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Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky

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  • netemara888
    I have been reading about the TS as a group of personalities for 30 years now, and combined with my intuition I never thought there was any connection of
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 11, 2002
      I have been reading about the TS as a group of personalities for 30
      years now, and combined with my intuition I never thought there was
      any connection of substance between HPB and WCL. And as we know HPB
      is not shy. If she had some substantial dealings with WCL and that
      group...it would be documented somewhere. No way did she give WCL the
      Voice. I have read all of ODL by Olcott and that is the real
      historian of the group. While he had more of a relationship with
      Annie who was involved with WLC and others, even he mentions WLC
      little if at all. I think there was a strain, but probably suspect
      that the interests of the two groups were probably splintered which
      happens all the time in these groups.

      Just like one yahoo group grows out of another one. There is no
      hostility there necessarily just people exploring their interests in
      more depth. Now, we know that WLC did have an interest in having
      young men follow him and vice versa, plus his spiritists interest.
      There is a great deal spoken about the relationship between WLC and
      Krishnamurti in the books about K's life. That is good source
      actually. Luckily K and his brother were not part of WLC's entourage
      as far as emotionally. K said he did not like WLC but loved Red
      Annie....

      Netemara

      **************

      --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
      > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue
      Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is
      contrary to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of
      course) after HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s
      circle²? Clearly, it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of
      the IG of the ES; membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was
      not among those named. Why was he not a member of either of these two
      groups?
      > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support any
      intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which
      there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.
      Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to
      England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there
      was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest
      any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton
      Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever
      referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had
      never seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life.
      Leadbeater¹s own accounts of his life at that period make no
      reference to or claim of a special relationship with HPB - until he
      revised his history well after HPB¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a
      member of the London Lodge, and a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at
      a time when there was tension, if not conflict, between Sinnett and
      the London Lodge, and HPB and the Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted
      as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to make contact with the Masters, and
      was a member of what was, in effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
      > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no
      claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his
      accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters
      to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
      > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that
      Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the
      evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special
      relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
      > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of
      ³The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by
      historical evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain;
      curiously enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly
      name Leadbeater. She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies
      either that she did not even correctly recall his name, or that she
      was making a peculiarly English joke at his expense. Neither
      explanation suggests a close or personal relationship. As with all
      claims about Leadbeater, those who make them should present evidence,
      not mere assertions in the absence of evidence. Given that Leadbeater
      was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word
      alone.
      >
      > Dr Gregory Tillett
    • brianmuehlbach
      What is your view on the Mahatmas/Masters as identified/portraid by Blavatsky ? =
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 12, 2002
        What is your view on the "Mahatmas/Masters" as identified/portraid by
        Blavatsky ?
        =
        Brian.

        --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
        > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue
        Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary
        to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after
        HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s circle²? Clearly,
        it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES;
        membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those
        named. Why was he not a member of either of these two groups?
        > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support
        any intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which
        there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.
        Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to
        England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there
        was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest
        any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton
        Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever
        referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had never
        seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life. Leadbeater¹s
        own accounts of his life at that period make no reference to or claim of
        a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his history well after H=
        PB
        ¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London Lodge, and
        a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was tension, if
        not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and the
        Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to
        make contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in
        effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
        > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no
        claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his
        accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters
        to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
        > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that
        Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the
        evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special
        relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
        > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of ³
        The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by historical
        evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously
        enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater.
        She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies either that she did
        not even correctly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly
        English joke at his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or
        personal relationship. As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who
        make them should present evidence, not mere assertions in the absence
        of evidence. Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar,
        nothing can be taken on his word alone.
        >
        > Dr Gregory Tillett
      • Steve Stubbs
        ... Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J. indicated he was a great fan of celibacy and hoped women could someday produce babies by
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
          --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
          > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time

          Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J.
          indicated he was a great fan of "celibacy" and hoped women could
          someday produce babies by "occult" means so heterosexual activity
          could be eliminated. I always wondered why he was so negative. Now
          it appears he was Leadbeater's homosexual lover. Another hidden
          agenda in Theosophical history gets exposed to full view.

          > Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
          can be taken on his word alone.

          Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
          embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
          HPB.
        • Daniel H. Caldwell
          Gregory Tillett wrote: Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone. Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett s
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
            Gregory Tillett wrote:

            "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
            can be taken on his word alone."

            Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:

            "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
            embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
            HPB."

            But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
            pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
            want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!

            I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
            Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."

            OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
            pathological liar." Right?

