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Early TS plans

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  • Mark Jaqua
    I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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      I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."



      "Some Theosophical Plans

      - P. A. Malpas

      "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'


      "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

      "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

      (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

      (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

      (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

      (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

      (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

      " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

      (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

      -------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • .:.
      Thanks for the post. Frequently, visiting early publications throw light on the more important than the less important objectives. Looks like some where along
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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        Thanks for the post. Frequently, visiting early publications throw light on
        the more important than the less important objectives. Looks like some
        where along the way the priorities got mixed up and no wonder that we have
        shrinking membership world-wide. Also today we have the invaluable tool of
        Internet which seems to be ignored by the leaders - may be they are unable
        to understand its power and effectiveness. Unless we work for the welfare
        and good of the masses, how can we expect help from Nature.

        *MKR*


        On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Mark Jaqua <hozro@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in
        > India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e)
        > indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's
        > lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also
        > mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."
        >
        > "Some Theosophical Plans
        >
        > - P. A. Malpas
        >
        > "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with
        > their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some
        > thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India
        > shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that
        > country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is
        > 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'
        >
        > "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are
        > declared, among other things, to be:
        >
        > "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....
        >
        > (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....
        >
        > (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form
        > correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and
        > legends....
        >
        > (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in
        > diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by
        > modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical,
        > when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important
        > secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of
        > inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical
        > observation.
        >
        > (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the
        > international exchange of useful arts and products.
        >
        > (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the
        > spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and
        > assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and
        > spiritual.'
        >
        > " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time
        > strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the
        > original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky.
        > Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the
        > way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed
        > to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics,
        > dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are
        > compatible with those plans......"
        >
        > (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)
        >
        > -------------------
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M. Sufilight
        Dear Mark and all readers My views are: Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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          Dear Mark and all readers

          My views are:

          Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.

          I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:
          The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258
          (June 17th, 2013)

          And also here:
          Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262
          (June 20th, 2013)




          M. Sufilight


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Mark Jaqua
          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PM
          Subject: theos-talk Early TS plans



          I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."

          "Some Theosophical Plans

          - P. A. Malpas

          "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'

          "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

          "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

          (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

          (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

          (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

          (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

          (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

          " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

          (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

          -------------------

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cass Silva
          Isn t it time we all let the past go?  What happened happened and there s very little we can do about events that occured before our existence. Cass
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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            Isn't it time we all let the past go?  What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.
            Cass


            ________________________________
            From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
            To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AM
            Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



             
            Dear Mark and all readers

            My views are:

            Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.

            I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:
            The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258
            (June 17th, 2013)

            And also here:
            Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262
            (June 20th, 2013)

            M. Sufilight

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mark Jaqua
            To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PM
            Subject: theos-talk Early TS plans

            I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."

            "Some Theosophical Plans

            - P. A. Malpas

            "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'

            "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

            "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

            (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

            (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

            (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

            (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

            (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

            " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

            (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

            -------------------

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • .:.
            I have a slightly different take on this. First step is the verbal acceptance. Once this happens, there seems to be a chemistry that follows. In many cases,
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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              I have a slightly different take on this.

              First step is the verbal acceptance. Once this happens, there seems to be a
              chemistry that follows. In many cases, when we take actions, this principle
              comes to our mind. Also it is likely that at the back our mind this
              princple keeps working. As time goes one, the automatic application of this
              principle in many of our daily activities takes place even without
              deliberately thinking about it. Also in due course putting the principle in
              practice brings happiness and joy to us and in time it becomes a part of
              us. It also becomes contagious and we affect others as well without their
              even being aware of it.

              As many teachers have said, if we become keen observers, we will be able to
              observe all the good that flows out of it.

              MKR

              On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Ramanujachary nallanchakravarti <
              srivirinchi@...> wrote:

              > Many members, unfortunately, feel that verbal acceptance of the first
              > object is enough and adequate. Verbal acceptance is no acceptance.
              > Acceptance is not what is demanded.




              *MKR*


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • M. Sufilight
              Dear Cass and all readers My views are: I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 2, 2013
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                Dear Cass and all readers

                My views are:

                I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early theosophists?) And I think you perhaps misunderstand, what the focus of my exchange in thsi thread is all about.

                Some people learn from the past, others do not. It seems.

                If you have it as your objects to promulgate altruism and an Universal Brotherhood along the lines and as well as objects given in the Theosophical Society, then I think it is ethically quite important that you are aquainted with the original intention behind the Theosophical Society as it was given by the Co-Founders, and seek to avoid jumping to fast conclusions based on insufficient data with regard to whether the present day Theosophical Society still follow the same concepts and objects organizationally speaking - or do not follow them. With other words it cannot be unimportant if the Theosophical Society has deteriorated - ethically - in its original objects and organizational concepts. And it cannot be unimportant to understand the original intention with the Theosophical Society. These are my views.

                There are however also those who prefer to remain ignorant about the facts related to the clear deviations from the original lines and objects of the Theosophical Society as they were given by the main Co-Founders - and - remain ignorant about the ethical implications such deviations actually have had or still have for the Theosophical Society - and - even related theosophical organizations.

