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Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question

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  • proto37
    All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it. -
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
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      All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
      - jake j.

      --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
      >
      > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
      >
      > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
      >
      > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
      >
      > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
      > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
      >
      > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
      > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
      >
      > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
      >
      > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
      >
      > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince Rákóczy.... Any connection with the House of Rákóczy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
      >
      > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
      >
      > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: hozro@...
      > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
      > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
      >
      >
      > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
      > > - jake j.
      >
      >
      > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Jeremy Condick
      Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC. ... [Non-text
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



        > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
        > From: hozro@...
        > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
        > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
        >
        > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
        > - jake j.
        >
        > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
        > >
        > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
        > >
        > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
        > >
        > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names�as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
        > >
        > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
        > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
        > >
        > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
        > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
        > >
        > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
        > >
        > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
        > >
        > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince R�k�czy.... Any connection with the House of R�k�czy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
        > >
        > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
        > >
        > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
        > > > From: hozro@...
        > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
        > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
        > >
        > >
        > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
        > > > - jake j.
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M. Sufilight
        A few views... I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy. Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the relevancy of your views... M.
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
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          A few views...

          I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
          Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
          relevancy of your views...


          M. Sufilight

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
          To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
          Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



          Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
          denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          > From: hozro@...
          > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
          > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
          >
          > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
          > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes
          > books on it.
          > - jake j.
          >
          > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time
          > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
          > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
          > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
          > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
          > >
          > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
          > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to
          > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
          > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
          > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
          > >
          > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
          > > birth." BCW III 123.
          > >
          > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
          > > capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare,
          > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
          > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as
          > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
          > >
          > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real
          > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of
          > > that royal and unhappy line ...
          > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
          > >
          > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 -
          > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
          > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
          > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
          > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
          > >
          > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable
          > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
          > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have
          > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17
          > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
          > >
          > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development
          > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
          > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home
          > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at
          > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
          > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
          > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and
          > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
          > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
          > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
          > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard,
          > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
          > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of
          > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
          > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
          > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
          > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
          > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
          > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge,
          > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the
          > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
          > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great
          > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
          > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
          > >
          > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
          > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer
          > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
          > > Rבkףczy.... Any connection with the House of Rבkףczy on the part of
          > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
          > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea
          > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
          > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
          > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
          > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to
          > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
          > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected
          > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
          > >
          > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
          > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
          > >
          > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
          > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          > > > From: hozro@...
          > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
          > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
          > >
          > >
          > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student
          > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
          > > > - jake j.
          > >
          > >
          > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count
          > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent
          > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of
          > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
          > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Jeremy Condick
          Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn t long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of world
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn't long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of world problems, military expansion, for the police system, weapons/arms industry etc.

            You also stated that AAB 'circles' promote these world problems, and that "Being a well meaning person does not remove these simple facts". Making things up to suit your prejudice is no excuse to create opportunity for condemnation or attack of Alice Bailey.

            There is certainly no relevancy to any of it, just pretentious ignorance and fairy tails. JPC.




            > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
            > From: global-theosophy@...
            > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:18:26 +0100
            > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
            >
            > A few views...
            >
            > I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
            > Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
            > relevancy of your views...
            >
            >
            > M. Sufilight
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
            > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
            > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
            >
            >
            > Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
            > denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.
            >
            >
            >
            > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: hozro@...
            > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
            > > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
            > >
            > >
            > > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
            > > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes
            > > books on it.
            > > - jake j.
            > >
            > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time
            > > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
            > > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
            > > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
            > > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
            > > >
            > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
            > > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to
            > > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
            > > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
            > > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
            > > >
            > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
            > > > birth." BCW III 123.
            > > >
            > > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
            > > > capitals, under various names�as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare,
            > > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
            > > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as
            > > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
            > > >
            > > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real
            > > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of
            > > > that royal and unhappy line ...
            > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
            > > >
            > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 -
            > > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
            > > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
            > > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
            > > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
            > > >
            > > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable
            > > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
            > > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have
            > > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17
            > > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
            > > >
            > > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development
            > > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
            > > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home
            > > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at
            > > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
            > > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
            > > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and
            > > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
            > > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
            > > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
            > > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard,
            > > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
            > > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of
            > > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
            > > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
            > > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
            > > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
            > > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
            > > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge,
            > > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the
            > > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
            > > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great
            > > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
            > > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
            > > >
            > > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
            > > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer
            > > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
            > > > R�k�czy.... Any connection with the House of R�k�czy on the part of
            > > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
            > > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea
            > > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
            > > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
            > > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
            > > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to
            > > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
            > > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected
            > > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
            > > >
            > > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
            > > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
            > > >
            > > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
            > > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > From: hozro@...
            > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
            > > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student
            > > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
            > > > > - jake j.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count
            > > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent
            > > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of
            > > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
            > > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • M. Sufilight
            Dear Jeremy My views are: I think, that we can agree upon, that the perception is in the eye of the beholder. What by you - apperently - were perceived as
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Jeremy

