Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???

Expand Messages
  • Govert Schuller
    Dear Daniel, I think it s quite unreasonable to expect Meade to bring the investigation of the cup and saucer phenomenon to your level 4 of probability of
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 24, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Daniel,



      I think it's quite unreasonable to expect Meade to bring the investigation
      of the 'cup and saucer phenomenon' to your level 4 of 'probability' of
      either confirmation or refutation, while the one and only person who could
      have brought the phenomenon to a solid step 4 refused when challenged to do
      so and threw a tantrum, which, procedure-wise, cannot be found in any of
      your steps of discovery.



      Later, one of the participants of the picnic and, Major Philip Henderson,
      wrote to the Times of India:




      "On the day in question, I declared the saucer to be an incomplete and
      unsatisfactory manifestation, as not fulfilling proper test conditions. My
      reasonable doubt was construed as a personal insult, and I soon discovered
      that a sceptical frame of mind in the inquirer is not favourable to the
      manifestations of the marvels of Theosophy." (Mr. Hodgson's Report, p. 266)



      Meade's step-2 hypothesizing that trickery was a very good, reasonable,
      naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon based on her step-1 gathering of
      observational statements is imo quite acceptable given the fact that she is
      in no position (like any of us) to gather step-3 experimental data in this
      particular case, let alone get to a step-4 probable theory.



      Maybe you meant that Meade is not properly processing the level-1 statements
      by the picnic participants and therefore doesn't get her step-2 hypothesis
      right. I'm open for that.



      In short, you are chiding Meade for not producing something which, even
      according to your own discovery protocol, is procedure-wise impossible,
      while HPB, who was allegedly capable of producing something satisfactory
      according to evidentiary protocol, refused to do so.





      From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Daniel
      Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:42 AM
      To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???





      BELOW is what I wrote on Theos-Talk years ago using an example from Marion
      Meade's book on HPB to show how Ms. Meade "uses" (misuses) the 4 step method
      I recently wrote to Govert about here at Theos-Talk.
      >
      > Brigitte Muehlegger now tells us to look for an
      > explanation about the teacup and saucer incident in
      > Marion Meade's MADAME BLAVATSKY, p.223-224.
      >
      > Brigitte, do you actually agree with Meade's
      > "explanation"?
      >
      > Is Meade's explanation just one of many "possible"
      > explanations or is Meade's explanation the most
      > "probable" explanation in light of all the known
      > evidence? In other words, are we at step 2 or at step
      > 4 with Meade's "explanation"?
      >
      > Anyway, as Brigitte ponders the above, I give Meade's
      > explanation:
      >
      > "At the time and even later Alfred could find no
      > loopholes in what came to be known as 'the cup and
      > saucer incident.' He based his conviction mainly on
      > the fact that Madame Blavatsky could not have known in
      > advance that there would be seven guests in the party,
      > as the judge had arrived only at the last minute.
      > OBVIOUSLY she did know, and so did Patience Sinnett
      > because Olcott overheard her telling the butler: 'It
      > was very stupid of you not to put in another cup and
      > saucer when you knew that the other gentleman would
      > have to have tea.' It seems reasonable TO ASSUME that
      > H.P.B. had instructed Babula to bury the cup and
      > saucer, then led the picnickers to the spot herself.
      > In fact, this notion had already occurred to the judge
      > and police chief who later in the afternoon examined
      > the site. Their final conclusion was that it was
      > theoretically POSSIBLE for someone to have tunneled in
      > from below and thrust the cup and saucer up into the
      > place where they were discovered. Apparently Babula
      > later confided to Emma Coulomb that this was exactly
      > what he had done. In the experts' opinion, the
      > phenomenon could not be accepted as scientifically
      > perfect and, somewhat indelicately, they
      > challenged her to repeat it under test conditions.
      > Helena, who had worked hard to stage the tableau,
      > could not keep herself from exploding. Henry vividly
      > remembered that 'she seemed to take leave of her
      > senses and poured out upon the two unfortunate
      > skeptics the thunder of her wrath. And so our pleasant
      > party ended in an angry tempest.' " Caps added
      >
      > Well, Steve, what do you think of Meade's
      > "explanation"?
      >
      > Now a few more questions to ponder:
      >
      > Is Meade actually explaining the incident [at step 4]
      > or is Meade simply speculating [at step 2]? See 4 Step
      > Process at:
      > http://blavatskyarchives.com/history3.htm
      >
      > Is Meade simply using the "unpacking" method I've
      > described before?
      > [See
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4421
      > ]
      > As Ray Hyman wrote: "it is ALWAYS possible to
      > 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter
      > how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." Caps added.
      > This is a step 2 technique.
      >
      > Is Meade simply using the "possibility/plausibility"
      > method of argument? See
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4423
      > for an example.
      >
      > Has Meade followed the Barzun and Graffe dictum?
      >
      > "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. .
      > . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's
      > conjecture it cannot be accepted as truth if he has
      > only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it.
      > Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on
      > probability. Probability means the balance of chances
      > that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE, the event it
      > records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases,
      > that a supposed event did not in fact take place."
      > Caps added.
      >
      > Daniel H. Caldwell
      > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
      > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
      > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things
      > at their right value; and unless a judge compares
      > notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a
      > correct decision."
      > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
      > http://mail.yahoo.com/
      >



      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Augoeides-222@comcast.net
      Daniel and all,  Here are more information on Dorgiev who is alledged to have meet Madame Blavatsky. One  interesting naunce about him is that he was
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 25, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Daniel and all,



         Here are more information on Dorgiev who is alledged to have meet Madame Blavatsky. One  interesting naunce about him is that he was involved in connexions between the British and the Russian Government's at a time that was critical to Tibet's future and this fact was widely known to all partys back then. It makes me wonder if this chance meeting was the establishing factor that contributes to the false rumours that Madame Blavatsky was a "Russian Spy" acting against the interests of certain others like England and China. In all I recall reading about that controversy  where she is accused or alledged to be spying no where was there mention of her contact with, or interaction with Agvan Dorgiev who actually was privy to the Highest "sources" of the Russian throne as was later the Buryyat Shaman Pyotr  Badmaev who was close to Czar Nicolas II. Both of these unique persons founded landmark establishments at the very heart of Russian cosmopolitan life at St. Petersberg and Moscow.



        Agvan Dorgiev -Wikipedia



        >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agvan_Dorzhiev<<<



        Agvan Dorgiev  and the Temple he establiashed



        >>>http://www.marhotin.ru/marhotin-datsan-eng/<<<



        A gvan Dorgiev You Tube Video (in Russian but many very nice archive black and white  histo ric shots



        >>>http://wn.com/Agvan_Dorjiev<<<



        Lobsang Paldan Yeshe 6th Panchen (Tashi) Lama



        >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Palden_Yeshe<<<



        Special Places for the Kalachakra and Shambhalla



        >>>http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_places.html<<<



        Explore the Kalachakra Mandala (very excellent informative well done and executed graphical explanations)



        >>>http://kalachakranet.org/mandala_kalachakra.html<<<



        Pyotr Badmaev S haman Physician to Czar Nicolas II



        >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html<<<



        Here is a nice Map to go with the above Badmaev article



        >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/russia_japan_tibet_shambhala_map.gif<<<



        The Trials of Dandaron --- Buryat Buddhists



        >>>http://www.tricycle.com/feature/the-trials-dandaron-buddhist-perseverance-russia<<<







        Maybe some inspired researcher in Russia wil someday locate Dorgiev's letters or writtings and translate them to english and publish them, who knows but that there might be letters between Dorgiev and madame Blavatsky  



        John



















        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        .

        From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:06:53 PM
        Subject: RE: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???

         




        Dear Daniel,

        I think it's quite unreasonable to expect Meade to bring the investigation
        of the 'cup and saucer phenomenon' to your level 4 of 'probability' of
        either confirmation or refutation, while the one and only person who could
        have brought the phenomenon to a solid step 4 refused when challenged to do
        so and threw a tantrum, which, procedure-wise, cannot be found in any of
        your steps of discovery.

        Later, one of the participants of the picnic and, Major Philip Henderson,
        wrote to the Times of India:

        "On the day in question, I declared the saucer to be an incomplete and
        unsatisfactory manifestation, as not fulfilling proper test conditions. My
        reasonable doubt was construed as a personal insult, and I soon discovered
        that a sceptical frame of mind in the inquirer is not favourable to the
        manifestations of the marvels of Theosophy." (Mr. Hodgson's Report, p. 266)

        Meade's step-2 hypothesizing that trickery was a very good, reasonable,
        naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon based on her step-1 gathering of
        observational statements is imo quite acceptable given the fact that she is
        in no position (like any of us) to gather step-3 experimental data in this
        particular case, let alone get to a step-4 probable theory.

        Maybe you meant that Meade is not properly processing the level-1 statements
        by the picnic participants and therefore doesn't get her step-2 hypothesis
        right. I'm open for that.

        In short, you are chiding Meade for not producing something which, even
        according to your own discovery protocol, is procedure-wise impossible,
        while HPB, who was allegedly capable of producing something satisfactory
        according to evidentiary protocol, refused to do so.

        From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com ] On
        Behalf Of Daniel
        Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:42 AM
        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???

