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  • Mark Jaqua
    I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier s The Judge Case for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 25, 2013
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      I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge Case" for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:

      http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php

      This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally $95, and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new" information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because lost in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical Quarterly" in this case.
      Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they secured a small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines like Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's "Theosophical Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices, except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons and Big enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or other strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is putting PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but formated so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)

      - jake j.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Jaqua
      I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier s The Judge Case for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 25, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge Case" for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:

        http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php

        This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally $95, and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new" information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because lost in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical Quarterly" in this case.
        Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they secured a small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines like Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's "Theosophical Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices, except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons and Big enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or other strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is putting PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but formated so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)

        - jake j.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • .:.
        One is amazed at the enormous amount of research and writing and editing that went into it. This offer (cost includes shipping, which is expensive) has been
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 25, 2013
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          One is amazed at the enormous amount of research and writing and editing
          that went into it.

          This offer (cost includes shipping, which is expensive) has been going on
          for quite some time and is a very good deal. The book is voluminous and if
          you do not want to carry it around. Try it and you will soon abandon it.

          I wish it is put out as a pdf file for free download. Once converted to
          pdf, one can easily print out the pages one wants. It would see a very wide
          and quick distribution around the world.

          Not much effort is needed for conversion and can be done in days, not
          months and at almost no expense as theosophical volunteers can be found.
          Just post a msg here.

          MKR



          *MKR*


          On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge Case"
          > for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
          >
          > http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php
          >
          > This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just
          > overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally $95,
          > and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new"
          > information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because lost
          > in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical Quarterly"
          > in this case.
          > Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented
          > Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they secured a
          > small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines like
          > Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's "Theosophical
          > Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an
          > inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices,
          > except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's
          > "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of
          > "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons and Big
          > enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or other
          > strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is putting
          > PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but formated
          > so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)
          >
          > - jake j.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • proto37
          I hesitate to pick it up and start reading some, because I can get lost for an hour paging around and cross-referencing. Yes a pdf would be nice (maybe you
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 26, 2013
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            I hesitate to pick it up and start reading some, because I can get lost for an hour paging around and cross-referencing. Yes a pdf would be nice (maybe you should volunteer to do it! ha) but the book will last 200 yrs. while the internet may dissappear someday at the speed of light. I remember a number of years back "cascading effects" when a tree limb shorted out on a power line in Cleveland, the whole East Coast blacked out for days.
            - jake j.

            --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ".:." <mkr777@...> wrote:
            >
            > One is amazed at the enormous amount of research and writing and editing
            > that went into it.
            >
            > This offer (cost includes shipping, which is expensive) has been going on
            > for quite some time and is a very good deal. The book is voluminous and if
            > you do not want to carry it around. Try it and you will soon abandon it.
            >
            > I wish it is put out as a pdf file for free download. Once converted to
            > pdf, one can easily print out the pages one wants. It would see a very wide
            > and quick distribution around the world.
            >
            > Not much effort is needed for conversion and can be done in days, not
            > months and at almost no expense as theosophical volunteers can be found.
            > Just post a msg here.
            >
            > MKR
            >
            >
            >
            > *MKR*
            >
            >
            > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge Case"
            > > for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
            > >
            > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php
            > >
            > > This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just
            > > overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally $95,
            > > and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new"
            > > information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because lost
            > > in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical Quarterly"
            > > in this case.
            > > Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented
            > > Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they secured a
            > > small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines like
            > > Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's "Theosophical
            > > Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an
            > > inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices,
            > > except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's
            > > "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of
            > > "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons and Big
            > > enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or other
            > > strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is putting
            > > PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but formated
            > > so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)
            > >
            > > - jake j.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • .:.
            The book is very heavy and I agree a pdf would make is more convenient to handle. Also, if anyone wants quote any part of the book in a discussion or paper, a
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 26, 2013
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              The book is very heavy and I agree a pdf would make is more convenient to
              handle. Also, if anyone wants quote any part of the book in a discussion or
              paper, a pdf is the most efficient way.

              My offer still stands good. The book can be online in days!!!!

              MKR

              *MKR*


              On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 8:06 AM, proto37 <hozro@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > I hesitate to pick it up and start reading some, because I can get lost
              > for an hour paging around and cross-referencing. Yes a pdf would be nice
              > (maybe you should volunteer to do it! ha) but the book will last 200 yrs.
              > while the internet may dissappear someday at the speed of light. I remember
              > a number of years back "cascading effects" when a tree limb shorted out on
              > a power line in Cleveland, the whole East Coast blacked out for days.
              > - jake j.
              >
              > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ".:." <mkr777@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > One is amazed at the enormous amount of research and writing and editing
              > > that went into it.
              > >
              > > This offer (cost includes shipping, which is expensive) has been going on
              > > for quite some time and is a very good deal. The book is voluminous and
              > if
              > > you do not want to carry it around. Try it and you will soon abandon it.
              > >
              > > I wish it is put out as a pdf file for free download. Once converted to
              > > pdf, one can easily print out the pages one wants. It would see a very
              > wide
              > > and quick distribution around the world.
              > >
              > > Not much effort is needed for conversion and can be done in days, not
              > > months and at almost no expense as theosophical volunteers can be found.
              > > Just post a msg here.
              > >
              > > MKR
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > *MKR*
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge
              > Case"
              > > > for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php
              > > >
              > > > This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just
              > > > overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally
              > $95,
              > > > and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new"
              > > > information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because
              > lost
              > > > in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical
              > Quarterly"
              > > > in this case.
              > > > Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented
              > > > Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they
              > secured a
              > > > small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines
              > like
              > > > Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's
              > "Theosophical
              > > > Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an
              > > > inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices,
              > > > except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's
              > > > "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of
              > > > "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons
              > and Big
              > > > enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or
              > other
              > > > strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is
              > putting
              > > > PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but
              > formated
              > > > so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)
              > > >
              > > > - jake j.
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • M. Sufilight
              Dear Mark and all readers My views are: Sometimes I wonder what the best short summary of the Judge Case actually might be - here online the Internet for
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 29, 2013
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                Dear Mark and all readers

                My views are:

                Sometimes I wonder what the best short summary of the "Judge Case" actually might be - here online the Internet for free?
                Perhaps some of you who know about the details are able to point such an online article or online book out?

                _______

                Here are a few quotes from selected articles which is about the genuineness of the Mahatma Letters etc., etc....


                Here is at first one to consider from W. Q. Judge and with a central quote by Blavatsky...

                *** 1 ***
                "H.P.B. ON MESSAGES FROM MASTERS" by W. Q. Judge
                (Path, July, 1895)
                http://www.blavatsky.net/theosophy/judge/articles/hpb-messages-masters.htm

                A very interesting whort article and quote.

                And we know that H. P. Blavatsky said that Franz Hartmann according to Blavatsky wrote false letters claimed ot be from the Mahatmas. And that Blavatsky rejected and despised this.
                We know Laura Holloway wrote letters as if they were from the Mahatmas, and that they later was shown to be false.