                The truth about almost all major well known organizations of the past originally based on altruism is that they began and started out with a genuine good and ethical idea and concept organizationally speaking - and - later they almost all of them have deteriorated into exoteric materialism or bigotted sectarianism or worse, more or less. Let us seek to avoid the same happen with the Theospohical Society, - and avoid it in all respects.

                One major reason being that the difference and ethical importance about the difference - between an absolutly non-sectarian organization - and - a sectarian organization has not been understood, or has been misunderstood. And still is being misunderstood. At least it seems so.

                Others of course prefer to consider altruism unimportant.
                Then the Theosphical Society as given in its original formulation is not for them.


                All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism.
                And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.




                M. Sufilight


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Cass Silva
                To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:13 AM
                Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                Isn't it time we all let the past go? What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.
                Cass

                ________________________________
                From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
                To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AM
                Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                Dear Mark and all readers

                My views are:

                Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.

                I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:
                The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258
                (June 17th, 2013)

                And also here:
                Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262
                (June 20th, 2013)

                M. Sufilight

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Mark Jaqua
                To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PM
                Subject: theos-talk Early TS plans

                I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."

                "Some Theosophical Plans

                - P. A. Malpas

                "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'

                "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

                "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

                (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

                (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

                (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

                (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

                (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

                " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

                (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

                -------------------

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Cass Silva
                Who stabbed who in the back really has nothing to do with the teachings? Cass ________________________________ From: M. Sufilight
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 2, 2013
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                  Who stabbed who in the back really has nothing to do with the teachings?
                  Cass


                  ________________________________
                  From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, 3 July 2013 1:52 AM
                  Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                   
                  Dear Cass and all readers

                  My views are:

                  I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early theosophists?) And I think you perhaps misunderstand, what the focus of my exchange in thsi thread is all about.

                  Some people learn from the past, others do not. It seems.

                  If you have it as your objects to promulgate altruism and an Universal Brotherhood along the lines and as well as objects given in the Theosophical Society, then I think it is ethically quite important that you are aquainted with the original intention behind the Theosophical Society as it was given by the Co-Founders, and seek to avoid jumping to fast conclusions based on insufficient data with regard to whether the present day Theosophical Society still follow the same concepts and objects organizationally speaking - or do not follow them. With other words it cannot be unimportant if the Theosophical Society has deteriorated - ethically - in its original objects and organizational concepts. And it cannot be unimportant to understand the original intention with the Theosophical Society. These are my views.

                  There are however also those who prefer to remain ignorant about the facts related to the clear deviations from the original lines and objects of the Theosophical Society as they were given by the main Co-Founders - and - remain ignorant about the ethical implications such deviations actually have had or still have for the Theosophical Society - and - even related theosophical organizations.

                  The truth about almost all major well known organizations of the past originally based on altruism is that they began and started out with a genuine good and ethical idea and concept organizationally speaking - and - later they almost all of them have deteriorated into exoteric materialism or bigotted sectarianism or worse, more or less. Let us seek to avoid the same happen with the Theospohical Society, - and avoid it in all respects.

                  One major reason being that the difference and ethical importance about the difference - between an absolutly non-sectarian organization - and - a sectarian organization has not been understood, or has been misunderstood. And still is being misunderstood. At least it seems so.

                  Others of course prefer to consider altruism unimportant.
                  Then the Theosphical Society as given in its original formulation is not for them.

                  All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism.
                  And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.

                  M. Sufilight

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Cass Silva
                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:13 AM
                  Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                  Isn't it time we all let the past go? What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.
                  Cass

                  ________________________________
                  From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AM
                  Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                  Dear Mark and all readers

                  My views are:

                  Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.

                  I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:
                  The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258
                  (June 17th, 2013)

                  And also here:
                  Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262
                  (June 20th, 2013)

                  M. Sufilight

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Mark Jaqua
                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PM
                  Subject: theos-talk Early TS plans

                  I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."

                  "Some Theosophical Plans

                  - P. A. Malpas

                  "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'

                  "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

                  "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

                  (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

                  (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

                  (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

                  (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

                  (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

                  " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

                  (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

                  -------------------

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • M. Sufilight
                  Dear Cass My views are: I am not sure I understand this short formulated question and the aggreesive tone of voice in your formulation. I would ask: If looking
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 3, 2013
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                    Dear Cass

                    My views are:

                    I am not sure I understand this short formulated question and the aggreesive tone of voice in your formulation.
                    I would ask: If looking at past literary output is not unimportant, how can past organizational output, formulations and facts be unimportant unless one seek to think along sectarian lines in stead of non-sectarian lines, organizationally, where the latter clearly is better at promulgating altruism for humanity - compared to organizational sectarian bias?

                    Organizational structures are not unimportant when one seek to promulgate altruism for the sake of all humanity. And I hold it ethically to be a mistake to think otherwise. And to think that the original organizational structure of the Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 (when the Co-Founders still lived) at all cost be completely disregarded (without explaining why) when we in our present hours seek to promulgate altruism and a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity - claimed - to be based on the SAME original Theosophical Society - is as far as I am concerned not an expression of wisdom. These are however of course only my views. If others disagree on this, they could kindly and in the name of compassion tell the readers about it.