              My views are:

              I think, that we can agree upon, that the perception is in the eye of the
              beholder.
              What by you - apperently - were perceived as condemnation a few weeks back -
              was forwarded by me seeking the truth out of compassion - using -
              comparative studying between Alice A. Bailey's writings - and others,
              Blavatsky's included...as well as various kinds of documentation...I do
              certainly not comden Alice A. Bailey or anyone else. But I merely disagree,
              especially when people forward obvious lies - which can be documented. I
              certainly respect parts of Alice A. Bailey writings - even if you might
              perceive it differetly.
              I find such an activity on my part to be different than merely throwing
              negativity on something, without explaining the value of compassion in such
              an activity. But, in general we seldom find two persons who agrees on
              everything in this world of duality. I find that this also is a fact, we
              need to be aware of.
              Some people like comparative studying others do not. (The Theosophical
              Society had the aim of comparative studying...Som later theosophical related
              gorups avoid it at any cost...it seems.) And some - despise any kind of
              criticism of their beloved Guru, despite the crictism forwarded is backed by
              solid documentation (but what is solid?) - seeking the truth and seeking to
              forward compassion - and not lies. Lies like for instance - the prevalent
              idea that D.K. wrote large parts of Blavatsky's book the Secret Doctrine -
              as claimed by Alice A. Bailey and many fololowers of these books. A lie
              because documentation shows it to be a false claim.

              I do certainly respect your views even if I disagree with you. And I think
              you should know that, even if the documentation I have forwarded showing
              various inconsistencies between Alice A. Bailey's writings - and Blavatsky's
              mught hurt you - own agenda.

              Since I respect the Law of Karma - to the best of my abillities - I never
              fall so low as to become a Christian or similar and comdemn others as you
              claim about me. I merely disagree in a friendly wellmeant manner. That is
              all. Please - try to rephrase your views - if you meant something else.

              All the above was written seeking to be helpful - and - Jeremy not seeking
              to comdemn.

              Sometimes, we simply have to agree on that we disagree about various issues.
              I think however that we both agree upon that the Law of Karma is a reality
              and reincarnation as well. And the 7-fold organisation of this part of our
              universe related to the planet Earth and other issues. And that we agree
              upon that one seek to avoid sectarianism and cult behavior - and also avoid
              telling people that an organisation is non-sectarian when the opposite in
              fact is the truth about the matter. I do not fanatically forward these
              views - I merely present them, so to see if all of us can arrive at a better
              view on the meaning of life, compassion, wisdom etc. - and for instance also
              even a better view on Alice A. Bailey's writings. I am always open for such
              ideas.
              So I suggest that we do not make a mountain out of the views were we differ
              and forget the views where we agree. Yet, where people in general differ in
              views, cannot be called unimportant - I simply refuse to be emotional about
              disagreements - and call them condemnations. I do hope that is all right
              with you?

              Alle the above are just mky views. I might be in error, and I galdly welcome
              other views, so that we can help each other promote altruism.


              M. Sufilight

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
              To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:36 AM
              Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



              Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn't
              long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of
              world problems, military expansion, for the police system, weapons/arms
              industry etc.

              You also stated that AAB 'circles' promote these world problems, and that
              "Being a well meaning person does not remove these simple facts". Making
              things up to suit your prejudice is no excuse to create opportunity for
              condemnation or attack of Alice Bailey.

              There is certainly no relevancy to any of it, just pretentious ignorance and
              fairy tails. JPC.