                So why did W. Q. Judge then have to resign?
                Was it because he was imprecise when forgetting to tell the readers that his letters from the Masters was psychically received and not received as actual letters?


                *** 2 ***
                LODGES OF MAGIC
                [Lucifer, Vol. III, No. 14, October, 1888, pp. 89-93]
                "We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be free to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem, from their contents and style, to be imitations. This is equivalent to saying that he has such an unerring spiritual insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though he has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test his alleged communications. The inevitable consequence of applying his untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make him as likely as not to declare false what was genuine, and genuine what was false. Thus what criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another such letter? "
                .......
                "The whole difficulty springs from the common tendency to draw conclusions from insufficient premises, and play the oracle before ridding oneself of that most stupefying of all psychic anaesthetics-IGNORANCE. "
                http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v10/y1888_075.htm


                _______

                *** 3 ***

                Vera Petrovna Jelihovsky was sister of Blavatsky.

                VERA PETROVNA JELIHOVSKV wrote a letter (published March 1895 in the journal the PATH):
                " Such was my train of thought, So, according to reason, I did my best to destroy
                the impression and to get rid of my strange feeling, the notion that I was obliged to warn
                her. But it gave me no rest; it positively obsessed and persecuted me!
                I felt a painful depression, accompanied by an ever increasing conviction
                that I had better act, as I was prompted to from the be-ginning, for such was my moral duty.

                At last I came to the conclusion that the consciousness under which I felt myself obliged to warn Mrs. Besant came from my sister; that it washer Will to keep Mrs. Besant from going to India and had no other possibility to act except through me. So I resolved to write to my daughter, Mrs. Vera Johnston, in London, asking her to transmit to Mrs. Besant my profound conviction it would not be safe for her to go over to India, or
                to mterfere with any other branch of the Theosophical Society elsewhere than in England, for I knew forsure that my sister Helen was against it,. After this I regained my peace of mind. Mrs. Besant's answer to my daughter was something to this effect:
                "Tell your mother I shall go were I to die there, because I am ordered to go."
                I thought then and there that she was mistaken (now I am sure of it!); that if she was really to perform the will of One whom my sister loved and venerated so devotedly, I would not have received so deep an impression to contradict her intention. If my warning was of no avail, I am glad it was not by my fault. I have done what I was bid to do,-so much the better for me. In case you think my statement has some value or importance for others
                than yourseif, dear Mr. 'Judge, I authorize you to print thIs letter of mine in
                THE PATH or elsewhere.

                Believe me
                sincerely yours,
                VERA PETROVNA JELIHOVSKV.

                HALLEIN, February 23d, I895.
                P.S.- I hope heartily this letter will find you in good health and spirits.
                It was mv wish for a long time to write you all this, and now I am very
                happy to have done it. Farewell, and good cheer to you and all those that are faithful to
                my poor, much-abused sister. V. P. J."

                (Page 25-26 in the journal or page 28-29 in the online version)
                http://www.scribd.com/doc/54255918/The-Path-Vol-10-April-1895-March-1896



                *** 4 ***
                From H.P. Blavatsky to W.Q. Judge
                Dated May 1, 1885
                " I was sick & dying and left alone day after day, Olcott being in Burmah, and Damodar, driven to despair by Hartmann's insults & intrigues having left Adyar & gone to Sikkhim to see the Avatar Lama, then just arrived & going with him to Tibet. Where he is now I do not know; but I hope he is happier than I am. Well the wiseacres having put their heads together, Hume decided to call the Gen. Council, and then gave Raganath Row & Subramanya Iyer a paper in which it was proposed that Olcott, I, Damodar, Anand, Bhawani Row, Nivarun[?] Babu, Mohini, etc. should be forced to resign since they believed or pretended to believe in non existing Masters & fraudulent phenomena, and the Society incorporated & entirely reformed under the mismanagement of Hume, Hartmann, the Oakeley's and a few Hindus. Dewan Bahadoor who was elected chairman, and all others: - (Subba Row, Sreenavas Row, Ramaiyer, Dewan Bahadoor especially Subramanya Iyer etc,) laughed the paper & proposal to scorn. They declared that they did not believe me guilty, that the Society without its President Founder, so long as the latter was alive was unthinkable, that, in short, they would never consent to enter in his absence into such a mean conspiracy against Olcott, & myself who was upstairs dying. They all came to me and the little plot fell to pieces. "
                http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbwqj01.htm


                Yet, I do not think that the Society from its beginning intended to pander to prejudices and fanatical stance with regard to the existence of Masters or the non-existence thereof, and a fanatical attitude in either regard.
                At least not when reading the Constitution and Rules for the Society in its early years 1875-1891 or so.





                M. Sufilight


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Mark Jaqua
                To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:01 PM
                Subject: theos-talk Biggest Book for Lowest Price



                I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge Case" for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:

                http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php

                This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally $95, and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new" information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because lost in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical Quarterly" in this case.
                Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they secured a small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines like Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's "Theosophical Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices, except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons and Big enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or other strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is putting PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but formated so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)

                - jake j.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carol Merritt
                THEOSOPHY and BUDDHISM:  In 1880, Buddhism in Ceylon was being swept away.   Ceylon was governed by Britain, missionaries were everywhere, and young people
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 29, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  THEOSOPHY and BUDDHISM: 

                  In 1880, Buddhism in Ceylon was being swept away.  
                  Ceylon was governed by Britain, missionaries were everywhere,
                  and young people who wanted to get ahead were converting
                  to Christianity.  All accredited schools had to begin the
                  day teaching one hour of Bible studies.  Buddhist
                  marriages were not recognized, and there were only 4
                  Buddhist schools in the whole country.

                  The first president of the Theosophical Society (TS)
                  was an American, Henry Olcott.  He spent several years
                  in Ceylon, traveling by oxcart from village to village,
                  teaching Buddhism and establishing Buddhist schools. 
                  He went briefly to England and met with government
                  officials to resolve some Buddhist-Christian issues. 
                  When he left Ceylon, there were nearly 200 Buddhist
                  schools. He also performed thousands of healings.

                  A quote from a biographer: "Each year on February 17,
                  Buddhists throughout Sri Lanka light brass lamps and
                  offer burning incense to commemorate the anniversary
                  of the death of an American-born Buddhist hero. In
                  Theravadan temples, saffron-robed monks bow down
                  before his photograph, and boys and girls in
                  schoolhouses across the country offer gifts in his
                  memory. May the merit we have gained by these good
                  deeds, they meditate, pass on to Colonel Olcott, and
                  may he gain happiness and peace." . . .

                  "Disinterested historians describe Henry Steel Olcott
                  as the president-founder of the Theosophical Society,
                  one of Americas first Buddhists, and an important
                  contributor to both the Indian Renaissance in India
                  and the Sinhalese Buddhist Revival in Ceylon (now Sri
                  Lanka). Less objective observers have allotted Olcott
                  an even more central place in sacred history. A prime
                  minister of Ceylon praised Olcott as one of the heroes
                  in the struggle for our independence and a pioneer of
                  the present religious, national, and cultural revival."
                  (The White Buddhist)
                  See also Murphet, "Yankee Beacon of Buddhist Light"
                   
                  THEOSOPHY and HINDUISM:
                   
                  India also governed by the British, and Hinduism was under
                  similar assault in India.