                    There has not been anyone claiming any - stabbing - going on, this aggressive word seem only to be coming from you Cass. I see no reason to plaster other persons with bad intentions based on no documentation what so ever.
                    I could well meanningly and kindly suggest, that you seek to be more altruisitic in your formulation and seek to at least elaborate a bit more on what you actually ask about, giving me and others a chance to understand what your question is all about.

                    Yet, misunderstandings seem to occur, when on exchange using physical words on a forum.

                    All the above are merely my views.



                    M. Sufilight


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Cass Silva
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 2:41 AM
                    Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                    Who stabbed who in the back really has nothing to do with the teachings?
                    Cass

                    ________________________________
                    From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 3 July 2013 1:52 AM
                    Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                    Dear Cass and all readers

                    My views are:

                    I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early theosophists?) And I think you perhaps misunderstand, what the focus of my exchange in thsi thread is all about.

                    Some people learn from the past, others do not. It seems.

                    If you have it as your objects to promulgate altruism and an Universal Brotherhood along the lines and as well as objects given in the Theosophical Society, then I think it is ethically quite important that you are aquainted with the original intention behind the Theosophical Society as it was given by the Co-Founders, and seek to avoid jumping to fast conclusions based on insufficient data with regard to whether the present day Theosophical Society still follow the same concepts and objects organizationally speaking - or do not follow them. With other words it cannot be unimportant if the Theosophical Society has deteriorated - ethically - in its original objects and organizational concepts. And it cannot be unimportant to understand the original intention with the Theosophical Society. These are my views.

                    There are however also those who prefer to remain ignorant about the facts related to the clear deviations from the original lines and objects of the Theosophical Society as they were given by the main Co-Founders - and - remain ignorant about the ethical implications such deviations actually have had or still have for the Theosophical Society - and - even related theosophical organizations.

                    The truth about almost all major well known organizations of the past originally based on altruism is that they began and started out with a genuine good and ethical idea and concept organizationally speaking - and - later they almost all of them have deteriorated into exoteric materialism or bigotted sectarianism or worse, more or less. Let us seek to avoid the same happen with the Theospohical Society, - and avoid it in all respects.

                    One major reason being that the difference and ethical importance about the difference - between an absolutly non-sectarian organization - and - a sectarian organization has not been understood, or has been misunderstood. And still is being misunderstood. At least it seems so.

                    Others of course prefer to consider altruism unimportant.
                    Then the Theosphical Society as given in its original formulation is not for them.

                    All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism.
                    And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.

                    M. Sufilight

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Cass Silva
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:13 AM
                    Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                    Isn't it time we all let the past go? What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.
                    Cass

                    ________________________________
                    From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AM
                    Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                    Dear Mark and all readers

                    My views are:

                    Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.

                    I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:
                    The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258
                    (June 17th, 2013)

                    And also here:
                    Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262
                    (June 20th, 2013)

                    M. Sufilight

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mark Jaqua
                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PM
                    Subject: theos-talk Early TS plans

                    I thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy."

                    "Some Theosophical Plans

                    - P. A. Malpas

                    "It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'

                    "Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be:

                    "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....

                    (b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....

                    (c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....

                    (d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.

                    (e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.

                    (f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'

                    " It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"

                    (Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)

                    -------------------

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                  • M. Sufilight
                    Dear all readers My views are: Ramanujachary wrote: Organization is as important as the philosophy that it attempts to promote/popularize. There can be no
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 4, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear all readers

                      My views are:

                      Ramanujachary wrote:
                      "Organization is as important as the philosophy that it attempts to promote/popularize. There can be no second opinion on this."

                      M. Sufilight says:
                      I can not just agree with this view as it is formulated. It might be true when we talk about a sectarian organization, whether or not it call itself theosophical or something similar. And also true with regard to an organization claiming to be non-sectarian when it in fact promulgates a sectarian doctrine, and can be proven to do so. But, - It is logical to me, that it is NOT true, when we talk about an absolutely non-sectarian organization - because such an organization does not promote or seek to popularize any doctrines or teachings. More on this in the below.

                      Ramanujachary wrote:
                      "Organizational structure has a "Basic" character. One may in later years change certain rules and regulations; and yet the "Basic Structure" of the Organization cannot be downplayed or substituted. If this is done, the Original purpose of the established organization vanishes."

                      M. Sufilight says:
                      The above words, I am in agreement with. Yet, one aught as I see it to add that the total validity of this view certainly might depend on the size of the organization, and for instance on either time, place, people and circumstance, or one or more of them.

                      The promulgation of altruism for the sake of all humanity in for instance an absolutely non-sectarian Society like the Theosophical Society requires no doubt a kind of organic or "organic" change in the organizational structure through time where such an organization necessarily must relate itself to the circumstances it has its existence in, and the possibilities thereof of such an existence. This seems obvious.

