so heterosexual activity
      could be eliminated. I always wondered why he was so negative. Now
      it appears he was Leadbeater's homosexual lover. Another hidden
      agenda in Theosophical history gets exposed to full view.

      > Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
      can be taken on his word alone.

      Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
      embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
      HPB.
    • Daniel H. Caldwell
      Gregory Tillett wrote: Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone. Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett s
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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        Gregory Tillett wrote:

        "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
        can be taken on his word alone."

        Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:

        "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
        embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
        HPB."

        But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
        pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
        want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!

        I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
        Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."

        OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
        pathological liar." Right?

        Daniel H. Caldwell
        BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
        http://hpb.cc
      • Steve Stubbs
        ... As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett s
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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          --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
          > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
          > pathological liar." Right?

          As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
          various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
          Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
          be a competent one.

          I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
          questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
          would give.
        • Daniel H. Caldwell
          I wrote: OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB a pathological liar. Right? Steve replied: As I have said before, I am not an
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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            I wrote:

            "OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB 'a
            pathological liar.' Right?"

            Steve replied:

            "As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
            various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
            Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
            be a competent one."

            "I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
            questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
            would give."

            Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a
            pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
            liar?

            Daniel H. Caldwell
            BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
            http://hpb.cc
          • Steve Stubbs
            ... a ... Let me say it again: YES.
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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              --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
              > Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was
              a
              > pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
              > liar?

              Let me say it again: YES.
            • netemara888
              ... *********** I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading Sven Eck s book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar deserves a
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                > Gregory Tillett wrote:
                >
                > "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
                > can be taken on his word alone."
                >
                > Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:
                >
                > "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
                > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
                > HPB."
                >
                > But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
                > pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
                > want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!
                >
                > I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
                > Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."
                >
                > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
                > pathological liar." Right?
                >
                > Daniel H. Caldwell
                > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                > http://hpb.cc

                ***********

                I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading
                Sven Eck's book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar
                deserves a second look in terms of the main occult transmitter of the
                letters. He was the man!!! He and HPB lived on intimate terms, along
                with HSO at the Crow's Nest and he was a walking telegraph this man.
                I think he has been described as such too. They were in cohots if
                there was anything shaddy going on, but I think anything genuine had
                Damodar's stamp on it, and he may have allowed HPB to take credit for
                some of his successful transmissions. That's how close I think they
                were. Next, they will be saying she had the man killed!!!!

                But my comment is to this about HPB being a liar. I think she told an
                outright lie when she denied that Damodar was not found dead, or
                frozen to death on the way to Tibet. I have always felt that it was a
                true story, that he met his death when he left for the Himalayas.
                What do you think about that? I found her statements in Eck's book
                where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                Netemara
              • Steve Stubbs
                ... If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a painful reality?
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                  --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                  > I found her statements in Eck's book
                  > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                  > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                  > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                  If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                  painful reality?
                • netemara888
                  ... death ... ********* Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that s why I mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                    --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" <stevestubbs@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                    > > I found her statements in Eck's book
                    > > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his
                    death
                    > > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                    > > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?
                    >
                    > If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                    > painful reality?

                    *********

                    Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that's why I
                    mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID not
                    want to face he was gone and that she was given, had to have heard
                    something I KNOW, and still wrote that this information was lies. She
                    called the info she received lies. That's a hard one to call. They
                    had karmic ties going way back. But I think she was looking out for
                    her baby too: The TS. If she thought that DKM's death and manner of
                    death was talked about and spread about the world it would not bode
                    well for her influence and the masters THEY revered. Final answer....

                    Netemara
                  • Daniel H. Caldwell
                    In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence of the Masters he had to undergo the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                      In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:

                      "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence
                      of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                      neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                      doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                      upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                      suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                      prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                      from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.

                      Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                      were unknown.

                      Daniel H. Caldwell
                      BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                      http://hpb.cc
                    • netemara888
                      ... presence ... *********** Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 14, 2002
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                        --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                        > In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:
                        >
                        > "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the
                        presence
                        > of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                        > neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                        > doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                        > upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                        > suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                        > prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                        > from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.
                        >
                        > Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                        > were unknown.
                        >
                        > Daniel H. Caldwell
                        > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                        > http://hpb.cc

                        ***********
                        Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these
                        posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this letter. I
                        am not saying only DKM and HPB did all the letters I am saying they
                        did them in some sort of unholy alliance, which is not my
                        characterization but that of others.

                        What did he do that was so awful bad? I focus on HPB so much I have
                        not given this much thought. What did I miss? Is it all about the
                        forgeries? I know he did a lot, but is that really it? My research
                        tells me it is was karmic payback, not from that lifetime of foibles
                        and sins so much, but from other lives of much deeper sins, that I am
                        still tracing.

                        What the heck did he do from historical standpoint that was so bad?
                        And what is your opinion of what happened to Damodar, Daniel? I think
                        he died right after he left..

                        Netemara

                        BTW Thanks for the new info

                        ***********
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