                  Our second president, Annie Besant, was British.  She
                  traveled India by train, and spoke to what Olcott called
                  "monster crowds", sometimes 5000-10000  people.  She taught
                  them the beauty of Hinduism while they stood in perfect
                  silence.  She founded two colleges.  One of them, Central
                  Hindu College, by 1950, had become the largest university
                  in India.  She was elected president of the Indian National
                  Congress.  It is possible that Ghandi wasconverting to
                  Christianity, because when he was a young lawyer in South
                  Africa, he always kept two pictures on his wall: Jesus and
                  Annie Besant. His biographers don't suggest this, but the
                  picture makes me wonder.  Thirteen year old Nehru was a
                  pupil in one of the schools, and was a member of the TS for
                  a few years until his political work took over his life.
                  Annie's Master was Morya, but she said that she got her
                  instructions from Rishi Agastya, the Adept in
                  charge of India, regarding what she should do for India. 
                  Rishi Agastya is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures. There
                  were two Indian practices that the Rishi wanted to eliminate:
                  1) Widow burning, and 2) the premature marriage of child-brides
                  The marriage age was raised to 16 in most districts.  Prior
                  to this, most Indian Theosophical families withheld their
                  daughters from early marriage, but they encountered prejudice,
                  as their neighbors assumed ther must be something wrong with
                  a 16-year-old girl who wasn't married. Widow-burning was outlawed
                  by the governing British.
                   
                  Here is the testimony of clairvoyant Geoffrey Hodson:
                  ". . .  in March of 1912 . . . I was delighted when I
                  saw advertised the fact that Dr Annie Besant was to
                  lecture . . . as I watched her, I saw what I came to
                  know was her aura, shining out from her far beyond
                  the walls of the building, filled with rich and
                  wonderful colors and radiating streams of benediction
                  to the world.  So great was the impact of this
                  experience that I immediately joined the Theosophical
                  Society. " (Light of the Sanctuary)
                  For more information, see Nethercot, "The Last Four Lives
                  of Annie Besant"

                  THEOSOPHY AND THE WEST
                  The Mahachohan urged Theosophists to popularize a knowledge
                  of Theosophy.  This has been accomplished to a remarkable
                  extent.  When the TS was founded, there were two major modes
                  of thought in the Western world, science and religion.  These
                  two were irreconcilably opposed to each other on many important
                  issues.  Today, there is a third mode of thought, which I will
                  call metaphysics.  Virtually everyone in the West understands
                  the concepts of reincarnation and karma, and millions believe it,
                  and have adapted their lives accordingly.  Millions more remain
                  firmly religious or scientific, but have added some bits of
                  metaphysics to their personal belief system.
                  Theosophy wasn't the only force in this change; there were Edgar
                  Cayce, Science of Mind and others.  But Theosophy was the most
                  significant.  After the American Section broke away, Annie Besant,
                  Charles Leadbeater and others made speaking tours in America
                  These lectures were often to overflow crowds, and a TS lodge was
                  often created immeadiately after the talk.  In Denver, for
                  example, more than 30 joined the same night of Besant's lecture. 
                  The next night, she spoke and created a lodge in Colorado Springs. 
                  A popular greeting of the time was, "How's your karma today?"  A
                  Chicago  newspaper ran a color section, explaining that this is
                  what the  astral body looks like, according to Mrs Besant.
                  But the largest influence seems to be the writings of Charles
                  Leadbeater.  Leadbeater's biographer, Gregory Tillett, says
                  "The modern occult movement owes more to [Charles Webster] Leadbeater
                  than to anyone else.... In almost all modern works on occultism
                  there are clear traces of his influences, often unacknowledged....
                  His concepts and ideas, his popularizing of Theosophical terms
                  and principles, run throughout all modern works in the area.  The
                  idea of reincarnation, and of investigations into life before birth
                  as much as life after death, ideas of 'reincarnational therapy' and
                  examinations of the akashic records derive directly from Leadbeater's
                  work"

                  OBSCURATION
                  Considering Theosophical history, you would expect that nearly every
                  Buddhist, Hindu and new-ager would be a member.  But there seems to be
                  a spiritual rule that the greatest truths are never obvious.  Knowledge
                  of the Masters is one such obscure truth.  Subba Row, an early
                  Theosophist and an accepted chela of a Master, once told Helena Blavatsky
                  that, having revealed the Masters to the world, she must now repudiate
                  her own statements.  She didn't, but later events, mainly the Krishnamurti
                  episode, put the TS and the Masters into obscurity, where it remains today. 
                  The knowledge is still available, but few know about it.
                   
                  When Annie Besant was doing her work for India, she received direct
                  instructions from the Rishi Agastya, the Adept of India.  During the same
                  time interval, she tried to get guidance regarding Krishnamurti, but was
                  unable to do so.  Surely the Masters realized the "Coming" had gone wrong,
                  if indeed it was ever part of their plans.  They could easily have directed
                  Besant or Leadbeater to give it up, and cut their losses.  They didn't,
                  and that makes me think they allowed the frenzy to run its course, because
                  that suited their purposes.  It put the TS and themselves into obscurity,
                  just as all the other Masters work in obscurity.  A curious fact about this
                  obscuration is that it does not yield to intellect.  The more a person
                  studies and thinks about the Krisnmurti episode, the more likely he is to
                  turn away entirely from Theosophy and knowledge of the Masters.  It is also
                  curious that, though nearly every other Leadbeater teaching exists with the
                  new age, knowledge of the Masters is almost absent from their groups
                  and writings.  It would seem that the Masters know how to remain obscure.
                  Leading persons in the TS are similarly obscured.  Annie Besant by the
                  Krishnamurti episode, because lower self Annie was confused, and never
                  resolved the conflicts.  The whole thing seemed to be her fault.  HPB
                  was obese, smoked, and had other bad habits not usually associated with
                  great spiritual people.  She was called a fraud, and was supposedly exposed
                  by the Society for Psychical Research.  Olcott was co-conspirator or dupe.
                  Leadbeater appeared to be a sex criminal.  In each case, intellect won't
                  resolve the issue.  It is only intuition that can examine the validity of
                  these leaders and their teachings.
                  To be clear, I believe the Masters do not want to be forgotten within the TS.
                  Several communications through Geoffrey Hodson make this point clearly.  But
                  I think they don't mind being unknown in the world at large. 
                  CONCLUSION
                  There are three cases here: two in which Eastern religions resisted the
                  incursion of Christianity, and the third, in which a wave of metaphysical
                  thought swept across Western nations.  Curiously, it was not the TS that
                  accomplished this.  In each case, it was an individual who stepped up and
                  acted as the focus: Olcott, Besant and Leadbeater.
                  In the TS, we have been fortunate to have had great leaders, some of whom
                  were accepted chelas of the Masters.  I'm not dismayed or disappointed that
                  our leaders sometimes appeared to have major flaws.  That is what I'd expect,
                  for two reasons: 1) They were paying off karma, often in large chunks, and
                  2) If they were clearly seen to be as great as they were, the spiritual path
                  would be obvious to the world.  And that's not going to happen.
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hughes, Marcus
                  . Ignorance is Bliss. (opinion) This very old wisdom survives space-time and cultures because it is true. The Human immoral soul has no need for bliss, the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 30, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    .