                      One could also say the following...where I here define the word "sectarian" in my own manner due to lack of better words in the vocabulary. (Maybe "subtle-sectarian" is a better term to use.) Here we go...

                      a) In a sectarian organization or society - we experience that there are a leader or a group of leaders who promulgate a certain doctrine on behalf of the organization or society and on behalf of the members in the organization or society.

                      b) In an organization or society - claiming - to be non-sectarian because it is allowing members from all kinds of religions and beliefs - while they all seek to promulgate altruism --- and --- while the same organization or society have a leader or leaders who promulgate a certain doctrine on behalf of the organization or society and on behalf of the members in the organization or society --- THEN we find that it in fact is Sectarian and NOT non-sectarian despite its and its leader(s) claims.

                      c) Some claim that all organizations more or less coerce their members along a particular path and claim (in opposition) that an anti-organizational stance is best when promulgating altruism - and that it is a real non-sectarian stance. But this might not prove to be the best idea when one claim to promulgate altruism on our planet in our present day and time. Because it seem obvious that union is strength, and to go it alone is triple-fold selfishness. With an anti-organizational stance - it must much more difficult - to promulgate altruism and to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. This seems quite obvious.

                      d) In an Absolutely Non-sectarian organization or society - claiming - to be non-sectarian - we find that no members nor any administrative officials of any kind promulgate any teaching on behalf of the organization or society and neither a teaching on behalf of the members in the organization or society. There is only an organizational frame with a few objects based on a concept with EACH individual member seeking to find their own individual truth about the meaning of life and its truth based on real knowledge and scientific search (not fanatical beliefs) - while seeking the promulgation of altruism. No two humans are ever in complete agreement about the meaning of life and its truth. - In an Absolutely Non-sectarian organization or society nobody seek - to coerce or pressurize anyone along any particular path.

                      These organizational structures and views do really exist. I do not think that anyone would oppose this view.

                      And it is the latter version I find that the early version of the Theosophical Society was based upon in the years 1875-1891, and especially after the year 1888. If later versions and offshoots of the Theosophical Society has deviated from the above Absolutely non-sectarian concept, such organizations can (as I see it) only be recommended to revert back to this noble Absolutely Non-sectarian organizational structure - especially if they claim to be based on the Original Theosophical Society and if their main object still is the promulgation of altruism and which necessarily also in the same object includes the object - "to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities". (The Key to Theosophy, p. 3)

                      To all the readers of this:
                      - Is all the above useful with regard to the promulgation of altruism?
                      - Or are your silence an expression of consent?
                      - Any comments?

                      I hold the above to be central to understand with regard to the promulgation of altruism along organizational lines. And that the Theosophical Society originally was promulgated with these organizational views in mind -in most respects if not all of them. (See also the references in the below.)

                      I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon the above.


                      ____________

                      References to help in understanding the above words - with regard to the Theosophical Society - are hereby given by me. And more could be added if in need...:

                      1)
                      "The Key to Theosophy", p. 3 + 57 + 59-60 - by Blavatsky, 1889
                      http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

                      2)
                      "PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES" - by Blavatsky
                      (BCW, Vol. XI, p. 60 - October 1889)
                      http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v11/y1889_060.htm

                      3)
                      "COMMENTS ON “THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND H.P.B.”..." - by H. T. Patterson
                      (BCW, Vol. XIII, p. 115-121, - especially the Footnotes by Blavatsky - Febrauary 1891)
                      http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v13/y1891_004.htm

                      4)
                      [“ORIGINAL PROGRAMME” MANUSCRIPT] - by Blavatsky , 1886
                      " Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
                      .......
                      "(1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence to oppose selfishness of any kind, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Members—at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each other’s shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domain—moral or physical—and even, in daily life. "
                      .......
                      "(2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticism—belief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticising the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)—such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged.

                      Thus, for the first year the Members of the T. Body who representing every class in Society as every creed and belief—Christian clergymen, Spiritualists, Freethinkers, Mystics, Masons and Materialists—lived and met under these rules in peace and friendship."
                      http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm

                      5)
                      The Co-Founder - H. S. Olcott and the General Council of the Theosophical Society year 1888 in the following.
                      --- GENERAL REPORT of the THIRTEENTH CONVENTION AND ANNIVERSARY of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY --- At the Head-Quarters, Adyar, Madras, December The 27th, 28th, and 29th,-1888.
                      ( Especially the section with "The Revised Rules", page 23 in the PDF and "The President-Founders Address", page 2 in the PDF. And in fact the whole report as such.)
                      http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/theosophist/theosophist_vol_10_convention_report_1888.pdf

                      6) Indoctrination in Wikipedia
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

                      7) WHAT IS THEOSOPHY?, - by Blavatsky, 1880
                      "To conclude this subject, our Society is entirely the opposite of every other society that exists. We do not permit in it the shadow of dogmatism, whether of religion or of science. Each in his own particular branch does and acts as it seems good to him, but no one thinks of imposing his ideas on others in our general meetings."

