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To Dr. Gregory Tillett.

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  • brianmuehlbach
    What is your view on the Mahatmas/Masters as identified/portraid by Blavatsky ? =
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 12, 2002
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      What is your view on the "Mahatmas/Masters" as identified/portraid by
      Blavatsky ?
      =
      Brian.

      --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
      > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue
      Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary
      to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after
      HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s circle²? Clearly,
      it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES;
      membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those
      named. Why was he not a member of either of these two groups?
      > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support
      any intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which
      there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.
      Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to
      England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there
      was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest
      any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton
      Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever
      referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had never
      seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life. Leadbeater¹s
      own accounts of his life at that period make no reference to or claim of
      a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his history well after H=
      PB
      ¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London Lodge, and
      a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was tension, if
      not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and the
      Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to
      make contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in
      effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
      > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no
      claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his
      accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters
      to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
      > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that
      Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the
      evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special
      relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
      > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of ³
      The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by historical
      evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously
      enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater.
      She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies either that she did
      not even correctly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly
      English joke at his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or
      personal relationship. As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who
      make them should present evidence, not mere assertions in the absence
      of evidence. Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar,
      nothing can be taken on his word alone.
      >
      > Dr Gregory Tillett
    • Steve Stubbs
      ... Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J. indicated he was a great fan of celibacy and hoped women could someday produce babies by
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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        --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
        > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time

        Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J.
        indicated he was a great fan of "celibacy" and hoped women could
        someday produce babies by "occult" means so heterosexual activity
        could be eliminated. I always wondered why he was so negative. Now
        it appears he was Leadbeater's homosexual lover. Another hidden
        agenda in Theosophical history gets exposed to full view.

        > Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
        can be taken on his word alone.

        Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
        embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
        HPB.
      • Daniel H. Caldwell
        Gregory Tillett wrote: Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone. Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett s
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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          Gregory Tillett wrote:

          "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
          can be taken on his word alone."

          Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:

          "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
          embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
          HPB."

          But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
          pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
          want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!

          I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
          Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."

          OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
          pathological liar." Right?

          Daniel H. Caldwell
          BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
          http://hpb.cc
        • Steve Stubbs
          ... As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett s
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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            --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
            > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
            > pathological liar." Right?

            As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
            various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
            Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
            be a competent one.

            I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
            questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
            would give.
          • Daniel H. Caldwell
            I wrote: OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB a pathological liar. Right? Steve replied: As I have said before, I am not an
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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              I wrote:

              "OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB 'a
              pathological liar.' Right?"

              Steve replied:

              "As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
              various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
              Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
              be a competent one."

              "I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
              questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
              would give."

              Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a
              pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
              liar?

              Daniel H. Caldwell
              BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
              http://hpb.cc
            • Steve Stubbs
              ... a ... Let me say it again: YES.
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                > Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was
                a
                > pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
                > liar?

                Let me say it again: YES.
              • netemara888
                ... *********** I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading Sven Eck s book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar deserves a
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                  --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                  > Gregory Tillett wrote:
                  >
                  > "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
                  > can be taken on his word alone."
                  >
                  > Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:
                  >
                  > "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
                  > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
                  > HPB."
                  >
                  > But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
                  > pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
                  > want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!
                  >
                  > I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
                  > Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."
                  >
                  > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
                  > pathological liar." Right?
                  >
                  > Daniel H. Caldwell
                  > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                  > http://hpb.cc

                  ***********

                  I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading
                  Sven Eck's book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar
                  deserves a second look in terms of the main occult transmitter of the
                  letters. He was the man!!! He and HPB lived on intimate terms, along
                  with HSO at the Crow's Nest and he was a walking telegraph this man.
                  I think he has been described as such too. They were in cohots if
                  there was anything shaddy going on, but I think anything genuine had
                  Damodar's stamp on it, and he may have allowed HPB to take credit for
                  some of his successful transmissions. That's how close I think they
                  were. Next, they will be saying she had the man killed!!!!

                  But my comment is to this about HPB being a liar. I think she told an
                  outright lie when she denied that Damodar was not found dead, or
                  frozen to death on the way to Tibet. I have always felt that it was a
                  true story, that he met his death when he left for the Himalayas.
                  What do you think about that? I found her statements in Eck's book
                  where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                  and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                  (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                  Netemara
                • Steve Stubbs
                  ... If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a painful reality?
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                    --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                    > I found her statements in Eck's book
                    > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                    > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                    > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                    If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                    painful reality?
                  • netemara888
                    ... death ... ********* Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that s why I mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                      --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" <stevestubbs@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                      > > I found her statements in Eck's book
                      > > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his
                      death
                      > > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                      > > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?
                      >
                      > If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                      > painful reality?

                      *********

                      Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that's why I
                      mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID not
                      want to face he was gone and that she was given, had to have heard
                      something I KNOW, and still wrote that this information was lies. She
                      called the info she received lies. That's a hard one to call. They
                      had karmic ties going way back. But I think she was looking out for
                      her baby too: The TS. If she thought that DKM's death and manner of
                      death was talked about and spread about the world it would not bode
                      well for her influence and the masters THEY revered. Final answer....

                      Netemara
                    • Daniel H. Caldwell
                      In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence of the Masters he had to undergo the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                        In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:

                        "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence
                        of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                        neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                        doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                        upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                        suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                        prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                        from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.

                        Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                        were unknown.

                        Daniel H. Caldwell
                        BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                        http://hpb.cc
                      • netemara888
                        ... presence ... *********** Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 14, 2002
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                          --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                          > In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:
                          >
                          > "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the
                          presence
                          > of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                          > neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                          > doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                          > upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                          > suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                          > prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                          > from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.
                          >
                          > Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                          > were unknown.
                          >
                          > Daniel H. Caldwell
                          > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                          > http://hpb.cc

                          ***********
                          Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these
                          posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this letter. I
                          am not saying only DKM and HPB did all the letters I am saying they
                          did them in some sort of unholy alliance, which is not my
                          characterization but that of others.

                          What did he do that was so awful bad? I focus on HPB so much I have
                          not given this much thought. What did I miss? Is it all about the
                          forgeries? I know he did a lot, but is that really it? My research
                          tells me it is was karmic payback, not from that lifetime of foibles
                          and sins so much, but from other lives of much deeper sins, that I am
                          still tracing.

                          What the heck did he do from historical standpoint that was so bad?
                          And what is your opinion of what happened to Damodar, Daniel? I think
                          he died right after he left..

                          Netemara

                          BTW Thanks for the new info

                          ***********
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