                    Ignorance is Bliss. (opinion)
                    This very old wisdom survives space-time and cultures because it is true.

                    The Human immoral soul has no need for bliss, the soul is timeless and ageless.
                    Hence immortal. Non-dual. The immortal soul does-not suffer from mood swings. Trust me.

                    The condition of bliss is a human desire.
                    The craving of the masses for easy quick-fix life styles where everyone is rich and famous (bliss) is an illusion.

                    Ignorance is to worship illusion.
                    Money suggests you can own a nice new car.
                    But the reality is that Mother nature and time will eventually rust them away and you end up with a pile of rust.
                    Money suggests that you could be popular and have the respected of others.
                    But when your money stops or is carried off by your friends, you find the greed of money has no respect.
                    Money is a classic illusion which gives temporary bliss but will always end in sadness.

                    To be ignorant of these overall effects, is bliss but always ends in misery.

                    A true Master understands this reality and lives life willing to endure the storms and strengthen personnel wisdom.

                    Understanding principles such as - To give is to receive. Virtue is its own reward.

                    Cooperation builds temples, competition destroys them.

                    In short, Bliss is not enough.


                    .

                    From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Merritt
                    Sent: 30 August 2013 1:26 AM
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: theos-talk Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism



                    THEOSOPHY and BUDDHISM:

                    In 1880, Buddhism in Ceylon was being swept away.
                    Ceylon was governed by Britain, missionaries were everywhere,
                    and young people who wanted to get ahead were converting
                    to Christianity. All accredited schools had to begin the
                    day teaching one hour of Bible studies. Buddhist
                    marriages were not recognized, and there were only 4
                    Buddhist schools in the whole country.

                    The first president of the Theosophical Society (TS)
                    was an American, Henry Olcott. He spent several years
                    in Ceylon, traveling by oxcart from village to village,
                    teaching Buddhism and establishing Buddhist schools.
                    He went briefly to England and met with government
                    officials to resolve some Buddhist-Christian issues.
                    When he left Ceylon, there were nearly 200 Buddhist
                    schools. He also performed thousands of healings.

                    A quote from a biographer: "Each year on February 17,
                    Buddhists throughout Sri Lanka light brass lamps and
                    offer burning incense to commemorate the anniversary
                    of the death of an American-born Buddhist hero. In
                    Theravadan temples, saffron-robed monks bow down
                    before his photograph, and boys and girls in
                    schoolhouses across the country offer gifts in his
                    memory. May the merit we have gained by these good
                    deeds, they meditate, pass on to Colonel Olcott, and
                    may he gain happiness and peace." . . .

                    "Disinterested historians describe Henry Steel Olcott
                    as the president-founder of the Theosophical Society,
                    one of Americas first Buddhists, and an important
                    contributor to both the Indian Renaissance in India
                    and the Sinhalese Buddhist Revival in Ceylon (now Sri
                    Lanka). Less objective observers have allotted Olcott
                    an even more central place in sacred history. A prime
                    minister of Ceylon praised Olcott as one of the heroes
                    in the struggle for our independence and a pioneer of
                    the present religious, national, and cultural revival."
                    (The White Buddhist)
                    See also Murphet, "Yankee Beacon of Buddhist Light"

                    THEOSOPHY and HINDUISM:

                    India also governed by the British, and Hinduism was under
                    similar assault in India.

                    Our second president, Annie Besant, was British. She
                    traveled India by train, and spoke to what Olcott called
                    "monster crowds", sometimes 5000-10000 people. She taught
                    them the beauty of Hinduism while they stood in perfect
                    silence. She founded two colleges. One of them, Central
                    Hindu College, by 1950, had become the largest university
                    in India. She was elected president of the Indian National
                    Congress. It is possible that Ghandi wasconverting to
                    Christianity, because when he was a young lawyer in South
                    Africa, he always kept two pictures on his wall: Jesus and
                    Annie Besant. His biographers don't suggest this, but the
                    picture makes me wonder. Thirteen year old Nehru was a
                    pupil in one of the schools, and was a member of the TS for
                    a few years until his political work took over his life.
                    Annie's Master was Morya, but she said that she got her
                    instructions from Rishi Agastya, the Adept in
                    charge of India, regarding what she should do for India.
                    Rishi Agastya is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures. There
                    were two Indian practices that the Rishi wanted to eliminate:
                    1) Widow burning, and 2) the premature marriage of child-brides
                    The marriage age was raised to 16 in most districts. Prior
                    to this, most Indian Theosophical families withheld their
                    daughters from early marriage, but they encountered prejudice,
                    as their neighbors assumed ther must be something wrong with
                    a 16-year-old girl who wasn't married. Widow-burning was outlawed
                    by the governing British.

                    Here is the testimony of clairvoyant Geoffrey Hodson:
                    ". . . in March of 1912 . . . I was delighted when I
                    saw advertised the fact that Dr Annie Besant was to
                    lecture . . . as I watched her, I saw what I came to
                    know was her aura, shining out from her far beyond
                    the walls of the building, filled with rich and
                    wonderful colors and radiating streams of benediction
                    to the world. So great was the impact of this
                    experience that I immediately joined the Theosophical
                    Society. " (Light of the Sanctuary)
                    For more information, see Nethercot, "The Last Four Lives
                    of Annie Besant"

                    THEOSOPHY AND THE WEST
                    The Mahachohan urged Theosophists to popularize a knowledge
                    of Theosophy. This has been accomplished to a remarkable
                    extent. When the TS was founded, there were two major modes
                    of thought in the Western world, science and religion. These
                    two were irreconcilably opposed to each other on many important
                    issues. Today, there is a third mode of thought, which I will
                    call metaphysics. Virtually everyone in the West understands
                    the concepts of reincarnation and karma, and millions believe it,
                    and have adapted their lives accordingly. Millions more remain
                    firmly religious or scientific, but have added some bits of
                    metaphysics to their personal belief system.
                    Theosophy wasn't the only force in this change; there were Edgar
                    Cayce, Science of Mind and others. But Theosophy was the most
                    significant. After the American Section broke away, Annie Besant,
                    Charles Leadbeater and others made speaking tours in America
                    These lectures were often to overflow crowds, and a TS lodge was
                    often created immeadiately after the talk. In Denver, for
                    example, more than 30 joined the same night of Besant's lecture.
                    The next night, she spoke and created a lodge in Colorado Springs.
                    A popular greeting of the time was, "How's your karma today?" A
                    Chicago newspaper ran a color section, explaining that this is
                    what the astral body looks like, according to Mrs Besant.
                    But the largest influence seems to be the writings of Charles
                    Leadbeater. Leadbeater's biographer, Gregory Tillett, says
                    "The modern occult movement owes more to [Charles Webster] Leadbeater
                    than to anyone else.... In almost all modern works on occultism
                    there are clear traces of his influences, often unacknowledged....
                    His concepts and ideas, his popularizing of Theosophical terms
                    and principles, run throughout all modern works in the area. The
                    idea of reincarnation, and of investigations into life before birth
                    as much as life after death, ideas of 'reincarnational therapy' and
                    examinations of the akashic records derive directly from Leadbeater's
                    work"

                    OBSCURATION
                    Considering Theosophical history, you would expect that nearly every
                    Buddhist, Hindu and new-ager would be a member. But there seems to be
                    a spiritual rule that the greatest truths are never obvious. Knowledge
                    of the Masters is one such obscure truth. Subba Row, an early
                    Theosophist and an accepted chela of a Master, once told Helena Blavatsky
                    that, having revealed the Masters to the world, she must now repudiate
                    her own statements. She didn't, but later events, mainly the Krishnamurti
                    episode, put the TS and the Masters into obscurity, where it remains today.
                    The knowledge is still available, but few know about it.