                      (--- M. Sufilight says: And therefore not even the ideas like the present day TS Declarations are an expression of, and neither the idea of the importance of 13 Eminent Theosophists. --- Anyone? Or is it just silence we all hear echoing from the present day TS Adyar to such a central issue?)
                      http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v2/y1880_067.htm




                      All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism.
                      And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.



                      M. Sufilight


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ramanujachary nallanchakravarti
                      To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:05 AM
                      Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                      Organization is as important as the philosophy that it attempts to promote/popularize. There can be no second opinion on this.
                      Organizational structure has a "Basic" character. One may in later years change certain rules and regulations; and yet the "Basic Structure" of the Organization cannot be downplayed or substituted. If this is done, the Original purpose of the established organization vanishes.
                      It is also true that an Organization has invariably certain inherent disabilities, mainly because of the human nature and its failure in appreciation and application. Constant effort is to see that the organizational stucture will not fall into a pit because of the inherent disabilities.
                      Altruism, Compassion, Unity, Brotherhood are such terms in Literature (philosophy) that do not change day after day. They stem from the basic idea of 'collecting the laws of nature that govern the universe and to diffuse them'..Literature is for Portrayal of Philosophic Ideas.Dr N C Ramanujachary(Srivirinchi)Besant Gardens, The Theosophical Society, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 Phone: 044/24913584, Mobile: 9444963584From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...>Sent: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 21:03:33 To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                      Dear CassMy views are:I am not sure I understand this short formulated question and the aggreesive tone of voice in your formulation.I would ask: If looking at past literary output is not unimportant, how can past organizational output, formulations and facts be unimportant unless one seek to think along sectarian lines in stead of non-sectarian lines, organizationally, where the latter clearly is better at promulgating altruism for humanity - compared to organizational sectarian bias?Organizational structures are not unimportant when one seek to promulgate altruism for the sake of all humanity. And I hold it ethically to be a mistake to think otherwise. And to think that the original organizational structure of the Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 (when the Co-Founders still lived) at all cost be completely disregarded (without explaining why) when we in our present hours seek to promulgate altruism and a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity - claimed - to be based on the SAME original Theosophical Society - is as far as I am concerned not an expression of wisdom. These are however of course only my views. If others disagree on this, they could kindly and in the name of compassion tell the readers about it.There has not been anyone claiming any - stabbing - going on, this aggressive word seem only to be coming from you Cass. I see no reason to plaster other persons with bad intentions based on no documentation what so ever. I could well meanningly and kindly suggest, that you seek to be more altruisitic in your formulation and seek to at least elaborate a bit more on what you actually ask about, giving me and others a chance to understand what your question is all about.Yet, misunderstandings seem to occur, when on exchange using physical words on a forum.All the above are merely my views.M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 2:41 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansWho stabbed who in the back really has nothing to do with the teachings?Cass________________________________From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 3 July 2013 1:52 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansDear Cass and all readersMy views are:I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early theosophists?) And I think you perhaps misunderstand, what the focus of my exchange in thsi thread is all about.Some people learn from the past, others do not. It seems.If you have it as your objects to promulgate altruism and an Universal Brotherhood along the lines and as well as objects given in the Theosophical Society, then I think it is ethically quite important that you are aquainted with the original intention behind the Theosophical Society as it was given by the Co-Founders, and seek to avoid jumping to fast conclusions based on insufficient data with regard to whether the present day Theosophical Society still follow the same concepts and objects organizationally speaking - or do not follow them. With other words it cannot be unimportant if the Theosophical Society has deteriorated - ethically - in its original objects and organizational concepts. And it cannot be unimportant to understand the original intention with the Theosophical Society. These are my views.There are however also those who prefer to remain ignorant about the facts related to the clear deviations from the original lines and objects of the Theosophical Society as they were given by the main Co-Founders - and - remain ignorant about the ethical implications such deviations actually have had or still have for the Theosophical Society - and - even related theosophical organizations.The truth about almost all major well known organizations of the past originally based on altruism is that they began and started out with a genuine good and ethical idea and concept organizationally speaking - and - later they almost all of them have deteriorated into exoteric materialism or bigotted sectarianism or worse, more or less. Let us seek to avoid the same happen with the Theospohical Society, - and avoid it in all respects.One major reason being that the difference and ethical importance about the difference - between an absolutly non-sectarian organization - and - a sectarian organization has not been understood, or has been misunderstood. And still is being misunderstood. At least it seems so.Others of course prefer to consider altruism unimportant.Then the Theosphical Society as given in its original formulation is not for them.All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism. And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:13 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansIsn't it time we all let the past go? What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.Cass________________________________From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansDear Mark and all readersMy views are:Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258(June 17th, 2013)And also here:Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262(June 20th, 2013)M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Jaqua To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PMSubject: theos-talk Early TS plansI thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy.""Some Theosophical Plans - P. A. Malpas"It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'"Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be: "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....(b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....(c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....(d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.(e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.(f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'" It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"(Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)-------------------[Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • M. Sufilight
                      Dear friends My views are: Silence. Since Ramanujachary apparently is unable to answer the below email by me - or is un-interested in it, - I would like to ask
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 9, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear friends

                        My views are:

                        Silence.