              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
              > From: global-theosophy@...
              > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:18:26 +0100
              > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
              >
              > A few views...
              >
              > I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
              > Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
              > relevancy of your views...
              >
              >
              > M. Sufilight
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
              > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
              > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
              >
              >
              > Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
              > denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.
              >
              >
              >
              > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: hozro@...
              > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
              > > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
              > >
              > >
              > > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
              > > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should
              > > writes
              > > books on it.
              > > - jake j.
              > >
              > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this
              > > > time
              > > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
              > > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
              > > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
              > > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
              > > >
              > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
              > > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key
              > > > to
              > > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
              > > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
              > > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
              > > >
              > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
              > > > birth." BCW III 123.
              > > >
              > > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
              > > > capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count
              > > > Bellamare,
              > > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
              > > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally,
              > > > as
              > > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
              > > >
              > > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his
              > > > real
              > > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last
              > > > of
              > > > that royal and unhappy line ...
              > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
              > > >
              > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley -
              > > > 1997 -
              > > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
              > > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
              > > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
              > > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
              > > >
              > > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the
              > > > remarkable
              > > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
              > > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I
              > > > have
              > > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40
              > > > 17
              > > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
              > > >
              > > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future
              > > > development
              > > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
              > > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a
              > > > home
              > > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure
              > > > at
              > > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
              > > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
              > > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon
              > > > and
              > > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
              > > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
              > > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
              > > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black
              > > > beard,
              > > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
              > > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority
              > > > of
              > > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
              > > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
              > > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
              > > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
              > > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
              > > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the
              > > > Lodge,
              > > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as
              > > > the
              > > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
              > > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three
              > > > great
              > > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
              > > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
              > > >
              > > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
              > > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the
              > > > writer
              > > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
              > > > Rבkףczy.... Any connection with the House of Rבkףczy on the part of
              > > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
              > > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this
              > > > idea
              > > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
              > > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
              > > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
              > > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not
              > > > to
              > > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
              > > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence."
              > > > Collected
              > > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
              > > >
              > > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
              > > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
              > > >
              > > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
              > > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > From: hozro@...
              > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
              > > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers
              > > > > student
              > > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
              > > > > - jake j.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by
              > > > > > Count
              > > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the
              > > > > > magnificent
              > > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
              > > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • proto37
              Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                Also your BCW III quotes are misleading - they are not Blavatsky's words, but her quoting from a magazine.
                In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.

                http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby

                It matters not a gnats-hair who St. Germain or Count whats his name was to the corpus of Blavatsky's Teachings, which is the purpose of Theosophy.

                - jake j.

                >1b. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:32 pm ((PST))



                >Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                > From: hozro@...
                > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                >
                > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
                > - jake j.
                >
                > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                > >
                > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                > >
                > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
                > >
                > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names?as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                > >
                > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
                > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                > >
                > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
                > >
                > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                > >
                > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                > >
                > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince Rákóczy.... Any connection with the House of Rákóczy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                > >
                > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                > >
                > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                > > > From: hozro@...
                > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                > >
                > >
                > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                > > > - jake j.

                ------------------
              • Jeremy Condick
                ... Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the Tibetan consider the scheme of evolution offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.

                  > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                  >
                  > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                  >
                  >
                  > - jake j.


                  "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                  offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                  the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                  "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                  In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                  to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                  322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                  help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                  characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                  Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.

                  JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.

                  Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.

                  "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                  JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.

                  "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.

                  Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.

                  Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.

                  "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeremy Condick
                  JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 1, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.

                    "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.

                    "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.

                    JPC comments upon the following:
                    "Comments by the Compiler
                    1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                    the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                    The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                    adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                    2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                    specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                    See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                    Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                    appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                    of K.H. about to "graduate".
                    3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                    appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                    However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                    disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                    A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                    JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.

                    "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.

                    "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.

                    JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.

                    JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.

                    "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.




                    > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: jpcondick2011@...
                    > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                    > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                    >
                    >
                    > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                    >
                    > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > - jake j.
                    >
                    >
                    > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                    > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                    > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                    > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                    > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                    > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                    > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                    > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                    > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                    > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                    >
                    > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                    >
                    > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                    >
                    > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                    >
                    > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                    >
                    > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                    >
                    > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                    >
                    > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                    >
                    > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jeremy Condick
                    ... NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE - By Basil Crump Introductory Postulates These are stated to be extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 3, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- 7
                      NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                      - By Basil Crump
                      Introductory Postulates
                      These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                      Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                      Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                      Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                      Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                      of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                      "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."