                    When Annie Besant was doing her work for India, she received direct
                    instructions from the Rishi Agastya, the Adept of India. During the same
                    time interval, she tried to get guidance regarding Krishnamurti, but was
                    unable to do so. Surely the Masters realized the "Coming" had gone wrong,
                    if indeed it was ever part of their plans. They could easily have directed
                    Besant or Leadbeater to give it up, and cut their losses. They didn't,
                    and that makes me think they allowed the frenzy to run its course, because
                    that suited their purposes. It put the TS and themselves into obscurity,
                    just as all the other Masters work in obscurity. A curious fact about this
                    obscuration is that it does not yield to intellect. The more a person
                    studies and thinks about the Krisnmurti episode, the more likely he is to
                    turn away entirely from Theosophy and knowledge of the Masters. It is also
                    curious that, though nearly every other Leadbeater teaching exists with the
                    new age, knowledge of the Masters is almost absent from their groups
                    and writings. It would seem that the Masters know how to remain obscure.
                    Leading persons in the TS are similarly obscured. Annie Besant by the
                    Krishnamurti episode, because lower self Annie was confused, and never
                    resolved the conflicts. The whole thing seemed to be her fault. HPB
                    was obese, smoked, and had other bad habits not usually associated with
                    great spiritual people. She was called a fraud, and was supposedly exposed
                    by the Society for Psychical Research. Olcott was co-conspirator or dupe.
                    Leadbeater appeared to be a sex criminal. In each case, intellect won't
                    resolve the issue. It is only intuition that can examine the validity of
                    these leaders and their teachings.
                    To be clear, I believe the Masters do not want to be forgotten within the TS.
                    Several communications through Geoffrey Hodson make this point clearly. But
                    I think they don't mind being unknown in the world at large.
                    CONCLUSION
                    There are three cases here: two in which Eastern religions resisted the
                    incursion of Christianity, and the third, in which a wave of metaphysical
                    thought swept across Western nations. Curiously, it was not the TS that
                    accomplished this. In each case, it was an individual who stepped up and
                    acted as the focus: Olcott, Besant and Leadbeater.
                    In the TS, we have been fortunate to have had great leaders, some of whom
                    were accepted chelas of the Masters. I'm not dismayed or disappointed that
                    our leaders sometimes appeared to have major flaws. That is what I'd expect,
                    for two reasons: 1) They were paying off karma, often in large chunks, and
                    2) If they were clearly seen to be as great as they were, the spiritual path
                    would be obvious to the world. And that's not going to happen.






                    Visit Your Group

                    Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
                    .

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  • John W
                    Marcus Hughes, you mistakenly typed immoral instead of immortal ! However, because of the prevalence of corruption and Fascism in governments and business
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 31, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Marcus Hughes, you mistakenly typed "immoral" instead of "immortal"!


                      However, because of the prevalence of corruption and Fascism in governments and business world-wide - a global kleptocracy and pornocracy as well as autocracy and plutocracy, many souls of people in high places are indeed "immoral" as well as being immortal, although by no means all. But because "an house divided against itself cannot stand", it will all come to an end, sooner rather than later, on a global "Judgement Day"; - I would say within 20 years maximum because of the way the world is heading for perdition.

                      John W.