                        Since Ramanujachary apparently is unable to answer the below email by me - or is un-interested in it, - I would like to ask if any other readers would like to comment on it?


                        _______

                        I seem somehow always to hit a steel-wall of huge silence when I ask questions to members of TS Adyar about the present day Teosophical Society Adyar International is following the original intention with the Theosophical Society as given in 1875-1891, or, whether it has deviated from it with regard to central ethical aspects.

                        Either the present day Teosophical Society Adyar International is visibly non-sectarian or it is not.
                        And if it really and truly is non-sectarian, as it originally was defined to be, it seems clearly to fail in making its message being understood both on its many websites and in its overall activities - ie. with regard to public opinion.

                        I find the below email by me to be very central to the problems that the Teosophical Society Adyar International at present are facing with regard to decline in membership - and - how public opinion about the Society is operating while plastering it with being merely a sect of orthodox theosophy, or with being a sect having its "Masters Revealed" and its Co-founder Blavatsky called a liar, etc., etc. One just need to read what - for instance - the present day dictionaries and wikipedia are saying about the word "theosophy" and the term "Teosophical Society".

                        All the above are of course merely my views and questions.

                        No comments?


                        M. Sufilight


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: M. Sufilight
                        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:36 PM
                        Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans



                        Dear all readers

                        My views are:

                        Ramanujachary wrote:
                        "Organization is as important as the philosophy that it attempts to promote/popularize. There can be no second opinion on this."

                        M. Sufilight says:
                        I can not just agree with this view as it is formulated. It might be true when we talk about a sectarian organization, whether or not it call itself theosophical or something similar. And also true with regard to an organization claiming to be non-sectarian when it in fact promulgates a sectarian doctrine, and can be proven to do so. But, - It is logical to me, that it is NOT true, when we talk about an absolutely non-sectarian organization - because such an organization does not promote or seek to popularize any doctrines or teachings. More on this in the below.

                        Ramanujachary wrote:
                        "Organizational structure has a "Basic" character. One may in later years change certain rules and regulations; and yet the "Basic Structure" of the Organization cannot be downplayed or substituted. If this is done, the Original purpose of the established organization vanishes."

                        M. Sufilight says:
                        The above words, I am in agreement with. Yet, one aught as I see it to add that the total validity of this view certainly might depend on the size of the organization, and for instance on either time, place, people and circumstance, or one or more of them.

                        The promulgation of altruism for the sake of all humanity in for instance an absolutely non-sectarian Society like the Theosophical Society requires no doubt a kind of organic or "organic" change in the organizational structure through time where such an organization necessarily must relate itself to the circumstances it has its existence in, and the possibilities thereof of such an existence. This seems obvious.

                        One could also say the following...where I here define the word "sectarian" in my own manner due to lack of better words in the vocabulary. (Maybe "subtle-sectarian" is a better term to use.) Here we go...

                        a) In a sectarian organization or society - we experience that there are a leader or a group of leaders who promulgate a certain doctrine on behalf of the organization or society and on behalf of the members in the organization or society.

                        b) In an organization or society - claiming - to be non-sectarian because it is allowing members from all kinds of religions and beliefs - while they all seek to promulgate altruism --- and --- while the same organization or society have a leader or leaders who promulgate a certain doctrine on behalf of the organization or society and on behalf of the members in the organization or society --- THEN we find that it in fact is Sectarian and NOT non-sectarian despite its and its leader(s) claims.

                        c) Some claim that all organizations more or less coerce their members along a particular path and claim (in opposition) that an anti-organizational stance is best when promulgating altruism - and that it is a real non-sectarian stance. But this might not prove to be the best idea when one claim to promulgate altruism on our planet in our present day and time. Because it seem obvious that union is strength, and to go it alone is triple-fold selfishness. With an anti-organizational stance - it must much more difficult - to promulgate altruism and to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. This seems quite obvious.

                        d) In an Absolutely Non-sectarian organization or society - claiming - to be non-sectarian - we find that no members nor any administrative officials of any kind promulgate any teaching on behalf of the organization or society and neither a teaching on behalf of the members in the organization or society. There is only an organizational frame with a few objects based on a concept with EACH individual member seeking to find their own individual truth about the meaning of life and its truth based on real knowledge and scientific search (not fanatical beliefs) - while seeking the promulgation of altruism. No two humans are ever in complete agreement about the meaning of life and its truth. - In an Absolutely Non-sectarian organization or society nobody seek - to coerce or pressurize anyone along any particular path.

                        These organizational structures and views do really exist. I do not think that anyone would oppose this view.

                        And it is the latter version I find that the early version of the Theosophical Society was based upon in the years 1875-1891, and especially after the year 1888. If later versions and offshoots of the Theosophical Society has deviated from the above Absolutely non-sectarian concept, such organizations can (as I see it) only be recommended to revert back to this noble Absolutely Non-sectarian organizational structure - especially if they claim to be based on the Original Theosophical Society and if their main object still is the promulgation of altruism and which necessarily also in the same object includes the object - "to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities". (The Key to Theosophy, p. 3)

                        To all the readers of this:
                        - Is all the above useful with regard to the promulgation of altruism?
                        - Or are your silence an expression of consent?
                        - Any comments?