                      The reader is constantly referred
                      to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                      "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                      is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                      whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                      designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                      mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                      little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                      and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                      same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                      It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                      and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                      Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                      A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                      JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.

                      This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.

                      Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.

                      HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.

                      "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.

                      "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.

                      "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.

                      "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                      "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.

                      "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                      soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.

                      "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                      value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                      hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                      July, 1881, p. 218.



                      JPC.



                      > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: jpcondick2011@...
                      > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                      > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                      >
                      >
                      > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                      >
                      > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                      >
                      > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                      >
                      > JPC comments upon the following:
                      > "Comments by the Compiler
                      > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                      > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                      > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                      > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                      > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                      > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                      > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                      > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                      > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                      > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                      > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                      > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                      > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                      > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                      > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                      >
                      > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                      >
                      > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                      >
                      > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                      >
                      > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                      >
                      > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                      >
                      > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                      > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                      > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                      > >
                      > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > - jake j.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                      > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                      > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                      > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                      > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                      > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                      > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                      > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                      > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                      > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                      > >
                      > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                      > >
                      > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                      > >
                      > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                      > >
                      > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                      > >
                      > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                      > >
                      > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                      > >
                      > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                      > >
                      > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeremy Condick
                      ... NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE - By Basil Crump ...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own... Also Seven centres of Logoic
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- 7
                        NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                        - By Basil Crump
                        "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                        Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                        "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                        to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                        "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                        is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                        whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                        designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                        mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                        little or nothing and leads nowhere." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                        A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.

                        JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.

                        She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".

                        Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.

                        "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.

                        "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.

                        "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.

                        "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.

                        "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.

                        "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.

                        "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.

                        "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.

                        "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                        1. Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                        2. They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                        3. They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                        4. They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                        They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                        They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                        They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                        5. In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                        6. They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                        7. They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                        8. They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                        9. They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                        10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                        11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                        12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                        13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                        14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                        15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.

                        "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.

                        "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.

                        "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.

                        "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.

                        "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.

                        "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.

                        "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.



                        > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: jpcondick2011@...
                        > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                        > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- 7
                        > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                        > - By Basil Crump
                        > Introductory Postulates
                        > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                        > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                        > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                        > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                        > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                        > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                        > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                        >
                        > The reader is constantly referred
                        > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                        > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                        > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                        > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                        > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                        > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                        > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                        > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                        > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                        > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                        > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                        > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                        > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                        >
                        > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                        >
                        > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                        >
                        > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                        >
                        > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                        >
                        > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                        >
                        > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                        >
                        > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                        >
                        > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                        >
                        > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                        >
                        > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                        > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                        >
                        > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                        > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                        > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                        > July, 1881, p. 218.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > JPC.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                        > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                        > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                        > >
                        > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                        > >
                        > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                        > >
                        > > JPC comments upon the following:
                        > > "Comments by the Compiler
                        > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                        > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                        > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                        > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                        > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                        > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                        > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                        > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                        > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                        > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                        > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                        > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                        > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                        > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                        > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                        > >
                        > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                        > >
                        > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                        > >
                        > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                        > >
                        > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                        > >
                        > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                        > >
                        > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                        > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                        > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                        > > >
                        > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > - jake j.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                        > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                        > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                        > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                        > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                        > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                        > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                        > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                        > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                        > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                        > > >
                        > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                        > > >
                        > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                        > > >
                        > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                        > > >
                        > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                        > > >
                        > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                        > > >
                        > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                        > > >
                        > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                        > > >
                        > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Augoeides-222@comcast.net
                        Jeremy, all, I don t remember who  posted that DK was nick named The Tibetan but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jeremy, all,

                          I don't remember who  posted that DK was nick named "The Tibetan" but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the C zar' s, concurrent with time Madame Blavatsky was alive and it is a synchronicity the Badmaev was also affectionatel y nick named "The Tibetan". It seems the nick name travels a bit huh?