        BELOW is what I wrote on Theos-Talk years ago using an example from Marion
        Meade's book on HPB to show how Ms. Meade "uses" (misuses) the 4 step method
        I recently wrote to Govert about here at Theos-Talk.
        >
        > Brigitte Muehlegger now tells us to look for an
        > explanation about the teacup and saucer incident in
        > Marion Meade's MADAME BLAVATSKY, p.223-224.
        >
        > Brigitte, do you actually agree with Meade's
        > "explanation"?
        >
        > Is Meade's explanation just one of many "possible"
        > explanations or is Meade's explanation the most
        > "probable" explanation in light of all the known
        > evidence? In other words, are we at step 2 or at step
        > 4 with Meade's "explanation"?
        >
        > Anyway, as Brigitte ponders the above, I give Meade's
        > explanation:
        >
        > "At the time and even later Alfred could find no
        > loopholes in what came to be known as 'the cup and
        > saucer incident.' He based his conviction mainly on
        > the fact that Madame Blavatsky could not have known in
        > advance that there would be seven guests in the party,
        > as the judge had arrived only at the last minute.
        > OBVIOUSLY she did know, and so did Patience Sinnett
        > because Olcott overheard her telling the butler: 'It
        > was very stupid of you not to put in another cup and
        > saucer when you knew that the other gentleman would
        > have to have tea.' It seems reasonable TO ASSUME that
        > H.P.B. had instructed Babula to bury the cup and
        > saucer, then led the picnickers to the spot herself.
        > In fact, this notion had already occurred to the judge
        > and police chief who later in the afternoon examined
        > the site. Their final conclusion was that it was
        > theoretically POSSIBLE for someone to have tunneled in
        > from below and thrust the cup and saucer up into the
        > place where they were discovered. Apparently Babula
        > later confided to Emma Coulomb that this was exactly
        > what he had done. In the experts' opinion, the
        > phenomenon could not be accepted as scientifically
        > perfect and, somewhat indelicately, they
        > challenged her to repeat it under test conditions.
        > Helena, who had worked hard to stage the tableau,
        > could not keep herself from exploding. Henry vividly
        > remembered that 'she seemed to take leave of her
        > senses and poured out upon the two unfortunate
        > skeptics the thunder of her wrath. And so our pleasant
        > party ended in an angry tempest.' " Caps added
        >
        > Well, Steve, what do you think of Meade's
        > "explanation"?
        >
        > Now a few more questions to ponder:
        >
        > Is Meade actually explaining the incident [at step 4]
        > or is Meade simply speculating [at step 2]? See 4 Step
        > Process at:
        > http://blavatskyarchives.com/history3.htm
        >
        > Is Meade simply using the "unpacking" method I've
        > described before?
        > [See
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4421
        > ]
        > As Ray Hyman wrote: "it is ALWAYS possible to
        > 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter
        > how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." Caps added.
        > This is a step 2 technique.
        >
        > Is Meade simply using the "possibility/plausibility"
        > method of argument? See
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4423
        > for an example.
        >
        > Has Meade followed the Barzun and Graffe dictum?
        >
        > "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. .
        > . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's
        > conjecture it cannot be accepted as truth if he has
        > only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it.
        > Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on
        > probability. Probability means the balance of chances
        > that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE, the event it
        > records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases,
        > that a supposed event did not in fact take place."
        > Caps added.
        >
        > Daniel H. Caldwell
        > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
        > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
        > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things
        > at their right value; and unless a judge compares
        > notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a
        > correct decision."
        > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
        > http://mail.yahoo.com/
        >

        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M. Sufilight
        Interesting.... A few additional views might be helpful. I caught this...about Russia versus Dorgiev... Mahatma Letter 4 - 1880: More and more a dead
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 25, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Interesting....

          A few additional views might be helpful.

          I caught this...about Russia versus Dorgiev...

          Mahatma Letter 4 - 1880:
          "More and more a dead formalism is gaining ground, and I am truly happy to find so unexpected an ally in a quarter where, hitherto there have not been too many — among the highly educated classes of English Society. A crisis, in a certain sense, is upon us now, and must be met. I might say two crises — one, the Society's, the other for Tibet. For, I may tell you in confidence, that Russia is gradually massing her forces for a future invasion of that country under the pretext of a Chinese War. If she does not succeed it will be due to us; and herein, at least we will deserve your gratitude. You see then, that we have weightier matters than small societies to think about; yet, the T.S. must not be neglected. The affair has taken an impulse, which, if not well guided, might beget very evil issues. Recall to mind the avalanches of your admired Alps, that you have often thought about, and remember that at first their mass is small and their momentum little. A trite comparison you may say, but I cannot think of a better illustration, when viewing the gradual aggregation of trifling events, growing into a menacing destiny for the Theos. Soc. It came quite forcibly upon me the other day as I was coming down the defiles of Kouenlun — Karakorum you call them — and saw an avalanche tumble. I had gone personally to our chief to submit Mr. Hume's important offer, and was crossing over to Lhadak on my way home. What other speculations might have followed I cannot say. But just as I was taking advantage of the awful stillness which usually follows such cataclysm, to get a clearer view of the present situation and the disposition of the "mystics" at Simla, I was rudely recalled to my senses. A familiar voice, as shrill as the one attributed to Saraswati's peacock — which, if we may credit tradition, frightened off the King of the Nagas — shouted along the currents "Olcott has raised the very devil again! . . . The Englishmen are going crazy. . . . Koot Hoomi, come quicker and help me!" — and in her excitement forgot she was speaking English. I must say, that the "Old Lady's" telegrams do strike one like stones from a catapult! "
          http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm

          Only 10-20 years later there was still a Russian plot brewing....

          Alexander Berzin's website says ---- :
          "For example, in 1893, the Buryat Mongol physician Piotr Badmaev submitted a plan to Czar Alexander III for bringing parts of the Qing Empire under Russian sway, including Outer and Inner Mongolia and Tibet. He proposed extending the Trans-Siberian Railway from the Buryat homeland at Lake Baikal through Outer and Inner Mongolia to Gansu, China, next to the Tibetan border. When completed, he would organize, with Buryat help, an uprising in Tibet that would allow Russia to annex the country. Badmaev also proposed establishing a Russian trading company in Asia. Count Sergei Yulgevich Witte, Russian Finance Minister from 1882 to 1903, supported Badmaev’s two plans, but Czar Alexander accepted neither of them."
          .......
          "Dorjiev and Czar Nicholas II
          The Buryat Mongol monk Agvan Dorjiev (1854-1938) studied in Lhasa Tibet from 1880 and eventually became one of the Master Debate Partners (Assistant Tutors) of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. He also became the Dalai Lama’s most trusted political advisor.
          The Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1890 had established Sikkim as a British protectorate. The Tibetans did not acknowledge the convention, and were uncomfortable with both British and Chinese designs on their country. Thus, in 1899, Dorjiev visited Russia to see if he could secure help to counter these threats. Dorjiev was a friend of Badmaev and hoped that Russia’s expansionist policy in Northeast Asia at the expense of China would extend to the Himalayan region. Count Witte received him on this and his next several visits. On behalf of the Buryat and Kalmyk Mongols living in St. Petersburg, Dorjiev also petitioned permission for building a Kalachakra temple there. Although the Russian authorities were not interested in either proposal, Dorjiev sent a letter to the Dalai Lama reporting that the prospects for assistance looked hopeful.

          At first, the Dalai Lama and his ministers were hesitant but, on his return to Lhasa, Dorjiev convinced the Dalai Lama to turn to Russia for protection. He argued that Russia was the Northern Kingdom of Shambhala, the legendary land that safeguarded the Kalachakra teachings, and that Czar Nicholas II was the incarnation of Tsongkhapa, the founder of the Gelug tradition. As evidence, he pointed to the Czar’s protection of the Gelug tradition among the Buryats, Kalmyks, Tuvinian Turks in the Russian Empire. Swayed by his argument, the Dalai Lama dispatched him back to Russia in 1900."
          http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html?query=Panchen+Lama

          The Panchen Lama is the spiritual head of the Gelugpa Buddhists. The Dalai Lama is merely their political and administrative head. The Dalai Lama institution is a - later invention - and there was originally not a political institution in the Gelugpa Tradition. The Occultists and Esotericist do most often not meddle directly in politics - but may in times of crisis intervene and seek to propose helpful activities. We make no unwilling slaves...and seek to avoid Psychological Conditioning or Coerceing the individual by political legislations on a piece of paper (a man made Law of Karma - called altruism) - and by the use of weapons, police, wallet laywers, and judges. - You may correct me if I am wrong.

          ADEPTS AND POLITICS (see primarily Editors Note)
          "Neither the Tibetan nor the modern Hindu Mahatmas for the matter of that, ever meddle with politics, though they may bring their influence to bear upon more than one momentous question in the history of a nation—their mother country especially. "
          .......
          "If any Adepts have influenced Washington or brought about the great American Revolution, it was not the “Tibetan Mahatmas” at any rate; for these have never shown much sympathy with the Pelings of whatever Western race, except as forming a part of Humanity in general."
          http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v6/y1883_167.htm




          M. Sufilight

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Augoeides-222@...
          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 4:54 PM
          Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev





          Daniel and all,

          Here are more information on Dorgiev who is alledged to have meet Madame Blavatsky. One interesting naunce about him is that he was involved in connexions between the British and the Russian Government's at a time that was critical to Tibet's future and this fact was widely known to all partys back then. It makes me wonder if this chance meeting was the establishing factor that contributes to the false rumours that Madame Blavatsky was a "Russian Spy" acting against the interests of certain others like England and China. In all I recall reading about that controversy where she is accused or alledged to be spying no where was there mention of her contact with, or interaction with Agvan Dorgiev who actually was privy to the Highest "sources" of the Russian throne as was later the Buryyat Shaman Pyotr Badmaev who was close to Czar Nicolas II. Both of these unique persons founded landmark establishments at the very heart of Russian cosmopolitan life at St. Petersberg and Moscow.

          Agvan Dorgiev -Wikipedia

          >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agvan_Dorzhiev<<<

          Agvan Dorgiev and the Temple he establiashed

          >>>http://www.marhotin.ru/marhotin-datsan-eng/<<<

          A gvan Dorgiev You Tube Video (in Russian but many very nice archive black and white histo ric shots

          >>>http://wn.com/Agvan_Dorjiev<<<

          Lobsang Paldan Yeshe 6th Panchen (Tashi) Lama

          >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Palden_Yeshe<<<

          Special Places for the Kalachakra and Shambhalla

          >>>http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_places.html<<<

          Explore the Kalachakra Mandala (very excellent informative well done and executed graphical explanations)

          >>>http://kalachakranet.org/mandala_kalachakra.html<<<

          Pyotr Badmaev S haman Physician to Czar Nicolas II

          >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html<<<

          Here is a nice Map to go with the above Badmaev article

          >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/russia_japan_tibet_shambhala_map.gif<<<

          The Trials of Dandaron --- Buryat Buddhists

          >>>http://www.tricycle.com/feature/the-trials-dandaron-buddhist-perseverance-russia<<<

          Maybe some inspired researcher in Russia wil someday locate Dorgiev's letters or writtings and translate them to english and publish them, who knows but that there might be letters between Dorgiev and madame Blavatsky

          John

          ----------------------------------------------------------

          .

          From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:06:53 PM
          Subject: RE: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???



          Dear Daniel,

          I think it's quite unreasonable to expect Meade to bring the investigation
          of the 'cup and saucer phenomenon' to your level 4 of 'probability' of
          either confirmation or refutation, while the one and only person who could
          have brought the phenomenon to a solid step 4 refused when challenged to do
          so and threw a tantrum, which, procedure-wise, cannot be found in any of
          your steps of discovery.

          Later, one of the participants of the picnic and, Major Philip Henderson,
          wrote to the Times of India:

          "On the day in question, I declared the saucer to be an incomplete and
          unsatisfactory manifestation, as not fulfilling proper test conditions. My
          reasonable doubt was construed as a personal insult, and I soon discovered
          that a sceptical frame of mind in the inquirer is not favourable to the
          manifestations of the marvels of Theosophy." (Mr. Hodgson's Report, p. 266)

          Meade's step-2 hypothesizing that trickery was a very good, reasonable,
          naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon based on her step-1 gathering of
          observational statements is imo quite acceptable given the fact that she is
          in no position (like any of us) to gather step-3 experimental data in this
          particular case, let alone get to a step-4 probable theory.