            Daniel H. Caldwell
            BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
            http://hpb.cc
          • Steve Stubbs
            ... As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett s
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
              --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
              > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
              > pathological liar." Right?

              As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
              various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
              Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
              be a competent one.

              I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
              questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
              would give.
            • Daniel H. Caldwell
              I wrote: OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB a pathological liar. Right? Steve replied: As I have said before, I am not an
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                I wrote:

                "OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB 'a
                pathological liar.' Right?"

                Steve replied:

                "As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
                various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
                Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
                be a competent one."

                "I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
                questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
                would give."

                Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a
                pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
                liar?

                Daniel H. Caldwell
                BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                http://hpb.cc
              • Steve Stubbs
                ... a ... Let me say it again: YES.
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                  --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                  > Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was
                  a
                  > pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
                  > liar?

                  Let me say it again: YES.
                • netemara888
                  ... *********** I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading Sven Eck s book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar deserves a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                    --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                    > Gregory Tillett wrote:
                    >
                    > "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
                    > can be taken on his word alone."
                    >
                    > Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:
                    >
                    > "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
                    > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
                    > HPB."
                    >
                    > But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
                    > pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
                    > want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!
                    >
                    > I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
                    > Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."
                    >
                    > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
                    > pathological liar." Right?
                    >
                    > Daniel H. Caldwell
                    > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                    > http://hpb.cc

                    ***********

                    I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading
                    Sven Eck's book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar
                    deserves a second look in terms of the main occult transmitter of the
                    letters. He was the man!!! He and HPB lived on intimate terms, along
                    with HSO at the Crow's Nest and he was a walking telegraph this man.
                    I think he has been described as such too. They were in cohots if
                    there was anything shaddy going on, but I think anything genuine had
                    Damodar's stamp on it, and he may have allowed HPB to take credit for
                    some of his successful transmissions. That's how close I think they
                    were. Next, they will be saying she had the man killed!!!!

                    But my comment is to this about HPB being a liar. I think she told an
                    outright lie when she denied that Damodar was not found dead, or
                    frozen to death on the way to Tibet. I have always felt that it was a
                    true story, that he met his death when he left for the Himalayas.
                    What do you think about that? I found her statements in Eck's book
                    where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                    and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                    (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                    Netemara
                  • Steve Stubbs
                    ... If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a painful reality?
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                      --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                      > I found her statements in Eck's book
                      > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                      > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                      > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                      If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                      painful reality?
                    • netemara888
                      ... death ... ********* Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that s why I mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                        --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" <stevestubbs@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                        > > I found her statements in Eck's book
                        > > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his
                        death
                        > > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                        > > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?
                        >
                        > If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                        > painful reality?

                        *********

                        Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that's why I
                        mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID not
                        want to face he was gone and that she was given, had to have heard
                        something I KNOW, and still wrote that this information was lies. She
                        called the info she received lies. That's a hard one to call. They
                        had karmic ties going way back. But I think she was looking out for
                        her baby too: The TS. If she thought that DKM's death and manner of
                        death was talked about and spread about the world it would not bode
                        well for her influence and the masters THEY revered. Final answer....

                        Netemara
                      • Daniel H. Caldwell
                        In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence of the Masters he had to undergo the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
                          In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:

                          "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence
                          of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                          neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                          doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                          upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                          suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                          prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                          from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.

                          Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                          were unknown.

                          Daniel H. Caldwell
                          BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                          http://hpb.cc
                        • netemara888
                          ... presence ... *********** Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 14, 2002
                            --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                            > In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:
                            >
                            > "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the
                            presence
                            > of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                            > neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                            > doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                            > upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                            > suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                            > prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                            > from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.
                            >
                            > Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                            > were unknown.
                            >
                            > Daniel H. Caldwell
                            > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                            > http://hpb.cc

                            ***********
                            Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these
                            posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this letter. I
                            am not saying only DKM and HPB did all the letters I am saying they
                            did them in some sort of unholy alliance, which is not my
                            characterization but that of others.

                            What did he do that was so awful bad? I focus on HPB so much I have
                            not given this much thought. What did I miss? Is it all about the
                            forgeries? I know he did a lot, but is that really it? My research
                            tells me it is was karmic payback, not from that lifetime of foibles
                            and sins so much, but from other lives of much deeper sins, that I am
                            still tracing.

                            What the heck did he do from historical standpoint that was so bad?
                            And what is your opinion of what happened to Damodar, Daniel? I think
                            he died right after he left..

                            Netemara

                            BTW Thanks for the new info

                            ***********
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