                          Also my own personal view while not having a horse in the race in regard to true or false, right or wrong doctrines let me post a couple of links in order that some air may be cleared as to earlier origins of Madame Blavatsky's wonderful works that reveal very nice correspondents with what she wrote as incomplete as she states, this does not in my view mean did ont previous y exist or had been taught in fuller contents. There are I ave found several sources of the far past in the East that had famous revered Teachings that due to the reality of Metaphysics being the statement of Higher Intrinsic unasail able Transcendental or Cosmological First Princip als alwa s are found in true Teachings. Here are only two links which if read with open mind and compared to Blavatsky on e will find the framework of similar outline of Doctrine. This is only one example from one older Paradigma, other like Buddhism are also very similar.

                             There is not always aligment of present day views to the Parents who gifted mankind these to the western peoples obscure thought forms, like the 4 stages of the Buddhist Arhat, the Stream Swimmers, there are also 4 stages of Nirvana. And the higher Arhat has arrived to begin qualification as Bodhisattva rather that outright Buddhahood notwithstanding that we all are inherently buddha Principal possessing indexed to the apparency of location in a manisfested projection of a secondary universe.



                          Five Acts of Siva' --- Tirumantirum



                          >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TIRUMANTIRAM-TMTM04.htm<<<



                          The Stem Substance ---- Akasha



                          >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/POTPOURRI.htm<<<



                          As mentioned earlier in a members post a full complete discursive ancient vocabulary and text was not provided in order that understanding may be completed, spite not thy parents in their old age, they sti ll can instruct.



                          Regards,

                          John

                          ----- Original Message -----


                          From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:13:58 PM
                          Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



                          --- 7
                          NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                          - By Basil Crump
                          "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                          Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                          "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                          to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                          "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                          is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                          whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                          designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                          mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                          little or nothing and leads nowhere."  Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                          A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.

                          JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.
                           
                          She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".
                           
                          Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.
                           
                          "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.
                           
                          "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.
                           
                          "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.
                           
                          "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.
                           
                          "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.
                           
                          "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.
                           
                          "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.
                           
                          "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.
                           
                          "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                          1.  Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                          2.  They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                          3.  They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                          4.  They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                           They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                           They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                           They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                          5.  In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                          6.  They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                          7.  They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                          8.  They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                          9.  They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                          10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                          11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                          12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                          13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                          14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                          15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.
                           
                          "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.
                           
                          "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.
                           
                          "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.
                           
                          "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.
                           
                          "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.
                           
                          "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.
                           
                          "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.  

                           

                          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: jpcondick2011@...
                          > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                          > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- 7
                          > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                          > - By Basil Crump
                          > Introductory Postulates
                          > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                          > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                          > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                          > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                          > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                          > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                          > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                          >
                          > The reader is constantly referred
                          > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                          > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                          > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                          > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                          > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                          > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                          > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                          > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                          > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                          > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                          > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                          > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                          > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                          >
                          > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                          >
                          > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                          >
                          > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                          >
                          > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                          >
                          > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                          >
                          > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                          >
                          > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                          >
                          > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                          >
                          > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                          >
                          > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                          > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                          >
                          > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                          > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                          > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                          > July, 1881, p. 218.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > JPC.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                          > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                          > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                          > >
                          > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                          > >
                          > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                          > >
                          > > JPC comments upon the following:
                          > > "Comments by the Compiler
                          > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                          > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                          > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                          > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                          > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                          > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                          > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                          > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                          > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                          > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                          > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                          > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                          > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                          > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                          > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                          > >
                          > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                          > >
                          > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                          > >
                          > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                          > >
                          > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                          > >
                          > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                          > >
                          > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                          > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                          > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                          > > >
                          > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > - jake j.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                          > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                          > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                          > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                          > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                          > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                          > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                          > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                          > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                          > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                          > > >
                          > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                          > > >
                          > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                          > > >
                          > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                          > > >
                          > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                          > > >
                          > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                          > > >
                          > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                          > > >
                          > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                          > > >
                          > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                                                                         

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                        • Mark Jaqua
                          Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming to come from Blavatsky's school.