          Maybe you meant that Meade is not properly processing the level-1 statements
          by the picnic participants and therefore doesn't get her step-2 hypothesis
          right. I'm open for that.

          In short, you are chiding Meade for not producing something which, even
          according to your own discovery protocol, is procedure-wise impossible,
          while HPB, who was allegedly capable of producing something satisfactory
          according to evidentiary protocol, refused to do so.

          From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com ] On
          Behalf Of Daniel
          Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:42 AM
          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???

          BELOW is what I wrote on Theos-Talk years ago using an example from Marion
          Meade's book on HPB to show how Ms. Meade "uses" (misuses) the 4 step method
          I recently wrote to Govert about here at Theos-Talk.
          >
          > Brigitte Muehlegger now tells us to look for an
          > explanation about the teacup and saucer incident in
          > Marion Meade's MADAME BLAVATSKY, p.223-224.
          >
          > Brigitte, do you actually agree with Meade's
          > "explanation"?
          >
          > Is Meade's explanation just one of many "possible"
          > explanations or is Meade's explanation the most
          > "probable" explanation in light of all the known
          > evidence? In other words, are we at step 2 or at step
          > 4 with Meade's "explanation"?
          >
          > Anyway, as Brigitte ponders the above, I give Meade's
          > explanation:
          >
          > "At the time and even later Alfred could find no
          > loopholes in what came to be known as 'the cup and
          > saucer incident.' He based his conviction mainly on
          > the fact that Madame Blavatsky could not have known in
          > advance that there would be seven guests in the party,
          > as the judge had arrived only at the last minute.
          > OBVIOUSLY she did know, and so did Patience Sinnett
          > because Olcott overheard her telling the butler: 'It
          > was very stupid of you not to put in another cup and
          > saucer when you knew that the other gentleman would
          > have to have tea.' It seems reasonable TO ASSUME that
          > H.P.B. had instructed Babula to bury the cup and
          > saucer, then led the picnickers to the spot herself.
          > In fact, this notion had already occurred to the judge
          > and police chief who later in the afternoon examined
          > the site. Their final conclusion was that it was
          > theoretically POSSIBLE for someone to have tunneled in
          > from below and thrust the cup and saucer up into the
          > place where they were discovered. Apparently Babula
          > later confided to Emma Coulomb that this was exactly
          > what he had done. In the experts' opinion, the
          > phenomenon could not be accepted as scientifically
          > perfect and, somewhat indelicately, they
          > challenged her to repeat it under test conditions.
          > Helena, who had worked hard to stage the tableau,
          > could not keep herself from exploding. Henry vividly
          > remembered that 'she seemed to take leave of her
          > senses and poured out upon the two unfortunate
          > skeptics the thunder of her wrath. And so our pleasant
          > party ended in an angry tempest.' " Caps added
          >
          > Well, Steve, what do you think of Meade's
          > "explanation"?
          >
          > Now a few more questions to ponder:
          >
          > Is Meade actually explaining the incident [at step 4]
          > or is Meade simply speculating [at step 2]? See 4 Step
          > Process at:
          > http://blavatskyarchives.com/history3.htm
          >
          > Is Meade simply using the "unpacking" method I've
          > described before?
          > [See
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4421
          > ]
          > As Ray Hyman wrote: "it is ALWAYS possible to
          > 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter
          > how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." Caps added.
          > This is a step 2 technique.
          >
          > Is Meade simply using the "possibility/plausibility"
          > method of argument? See
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4423
          > for an example.
          >
          > Has Meade followed the Barzun and Graffe dictum?
          >
          > "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. .
          > . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's
          > conjecture it cannot be accepted as truth if he has
          > only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it.
          > Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on
          > probability. Probability means the balance of chances
          > that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE, the event it
          > records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases,
          > that a supposed event did not in fact take place."
          > Caps added.
          >
          > Daniel H. Caldwell
          > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
          > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
          > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things
          > at their right value; and unless a judge compares
          > notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a
          > correct decision."
          > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
          > http://mail.yahoo.com/
          >

          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • proto37
          Reminds me of the political high Lama in Talbot Mundy s 1940 novel Old Ugly Face. - jake j.
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 25, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            'Reminds me of the political high Lama in Talbot Mundy's 1940 novel "Old Ugly Face."
            - jake j.

            --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Augoeides-222@... wrote:
            >
            > Daniel and all,
            >  Here are more information on Dorgiev who is alledged to have meet Madame Blavatsky. One  interesting naunce about him is that he was involved in connexions between the British and the Russian Government's at a time that was critical to Tibet's future and this fact was widely known to all partys back then. It makes me wonder if this chance meeting was the establishing factor that contributes to the false rumours that Madame Blavatsky was a "Russian Spy" acting against the interests of certain others like England and China. In all I recall reading about that controversy  where she is accused or alledged to be spying no where was there mention of her contact with, or interaction with Agvan Dorgiev who actually was privy to the Highest "sources" of the Russian throne as was later the Buryyat Shaman Pyotr  Badmaev who was close to Czar Nicolas II. Both of these unique persons founded landmark establishments at the very heart of Russian cosmopolitan life at St. Petersberg and Moscow.
            > >
            >
            > Agvan Dorgiev -Wikipedia
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agvan_Dorzhiev<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Agvan Dorgiev  and the Temple he establiashed
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://www.marhotin.ru/marhotin-datsan-eng/<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > A gvan Dorgiev You Tube Video (in Russian but many very nice archive black and white  histo ric shots
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://wn.com/Agvan_Dorjiev<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Lobsang Paldan Yeshe 6th Panchen (Tashi) Lama
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Palden_Yeshe<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Special Places for the Kalachakra and Shambhalla
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_places.html<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Explore the Kalachakra Mandala (very excellent informative well done and executed graphical explanations)
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://kalachakranet.org/mandala_kalachakra.html<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Pyotr Badmaev S haman Physician to Czar Nicolas II
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > Here is a nice Map to go with the above Badmaev article
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/russia_japan_tibet_shambhala_map.gif<<<
            >
            >
            >
            > The Trials of Dandaron --- Buryat Buddhists
            >
            >
            >
            > >>>http://www.tricycle.com/feature/the-trials-dandaron-buddhist-perseverance-russia<<<
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Maybe some inspired researcher in Russia wil someday locate Dorgiev's letters or writtings and translate them to english and publish them, who knows but that there might be letters between Dorgiev and madame Blavatsky  
            >
            >
            >
            > John
            >
            >
            >
          • Jeremy Condick
            One of course recalls let America be free as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 25, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.



              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
              > From: global-theosophy@...
              > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:08:32 +0100
              > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
              >
              >
              > Interesting....
              >
              > A few additional views might be helpful.
              >
              > I caught this...about Russia versus Dorgiev...
              >
              > Mahatma Letter 4 - 1880:
              > "More and more a dead formalism is gaining ground, and I am truly happy to find so unexpected an ally in a quarter where, hitherto there have not been too many � among the highly educated classes of English Society. A crisis, in a certain sense, is upon us now, and must be met. I might say two crises � one, the Society's, the other for Tibet. For, I may tell you in confidence, that Russia is gradually massing her forces for a future invasion of that country under the pretext of a Chinese War. If she does not succeed it will be due to us; and herein, at least we will deserve your gratitude. You see then, that we have weightier matters than small societies to think about; yet, the T.S. must not be neglected. The affair has taken an impulse, which, if not well guided, might beget very evil issues. Recall to mind the avalanches of your admired Alps, that you have often thought about, and remember that at first their mass is small and their momentum little. A trite comparison you may say, but I cannot think of a better illustration, when viewing the gradual aggregation of trifling events, growing into a menacing destiny for the Theos. Soc. It came quite forcibly upon me the other day as I was coming down the defiles of Kouenlun � Karakorum you call them � and saw an avalanche tumble. I had gone personally to our chief to submit Mr. Hume's important offer, and was crossing over to Lhadak on my way home. What other speculations might have followed I cannot say. But just as I was taking advantage of the awful stillness which usually follows such cataclysm, to get a clearer view of the present situation and the disposition of the "mystics" at Simla, I was rudely recalled to my senses. A familiar voice, as shrill as the one attributed to Saraswati's peacock � which, if we may credit tradition, frightened off the King of the Nagas � shouted along the currents "Olcott has raised the very devil again! . . . The Englishmen are going crazy. . . . Koot Hoomi, come quicker and help me!" � and in her excitement forgot she was speaking English. I must say, that the "Old Lady's" telegrams do strike one like stones from a catapult! "
              > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm
              >
              > Only 10-20 years later there was still a Russian plot brewing....
              >
              > Alexander Berzin's website says ---- :
              > "For example, in 1893, the Buryat Mongol physician Piotr Badmaev submitted a plan to Czar Alexander III for bringing parts of the Qing Empire under Russian sway, including Outer and Inner Mongolia and Tibet. He proposed extending the Trans-Siberian Railway from the Buryat homeland at Lake Baikal through Outer and Inner Mongolia to Gansu, China, next to the Tibetan border. When completed, he would organize, with Buryat help, an uprising in Tibet that would allow Russia to annex the country. Badmaev also proposed establishing a Russian trading company in Asia. Count Sergei Yulgevich Witte, Russian Finance Minister from 1882 to 1903, supported Badmaev�s two plans, but Czar Alexander accepted neither of them."
              > .......
              > "Dorjiev and Czar Nicholas II
              > The Buryat Mongol monk Agvan Dorjiev (1854-1938) studied in Lhasa Tibet from 1880 and eventually became one of the Master Debate Partners (Assistant Tutors) of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. He also became the Dalai Lama�s most trusted political advisor.
              > The Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1890 had established Sikkim as a British protectorate. The Tibetans did not acknowledge the convention, and were uncomfortable with both British and Chinese designs on their country. Thus, in 1899, Dorjiev visited Russia to see if he could secure help to counter these threats. Dorjiev was a friend of Badmaev and hoped that Russia�s expansionist policy in Northeast Asia at the expense of China would extend to the Himalayan region. Count Witte received him on this and his next several visits. On behalf of the Buryat and Kalmyk Mongols living in St. Petersburg, Dorjiev also petitioned permission for building a Kalachakra temple there. Although the Russian authorities were not interested in either proposal, Dorjiev sent a letter to the Dalai Lama reporting that the prospects for assistance looked hopeful.
              >
              > At first, the Dalai Lama and his ministers were hesitant but, on his return to Lhasa, Dorjiev convinced the Dalai Lama to turn to Russia for protection. He argued that Russia was the Northern Kingdom of Shambhala, the legendary land that safeguarded the Kalachakra teachings, and that Czar Nicholas II was the incarnation of Tsongkhapa, the founder of the Gelug tradition. As evidence, he pointed to the Czar�s protection of the Gelug tradition among the Buryats, Kalmyks, Tuvinian Turks in the Russian Empire. Swayed by his argument, the Dalai Lama dispatched him back to Russia in 1900."
              > http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html?query=Panchen+Lama
              >
              > The Panchen Lama is the spiritual head of the Gelugpa Buddhists. The Dalai Lama is merely their political and administrative head. The Dalai Lama institution is a - later invention - and there was originally not a political institution in the Gelugpa Tradition. The Occultists and Esotericist do most often not meddle directly in politics - but may in times of crisis intervene and seek to propose helpful activities. We make no unwilling slaves...and seek to avoid Psychological Conditioning or Coerceing the individual by political legislations on a piece of paper (a man made Law of Karma - called altruism) - and by the use of weapons, police, wallet laywers, and judges. - You may correct me if I am wrong.
              >
              > ADEPTS AND POLITICS (see primarily Editors Note)
              > "Neither the Tibetan nor the modern Hindu Mahatmas for the matter of that, ever meddle with politics, though they may bring their influence to bear upon more than one momentous question in the history of a nation�their mother country especially. "
              > .......
              > "If any Adepts have influenced Washington or brought about the great American Revolution, it was not the �Tibetan Mahatmas� at any rate; for these have never shown much sympathy with the Pelings of whatever Western race, except as forming a part of Humanity in general."
              > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v6/y1883_167.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > M. Sufilight