                        I hold the above to be central to understand with regard to the promulgation of altruism along organizational lines. And that the Theosophical Society originally was promulgated with these organizational views in mind -in most respects if not all of them. (See also the references in the below.)

                        I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon the above.

                        ____________

                        References to help in understanding the above words - with regard to the Theosophical Society - are hereby given by me. And more could be added if in need...:

                        1)
                        "The Key to Theosophy", p. 3 + 57 + 59-60 - by Blavatsky, 1889
                        http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

                        2)
                        "PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES" - by Blavatsky
                        (BCW, Vol. XI, p. 60 - October 1889)
                        http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v11/y1889_060.htm

                        3)
                        "COMMENTS ON “THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND H.P.B.”..." - by H. T. Patterson
                        (BCW, Vol. XIII, p. 115-121, - especially the Footnotes by Blavatsky - Febrauary 1891)
                        http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v13/y1891_004.htm

                        4)
                        [“ORIGINAL PROGRAMME” MANUSCRIPT] - by Blavatsky , 1886
                        " Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
                        .......
                        "(1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence to oppose selfishness of any kind, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Members—at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each other’s shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domain—moral or physical—and even, in daily life. "
                        .......
                        "(2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticism—belief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticising the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)—such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged.

                        Thus, for the first year the Members of the T. Body who representing every class in Society as every creed and belief—Christian clergymen, Spiritualists, Freethinkers, Mystics, Masons and Materialists—lived and met under these rules in peace and friendship."
                        http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm

                        5)
                        The Co-Founder - H. S. Olcott and the General Council of the Theosophical Society year 1888 in the following.
                        --- GENERAL REPORT of the THIRTEENTH CONVENTION AND ANNIVERSARY of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY --- At the Head-Quarters, Adyar, Madras, December The 27th, 28th, and 29th,-1888.
                        ( Especially the section with "The Revised Rules", page 23 in the PDF and "The President-Founders Address", page 2 in the PDF. And in fact the whole report as such.)
                        http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/theosophist/theosophist_vol_10_convention_report_1888.pdf

                        6) Indoctrination in Wikipedia
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

                        7) WHAT IS THEOSOPHY?, - by Blavatsky, 1880
                        "To conclude this subject, our Society is entirely the opposite of every other society that exists. We do not permit in it the shadow of dogmatism, whether of religion or of science. Each in his own particular branch does and acts as it seems good to him, but no one thinks of imposing his ideas on others in our general meetings."

                        (--- M. Sufilight says: And therefore not even the ideas like the present day TS Declarations are an expression of, and neither the idea of the importance of 13 Eminent Theosophists. --- Anyone? Or is it just silence we all hear echoing from the present day TS Adyar to such a central issue?)
                        http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v2/y1880_067.htm

                        All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism.
                        And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.

                        M. Sufilight

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Ramanujachary nallanchakravarti
                        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:05 AM
                        Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                        Organization is as important as the philosophy that it attempts to promote/popularize. There can be no second opinion on this.
                        Organizational structure has a "Basic" character. One may in later years change certain rules and regulations; and yet the "Basic Structure" of the Organization cannot be downplayed or substituted. If this is done, the Original purpose of the established organization vanishes.
                        It is also true that an Organization has invariably certain inherent disabilities, mainly because of the human nature and its failure in appreciation and application. Constant effort is to see that the organizational stucture will not fall into a pit because of the inherent disabilities.
                        Altruism, Compassion, Unity, Brotherhood are such terms in Literature (philosophy) that do not change day after day. They stem from the basic idea of 'collecting the laws of nature that govern the universe and to diffuse them'..Literature is for Portrayal of Philosophic Ideas.Dr N C Ramanujachary(Srivirinchi)Besant Gardens, The Theosophical Society, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 Phone: 044/24913584, Mobile: 9444963584From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...>Sent: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 21:03:33 To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>Subject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plans