                            Do you have any idea how many Bailey type channelers there are with big bunches of books? - dozens, maybe hundreds considering all that didn't "catch on" and disappeared into the past. 'All their followers mesmerized and thinking they are following something really great. None of them, however, come close to comparing to Blavatsky. For one thing, none of them seem to be able to continuous quote and refer to other sources - which Blavatsky does thousands of times (see the 1000 book bibliography in the back of TPH's "Isis Unveiled," for instance - and this just for Isis, let alone all her other books.) Quoting and doing references is just too much work for the channellers (who usually can't even manage to keep making sense). The few Quotes Bailey uses, according to Cleather - are phoney quotes ("different editions" does not hold water" ) - so Good Lord! - how can somebody not be alerted to malfeisance as outrageous and "in your face as this?" Maybe the Bailey entity got a few quotes right too, I don't know.

                            If Bailey is right for you - then by all means stick with Bailey. I think you should!

                            As for the SD being incomplete - well of course it is.


                            -------------
                            >2a. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                            Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                            Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:28 pm ((PST))

                            --- 7
                            >NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                            - By Basil Crump
                            >Introductory Postulates
                            >These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                            Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                            Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                            Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                            Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                            of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                            "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."

                            >The reader is constantly referred
                            to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                            "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                            >is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                            whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                            designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                            mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                            little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                            and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                            same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                            >It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                            and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                            Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                            A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                            >JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.

                            >This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.

                            >Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.

                            >HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.

                            >"Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.

                            >"It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.

                            >"It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.

                            >"One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                            >"But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.

                            >"The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                            soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.

                            >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                            value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                            hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                            July, 1881, p. 218.

                            >JPC.
                            ----------------------------
                            > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                            > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                            > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                            > >
                            > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > - jake j.
                            ----------------------



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jeremy Condick
                            Excellent, John! Will check out those links. Thanks. JC. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Excellent, John! Will check out those links. Thanks. JC.


                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: Augoeides-222@...
                              > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 02:33:19 +0000
                              > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re:off topic yet revenant
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jeremy, all,
                              >
                              > I don't remember who posted that DK was nick named "The Tibetan" but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the C zar' s, concurrent with time Madame Blavatsky was alive and it is a synchronicity the Badmaev was also affectionatel y nick named "The Tibetan". It seems the nick name travels a bit huh?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Also my own personal view while not having a horse in the race in regard to true or false, right or wrong doctrines let me post a couple of links in order that some air may be cleared as to earlier origins of Madame Blavatsky's wonderful works that reveal very nice correspondents with what she wrote as incomplete as she states, this does not in my view mean did ont previous y exist or had been taught in fuller contents. There are I ave found several sources of the far past in the East that had famous revered Teachings that due to the reality of Metaphysics being the statement of Higher Intrinsic unasail able Transcendental or Cosmological First Princip als alwa s are found in true Teachings. Here are only two links which if read with open mind and compared to Blavatsky on e will find the framework of similar outline of Doctrine. This is only one example from one older Paradigma, other like Buddhism are also very similar.
                              >
                              > There is not always aligment of present day views to the Parents who gifted mankind these to the western peoples obscure thought forms, like the 4 stages of the Buddhist Arhat, the Stream Swimmers, there are also 4 stages of Nirvana. And the higher Arhat has arrived to begin qualification as Bodhisattva rather that outright Buddhahood notwithstanding that we all are inherently buddha Principal possessing indexed to the apparency of location in a manisfested projection of a secondary universe.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Five Acts of Siva' --- Tirumantirum
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TIRUMANTIRAM-TMTM04.htm<<<
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The Stem Substance ---- Akasha
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/POTPOURRI.htm<<<
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > As mentioned earlier in a members post a full complete discursive ancient vocabulary and text was not provided in order that understanding may be completed, spite not thy parents in their old age, they sti ll can instruct.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              >
                              >
                              > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:13:58 PM
                              > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- 7
                              > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                              > - By Basil Crump
                              > "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                              > Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                              > "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                              > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                              > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                              > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                              > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                              > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                              > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                              > little or nothing and leads nowhere." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                              > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.
                              >
                              > JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.
                              >
                              > She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".
                              >
                              > Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.
                              >
                              > "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.
                              >
                              > "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.
                              >
                              > "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.
                              >
                              > "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.
                              >
                              > "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.
                              >
                              > "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.
                              >
                              > "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.
                              >
                              > "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.
                              >
                              > "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                              > 1. Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                              > 2. They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                              > 3. They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                              > 4. They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                              > They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                              > They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                              > They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                              > 5. In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                              > 6. They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                              > 7. They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                              > 8. They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                              > 9. They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                              > 10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                              > 11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                              > 12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                              > 13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                              > 14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                              > 15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.
                              >
                              > "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.
                              >
                              > "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.
                              >
                              > "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.
                              >
                              > "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.
                              >
                              > "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.
                              >
                              > "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.
                              >
                              > "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                              > > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                              > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- 7
                              > > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                              > > - By Basil Crump
                              > > Introductory Postulates
                              > > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                              > > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                              > > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                              > > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                              > > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                              > > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                              > > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                              > >
                              > > The reader is constantly referred
                              > > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                              > > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                              > > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                              > > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                              > > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                              > > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                              > > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                              > > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                              > > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                              > > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                              > > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                              > > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                              > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                              > >
                              > > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                              > >
                              > > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                              > >
                              > > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                              > >
                              > > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                              > >
                              > > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                              > >
                              > > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                              > >
                              > > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                              > >
                              > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                              > >
                              > > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                              > >
                              > > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                              > > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                              > >
                              > > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                              > > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                              > > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                              > > July, 1881, p. 218.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > JPC.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                              > > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                              > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                              > > >
                              > > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                              > > >
                              > > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                              > > >
                              > > > JPC comments upon the following:
                              > > > "Comments by the Compiler
                              > > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                              > > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                              > > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                              > > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                              > > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                              > > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                              > > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                              > > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                              > > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                              > > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                              > > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                              > > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                              > > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                              > > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                              > > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                              > > >
                              > > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                              > > >
                              > > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                              > > >
                              > > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                              > > >
                              > > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                              > > >
                              > > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                              > > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                              > > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > - jake j.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                              > > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                              > > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                              > > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                              > > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                              > > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                              > > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                              > > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                              > > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                              > > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
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                            • Jeremy Condick
                              ... JC: HPB stated... The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: hozro@...
                                > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:18:49 -0500
                                > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                >
                                > Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming to come from Blavatsky's school.