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • M. Sufilight
              A few views of mine... Yes. But, I suggest, let us not make poems on such things, when only know the half of the story and the activities of the affairs are
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 25, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                A few views of mine...

                Yes.
                But, I suggest, let us not make poems on such things, when only know the
                half of the story and the activities of the affairs are known.
                What people did in the past of possible mistakes before year 1875 I am not
                concerned with when speaking about Balvatsky and her role in the
                Theosophical Society. (See also
                http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924029172983#page/n161/mode/2up - p.
                147-149)
                The Masters ever seek to operate within the universal Law of Karma - they do
                always seek to help avoid anyone to foolishly seek to bypass the Law of
                Karma by writing their own human made (and most often selfish) version of it
                on a piece of paper - by the use of so-called Wiise political legislation -
                so to effectively psychologically condition humanity ---- and then go and
                call that non-sectarian altruism. Altruism - non-conditioned is what is
                sought promoted - not the opposite. They seek not like others do a constant
                Westernized political influence - under the disguise of altruism.

                ______________
                The Masters employ agents...

                In the famous Shannon letter to H. S. Olcott from Master KH - the words
                were:
                "You will be told that the chief originator of most, if not of all these
                disturbances is H.P.B. This is not so; though her presence in England has,
                of course, a share in them. But the largest share rests with others, whose
                serene unconsciousness of their own defects is very marked, and much to be
                blamed. One of the most valuable effects of Upasika’s mission is that it
                drives men to self-study, and destroys in them blind servility for persons.
                Observe your own case for example. But your revolt, good friend, against her
                ‘infallibility’—as you once thought it—has gone too far, and you have been
                unjust to her, for which I am sorry to say you will have to suffer hereafter
                along with others. Just now, on deck, your thoughts about her were dark and
                sinful, and so I find the moment a fitting one to put you on your guard. . .
                .†
                “Try to remove such misconceptions as you will find, by kind persuasion and
                an appeal to the feelings of loyalty to the cause of truth, if not to us.
                Make all these men feel that we have no favourites, nor affections for
                persons, but only for their good acts and humanity as a whole. But we employ
                agents—the best available. Of these, for the last thirty years, the chief
                has been the personality known as H.P.B. to the world (but otherwise to us).
                Imperfect and very ‘troublesome,’ no doubt, she proves to some;
                nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years
                to come, and your Theosophists should be made to understand it *"
                ......
                "“I have also noted your thoughts about the ‘Secret Doctrine.’ Be assured
                that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works we have
                given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion corrected and
                explained by her from the works of other theosophists, was corrected by me,
                or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor—an
                epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and
                instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . . . †"
                .......
                "“. . . [This letter] . . . .is merely given you as a warning and a guide;
                to others, as a warning only; for you may use it discreetly, if needs be. .
                . .Prepare, however, to have the authenticity of the present denied in
                certain quarters.*
                (Signed) K. H.”
                [Extracts correctly copied.—H. S. OLCOTT.]"
                http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v10/y1888_078.htm

                (That is "no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to
                come"......And also --- therefore the Secret Doctrine was not a book to last
                only 37 years as some Seekers after Truth - would like it to be...The book
                was written by Blavatsky while she learned to read the Akasa with numerous
                citations in it - and - with the help of the 2 Ray Master - Master KH and
                also Morya. Other Mahatma Letters exists on this. - Strange as it may sound
                to some, it is not so to others...Smile. And it was no D.K. who wrote large
                parts of it as claimed by some. There are sufficient documentation going
                against this view. --- The book seem outdated no doubt for those who prefer
                systematic intellecutal Westernized books - and who dislike books that
                requires more than mere entertainment - and - a books that seek to awaken
                the intutition in the invidual (Atma-Vidya) by the use of the 7 Keys to the
                Mystery language.)


                But all the above are just my views. I do hope they are helpful to some
                readers...



                M. Sufilight


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:41 PM
                Subject: RE: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev



                One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St
                Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of
                HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover,
                of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.



                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                > From: global-theosophy@...
                > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:08:32 +0100
                > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                >
                >
                > Interesting....
                >
                > A few additional views might be helpful.
                >
                > I caught this...about Russia versus Dorgiev...
                >
                > Mahatma Letter 4 - 1880:
                > "More and more a dead formalism is gaining ground, and I am truly happy to
                > find so unexpected an ally in a quarter where, hitherto there have not
                > been too many — among the highly educated classes of English Society. A
                > crisis, in a certain sense, is upon us now, and must be met. I might say
                > two crises — one, the Society's, the other for Tibet. For, I may tell you
                > in confidence, that Russia is gradually massing her forces for a future
                > invasion of that country under the pretext of a Chinese War. If she does
                > not succeed it will be due to us; and herein, at least we will deserve
                > your gratitude. You see then, that we have weightier matters than small
                > societies to think about; yet, the T.S. must not be neglected. The affair
                > has taken an impulse, which, if not well guided, might beget very evil
                > issues. Recall to mind the avalanches of your admired Alps, that you have
                > often thought about, and remember that at first their mass is small and
                > their momentum little. A trite comparison you may say, but I cannot think
                > of a better illustration, when viewing the gradual aggregation of trifling
                > events, growing into a menacing destiny for the Theos. Soc. It came quite
                > forcibly upon me the other day as I was coming down the defiles of
                > Kouenlun — Karakorum you call them — and saw an avalanche tumble. I had
                > gone personally to our chief to submit Mr. Hume's important offer, and was
                > crossing over to Lhadak on my way home. What other speculations might have
                > followed I cannot say. But just as I was taking advantage of the awful
                > stillness which usually follows such cataclysm, to get a clearer view of
                > the present situation and the disposition of the "mystics" at Simla, I was
                > rudely recalled to my senses. A familiar voice, as shrill as the one
                > attributed to Saraswati's peacock — which, if we may credit tradition,
                > frightened off the King of the Nagas — shouted along the currents "Olcott
                > has raised the very devil again! . . . The Englishmen are going crazy. . .
                > . Koot Hoomi, come quicker and help me!" — and in her excitement forgot
                > she was speaking English. I must say, that the "Old Lady's" telegrams do
                > strike one like stones from a catapult! "
                > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm
                >
                > Only 10-20 years later there was still a Russian plot brewing....
                >
                > Alexander Berzin's website says ---- :
                > "For example, in 1893, the Buryat Mongol physician Piotr Badmaev submitted
                > a plan to Czar Alexander III for bringing parts of the Qing Empire under
                > Russian sway, including Outer and Inner Mongolia and Tibet. He proposed
                > extending the Trans-Siberian Railway from the Buryat homeland at Lake
                > Baikal through Outer and Inner Mongolia to Gansu, China, next to the
                > Tibetan border. When completed, he would organize, with Buryat help, an
                > uprising in Tibet that would allow Russia to annex the country. Badmaev
                > also proposed establishing a Russian trading company in Asia. Count Sergei
                > Yulgevich Witte, Russian Finance Minister from 1882 to 1903, supported
                > Badmaev’s two plans, but Czar Alexander accepted neither of them."
                > .......
                > "Dorjiev and Czar Nicholas II
                > The Buryat Mongol monk Agvan Dorjiev (1854-1938) studied in Lhasa Tibet
                > from 1880 and eventually became one of the Master Debate Partners
                > (Assistant Tutors) of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama. He also became the Dalai
                > Lama’s most trusted political advisor.
                > The Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1890 had established Sikkim as a British
                > protectorate. The Tibetans did not acknowledge the convention, and were
                > uncomfortable with both British and Chinese designs on their country.
                > Thus, in 1899, Dorjiev visited Russia to see if he could secure help to
                > counter these threats. Dorjiev was a friend of Badmaev and hoped that
                > Russia’s expansionist policy in Northeast Asia at the expense of China
                > would extend to the Himalayan region. Count Witte received him on this and
                > his next several visits. On behalf of the Buryat and Kalmyk Mongols living
                > in St. Petersburg, Dorjiev also petitioned permission for building a
                > Kalachakra temple there. Although the Russian authorities were not
                > interested in either proposal, Dorjiev sent a letter to the Dalai Lama
                > reporting that the prospects for assistance looked hopeful.
                >
                > At first, the Dalai Lama and his ministers were hesitant but, on his
                > return to Lhasa, Dorjiev convinced the Dalai Lama to turn to Russia for
                > protection. He argued that Russia was the Northern Kingdom of Shambhala,
                > the legendary land that safeguarded the Kalachakra teachings, and that
                > Czar Nicholas II was the incarnation of Tsongkhapa, the founder of the
                > Gelug tradition. As evidence, he pointed to the Czar’s protection of the
                > Gelug tradition among the Buryats, Kalmyks, Tuvinian Turks in the Russian
                > Empire. Swayed by his argument, the Dalai Lama dispatched him back to
                > Russia in 1900."
                > http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/russian_japanese_shambhala.html?query=Panchen+Lama
                >
                > The Panchen Lama is the spiritual head of the Gelugpa Buddhists. The Dalai
                > Lama is merely their political and administrative head. The Dalai Lama
                > institution is a - later invention - and there was originally not a
                > political institution in the Gelugpa Tradition. The Occultists and
                > Esotericist do most often not meddle directly in politics - but may in
                > times of crisis intervene and seek to propose helpful activities. We make
                > no unwilling slaves...and seek to avoid Psychological Conditioning or
                > Coerceing the individual by political legislations on a piece of paper (a
                > man made Law of Karma - called altruism) - and by the use of weapons,
                > police, wallet laywers, and judges. - You may correct me if I am wrong.
                >
                > ADEPTS AND POLITICS (see primarily Editors Note)
                > "Neither the Tibetan nor the modern Hindu Mahatmas for the matter of that,
                > ever meddle with politics, though they may bring their influence to bear
                > upon more than one momentous question in the history of a nation—their
                > mother country especially. "
                > .......
                > "If any Adepts have influenced Washington or brought about the great
                > American Revolution, it was not the “Tibetan Mahatmas” at any rate; for
                > these have never shown much sympathy with the Pelings of whatever Western
                > race, except as forming a part of Humanity in general."
                > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v6/y1883_167.htm
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > M. Sufilight


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • proto37
                Master Rakocziwho - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.) - jake j.
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 28, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                  - jake j.