                      ----- Forwarded Message -----
                      >From: "Hughes, Marcus" <marcus.hughes@...>
                      >To: "'theos-talk@yahoogroups.com'" <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Friday, 30 August 2013 9:37 PM
                      >Subject: RE: theos-talk Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      >..
                      >
                      >
                      >Ignorance is Bliss. (opinion)
                      >This very old wisdom survives space-time and cultures because it is true.
                      >
                      >The Human immoral soul has no need for bliss, the soul is timeless and ageless.
                      >Hence immortal. Non-dual. The immortal soul does-not suffer from mood swings. Trust me.
                      >
                      >The condition of bliss is a human desire.
                      >The craving of the masses for easy quick-fix life styles where everyone is rich and famous (bliss) is an illusion.
                      >
                      >Ignorance is to worship illusion.
                      >Money suggests you can own a nice new car.
                      >But the reality is that Mother nature and time will eventually rust them away and you end up with a pile of rust.
                      >Money suggests that you could be popular and have the respected of others.
                      >But when your money stops or is carried off by your friends, you find the greed of money has no respect.
                      >Money is a classic illusion which gives temporary bliss but will always end in sadness.
                      >
                      >To be ignorant of these overall effects, is bliss but always ends in misery.
                      >
                      >A true Master understands this reality and lives life willing to endure the storms and strengthen personnel wisdom.
                      >
                      >Understanding principles such as - To give is to receive. Virtue is its own reward.
                      >
                      >Cooperation builds temples, competition destroys them.
                      >
                      >In short, Bliss is not enough.
                      >
                      >
                      >.
                      >
                      >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Merritt
                      >Sent: 30 August 2013 1:26 AM
                      >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: theos-talk Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >THEOSOPHY and BUDDHISM:
                      >
                      >In 1880, Buddhism in Ceylon was being swept away.
                      >Ceylon was governed by Britain, missionaries were everywhere,
                      >and young people who wanted to get ahead were converting
                      >to Christianity. All accredited schools had to begin the
                      >day teaching one hour of Bible studies. Buddhist
                      >marriages were not recognized, and there were only 4
                      >Buddhist schools in the whole country.
                      >
                      >The first president of the Theosophical Society (TS)
                      >was an American, Henry Olcott. He spent several years
                      >in Ceylon, traveling by oxcart from village to village,
                      >teaching Buddhism and establishing Buddhist schools.
                      >He went briefly to England and met with government
                      >officials to resolve some Buddhist-Christian issues.
                      >When he left Ceylon, there were nearly 200 Buddhist
                      >schools. He also performed thousands of healings.
                      >
                      >A quote from a biographer: "Each year on February 17,
                      >Buddhists throughout Sri Lanka light brass lamps and
                      >offer burning incense to commemorate the anniversary
                      >of the death of an American-born Buddhist hero. In
                      >Theravadan temples, saffron-robed monks bow down
                      >before his photograph, and boys and girls in
                      >schoolhouses across the country offer gifts in his
                      >memory. May the merit we have gained by these good
                      >deeds, they meditate, pass on to Colonel Olcott, and
                      >may he gain happiness and peace." . . .
                      >
                      >"Disinterested historians describe Henry Steel Olcott
                      >as the president-founder of the Theosophical Society,
                      >one of Americas first Buddhists, and an important
                      >contributor to both the Indian Renaissance in India
                      >and the Sinhalese Buddhist Revival in Ceylon (now Sri
                      >Lanka). Less objective observers have allotted Olcott
                      >an even more central place in sacred history. A prime
                      >minister of Ceylon praised Olcott as one of the heroes
                      >in the struggle for our independence and a pioneer of
                      >the present religious, national, and cultural revival."
                      >(The White Buddhist)
                      >See also Murphet, "Yankee Beacon of Buddhist Light"
                      >
                      >THEOSOPHY and HINDUISM:
                      >
                      >India also governed by the British, and Hinduism was under
                      >similar assault in India.
                      >
                      >Our second president, Annie Besant, was British. She
                      >traveled India by train, and spoke to what Olcott called
                      >"monster crowds", sometimes 5000-10000 people. She taught
                      >them the beauty of Hinduism while they stood in perfect
                      >silence. She founded two colleges. One of them, Central
                      >Hindu College, by 1950, had become the largest university
                      >in India. She was elected president of the Indian National
                      >Congress. It is possible that Ghandi wasconverting to
                      >Christianity, because when he was a young lawyer in South
                      >Africa, he always kept two pictures on his wall: Jesus and
                      >Annie Besant. His biographers don't suggest this, but the
                      >picture makes me wonder. Thirteen year old Nehru was a
                      >pupil in one of the schools, and was a member of the TS for
                      >a few years until his political work took over his life.
                      >Annie's Master was Morya, but she said that she got her
                      >instructions from Rishi Agastya, the Adept in
                      >charge of India, regarding what she should do for India.
                      >Rishi Agastya is mentioned in the Hindu scriptures. There
                      >were two Indian practices that the Rishi wanted to eliminate:
                      >1) Widow burning, and 2) the premature marriage of child-brides
                      >The marriage age was raised to 16 in most districts. Prior
                      >to this, most Indian Theosophical families withheld their
                      >daughters from early marriage, but they encountered prejudice,
                      >as their neighbors assumed ther must be something wrong with
                      >a 16-year-old girl who wasn't married. Widow-burning was outlawed
                      >by the governing British.
                      >
                      >Here is the testimony of clairvoyant Geoffrey Hodson:
                      >". . . in March of 1912 . . . I was delighted when I
                      >saw advertised the fact that Dr Annie Besant was to
                      >lecture . . . as I watched her, I saw what I came to
                      >know was her aura, shining out from her far beyond
                      >the walls of the building, filled with rich and
                      >wonderful colors and radiating streams of benediction
                      >to the world. So great was the impact of this
                      >experience that I immediately joined the Theosophical
                      >Society. " (Light of the Sanctuary)
                      >For more information, see Nethercot, "The Last Four Lives
                      >of Annie Besant"
                      >
                      >THEOSOPHY AND THE WEST
                      >The Mahachohan urged Theosophists to popularize a knowledge
                      >of Theosophy. This has been accomplished to a remarkable
                      >extent. When the TS was founded, there were two major modes
                      >of thought in the Western world, science and religion. These
                      >two were irreconcilably opposed to each other on many important
                      >issues. Today, there is a third mode of thought, which I will
                      >call metaphysics. Virtually everyone in the West understands
                      >the concepts of reincarnation and karma, and millions believe it,
                      >and have adapted their lives accordingly.. Millions more remain
                      >firmly religious or scientific, but have added some bits of
                      >metaphysics to their personal belief system.
                      >Theosophy wasn't the only force in this change; there were Edgar
                      >Cayce, Science of Mind and others. But Theosophy was the most
                      >significant. After the American Section broke away, Annie Besant,
                      >Charles Leadbeater and others made speaking tours in America
                      >These lectures were often to overflow crowds, and a TS lodge was
                      >often created immeadiately after the talk. In Denver, for
                      >example, more than 30 joined the same night of Besant's lecture.
                      >The next night, she spoke and created a lodge in Colorado Springs.
                      >A popular greeting of the time was, "How's your karma today?" A
                      >Chicago newspaper ran a color section, explaining that this is
                      >what the astral body looks like, according to Mrs Besant.
                      >But the largest influence seems to be the writings of Charles
                      >Leadbeater. Leadbeater's biographer, Gregory Tillett, says
                      >"The modern occult movement owes more to [Charles Webster] Leadbeater
                      >than to anyone else.... In almost all modern works on occultism
                      >there are clear traces of his influences, often unacknowledged....
                      >His concepts and ideas, his popularizing of Theosophical terms
                      >and principles, run throughout all modern works in the area. The
                      >idea of reincarnation, and of investigations into life before birth
                      >as much as life after death, ideas of 'reincarnational therapy' and
                      >examinations of the akashic records derive directly from Leadbeater's
                      >work"
                      >
                      >OBSCURATION
                      >Considering Theosophical history, you would expect that nearly every
                      >Buddhist, Hindu and new-ager would be a member. But there seems to be
                      >a spiritual rule that the greatest truths are never obvious. Knowledge
                      >of the Masters is one such obscure truth. Subba Row, an early
                      >Theosophist and an accepted chela of a Master, once told Helena Blavatsky
                      >that, having revealed the Masters to the world, she must now repudiate
                      >her own statements. She didn't, but later events, mainly the Krishnamurti
                      >episode, put the TS and the Masters into obscurity, where it remains today.
                      >The knowledge is still available, but few know about it.
                      >
                      >When Annie Besant was doing her work for India, she received direct
                      >instructions from the Rishi Agastya, the Adept of India. During the same
                      >time interval, she tried to get guidance regarding Krishnamurti, but was
                      >unable to do so. Surely the Masters realized the "Coming" had gone wrong,
                      >if indeed it was ever part of their plans. They could easily have directed
                      >Besant or Leadbeater to give it up, and cut their losses. They didn't,
                      >and that makes me think they allowed the frenzy to run its course, because
                      >that suited their purposes. It put the TS and themselves into obscurity,
                      >just as all the other Masters work in obscurity. A curious fact about this
                      >obscuration is that it does not yield to intellect. The more a person
                      >studies and thinks about the Krisnmurti episode, the more likely he is to
                      >turn away entirely from Theosophy and knowledge of the Masters. It is also
                      >curious that, though nearly every other Leadbeater teaching exists with the
                      >new age, knowledge of the Masters is almost absent from their groups
                      >and writings. It would seem that the Masters know how to remain obscure.
                      >Leading persons in the TS are similarly obscured. Annie Besant by the
                      >Krishnamurti episode, because lower self Annie was confused, and never
                      >resolved the conflicts. The whole thing seemed to be her fault. HPB
                      >was obese, smoked, and had other bad habits not usually associated with
                      >great spiritual people. She was called a fraud, and was supposedly exposed
                      >by the Society for Psychical Research. Olcott was co-conspirator or dupe.
                      >Leadbeater appeared to be a sex criminal. In each case, intellect won't
                      >resolve the issue. It is only intuition that can examine the validity of
                      >these leaders and their teachings.
                      >To be clear, I believe the Masters do not want to be forgotten within the TS.
                      >Several communications through Geoffrey Hodson make this point clearly. But
                      >I think they don't mind being unknown in the world at large.
                      >CONCLUSION
                      >There are three cases here: two in which Eastern religions resisted the
                      >incursion of Christianity, and the third, in which a wave of metaphysical
                      >thought swept across Western nations. Curiously, it was not the TS that
                      >accomplished this. In each case, it was an individual who stepped up and
                      >acted as the focus: Olcott, Besant and Leadbeater.
                      >In the TS, we have been fortunate to have had great leaders, some of whom
                      >were accepted chelas of the Masters. I'm not dismayed or disappointed that
                      >our leaders sometimes appeared to have major flaws. That is what I'd expect,
                      >for two reasons: 1) They were paying off karma, often in large chunks, and
                      >2) If they were clearly seen to be as great as they were, the spiritual path
                      >would be obvious to the world. And that's not going to happen.
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mark Jaqua
                      ... The only online account I can think of would be in The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925. This is definitely online somewhere on Blavatsky Archives, but I
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 31, 2013
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                        M. Sufilight writes:

                        >Sometimes I wonder what the best short summary of the "Judge Case" actually might be - here online the Internet for free?
                        >Perhaps some of you who know about the details are able to point such an online article or online book out?<

                        The only online account I can think of would be in "The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925." This is definitely online somewhere on Blavatsky Archives, but I don't have the link. (Come on Mort, cough up the $30 for "The Judge Case." It'd do you good to read a _real_ world book, and you'd get lost in there for weeks - and then you could be the chief authority in the world on the Judge Case.)

                        Blavatsky had a bad disposition towards Hartmann, but was chastized by her Teacher for it that she was wrong. See Hartmann's series of letters from Blavatsky in "The Path," and also I think it is mentioned in the recent "SD Commentaries.
                        (Hint: I ain't going to argue with you Mort, so don't post some mile-long challenging dispute.)
                        - jake j.

                        ---------------





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Augoeides-222@...
                        Mark,    One reason why she was that way with Franz Hartman was that he was a member of The Secret Basilica that included many notables of the persuasion of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 31, 2013
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                          Mark,

                             One reason why she was that way with Franz Hartman was that he was a member of The Secret Basilica that included many notables of the persuasion of Kardec and M esmer, and Papus.



                          John

















                           

                          ----- Original Message -----


                          From: "Mark Jaqua" <hozro@...>
                          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:31:53 PM
                          Subject: theos-talk Re: Biggest Book for Lowest Price

                           




                          M. Sufilight writes:

                          >Sometimes I wonder what the best short summary of the "Judge Case" actually might be - here online the Internet for free?
                          >Perhaps some of you who know about the details are able to point such an online article or online book out?<

                          The only online account I can think of would be in "The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925." This is definitely online somewhere on Blavatsky Archives, but I don't have the link. (Come on Mort, cough up the $30 for "The Judge Case." It'd do you good to read a _real_ world book, and you'd get lost in there for weeks - and then you could be the chief authority in the world on the Judge Case.)

                          Blavatsky had a bad disposition towards Hartmann, but was chastized by her Teacher for it that she was wrong. See Hartmann's series of letters from Blavatsky in "The Path," and also I think it is mentioned in the recent "SD Commentaries.
                          (Hint: I ain't going to argue with you Mort, so don't post some mile-long challenging dispute.)
                          - jake j.

                          ---------------

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • .:.
                          When you mention about how heavy the book is, I am reminded of two volume collected works of Geoffrey Hodson, each is about 1,000 pages. It is another book I
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 1 4:17 AM
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                            When you mention about how heavy the book is, I am reminded of two volume
                            collected works of Geoffrey Hodson, each is about 1,000 pages. It is
                            another book I would like to see put out as a pdf file. I am really sure
                            that very few copies were sold, primarily to libraries - who else would
                            like to lug them. I tried to encourage the publisher to put out as a pdf
                            file with no success.

                            *MKR*


                            On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 9:06 AM, proto37 <hozro@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > I hesitate to pick it up and start reading some, because I can get lost
                            > for an hour paging around and cross-referencing. Yes a pdf would be nice
                            > (maybe you should volunteer to do it! ha) but the book will last 200 yrs.
                            > while the internet may dissappear someday at the speed of light. I remember
                            > a number of years back "cascading effects" when a tree limb shorted out on
                            > a power line in Cleveland, the whole East Coast blacked out for days.
                            > - jake j.
                            >
                            > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ".:." <mkr777@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > One is amazed at the enormous amount of research and writing and editing
                            > > that went into it.
                            > >
                            > > This offer (cost includes shipping, which is expensive) has been going on
                            > > for quite some time and is a very good deal. The book is voluminous and
                            > if
                            > > you do not want to carry it around. Try it and you will soon abandon it.
                            > >
                            > > I wish it is put out as a pdf file for free download. Once converted to
                            > > pdf, one can easily print out the pages one wants. It would see a very
                            > wide
                            > > and quick distribution around the world.
                            > >
                            > > Not much effort is needed for conversion and can be done in days, not
                            > > months and at almost no expense as theosophical volunteers can be found.
                            > > Just post a msg here.
                            > >
                            > > MKR
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > *MKR*
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I see Edmonton TS is offering a great deal on Pelletier's "The Judge
                            > Case"
                            > > > for $30 (US or Canada?) post paid at:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/books-for-sale-by-edmonton-ts.php
                            > > >
                            > > > This is possibly the largest theosophical book ever published and just
                            > > > overwhelming in the amount of information supplied. It was originally
                            > $95,
                            > > > and is about 1500 pp of small print on 8x11" pages. There is much "new"
                            > > > information (like letters between Hargrove and Judge) - "new" because
                            > lost
                            > > > in the past of obscure Theosophical publications - "Theosophical
                            > Quarterly"
                            > > > in this case.
                            > > > Edmonton rescued a huge amount of the corpus of Blavatsky-oriented
                            > > > Theosophical Publications of the past. About 20-25 years ago they
                            > secured a
                            > > > small publication fund and did reprints of many Theosophical magazines
                            > like
                            > > > Zirkoff's "Theosophia," "The Irish Theosophist," Endersby's
                            > "Theosophical
                            > > > Notes," Stokes "O.E. Critic," many papers by Redfern, etc. - all at an
                            > > > inexpensive and subsidized price. I don't remember individual prices,
                            > > > except that I got a set of about 12 large volumes of Endersby's
                            > > > "Theosophical Notes" for $120. This is or was a great representative of
                            > > > "theosophical" publishing I think. 'Motivated by altruistic reasons
                            > and Big
                            > > > enough to _give_, without requiring much cash on the barrel-head, or
                            > other
                            > > > strings attached. (An example of the latter today, for instance, is
                            > putting
                            > > > PDF scans of old literature "altruistically" on the internet - but
                            > formated
                            > > > so that they are near impossible to print out, for those so inclined.)
                            > > >
                            > > > - jake j.
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • M. Sufilight
                            Dear Mark and all readers My views are: I thank you for your kind reply. The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 http://blavatskyarchives.com/garrtc.htm A very
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 1 11:16 AM
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                              Dear Mark and all readers

                              My views are:

                              I thank you for your kind reply.