                                JC: HPB stated... "The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may not fit a meaning, say from the psychological or astronomical aspect, will be found quite correct from the physical or metaphysical." SD2 22.

                                "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                                "In A Treatise on Cosmic Fire the Tibetan has given us what H. P. Blavatsky prophesied he would give, namely, the psychological key to the Cosmic Creation. H.P.B. stated that in the 20th century a disciple would come who would give the psychological key to her own monumental work The Secret Doctrine on which treatise the Tibetan worked with her; and Alice A. Bailey worked in complete recognition of her own task in this sequence." TCF viii.

                                JC: There is no claim other than full recognition of this fact and in sequence the second phase or turning of the second psychological key was completed as prophesised by HPB for "Century the Twentieth".


                                > Do you have any idea how many Bailey type channelers there are with big bunches of books? - dozens, maybe hundreds considering all that didn't "catch on" and disappeared into the past. 'All their followers mesmerized and thinking they are following something really great. None of them, however, come close to comparing to Blavatsky. For one thing, none of them seem to be able to continuous quote and refer to other sources - which Blavatsky does thousands of times (see the 1000 book bibliography in the back of TPH's "Isis Unveiled," for instance - and this just for Isis, let alone all her other books.) Quoting and doing references is just too much work for the channellers (who usually can't even manage to keep making sense). The few Quotes Bailey uses, according to Cleather - are phoney quotes ("different editions" does not hold water" ) - so Good Lord! - how can somebody not be alerted to malfeisance as outrageous and "in your face as this?" Maybe the Bailey entity got a few quotes right too, I don't know.

                                JC: Your 'Cleather' reference, as a reliable source appears to be quite inadequate so far. I have aimed to show that where the claim of "phoney quotes" as you say appear, I will attempt to show that that it is a false claim. I gave one example in a previous letter. I gave another in my last letter, So far Crump has demonstrated his inability to substantiate that statement. But he and Cleather has highlighted the fact that they do not understand the works of HPB or AAB. The words of Crump on "Seven centres of Logoic Force" being "designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his mind" is falsity and does not stand up to reality of "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739. Be it Logoic or Dhyan-Chohanic for both are the same, the distribution of solar fire through out the centres of the Solar logos and through the heavenly men throughout the system is a part of the teachings given us. It would be wise to study the occult teachings before you copy Cleather and Crump with your claim of "malfeisance". It is offered "as understood" and on a "hypothetical" basis in the least.