                  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.
                  >
                  >
                • Jeremy Condick
                  The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the great Brotherhood. He
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 29, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.

                    "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.

                    "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.

                    "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names�as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.

                    "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
                    books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...

                    books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                    The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...

                    "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.

                    "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.

                    "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince R�k�czy.... Any connection with the House of R�k�czy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.

                    "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.

                    "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.




                    > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: hozro@...
                    > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                    > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev


                    > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                    > - jake j.


                    > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • proto37
                    All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it. -
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
                      - jake j.

                      --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                      >
                      > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                      >
                      > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
                      >
                      > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                      >
                      > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
                      > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                      >
                      > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                      > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
                      >
                      > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                      >
                      > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                      >
                      > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince Rákóczy.... Any connection with the House of Rákóczy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                      >
                      > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                      >
                      > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > From: hozro@...
                      > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                      > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                      >
                      >
                      > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                      > > - jake j.
                      >
                      >
                      > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Jeremy Condick
                      Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC. ... [Non-text
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



                        > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: hozro@...
                        > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                        > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                        >
                        > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
                        > - jake j.
                        >
                        > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                        > >
                        > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                        > >
                        > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
                        > >
                        > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names�as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                        > >
                        > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
                        > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                        > >
                        > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                        > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
                        > >
                        > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                        > >
                        > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                        > >
                        > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince R�k�czy.... Any connection with the House of R�k�czy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                        > >
                        > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                        > >
                        > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > From: hozro@...
                        > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                        > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                        > > > - jake j.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the veil, that is. JPC.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • M. Sufilight
                        A few views... I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy. Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the relevancy of your views... M.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A few views...

                          I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
                          Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
                          relevancy of your views...


                          M. Sufilight

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                          To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
                          Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



                          Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
                          denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



                          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: hozro@...
                          > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                          > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                          >
                          > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
                          > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes
                          > books on it.
                          > - jake j.
                          >
                          > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time
                          > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
                          > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
                          > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
                          > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                          > >
                          > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
                          > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to
                          > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
                          > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
                          > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                          > >
                          > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
                          > > birth." BCW III 123.
                          > >
                          > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
                          > > capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare,
                          > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
                          > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as
                          > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                          > >
                          > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real
                          > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of
                          > > that royal and unhappy line ...
                          > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                          > >
                          > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 -
                          > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                          > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
                          > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
                          > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
                          > >
                          > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable
                          > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
                          > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have
                          > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17
                          > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                          > >
                          > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development
                          > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
                          > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home
                          > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at
                          > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
                          > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
                          > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and
                          > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
                          > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
                          > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
                          > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard,
                          > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
                          > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of
                          > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
                          > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
                          > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
                          > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
                          > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
                          > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge,
                          > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the
                          > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
                          > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great
                          > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
                          > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                          > >
                          > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
                          > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer
                          > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
                          > > Rבkףczy.... Any connection with the House of Rבkףczy on the part of
                          > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
                          > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea
                          > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
                          > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
                          > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
                          > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to
                          > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
                          > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected
                          > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                          > >
                          > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
                          > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                          > >
                          > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
                          > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > From: hozro@...
                          > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                          > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student
                          > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                          > > > - jake j.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count
                          > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent
                          > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of
                          > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
                          > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Jeremy Condick
                          Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn t long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of world
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn't long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of world problems, military expansion, for the police system, weapons/arms industry etc.

                            You also stated that AAB 'circles' promote these world problems, and that "Being a well meaning person does not remove these simple facts". Making things up to suit your prejudice is no excuse to create opportunity for condemnation or attack of Alice Bailey.

                            There is certainly no relevancy to any of it, just pretentious ignorance and fairy tails. JPC.




                            > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: global-theosophy@...
                            > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:18:26 +0100
                            > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                            >
                            > A few views...
                            >
                            > I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
                            > Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
                            > relevancy of your views...
                            >
                            >
                            > M. Sufilight
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                            > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
                            > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                            >
                            >
                            > Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
                            > denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: hozro@...
                            > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                            > > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
                            > > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes
                            > > books on it.
                            > > - jake j.
                            > >
                            > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time
                            > > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
                            > > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
                            > > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
                            > > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                            > > >
                            > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
                            > > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to
                            > > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
                            > > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
                            > > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                            > > >
                            > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
                            > > > birth." BCW III 123.
                            > > >
                            > > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
                            > > > capitals, under various names�as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare,
                            > > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
                            > > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as
                            > > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                            > > >
                            > > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real
                            > > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of
                            > > > that royal and unhappy line ...
                            > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                            > > >
                            > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 -
                            > > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                            > > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
                            > > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
                            > > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
                            > > >
                            > > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable
                            > > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
                            > > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have
                            > > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17
                            > > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                            > > >
                            > > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development
                            > > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
                            > > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home
                            > > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at
                            > > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
                            > > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
                            > > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and
                            > > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
                            > > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
                            > > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
                            > > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard,
                            > > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
                            > > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of
                            > > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
                            > > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
                            > > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
                            > > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
                            > > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
                            > > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge,
                            > > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the
                            > > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
                            > > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great
                            > > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
                            > > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                            > > >
                            > > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
                            > > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer
                            > > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
                            > > > R�k�czy.... Any connection with the House of R�k�czy on the part of
                            > > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
                            > > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea
                            > > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
                            > > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
                            > > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
                            > > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to
                            > > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
                            > > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected
                            > > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                            > > >
                            > > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
                            > > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                            > > >
                            > > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
                            > > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > From: hozro@...
                            > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                            > > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student
                            > > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                            > > > > - jake j.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by Count
                            > > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the magnificent
                            > > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle of
                            > > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
                            > > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • M. Sufilight
                            Dear Jeremy My views are: I think, that we can agree upon, that the perception is in the eye of the beholder. What by you - apperently - were perceived as
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Jeremy

                              My views are:

                              I think, that we can agree upon, that the perception is in the eye of the
                              beholder.
                              What by you - apperently - were perceived as condemnation a few weeks back -
                              was forwarded by me seeking the truth out of compassion - using -
                              comparative studying between Alice A. Bailey's writings - and others,
                              Blavatsky's included...as well as various kinds of documentation...I do
                              certainly not comden Alice A. Bailey or anyone else. But I merely disagree,
                              especially when people forward obvious lies - which can be documented. I
                              certainly respect parts of Alice A. Bailey writings - even if you might
                              perceive it differetly.
                              I find such an activity on my part to be different than merely throwing
                              negativity on something, without explaining the value of compassion in such
                              an activity. But, in general we seldom find two persons who agrees on
                              everything in this world of duality. I find that this also is a fact, we
                              need to be aware of.
                              Some people like comparative studying others do not. (The Theosophical
                              Society had the aim of comparative studying...Som later theosophical related
                              gorups avoid it at any cost...it seems.) And some - despise any kind of
                              criticism of their beloved Guru, despite the crictism forwarded is backed by
                              solid documentation (but what is solid?) - seeking the truth and seeking to
                              forward compassion - and not lies. Lies like for instance - the prevalent
                              idea that D.K. wrote large parts of Blavatsky's book the Secret Doctrine -
                              as claimed by Alice A. Bailey and many fololowers of these books. A lie
                              because documentation shows it to be a false claim.

                              I do certainly respect your views even if I disagree with you. And I think
                              you should know that, even if the documentation I have forwarded showing
                              various inconsistencies between Alice A. Bailey's writings - and Blavatsky's
                              mught hurt you - own agenda.

                              Since I respect the Law of Karma - to the best of my abillities - I never
                              fall so low as to become a Christian or similar and comdemn others as you
                              claim about me. I merely disagree in a friendly wellmeant manner. That is
                              all. Please - try to rephrase your views - if you meant something else.

                              All the above was written seeking to be helpful - and - Jeremy not seeking
                              to comdemn.

                              Sometimes, we simply have to agree on that we disagree about various issues.
                              I think however that we both agree upon that the Law of Karma is a reality
                              and reincarnation as well. And the 7-fold organisation of this part of our
                              universe related to the planet Earth and other issues. And that we agree
                              upon that one seek to avoid sectarianism and cult behavior - and also avoid
                              telling people that an organisation is non-sectarian when the opposite in
                              fact is the truth about the matter. I do not fanatically forward these
                              views - I merely present them, so to see if all of us can arrive at a better
                              view on the meaning of life, compassion, wisdom etc. - and for instance also
                              even a better view on Alice A. Bailey's writings. I am always open for such
                              ideas.
                              So I suggest that we do not make a mountain out of the views were we differ
                              and forget the views where we agree. Yet, where people in general differ in
                              views, cannot be called unimportant - I simply refuse to be emotional about
                              disagreements - and call them condemnations. I do hope that is all right
                              with you?

                              Alle the above are just mky views. I might be in error, and I galdly welcome
                              other views, so that we can help each other promote altruism.


                              M. Sufilight

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                              To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:36 AM
                              Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



                              Morton, you are no better so spare the pretend conciliatory tone. It wasn't
                              long ago you were condemning Alice Bailey and all students of all sorts of
                              world problems, military expansion, for the police system, weapons/arms
                              industry etc.

                              You also stated that AAB 'circles' promote these world problems, and that
                              "Being a well meaning person does not remove these simple facts". Making
                              things up to suit your prejudice is no excuse to create opportunity for
                              condemnation or attack of Alice Bailey.

