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Leadbeater & Blavatsky

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  • gregory@zeta.org.au
    The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary to such evidence as
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 10, 2002
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      The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s circle²? Clearly, it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES; membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those named. Why was he not a member of either of these two groups?
      No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support any intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship. Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had never seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life. Leadbeater¹s own accounts of his life at that period make no reference to or claim of a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his history well after HPB¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London Lodge, and a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was tension, if not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and the Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to make contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
      Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
      Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
      The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of ³The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by historical evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater. She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies either that she did not even correctly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly English joke at his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or personal relationship. As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who make them should present evidence, not mere assertions in the absence of evidence. Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone.

      Dr Gregory Tillett
    • netemara888
      I have been reading about the TS as a group of personalities for 30 years now, and combined with my intuition I never thought there was any connection of
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 11, 2002
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        I have been reading about the TS as a group of personalities for 30
        years now, and combined with my intuition I never thought there was
        any connection of substance between HPB and WCL. And as we know HPB
        is not shy. If she had some substantial dealings with WCL and that
        group...it would be documented somewhere. No way did she give WCL the
        Voice. I have read all of ODL by Olcott and that is the real
        historian of the group. While he had more of a relationship with
        Annie who was involved with WLC and others, even he mentions WLC
        little if at all. I think there was a strain, but probably suspect
        that the interests of the two groups were probably splintered which
        happens all the time in these groups.

        Just like one yahoo group grows out of another one. There is no
        hostility there necessarily just people exploring their interests in
        more depth. Now, we know that WLC did have an interest in having
        young men follow him and vice versa, plus his spiritists interest.
        There is a great deal spoken about the relationship between WLC and
        Krishnamurti in the books about K's life. That is good source
        actually. Luckily K and his brother were not part of WLC's entourage
        as far as emotionally. K said he did not like WLC but loved Red
        Annie....

        Netemara

        **************

        --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
        > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue
        Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is
        contrary to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of
        course) after HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s
        circle²? Clearly, it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of
        the IG of the ES; membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was
        not among those named. Why was he not a member of either of these two
        groups?
        > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support any
        intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which
        there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.
        Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to
        England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there
        was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest
        any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton
        Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever
        referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had
        never seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life.
        Leadbeater¹s own accounts of his life at that period make no
        reference to or claim of a special relationship with HPB - until he
        revised his history well after HPB¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a
        member of the London Lodge, and a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at
        a time when there was tension, if not conflict, between Sinnett and
        the London Lodge, and HPB and the Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted
        as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to make contact with the Masters, and
        was a member of what was, in effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
        > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no
        claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his
        accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters
        to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
        > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that
        Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the
        evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special
        relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
        > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of
        ³The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by
        historical evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain;
        curiously enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly
        name Leadbeater. She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies
        either that she did not even correctly recall his name, or that she
        was making a peculiarly English joke at his expense. Neither
        explanation suggests a close or personal relationship. As with all
        claims about Leadbeater, those who make them should present evidence,
        not mere assertions in the absence of evidence. Given that Leadbeater
        was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word
        alone.
        >
        > Dr Gregory Tillett
      • brianmuehlbach
        What is your view on the Mahatmas/Masters as identified/portraid by Blavatsky ? =
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 12, 2002
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          What is your view on the "Mahatmas/Masters" as identified/portraid by
          Blavatsky ?
          =
          Brian.

          --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
          > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue
          Road² both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary
          to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after
          HPB¹s death. What is meant by ³a member of HPB¹s circle²? Clearly,
          it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES;
          membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those
          named. Why was he not a member of either of these two groups?
          > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support
          any intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which
          there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.
          Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to
          England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there
          was no evidence in any of HPB¹s papers or correspondence to suggest
          any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton
          Cleather, a member of HPB¹s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever
          referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had never
          seen him at the London headquarters during HPB¹s life. Leadbeater¹s
          own accounts of his life at that period make no reference to or claim of
          a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his history well after H=
          PB
          ¹s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London Lodge, and
          a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was tension, if
          not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and the
          Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett¹s quest to
          make contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in
          effect, Sinnett¹s ³Inner Group².
          > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no
          claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his
          accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa¹s ³K.H.Letters
          to C.W.Leadbeater², 1943:68-69.
          > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that
          Leadbeater was a member of ³HPB¹s circle in Avenue Road², and the
          evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater¹s special
          relationship is obliged to present their evidence.
          > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the ³first copy² of ³
          The Voice of the Silence² is similarly entirely unsupported by historical
          evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously
          enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater.
          She inscribed it to ³W.C.Leadbeater². This implies either that she did
          not even correctly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly
          English joke at his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or
          personal relationship. As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who
          make them should present evidence, not mere assertions in the absence
          of evidence. Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar,
          nothing can be taken on his word alone.
          >
          > Dr Gregory Tillett
        • Steve Stubbs
          ... Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J. indicated he was a great fan of celibacy and hoped women could someday produce babies by
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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            --- In theos-talk@y..., <gregory@z...> wrote:
            > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time

            Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J.
            indicated he was a great fan of "celibacy" and hoped women could
            someday produce babies by "occult" means so heterosexual activity
            could be eliminated. I always wondered why he was so negative. Now
            it appears he was Leadbeater's homosexual lover. Another hidden
            agenda in Theosophical history gets exposed to full view.

            > Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
            can be taken on his word alone.

            Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
            embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
            HPB.
          • Daniel H. Caldwell
            Gregory Tillett wrote: Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone. Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett s
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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              Gregory Tillett wrote:

              "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
              can be taken on his word alone."

              Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:

              "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
              embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
              HPB."

              But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
              pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
              want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!

              I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
              Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."

              OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
              pathological liar." Right?

              Daniel H. Caldwell
              BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
              http://hpb.cc
            • Steve Stubbs
              ... As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett s
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
                > pathological liar." Right?

                As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
                various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
                Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
                be a competent one.

                I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
                questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
                would give.
              • Daniel H. Caldwell
                I wrote: OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB a pathological liar. Right? Steve replied: As I have said before, I am not an
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                  I wrote:

                  "OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB 'a
                  pathological liar.' Right?"

                  Steve replied:

                  "As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for
                  various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr.
                  Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to
                  be a competent one."

                  "I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the
                  questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they
                  would give."

                  Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a
                  pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
                  liar?

                  Daniel H. Caldwell
                  BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                  http://hpb.cc
                • Steve Stubbs
                  ... a ... Let me say it again: YES.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                    --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                    > Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was
                    a
                    > pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological
                    > liar?

                    Let me say it again: YES.
                  • netemara888
                    ... *********** I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading Sven Eck s book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar deserves a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                      --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                      > Gregory Tillett wrote:
                      >
                      > "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing
                      > can be taken on his word alone."
                      >
                      > Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement:
                      >
                      > "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely
                      > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of
                      > HPB."
                      >
                      > But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a
                      > pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not
                      > want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either!
                      >
                      > I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and
                      > Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar."
                      >
                      > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a
                      > pathological liar." Right?
                      >
                      > Daniel H. Caldwell
                      > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                      > http://hpb.cc

                      ***********

                      I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading
                      Sven Eck's book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar
                      deserves a second look in terms of the main occult transmitter of the
                      letters. He was the man!!! He and HPB lived on intimate terms, along
                      with HSO at the Crow's Nest and he was a walking telegraph this man.
                      I think he has been described as such too. They were in cohots if
                      there was anything shaddy going on, but I think anything genuine had
                      Damodar's stamp on it, and he may have allowed HPB to take credit for
                      some of his successful transmissions. That's how close I think they
                      were. Next, they will be saying she had the man killed!!!!

                      But my comment is to this about HPB being a liar. I think she told an
                      outright lie when she denied that Damodar was not found dead, or
                      frozen to death on the way to Tibet. I have always felt that it was a
                      true story, that he met his death when he left for the Himalayas.
                      What do you think about that? I found her statements in Eck's book
                      where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                      and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                      (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                      Netemara
                    • Steve Stubbs
                      ... If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a painful reality?
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                        --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                        > I found her statements in Eck's book
                        > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death
                        > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                        > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?

                        If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                        painful reality?
                      • netemara888
                        ... death ... ********* Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that s why I mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                          --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" <stevestubbs@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" <netemara888@y...> wrote:
                          > > I found her statements in Eck's book
                          > > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his
                          death
                          > > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie."
                          > > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you?
                          >
                          > If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a
                          > painful reality?

                          *********

                          Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that's why I
                          mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID not
                          want to face he was gone and that she was given, had to have heard
                          something I KNOW, and still wrote that this information was lies. She
                          called the info she received lies. That's a hard one to call. They
                          had karmic ties going way back. But I think she was looking out for
                          her baby too: The TS. If she thought that DKM's death and manner of
                          death was talked about and spread about the world it would not bode
                          well for her influence and the masters THEY revered. Final answer....

                          Netemara
                        • Daniel H. Caldwell
                          In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence of the Masters he had to undergo the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 13, 2002
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                            In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:

                            "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence
                            of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                            neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                            doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                            upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                            suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                            prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                            from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.

                            Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                            were unknown.

                            Daniel H. Caldwell
                            BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                            http://hpb.cc
                          • netemara888
                            ... presence ... *********** Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 14, 2002
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                              --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
                              > In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott:
                              >
                              > "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the
                              presence
                              > of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a
                              > neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable
                              > doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace
                              > upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical
                              > suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite
                              > prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters
                              > from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29.
                              >
                              > Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts
                              > were unknown.
                              >
                              > Daniel H. Caldwell
                              > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                              > http://hpb.cc

                              ***********
                              Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these
                              posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this letter. I
                              am not saying only DKM and HPB did all the letters I am saying they
                              did them in some sort of unholy alliance, which is not my
                              characterization but that of others.

                              What did he do that was so awful bad? I focus on HPB so much I have
                              not given this much thought. What did I miss? Is it all about the
                              forgeries? I know he did a lot, but is that really it? My research
                              tells me it is was karmic payback, not from that lifetime of foibles
                              and sins so much, but from other lives of much deeper sins, that I am
                              still tracing.

                              What the heck did he do from historical standpoint that was so bad?
                              And what is your opinion of what happened to Damodar, Daniel? I think
                              he died right after he left..

                              Netemara

                              BTW Thanks for the new info

                              ***********
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