                                > >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                > July, 1881, p. 218.


                                So the work of TCF explains the greater psychological meaning or revelation of the entities in the works of HPB. What is "phoney" according to you or your earlier detractors, about that. It is an expansion on previous work that complements it and references it and was a direct prediction recorded in the Secret Doctrine by HPB herself. Of course, the below from 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire' is just a fraction and merely serves as a snippet of the expansive work on the psychological nature of the entities of the solar system and Universe. Immediately below we see a SD quote referenced by AAB. From the edition I have of SD it is wrongly numbered but appears on page 107 rather than 132.

                                HPB informs she brought the first completely 'Physical or physiological key' and much historical information with the later deeper psychological elucidation coming via AAB that "disciple far better fitted" according to HPB. That second key expands on the psychological entities and seven rays throughout her books and "Treatise on the Seven rays". It is indication of prediction and occurance in factuality.

                                To give an example reference quote in brief composition from TCF you claim phony. "12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132." TCF 273.

                                "The Mind-born Sons, the Rishis, the Builders, etc., were all men -- of whatever forms and shapes -- in other worlds and the preceding Manvantaras.
                                This subject, being so very mystical, is therefore the most difficult to explain in all its details and bearings; since the whole mystery of evolutionary creation is contained in it." SD1 107.


                                "These three aspects of God, the solar Logos, and the Central Energy or Force (for the terms are occultly synonymous) demonstrate through seven centers of force, - three major centers and four minor. These seven centers of logoic Force are themselves so constituted that they form corporate Entities. They are known as
                                * The seven planetary Logoi.
                                * The seven Spirits before the Throne.
                                * The seven Rays.
                                * The seven Heavenly Men.
                                The Seven Logoi embody seven types of differentiated force, and in this Treatise are known under the names of Lords of the Rays. The names of the Rays are

                                * Ray I - Ray of Will or Power - 1st Aspect
                                * Ray II - Ray of Love-Wisdom - 2nd Aspect
                                * Ray III - Ray of Active Intelligence - 3rd Aspect
                                (These are the major Rays.)
                                * Ray IV - Ray of Harmony, Beauty and Art.
                                * Ray V - Ray of Concrete Knowledge or Science.
                                * Ray VI - Ray of Devotion or of Abstract Idealism.
                                * Ray VII - Ray of Ceremonial Magic or Order." TCF 5.

                                "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.

                                "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.

                                "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.

                                "* ...The center or Heavenly Man with Whom the Logos of their scheme is allied;
                                * Which two schemes form, with their own, a triangle for logoic force at a certain stage of evolutionary development;
                                * The secret of the cycles, or the periods of stimulation or obscuration;
                                then will the body logoic begin to achieve its purpose; then will the Logos of our system begin to blend and merge and coordinate all His vehicles; then will the force flow through all the centers unimpeded; and then will the glory shine out, and each cell in every body - logoic, planetary, deva and human, blaze forth with perfected glory, vibrate with adjusted accuracy, and a major cosmic initiation be taken." TCF 360. AAB.



                                >
                                > If Bailey is right for you - then by all means stick with Bailey. I think you should!
                                >
                                > As for the SD being incomplete - well of course it is.


                                > -------------
                                > >2a. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                > Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                                > Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:28 pm ((PST))
                                >
                                > --- 7
                                > >NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                > - By Basil Crump
                                > >Introductory Postulates
                                > >These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                                >
                                > >The reader is constantly referred
                                > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                > >is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                > >It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                >
                                > >JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                                >
                                > >This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                                >
                                > >Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                                >
                                > >HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                                >
                                > >"Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                                >
                                > >"It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                                >
                                > >"It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                                >
                                > >"One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                >
                                > >"But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                                >
                                > >"The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                                >
                                > >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                > July, 1881, p. 218.
                                >
                                > >JPC.
                                > ----------------------------
                                > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                > > >
                                > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > - jake j.



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