                              There is certainly no relevancy to any of it, just pretentious ignorance and
                              fairy tails. JPC.




                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: global-theosophy@...
                              > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:18:26 +0100
                              > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              >
                              > A few views...
                              >
                              > I tend to agree with you on this Jeremy.
                              > Come on ligthen up a little Jake .... seek to at least formulate...the
                              > relevancy of your views...
                              >
                              >
                              > M. Sufilight
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                              > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:32 PM
                              > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              >
                              >
                              > Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and
                              > denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > From: hozro@...
                              > > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                              > > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her
                              > > waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should
                              > > writes
                              > > books on it.
                              > > - jake j.
                              > >
                              > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this
                              > > > time
                              > > > in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great
                              > > > Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements
                              > > > including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise
                              > > > on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain
                              > > > documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key
                              > > > to
                              > > > more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that
                              > > > these documents would become the secret heritage of all those
                              > > > descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by
                              > > > birth." BCW III 123.
                              > > >
                              > > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European
                              > > > capitals, under various names—as Marquis de Montferrat; Count
                              > > > Bellamare,
                              > > > at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan;
                              > > > Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally,
                              > > > as
                              > > > Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                              > > >
                              > > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his
                              > > > real
                              > > > name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last
                              > > > of
                              > > > that royal and unhappy line ...
                              > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                              > > >
                              > > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley -
                              > > > 1997 -
                              > > > Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                              > > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as
                              > > > possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to
                              > > > dine at the Prince's table, ...
                              > > >
                              > > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the
                              > > > remarkable
                              > > > personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the
                              > > > book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I
                              > > > have
                              > > > read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40
                              > > > 17
                              > > > December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future
                              > > > development
                              > > > of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America
                              > > > and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a
                              > > > home
                              > > > in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure
                              > > > at
                              > > > the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical
                              > > > books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the
                              > > > Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon
                              > > > and
                              > > > later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R.
                              > > > takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as
                              > > > Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare
                              > > > controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black
                              > > > beard,
                              > > > and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the
                              > > > Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority
                              > > > of
                              > > > the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master
                              > > > Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial
                              > > > Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and
                              > > > ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto
                              > > > unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various
                              > > > fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the
                              > > > Lodge,
                              > > > usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as
                              > > > the
                              > > > general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive
                              > > > council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three
                              > > > great
                              > > > Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency."
                              > > > Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                              > > >
                              > > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II,
                              > > > whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the
                              > > > writer
                              > > > says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince
                              > > > Rבkףczy.... Any connection with the House of Rבkףczy on the part of
                              > > > Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible
                              > > > historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this
                              > > > idea
                              > > > may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a
                              > > > suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the
                              > > > possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed,
                              > > > subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not
                              > > > to
                              > > > accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at
                              > > > present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence."
                              > > > Collected
                              > > > Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                              > > >
                              > > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a
                              > > > substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                              > > >
                              > > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance,
                              > > > at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > From: hozro@...
                              > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                              > > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers
                              > > > > student
                              > > > > you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                              > > > > - jake j.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > One of course recalls 'let America be free' as peeled forth by
                              > > > > > Count
                              > > > > > St Germain shortly to become Master Rakoczi. Also of the
                              > > > > > magnificent
                              > > > > > courage of HPB shooting the Papists, as a volunteer at the battle
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > Mentana! Moreover, of Lord Ripon and his Councillors, behind the
                              > > > > > veil, that is. JPC.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • proto37
                              Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                Also your BCW III quotes are misleading - they are not Blavatsky's words, but her quoting from a magazine.
                                In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.

                                http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby

                                It matters not a gnats-hair who St. Germain or Count whats his name was to the corpus of Blavatsky's Teachings, which is the purpose of Theosophy.

                                - jake j.

                                >1b. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                                Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:32 pm ((PST))



                                >Thats quite a contempt you have there, Jake. Baseless personal bias and denial of course and certainly not considerate of occultism. JPC.



                                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: hozro@...
                                > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:50:58 +0000
                                > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                >
                                > All this is worth about as much as Alice Bailey got for a tip in her waitressing job. It would make a good fairy-tale though, she should writes books on it.
                                > - jake j.
                                >
                                > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Condick <jpcondick2011@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > "The Master R. or Rakoczi, is the Hungarian Master, living at this time in Hungary, and is the Regent of Europe and America, under the "great Brotherhood." He works through various organizations and movements including Masonry. He is one of the Masters who take pupils." Treatise on Cosmic Fire. 457. AAB.
                                > >
                                > > "The Count de Saint-Germain left in the hands of this Mason certain documents relating to the history of masonry, and containing the key to more than one misunderstood mystery. He did so on the condition that these documents would become the secret heritage of all those descendants of the Kabbalists who became Masons." BCW XI 184.
                                > >
                                > > "The Count de Saint-Germain, is supposed to have been an Hungarian by birth." BCW III 123.
                                > >
                                > > "From time to time this strange being appeared in various European capitals, under various names?as Marquis de Montferrat; Count Bellamare, at Venice; Chevalier Schoening, at Pisa; Chevalier Weldon, at Milan; Count Saltikoff, at Genoa; Count Tzarogy, at Schwabach; and, finally, as Count de Saint-Germain." COUNT DE SAINT-GERMAIN 127. BCW III.
                                > >
                                > > "He then went under the name of Count Tzarogy, under which that his real name was Prince Rakoczy, prior to the confession that he was the last of that royal and unhappy line ...
                                > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0787300950...
                                > >
                                > > books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0766101010...Isabel Cooper-Oakley - 1997 - Biography & Autobiography - 256 pages
                                > > The Graf Tzarogy had no servant of his own ; he dined as simply as possible in his ... It was impossible to persuade the Graf Tzarogy to dine at the Prince's table, ...
                                > >
                                > > "I certainly would not publish fragmentary details about the remarkable personality of Comte Saint-Germain; better to translate completely the book by Cooper-Oakley. I consider this work the best among those I have read about Saint Germain." LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH VOL II P 266 40 17 December 1936. Cooper-Oakley book c1912. See also BCW III Gloss.
                                > >
                                > > "The Master who concerns himself especially with the future development of racial affairs in Europe, and with the mental outgrowth in America and Australia, is the Master Rakoczi. He is a Hungarian, and has a home in the Carpathian mountains, and was at one time a well-known figure at the Hungarian Court. Reference to him can be found in old historical books, and he was particularly before the public eye when he was the Comte de St. Germain, and earlier still when he was both Roger Bacon and later, Francis Bacon. It is interesting to note that as the Master R. takes hold, on the inner planes, of affairs in Europe, his name as Francis Bacon is coming before the public eye in the Bacon-Shakespeare controversy. He is rather a small, spare man, with pointed black beard, and smooth black hair, and does not take as many pupils as do the Masters previously mentioned. He is at present handling the majority of the third ray pupils in the occident in conjunction with the Master Hilarion. The Master R. is upon the seventh Ray, that of Ceremonial Magic or Order, and he works largely through esoteric ritual and ceremonial, being vitally interested in the effects, hitherto unrecognized, of the ceremonial of the Freemasons, of the various fraternities and of the Churches everywhere. He is called in the Lodge, usually, "the Count," and in America and Europe acts Practically as the general manager for the carrying out of the plans of the executive council of the Lodge. Certain of the Masters form around the three great Lords an inner group, and meet in council with great frequency." Initiation Human and Solar. 59. c1920.
                                > >
                                > > "In a letter written by Count von Alvensleben to Emperor Frederick II, whose ambassador he was at Dresden, and dated June 25, 1777, the writer says that Count de Saint-Germain told him that he was known as Prince Rákóczy.... Any connection with the House of Rákóczy on the part of Count de Saint-Germain cannot be established by any accessible historical data or available documentary evidence, even though this idea may appeal to the imagination of certain students and serve as a suitable background for their speculations. We do not deny the possibility of such a connection, which may or may not have existed, subject to future disclosures. We simply warn the careful student not to accept on mere hearsay, alleged facts which, in reality, cannot be at present either proved or disproved by any tangible evidence." Collected Writings VOLUME III. GENERAL BIBLIOGRAPHY.
                                > >
                                > > "There exists the grave of Comte Saint-Germain, but, in fact, a substitute body is buried there." Letters Helena Roerich. II 219.
                                > >
                                > > "In some cases, a substitute would be buried, as it was, for instance, at the departure of Master R." Letters Helena Roerich. II 372.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > From: hozro@...
                                > > > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:16:15 +0000
                                > > > Subject: theos-talk Re:off topic-- Lama Dorgiev
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > "Master Rakocziwho" - this is Bailey Crapola. Some Carrithers student you are, he would turn over in his grave (or funery urn.)
                                > > > - jake j.

                                ------------------
                              • Jeremy Condick
                                ... Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the Tibetan consider the scheme of evolution offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 31, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.

                                  > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - jake j.


                                  "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                  offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                  the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                  "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                  In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                  to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                  322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                  help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                  characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                  Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.

                                  JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.

                                  Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.

                                  "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                                  JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.

                                  "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.

                                  Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.

                                  Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.

                                  "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jeremy Condick
                                  JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 1, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.

                                    "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.

                                    "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.

                                    JPC comments upon the following:
                                    "Comments by the Compiler
                                    1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                                    the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                                    The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                                    adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                                    2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                                    specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                                    See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                                    Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                                    appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                                    of K.H. about to "graduate".
                                    3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                                    appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                                    However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                                    disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                    A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                                    JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.

                                    "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.

                                    "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.

                                    JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.

                                    JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.

                                    "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.




                                    > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                    > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                    > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                    >
                                    > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > - jake j.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                    > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                    > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                    > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                    > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                    > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                    > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                    > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                    > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                    > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                                    >
                                    > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                                    >
                                    > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                                    >
                                    > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                    >
                                    > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                                    >
                                    > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                                    >
                                    > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                                    >
                                    > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                                    >
                                    > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jeremy Condick
                                    ... NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE - By Basil Crump Introductory Postulates These are stated to be extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 3, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- 7
                                      NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                      - By Basil Crump
                                      Introductory Postulates
                                      These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                      Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                      Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                      Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                      Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                      of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                      "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."

                                      The reader is constantly referred
                                      to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                      "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                      is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                      whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                      designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                      mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                      little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                      and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                      same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                      It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                      and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                      Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                      A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                                      JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.

                                      This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.

                                      Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.

                                      HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.

                                      "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.

                                      "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.

                                      "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.

                                      "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                                      "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.

                                      "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                      soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.

                                      "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                      value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                      hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                      July, 1881, p. 218.