                              The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925
                              http://blavatskyarchives.com/garrtc.htm


                              A very interesting book, indeed.

                              _______

                              TO ALL READERS.
                              This below is therefore not for you Mark since you express a disinterest in a lengthy reply...


                              Life and Writings of John Garrigues
                              "[A] lifelong Los Angeles theosophist and editor - to whom we will refer in the present article simply as "JW" - sent to us a brief and valuable account of John Garrigues' trajectory."
                              .......
                              "JW writes:

                              "When the Adyar T. S. threatened to sue the publisher of the "The Theosophical Movement – 1875-1925" , Garrigues wrote to the editor E.P. Dutton guaranteeing that the book was true and that he had data to back up every page on it. The Adyar Society did not go on with the law suit." ......."
                              http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=1493#.UiNcS3_N7To


                              The above book - The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 - says on page 599:
                              "What Col. Olcott does not state is that among these "seven psychics" were Chakravarti, Countess Wachtmeister, Mr. Old, Mr. Sinnett's "sensitive" Mr. Leadbeater, all leagued in the cabal against Mr. Judge, nor that the "messages" that Mrs. Besant, Mr. Sinnett, and himself had been receiving from the "Masters," coming "through" these various "psychics," were the real foundation of the whole attack - not any mundane "proof." Nor does he trouble to explain why, all being "mediums and psychics" alike, it was Mr. Judge alone who must be driven into outer darkness."
                              (The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 by Written by the Editors of Theosophy Magazine; ULT)
                              http://blavatskyarchives.com/garr4.htm#622


                              I wonder whether there are other views with regard to the best - short summary of the Judge Case?


                              _______

                              What was the - actual role - of the Co-founder H. S. Olcott in the Judge Case?
                              Was it not on the same level as that of Annie Besant's and did he not say so himself in his books the Old Diary Leaves?


                              And we might add the following letter by Annie Besant, presented by H. S. Olcott in his Diary...

                              "AN APPENDIX
                              STATEMENT BY ANNIE BESANT
                              Read for the Information of Members at the
                              Third Session of the European Convention
                              of the T.S., July 12th, 1894"
                              "And now I must reduce these charges to their proper proportions, as they have been enormously exaggerated, and it is due to Mr. Judge that I should say publicly what from the beginning I have said privately. The President stated them very accurately in his address to the Judicial Committee: the vital charge is that Mr. Judge has issued letters and messages in the script recognizable as that adopted by a Master with whom H. P. B. was closely connected,1 and that these letters

                              _______________
                              1Two scripts, not one only, in red and blue, purporting to be the handwriting of the two Masters, "M." and "K. H." appear in the material now at Adyar in connection with the charges against Mr. Judge.—C.J.


                              AN APPENDIX 195


                              and messages were neither written nor precipitated directly by the Master in whose writing they appear; as leading up to this there are subsidiary charges of deception, but these would certainly never have been made the basis of any action save for their connection with the main point.
                              Further, I wish it, to be distinctly understood that I do not charge and have not charged Mr. Judge with forgery in the ordinary sense of the term, but with giving a misleading material form to messages received psychically from the Master in various ways, without acquainting the recipients with this fact."
                              .......
                              " I know now that they were not written or precipitated by the Master, and that they were done by Mr. Judge, but I also believe that the gist of these messages was psychically received, and that Mr. Judge's error lay in giving them to me in a script written by himself and not saying that he had done so. I feel bound to refer to these letters thus explicitly, because having been myself mistaken, I in turn misled the public."
                              .......
                              "Note by Colonel Olcott: I cannot allow Mrs. Besant to take upon herself the entire responsibility for formulating the charges against Mr. Judge, since I myself requested her to do it. The tacit endorsement of the charges by persistence in a policy of silence, was an injustice to the Vice-President, since it gave him no chance to make his defence; while, at the same time, the widely-current suspicions were thereby augmented, to the injury of the Society. So, to bring the whole matter to light, I, with others, asked Mrs. Besant to assume the task of drafting and signing the charges. —H. S. O."
                              (Pages. 194-199...also published 1906-1907 in the Theosophist?...And with the same content?)
                              http://www.theosophy.ph/onlinebooks/odl/odlappendix.html


                              M. Sufilight asks and says:

                              Was W. Q. Judge not wrong in giving - the public - the impression that his own handwriting was that of the Masters, and giving the impression that the messages by him was materialized letters of the Masters, when they were only received through telepathy or similar?
                              (See also "LODGES OF MAGIC" by Blavatsky, BCW, Vol. X, p. 129-130)

                              Were H. S. Olcott and Annie Besant not wrong and harmful to the Theosophical Society when he and Annie Besant allowed the charges against W. Q. Judge to be made official, in stead of settling the whole affair in private by communication with W. Q. Judge - as good old friends, real Theosophist, --- and REAL CHELAS would do it?
                              (Especially when the only charge seem to have been the above one stated by Annie Besant, and the rest later on was annulled and considered irrelevant.)

                              I think so.

                              Sigh...I ask: Why such a division on something of such a minor importance compared to the full objects of the Society - and - even in the name of compassaion?

                              I ask today, in the light of all what has been written about this Judge Case:
                              ....Why not join hands - at least as afilliated organizations - if you claim you follow the same Original objects and the same Original non-sectarian organizational frame, and let the rest of the paragraphs in your Constitutions become secondary???

                              Or do you prefer to establish something else than a Brotherhood of Humanity based on friendship?
                              A mere sect perhaps - and - not the original non-sectarian spirit?

                              _______

                              H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
                              "The chief aim of the Founder of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities."
                              http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

                              Handsome is, as handsome does.
                              Some gathers and some establish splits.


                              I thank you to all of you for sharing some toughts with me.



                              M. Sufilight






                              --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > M. Sufilight writes:
                              >
                              > >Sometimes I wonder what the best short summary of the "Judge Case" actually might be - here online the Internet for free?
                              > >Perhaps some of you who know about the details are able to point such an online article or online book out?<
                              >
                              > The only online account I can think of would be in "The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925." This is definitely online somewhere on Blavatsky Archives, but I don't have the link. (Come on Mort, cough up the $30 for "The Judge Case." It'd do you good to read a _real_ world book, and you'd get lost in there for weeks - and then you could be the chief authority in the world on the Judge Case.)
                              >
                              > Blavatsky had a bad disposition towards Hartmann, but was chastized by her Teacher for it that she was wrong. See Hartmann's series of letters from Blavatsky in "The Path," and also I think it is mentioned in the recent "SD Commentaries.
                              > (Hint: I ain't going to argue with you Mort, so don't post some mile-long challenging dispute.)
                              > - jake j.
                              >
                              > ---------------
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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