                        Dear CassMy views are:I am not sure I understand this short formulated question and the aggreesive tone of voice in your formulation.I would ask: If looking at past literary output is not unimportant, how can past organizational output, formulations and facts be unimportant unless one seek to think along sectarian lines in stead of non-sectarian lines, organizationally, where the latter clearly is better at promulgating altruism for humanity - compared to organizational sectarian bias?Organizational structures are not unimportant when one seek to promulgate altruism for the sake of all humanity. And I hold it ethically to be a mistake to think otherwise. And to think that the original organizational structure of the Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 (when the Co-Founders still lived) at all cost be completely disregarded (without explaining why) when we in our present hours seek to promulgate altruism and a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity - claimed - to be based on the SAME original Theosophical Society - is as far as I am concerned not an expression of wisdom. These are however of course only my views. If others disagree on this, they could kindly and in the name of compassion tell the readers about it.There has not been anyone claiming any - stabbing - going on, this aggressive word seem only to be coming from you Cass. I see no reason to plaster other persons with bad intentions based on no documentation what so ever. I could well meanningly and kindly suggest, that you seek to be more altruisitic in your formulation and seek to at least elaborate a bit more on what you actually ask about, giving me and others a chance to understand what your question is all about.Yet, misunderstandings seem to occur, when on exchange using physical words on a forum.All the above are merely my views.M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 2:41 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansWho stabbed who in the back really has nothing to do with the teachings?Cass________________________________From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 3 July 2013 1:52 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansDear Cass and all readersMy views are:I tend to disagree with you on this Cass. (If you are right, why should anyone then read the writings of the early theosophists?) And I think you perhaps misunderstand, what the focus of my exchange in thsi thread is all about.Some people learn from the past, others do not. It seems.If you have it as your objects to promulgate altruism and an Universal Brotherhood along the lines and as well as objects given in the Theosophical Society, then I think it is ethically quite important that you are aquainted with the original intention behind the Theosophical Society as it was given by the Co-Founders, and seek to avoid jumping to fast conclusions based on insufficient data with regard to whether the present day Theosophical Society still follow the same concepts and objects organizationally speaking - or do not follow them. With other words it cannot be unimportant if the Theosophical Society has deteriorated - ethically - in its original objects and organizational concepts. And it cannot be unimportant to understand the original intention with the Theosophical Society. These are my views.There are however also those who prefer to remain ignorant about the facts related to the clear deviations from the original lines and objects of the Theosophical Society as they were given by the main Co-Founders - and - remain ignorant about the ethical implications such deviations actually have had or still have for the Theosophical Society - and - even related theosophical organizations.The truth about almost all major well known organizations of the past originally based on altruism is that they began and started out with a genuine good and ethical idea and concept organizationally speaking - and - later they almost all of them have deteriorated into exoteric materialism or bigotted sectarianism or worse, more or less. Let us seek to avoid the same happen with the Theospohical Society, - and avoid it in all respects.One major reason being that the difference and ethical importance about the difference - between an absolutly non-sectarian organization - and - a sectarian organization has not been understood, or has been misunderstood. And still is being misunderstood. At least it seems so.Others of course prefer to consider altruism unimportant.Then the Theosphical Society as given in its original formulation is not for them.All the above are just my views, seeking to promulgate altruism, non-sectarian altruism. And I will heartily welcome any well meant improvements upon them.M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:13 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansIsn't it time we all let the past go? What happened happened and there's very little we can do about events that occured before our existence.Cass________________________________From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@...>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:50 AMSubject: Re: theos-talk Early TS plansDear Mark and all readersMy views are:Yes. But these plans or perhaps rather objects was clearly changed in the year 1888 by the Theosophical Society, and supported by the three Co-Founders - H. S. Olcott, H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. This happened, as written, because of the growth of the Society and other reasons, ethical reasons.I have shown this recently on this forum in the following post:The Dec. 1888 CONVENTION of the THEOSPOHICAL SOCIETY http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60258(June 17th, 2013)And also here:Some Comments on Esoteric within Exoteric http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/60262(June 20th, 2013)M. Sufilight----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Jaqua To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 3:54 PMSubject: theos-talk Early TS plansI thought the following excerpt by Malpas from an early 1880 TS flyer in India was interesting about the early plans of the Society. Item (e) indicates a commercial and very practical level effort to better people's lives, as well as the promotion of non-Sectarian Education in item (f) also mentioned in "Key to Theosophy.""Some Theosophical Plans - P. A. Malpas"It is interesting to look back over the years and compare plans with their fulfilment. We were lately reading an old announcement dated some thirty-two years ago. It is a document printed and published in India shortly after the Society had sent its delegates from New York to that country to establish the Theosophical work there. The title is 'Theosophical Society or Universal Brotherhood.'"Mention is made of "the plans of the Society," and these plans are declared, among other things, to be: "' (a) To keep alive in man his belief that he has a soul....(b) To oppose and counteract bigotry in every form....(c) To gather for the Society's Library and to put into written form correct information upon the various philosophies, traditions, and legends....(d) To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of nature and aid in diffusing it, thus to encourage the study of those laws least understood by modern people.... Popular superstition and folklore, however fantastical, when sifted may sometimes lead to the discovery of long-lost but important secrets of Nature. The Society, therefore, aims to pursue that line of inquiry in the hope to widen the field of scientific and philosophical observation.(e) To promote a feeling of Brotherhood among nations, and assist in the international exchange of useful arts and products.(f) To promote in every practicable way, in countries where needed, the spread of non-sectarian Western education, and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual.'" It is curious to observe in face of the above, that from time to time strange notions have been set afloat as to the aims and plans of the original fountainhead and Founder of the Society, Madame H.P. Blavatsky. Perhaps the strangest part, assuming no malicious misinterpretation, is the way in which a few seemingly sensible people came to believe (or professed to believe) queer ideas, such for instance as that lack of ethics, dogmatism, and an aversion to the practical work of Brotherhood, are compatible with those plans......"(Theosophical Path, Vol. 2, no. 6, June, 1912, pp. 393-94)-------------------[Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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