                                      JPC.



                                      > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                      > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                                      > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                                      >
                                      > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                                      >
                                      > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                                      >
                                      > JPC comments upon the following:
                                      > "Comments by the Compiler
                                      > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                                      > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                                      > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                                      > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                                      > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                                      > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                                      > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                                      > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                                      > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                                      > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                                      > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                                      > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                                      > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                                      > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                      > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                      >
                                      > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                                      >
                                      > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                                      >
                                      > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                                      >
                                      > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                                      >
                                      > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                                      >
                                      > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                      > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                      > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                      > >
                                      > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > - jake j.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                      > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                      > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                      > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                      > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                      > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                      > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                      > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                      > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                      > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                                      > >
                                      > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                                      > >
                                      > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                                      > >
                                      > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                      > >
                                      > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                                      > >
                                      > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                                      > >
                                      > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                                      > >
                                      > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jeremy Condick
                                      ... NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE - By Basil Crump ...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own... Also Seven centres of Logoic
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- 7
                                        NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                        - By Basil Crump
                                        "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                                        Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                                        "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                                        to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                        "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                        is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                        whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                        designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                        mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                        little or nothing and leads nowhere." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                        A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.

                                        JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.

                                        She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".

                                        Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.

                                        "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.

                                        "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.

                                        "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.

                                        "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.

                                        "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.

                                        "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.

                                        "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.

                                        "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.

                                        "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                                        1. Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                                        2. They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                                        3. They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                                        4. They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                                        They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                                        They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                                        They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                                        5. In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                                        6. They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                                        7. They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                                        8. They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                                        9. They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                                        10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                                        11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                                        12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                                        13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                                        14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                                        15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.

                                        "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.

                                        "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.

                                        "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.

                                        "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.

                                        "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.

                                        "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.

                                        "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.



                                        > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                        > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                                        > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- 7
                                        > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                        > - By Basil Crump
                                        > Introductory Postulates
                                        > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                        > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                        > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                        > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                        > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                        > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                        > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                                        >
                                        > The reader is constantly referred
                                        > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                        > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                        > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                        > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                        > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                        > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                        > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                        > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                        > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                        > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                        > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                        > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                        > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                        >
                                        > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                                        >
                                        > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                                        >
                                        > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                                        >
                                        > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                                        >
                                        > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                                        >
                                        > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                                        >
                                        > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                                        >
                                        > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                        >
                                        > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                                        >
                                        > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                        > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                                        >
                                        > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                        > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                        > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                        > July, 1881, p. 218.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > JPC.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                        > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                                        > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                                        > >
                                        > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                                        > >
                                        > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                                        > >
                                        > > JPC comments upon the following:
                                        > > "Comments by the Compiler
                                        > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                                        > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                                        > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                                        > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                                        > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                                        > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                                        > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                                        > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                                        > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                                        > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                                        > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                                        > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                                        > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                                        > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                        > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                        > >
                                        > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                                        > >
                                        > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                                        > >
                                        > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                                        > >
                                        > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                                        > >
                                        > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                                        > >
                                        > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                        > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                        > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > - jake j.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                        > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                        > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                        > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                        > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                        > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                        > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                        > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                        > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                        > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Augoeides-222@comcast.net
                                        Jeremy, all, I don t remember who  posted that DK was nick named The Tibetan but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Jeremy, all,

                                          I don't remember who  posted that DK was nick named "The Tibetan" but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the C zar' s, concurrent with time Madame Blavatsky was alive and it is a synchronicity the Badmaev was also affectionatel y nick named "The Tibetan". It seems the nick name travels a bit huh?



                                          Also my own personal view while not having a horse in the race in regard to true or false, right or wrong doctrines let me post a couple of links in order that some air may be cleared as to earlier origins of Madame Blavatsky's wonderful works that reveal very nice correspondents with what she wrote as incomplete as she states, this does not in my view mean did ont previous y exist or had been taught in fuller contents. There are I ave found several sources of the far past in the East that had famous revered Teachings that due to the reality of Metaphysics being the statement of Higher Intrinsic unasail able Transcendental or Cosmological First Princip als alwa s are found in true Teachings. Here are only two links which if read with open mind and compared to Blavatsky on e will find the framework of similar outline of Doctrine. This is only one example from one older Paradigma, other like Buddhism are also very similar.

                                             There is not always aligment of present day views to the Parents who gifted mankind these to the western peoples obscure thought forms, like the 4 stages of the Buddhist Arhat, the Stream Swimmers, there are also 4 stages of Nirvana. And the higher Arhat has arrived to begin qualification as Bodhisattva rather that outright Buddhahood notwithstanding that we all are inherently buddha Principal possessing indexed to the apparency of location in a manisfested projection of a secondary universe.



                                          Five Acts of Siva' --- Tirumantirum



                                          >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TIRUMANTIRAM-TMTM04.htm<<<



                                          The Stem Substance ---- Akasha



                                          >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/POTPOURRI.htm<<<



                                          As mentioned earlier in a members post a full complete discursive ancient vocabulary and text was not provided in order that understanding may be completed, spite not thy parents in their old age, they sti ll can instruct.



                                          Regards,

                                          John

                                          ----- Original Message -----


                                          From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                                          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:13:58 PM
                                          Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



                                          --- 7
                                          NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                          - By Basil Crump
                                          "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                                          Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                                          "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                                          to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                          "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                          is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                          whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                          designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                          mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                          little or nothing and leads nowhere."  Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                          A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.

                                          JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.
                                           
                                          She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".
                                           
                                          Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.
                                           
                                          "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.
                                           
                                          "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.
                                           
                                          "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.
                                           
                                          "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.
                                           
                                          "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.
                                           
                                          "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.
                                           
                                          "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.
                                           
                                          "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.
                                           
                                          "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                                          1.  Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                                          2.  They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                                          3.  They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                                          4.  They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                                           They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                                           They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                                           They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                                          5.  In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                                          6.  They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                                          7.  They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                                          8.  They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                                          9.  They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                                          10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                                          11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                                          12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                                          13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                                          14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                                          15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.
                                           
                                          "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.
                                           
                                          "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.
                                           
                                          "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.
                                           
                                          "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.
                                           
                                          "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.
                                           
                                          "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.
                                           
                                          "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.  

                                           

                                          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                          > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                                          > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- 7
                                          > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                          > - By Basil Crump
                                          > Introductory Postulates
                                          > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                          > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                          > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                          > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                          > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                          > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                          > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                                          >
                                          > The reader is constantly referred
                                          > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                          > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                          > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                          > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                          > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                          > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                          > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                          > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                          > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                          > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                          > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                          > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                          > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                          >
                                          > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                                          >
                                          > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                                          >
                                          > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                                          >
                                          > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                                          >
                                          > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                                          >
                                          > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                                          >
                                          > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                                          >
                                          > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                          >
                                          > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                                          >
                                          > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                          > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                                          >
                                          > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                          > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                          > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                          > July, 1881, p. 218.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > JPC.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                          > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                                          > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                                          > >
                                          > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                                          > >
                                          > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                                          > >
                                          > > JPC comments upon the following:
                                          > > "Comments by the Compiler
                                          > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                                          > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                                          > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                                          > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                                          > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                                          > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                                          > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                                          > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                                          > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                                          > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                                          > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                                          > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                                          > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                                          > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                          > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                          > >
                                          > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                                          > >
                                          > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                                          > >
                                          > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                                          > >
                                          > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                                          > >
                                          > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                                          > >
                                          > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                          > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                          > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > - jake j.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                          > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                          > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                          > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                          > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                          > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                          > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                          > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                          > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                          > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                                                                                         

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          ------------------------------------

                                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mark Jaqua
                                          Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming to come from Blavatsky's school.

                                            Do you have any idea how many Bailey type channelers there are with big bunches of books? - dozens, maybe hundreds considering all that didn't "catch on" and disappeared into the past. 'All their followers mesmerized and thinking they are following something really great. None of them, however, come close to comparing to Blavatsky. For one thing, none of them seem to be able to continuous quote and refer to other sources - which Blavatsky does thousands of times (see the 1000 book bibliography in the back of TPH's "Isis Unveiled," for instance - and this just for Isis, let alone all her other books.) Quoting and doing references is just too much work for the channellers (who usually can't even manage to keep making sense). The few Quotes Bailey uses, according to Cleather - are phoney quotes ("different editions" does not hold water" ) - so Good Lord! - how can somebody not be alerted to malfeisance as outrageous and "in your face as this?" Maybe the Bailey entity got a few quotes right too, I don't know.

                                            If Bailey is right for you - then by all means stick with Bailey. I think you should!

                                            As for the SD being incomplete - well of course it is.


                                            -------------
                                            >2a. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                            Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                                            Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:28 pm ((PST))

                                            --- 7
                                            >NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                            - By Basil Crump
                                            >Introductory Postulates
                                            >These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                            Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                            Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                            Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                            Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                            of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                            "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."

                                            >The reader is constantly referred
                                            to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                            "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                            >is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                            whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                            designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                            mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                            little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                            and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                            same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                            >It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                            and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                            Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                            A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.

                                            >JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.

                                            >This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.

                                            >Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.

                                            >HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.

                                            >"Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.

                                            >"It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.

                                            >"It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.

                                            >"One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                                            >"But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.

                                            >"The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                            soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.

                                            >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                            value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                            hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                            July, 1881, p. 218.

                                            >JPC.
                                            ----------------------------
                                            > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                            > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                            > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                            > >
                                            > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > - jake j.
                                            ----------------------



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Jeremy Condick
                                            Excellent, John! Will check out those links. Thanks. JC. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Excellent, John! Will check out those links. Thanks. JC.


                                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              > From: Augoeides-222@...
                                              > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 02:33:19 +0000
                                              > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re:off topic yet revenant
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Jeremy, all,
                                              >
                                              > I don't remember who posted that DK was nick named "The Tibetan" but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the C zar' s, concurrent with time Madame Blavatsky was alive and it is a synchronicity the Badmaev was also affectionatel y nick named "The Tibetan". It seems the nick name travels a bit huh?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Also my own personal view while not having a horse in the race in regard to true or false, right or wrong doctrines let me post a couple of links in order that some air may be cleared as to earlier origins of Madame Blavatsky's wonderful works that reveal very nice correspondents with what she wrote as incomplete as she states, this does not in my view mean did ont previous y exist or had been taught in fuller contents. There are I ave found several sources of the far past in the East that had famous revered Teachings that due to the reality of Metaphysics being the statement of Higher Intrinsic unasail able Transcendental or Cosmological First Princip als alwa s are found in true Teachings. Here are only two links which if read with open mind and compared to Blavatsky on e will find the framework of similar outline of Doctrine. This is only one example from one older Paradigma, other like Buddhism are also very similar.
                                              >
                                              > There is not always aligment of present day views to the Parents who gifted mankind these to the western peoples obscure thought forms, like the 4 stages of the Buddhist Arhat, the Stream Swimmers, there are also 4 stages of Nirvana. And the higher Arhat has arrived to begin qualification as Bodhisattva rather that outright Buddhahood notwithstanding that we all are inherently buddha Principal possessing indexed to the apparency of location in a manisfested projection of a secondary universe.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Five Acts of Siva' --- Tirumantirum
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TIRUMANTIRAM-TMTM04.htm<<<
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The Stem Substance ---- Akasha
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/POTPOURRI.htm<<<
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > As mentioned earlier in a members post a full complete discursive ancient vocabulary and text was not provided in order that understanding may be completed, spite not thy parents in their old age, they sti ll can instruct.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              >
                                              > John
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
                                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:13:58 PM
                                              > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- 7
                                              > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                              > - By Basil Crump
                                              > "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
                                              > Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
                                              > "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
                                              > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                              > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                              > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                              > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                              > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                              > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                              > little or nothing and leads nowhere." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                              > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.
                                              >
                                              > JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.
                                              >
                                              > She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".
                                              >
                                              > Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.
                                              >
                                              > "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.
                                              >
                                              > "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.
                                              >
                                              > "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.
                                              >
                                              > "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.
                                              >
                                              > "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.
                                              >
                                              > "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.
                                              >
                                              > "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.
                                              >
                                              > "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.
                                              >
                                              > "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
                                              > 1. Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
                                              > 2. They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
                                              > 3. They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
                                              > 4. They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
                                              > They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
                                              > They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
                                              > They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
                                              > 5. In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
                                              > 6. They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
                                              > 7. They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
                                              > 8. They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
                                              > 9. They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
                                              > 10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
                                              > 11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
                                              > 12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
                                              > 13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
                                              > 14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
                                              > 15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.
                                              >
                                              > "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.
                                              >
                                              > "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.
                                              >
                                              > "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.
                                              >
                                              > "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.
                                              >
                                              > "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.
                                              >
                                              > "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.
                                              >
                                              > "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                              > > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
                                              > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- 7
                                              > > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                              > > - By Basil Crump
                                              > > Introductory Postulates
                                              > > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                              > > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                              > > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                              > > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                              > > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                              > > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                              > > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                                              > >
                                              > > The reader is constantly referred
                                              > > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                              > > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                              > > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                              > > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                              > > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                              > > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                              > > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                              > > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                              > > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                              > > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                              > > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                              > > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                              > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                              > >
                                              > > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                                              > >
                                              > > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                                              > >
                                              > > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                                              > >
                                              > > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                                              > >
                                              > > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                                              > >
                                              > > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                                              > >
                                              > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                              > >
                                              > > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                                              > >
                                              > > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                              > > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                                              > >
                                              > > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                              > > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                              > > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                              > > July, 1881, p. 218.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > JPC.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                              > > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
                                              > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > JPC comments upon the following:
                                              > > > "Comments by the Compiler
                                              > > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
                                              > > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
                                              > > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
                                              > > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
                                              > > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
                                              > > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
                                              > > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
                                              > > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
                                              > > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
                                              > > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
                                              > > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
                                              > > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
                                              > > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
                                              > > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                              > > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                              > > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                              > > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > - jake j.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
                                              > > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
                                              > > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
                                              > > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
                                              > > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
                                              > > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
                                              > > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
                                              > > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
                                              > > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
                                              > > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Jeremy Condick
                                              ... JC: HPB stated... The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: hozro@...
                                                > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:18:49 -0500
                                                > Subject: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                                >
                                                > Bailey _Has_ to say positive things about Blavatsky because she/they/it is attempting to ride on on her coat-tails. She gets any bonafides she has by claiming to come from Blavatsky's school.

                                                JC: HPB stated... "The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may not fit a meaning, say from the psychological or astronomical aspect, will be found quite correct from the physical or metaphysical." SD2 22.

                                                "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.

                                                "In A Treatise on Cosmic Fire the Tibetan has given us what H. P. Blavatsky prophesied he would give, namely, the psychological key to the Cosmic Creation. H.P.B. stated that in the 20th century a disciple would come who would give the psychological key to her own monumental work The Secret Doctrine on which treatise the Tibetan worked with her; and Alice A. Bailey worked in complete recognition of her own task in this sequence." TCF viii.

                                                JC: There is no claim other than full recognition of this fact and in sequence the second phase or turning of the second psychological key was completed as prophesised by HPB for "Century the Twentieth".


                                                > Do you have any idea how many Bailey type channelers there are with big bunches of books? - dozens, maybe hundreds considering all that didn't "catch on" and disappeared into the past. 'All their followers mesmerized and thinking they are following something really great. None of them, however, come close to comparing to Blavatsky. For one thing, none of them seem to be able to continuous quote and refer to other sources - which Blavatsky does thousands of times (see the 1000 book bibliography in the back of TPH's "Isis Unveiled," for instance - and this just for Isis, let alone all her other books.) Quoting and doing references is just too much work for the channellers (who usually can't even manage to keep making sense). The few Quotes Bailey uses, according to Cleather - are phoney quotes ("different editions" does not hold water" ) - so Good Lord! - how can somebody not be alerted to malfeisance as outrageous and "in your face as this?" Maybe the Bailey entity got a few quotes right too, I don't know.

                                                JC: Your 'Cleather' reference, as a reliable source appears to be quite inadequate so far. I have aimed to show that where the claim of "phoney quotes" as you say appear, I will attempt to show that that it is a false claim. I gave one example in a previous letter. I gave another in my last letter, So far Crump has demonstrated his inability to substantiate that statement. But he and Cleather has highlighted the fact that they do not understand the works of HPB or AAB. The words of Crump on "Seven centres of Logoic Force" being "designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his mind" is falsity and does not stand up to reality of "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739. Be it Logoic or Dhyan-Chohanic for both are the same, the distribution of solar fire through out the centres of the Solar logos and through the heavenly men throughout the system is a part of the teachings given us. It would be wise to study the occult teachings before you copy Cleather and Crump with your claim of "malfeisance". It is offered "as understood" and on a "hypothetical" basis in the least.

                                                > >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                                > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                                > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                                > July, 1881, p. 218.


                                                So the work of TCF explains the greater psychological meaning or revelation of the entities in the works of HPB. What is "phoney" according to you or your earlier detractors, about that. It is an expansion on previous work that complements it and references it and was a direct prediction recorded in the Secret Doctrine by HPB herself. Of course, the below from 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire' is just a fraction and merely serves as a snippet of the expansive work on the psychological nature of the entities of the solar system and Universe. Immediately below we see a SD quote referenced by AAB. From the edition I have of SD it is wrongly numbered but appears on page 107 rather than 132.

                                                HPB informs she brought the first completely 'Physical or physiological key' and much historical information with the later deeper psychological elucidation coming via AAB that "disciple far better fitted" according to HPB. That second key expands on the psychological entities and seven rays throughout her books and "Treatise on the Seven rays". It is indication of prediction and occurance in factuality.

                                                To give an example reference quote in brief composition from TCF you claim phony. "12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132." TCF 273.

                                                "The Mind-born Sons, the Rishis, the Builders, etc., were all men -- of whatever forms and shapes -- in other worlds and the preceding Manvantaras.
                                                This subject, being so very mystical, is therefore the most difficult to explain in all its details and bearings; since the whole mystery of evolutionary creation is contained in it." SD1 107.


                                                "These three aspects of God, the solar Logos, and the Central Energy or Force (for the terms are occultly synonymous) demonstrate through seven centers of force, - three major centers and four minor. These seven centers of logoic Force are themselves so constituted that they form corporate Entities. They are known as
                                                * The seven planetary Logoi.
                                                * The seven Spirits before the Throne.
                                                * The seven Rays.
                                                * The seven Heavenly Men.
                                                The Seven Logoi embody seven types of differentiated force, and in this Treatise are known under the names of Lords of the Rays. The names of the Rays are

                                                * Ray I - Ray of Will or Power - 1st Aspect
                                                * Ray II - Ray of Love-Wisdom - 2nd Aspect
                                                * Ray III - Ray of Active Intelligence - 3rd Aspect
                                                (These are the major Rays.)
                                                * Ray IV - Ray of Harmony, Beauty and Art.
                                                * Ray V - Ray of Concrete Knowledge or Science.
                                                * Ray VI - Ray of Devotion or of Abstract Idealism.
                                                * Ray VII - Ray of Ceremonial Magic or Order." TCF 5.

                                                "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.

                                                "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.

                                                "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.

                                                "* ...The center or Heavenly Man with Whom the Logos of their scheme is allied;
                                                * Which two schemes form, with their own, a triangle for logoic force at a certain stage of evolutionary development;
                                                * The secret of the cycles, or the periods of stimulation or obscuration;
                                                then will the body logoic begin to achieve its purpose; then will the Logos of our system begin to blend and merge and coordinate all His vehicles; then will the force flow through all the centers unimpeded; and then will the glory shine out, and each cell in every body - logoic, planetary, deva and human, blaze forth with perfected glory, vibrate with adjusted accuracy, and a major cosmic initiation be taken." TCF 360. AAB.



                                                >
                                                > If Bailey is right for you - then by all means stick with Bailey. I think you should!
                                                >
                                                > As for the SD being incomplete - well of course it is.


                                                > -------------
                                                > >2a. Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                                > Posted by: "Jeremy Condick" jpcondick2011@... logos_endless_summers
                                                > Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:28 pm ((PST))
                                                >
                                                > --- 7
                                                > >NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
                                                > - By Basil Crump
                                                > >Introductory Postulates
                                                > >These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
                                                > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
                                                > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
                                                > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
                                                > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
                                                > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
                                                > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
                                                >
                                                > >The reader is constantly referred
                                                > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
                                                > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
                                                > >is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
                                                > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
                                                > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
                                                > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
                                                > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
                                                > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
                                                > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
                                                > >It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
                                                > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
                                                > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
                                                > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
                                                >
                                                > >JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
                                                >
                                                > >This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
                                                >
                                                > >Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
                                                >
                                                > >HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
                                                >
                                                > >"Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
                                                >
                                                > >"It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
                                                >
                                                > >"It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
                                                >
                                                > >"One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
                                                >
                                                > >"But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
                                                >
                                                > >"The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
                                                > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
                                                >
                                                > >"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
                                                > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
                                                > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
                                                > July, 1881, p. 218.
                                                >
                                                > >JPC.
                                                > ----------------------------
                                                > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
                                                > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
                                                > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > - jake j.



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.